Resource Monotype SM Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just a quick nomination:

Celesteela: A ----> S

I don't honestly know why this thing isnt S ranked yet. For starters, this monster puts tremendous pressure on almost any ground build. ive been on the recieving end of this thing and no matter what set it uses its a massive pain in my backside. assault vest especially being the worst. Can't set gravity without taking an hp ice and losing landorus, and no other mon can really force it out 1v1 unless gravity is up or unless i specifically cteam this one mon. which just limits which sets i can use on what.

This thing also helps in the steel vs steel matchups as it can carry flamethrower/fire blast and/or Earthquake. which can force out every mon on steel if heatrans balloon is popped.

It just in general helps steel out by being a special mon to complement skarmory/heatran as well as being capable of being more offensive as to be a great ground immunity for HO steels.

It eats hits from things that normally trouble steel like, greninja, landorus i and landorus t, and hydreigon and is able to deal either massive damage, or just ohko it outright. Id highly recommend a jump for this thing

sorry if this is sloppy, its a bit rushed but i just had to get my thoughts out.
I can see some issues with your reasoning. Before I get started, it would be more convenient if you specified at the beginning which type you want it in S rank for, because the whole first paragraph of your post is left up to interpretation, which at times leads to misunderstanding.

Regarding the Ground matchup, it's definitely true that Ground teams do get pressured often by Celesteela sets of just about any variant. However, Ground teams still have their fair share of effective countermeasures in Mega Garchomp, possibly Firium Z Garchomp on SD sets, Choice Band Mamoswine, all of which while unable to OHKO are still able to wear it down effectively:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 222-262 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Sand: 169-199 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 254-300 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(at +2 it guarantees a OHKO)

These Pokemon are also able to place pressure on any potential switch ins, with Mega Garchomp in sand having no safe switch ins, and nothing on Steel openly wanting to switch into a potential Choice Banded Superpower from Mamoswine(Skarmory has a chance of being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock if Mamoswine chooses to Icicle Crash). But I do suppose that Heatran could make Garchomp use up its Z-Move. Even with that being said, these are still decent ways for Ground to deal with Celesteela outside of Gravity, and I wouldn't call this limiting at all. In a potential Steel v Steel matchup, Celesteela, while having no particular switch ins, will still be trapped and removed by Specs Magnezone a lot of the time after Stealth Rock to Assault Vested sets:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 192 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 302-356 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Regarding the things that it can "eat hits" from, it'll only be safely switching into Life Orb Greninja's HP Fire once before it gets taken out. The same applies to Landorus a lot of the time. And it definitely won't be appreciating a Life Orb/Choice Specs Fire Blast from Hydreigon. I do understand that this was rushed, and I usually make this mistake too, but I do hope that your next nomination will go further in detail and perhaps bring up more relevant reasons as to why a specific Pokemon should rise a rank, especially for S ranks.
 
Just a quick nomination:

Celesteela: A ----> S
edit: for steel

I don't honestly know why this thing isnt S ranked yet. For starters, this monster puts tremendous pressure on almost any ground build. ive been on the recieving end of this thing and no matter what set it uses its a massive pain in my backside. assault vest especially being the worst. Can't set gravity without taking an hp ice and losing landorus, and no other mon can really force it out 1v1 unless gravity is up or unless i specifically cteam this one mon. which just limits which sets i can use on what.

This thing also helps in the steel vs steel matchups as it can carry flamethrower/fire blast and/or Earthquake. which can force out every mon on steel if heatrans balloon is popped.

It just in general helps steel out by being a special mon to complement skarmory/heatran as well as being capable of being more offensive as to be a great ground immunity for HO steels.

It eats hits from things that normally trouble steel like, greninja, landorus i and landorus t, and hydreigon and is able to deal either massive damage, or just ohko it outright. Id highly recommend a jump for this thing

sorry if this is sloppy, its a bit rushed but i just had to get my thoughts out.
Hey while I do agree with your nomination, you should definitely have a more thorough post when nomination a pokemon to S rank. There should be relevant calcs, sample sets, and analysis of the pokemon on the selective type to prove that it is indeed a staple on the type. What you have right now proves nothing to no one, and I definitely think you should try to put more detail in order to get your point across!

I can see some issues with your reasoning. Before I get started, it would be more convenient if you specified at the beginning which type you want it in S rank for, because the whole first paragraph of your post is left up to interpretation, which at times leads to misunderstanding.

Regarding the Ground matchup, it's definitely true that Ground teams do get pressured often by Celesteela sets of just about any variant. However, Ground teams still have their fair share of effective countermeasures in Mega Garchomp, possibly Firium Z Garchomp on SD sets, Choice Band Mamoswine, all of which while unable to OHKO are still able to wear it down effectively:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 222-262 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela in Sand: 169-199 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Inferno Overdrive (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 254-300 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(at +2 it guarantees a OHKO)

These Pokemon are also able to place pressure on any potential switch ins, with Mega Garchomp in sand having no safe switch ins, and nothing on Steel openly wanting to switch into a potential Choice Banded Superpower from Mamoswine(Skarmory has a chance of being 2HKOed after Stealth Rock if Mamoswine chooses to Icicle Crash). But I do suppose that Heatran could make Garchomp use up its Z-Move. Even with that being said, these are still decent ways for Ground to deal with Celesteela outside of Gravity, and I wouldn't call this limiting at all. In a potential Steel v Steel matchup, Celesteela, while having no particular switch ins, will still be trapped and removed by Specs Magnezone a lot of the time after Stealth Rock to Assault Vested sets:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 192 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Celesteela: 302-356 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Regarding the things that it can "eat hits" from, it'll only be safely switching into Life Orb Greninja's HP Fire once before it gets taken out. The same applies to Landorus a lot of the time. And it definitely won't be appreciating a Life Orb/Choice Specs Fire Blast from Hydreigon. I do understand that this was rushed, and I usually make this mistake too, but I do hope that your next nomination will go further in detail and perhaps bring up more relevant reasons as to why a specific Pokemon should rise a rank, especially for S ranks.
I don't understand the point of your post. While I get you wanted to tell him to have more details, the point of your post is kind of irrelevant. You bring up points on how grund can check Celesteela, but ofcourse it can... That wasn't an argument in the first place. The point was that celesteela puts lots of pressure on ground, which is a troubling matchup. Also ofcourse specs trap magnezone is a threat to Celesteela, it doesn't take away from the fact that celesteela can still put in work in the matchup.
 

Cradily (Rock): A ====> B
Hi all, Time to put up something that has been on my mind for a while:
Cradily as it stands for rock teams is sitting a little too passive for a typing that already has 1 massive momentum sink that is almost mandatory within its ranks (shuckle). Rock as a type has arguably the worst defensive typing in the game, and cradily, while useful with its amazing ability storm drain, doesnt shore up a ton of rocks problems outside of Water, electric and normal moves in terms of resists. Its too reactive for a typing that has to use what little it has to be a HO typing (save shuckle ofc) and with the addition of Z-Belly Drum Azumarill this gen, it cant even stop that properly anymore. While storm drain does assist massively in the Water MU, cradily is passive, reactive, weak to status (namely toxic, the only other thing that its good for) which leaves it in a bit of a useless state in a Steel MU where it cant toxic anything, giga drain will do next to nothing and mirror coat is the only reason left for it to exist, so it would become entirely predictable, leaving you in a bad matchup with effectively a third of your team being worthless (shuckle after setting up doesnt really do anything except die or switch out to be Sac'd later). I feel this doesnt leave rock in a good state, where it could instead have an ally that is more offensive, and keeping pressure via shuckles webs/rocks, all of which the other A rank mons fill perfectly well (again, save shuckle).

Cradily and Alolan-golem (Currently in B-Rank) fit much better together, stating that cradily is still a solid, viable choice for the type, but arent as much of a necessity as mons above it, which all fit the Ideal of Hyper Offense much better for rock.

Alolan golem's role for rock teams is mainly to be a steel trapper using its unique typing and coverage to delete high priority steel threats (scizor, celesteela etc.), and cradily has the same idea: Soak up water threats intended for the rest of the team. These 2 mons share the same Concept: They truly shine within 1 matchup, then fall short in so many others. Golem is slow and with having to take magnet pull to be a steel trapper, losing sturdy for safety, which with it can be taken down easily due to its pitiful speed tier and typing leaving it quad weak to ground moves, something that rock already struggles with to begin with and only gains 1 resistance, being electric. Cradily shines as a water sponge for rock, best in the water Matchup, but falls short with again: cripplingly low speed tier, weakness to status, slew of weaknesses, lack of crucial resists outside of storm drain and severe lack of offensive presence all while being extremely passive on a type that needs to keep momentum to stay alive.

These reasons lead me to say that Cradily no longer fits as one of the ideal mons for rock teams, and should be demoted to B-Rank.

Edit: My god I apologize for how poorly this was worded, someone remind me to not do these at 5am ever again lol.
 
Last edited:

Seo.

Nice guys always finish last...

Cradily (Rock): A ====> B
Hi all, Time to put up something that has been on my mind for a while:
Cradily as it stands for rock teams is sitting a little too passive for a typing that already has 1 massive momentum sink that is almost mandatory within its ranks (shuckle). Rock as a type has arguably the worst defensive typing in the game, and cradily, while useful with its amazing ability storm drain, doesnt shore up a ton of rocks problems outside of Water, electric and normal moves in terms of resists. Its too reactive for a typing that has to use what little it has to be a HO typing (save shuckle ofc) and with the addition of Z-Belly Drum Azumarill this gen, it cant even stop that properly anymore. While storm drain does assist massively in the Water MU, cradily is passive, reactive, weak to status (namely toxic, the only other thing that its good for) which leaves it in a bit of a useless state in a Steel MU where it cant toxic anything, giga drain will do next to nothing and mirror coat is the only reason left for it to exist, so it would become entirely predictable, leaving you in a bad matchup with effectively a third of your team being worthless (shuckle after setting up doesnt really do anything except die or switch out to be Sac'd later). I feel this doesnt leave rock in a good state, where it could instead have an ally that is more offensive, and keeping pressure via shuckles webs/rocks, all of which the other A rank mons fill perfectly well (again, save shuckle).

Cradily and Alolan-golem (Currently in B-Rank) fit much better together, stating that cradily is still a solid, viable choice for the type, but arent as much of a necessity as mons above it, which all fit the Ideal of Hyper Offense much better for rock.

Alolan golem's role for rock teams is mainly to be a steel trapper using its unique typing and coverage to delete high priority steel threats (scizor, celesteela etc.), and cradily has the same idea: Soak up water threats intended for the rest of the team. These 2 mons share the same Concept: They truly shine within 1 matchup, then fall short in so many others. Golem is slow and with having to take magnet pull to be a steel trapper, losing sturdy for safety, which with it can be taken down easily due to its pitiful speed tier and typing leaving it quad weak to ground moves, something that rock already struggles with to begin with and only gains 1 resistance, being electric. Cradily shines as a water sponge for rock, best in the water Matchup, but falls short with again: cripplingly low speed tier, weakness to status, slew of weaknesses, lack of crucial resists outside of storm drain and severe lack of offensive presence all while being extremely passive on a type that needs to keep momentum to stay alive.

These reasons lead me to say that Cradily no longer fits as one of the ideal mons for rock teams, and should be demoted to B-Rank.
Doing this on phone so can't write a long af post on this but how u gonna compare alolan golem and cradily like that? Cradily provides water immunity which is really appreciated by rock, while alolan golem doesn't offer anything to rock. If you want something for scizor use rhyperior, better bulk and can easily take a +2 and return a fire punch thus cradily should stay A rank
 

roman

Banned deucer.
No but whos keeping sciz in on rhyp since everyone knows that it p much only gets usage as a sciz check which means that youre gonna get worn down really easily by +2 uturn/ tran / w/e else (idk abt bug but it seems that stuff like ara eats up fpunch and our speeds) so yeah sciz is probably gonna sweep if you get outplayed like at all. the part that you might be missing is how alolem actually completely beats it in most cases since it traps outpaces and kos similar to how cradily checks many water-types due to storm drain. i think that it's fair to compare them in this fashion

also short bc im busy and on mobile
 
Doing this on phone so can't write a long af post on this but how u gonna compare alolan golem and cradily like that? Cradily provides water immunity which is really appreciated by rock, while alolan golem doesn't offer anything to rock. If you want something for scizor use rhyperior, better bulk and can easily take a +2 and return a fire punch thus cradily should stay A rank
What's important to note about Alolan Golem vs Mega Scizor is that Mega Scizor won't be freely switching into Heatran the same way it does for Rhyperior. In order to escape, it would literally be forced to U-turn out and take an insane Inferno Overdrive. Additionally, Alolan Golem also does a great job at trapping and removing certain Pokemon on Steel that would make it more difficult for Choice Band Terrakion to put in work, such as Skarmory. Even in matchups outside of Steel, trapping and removing Ferrothorn makes it much easier for Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl to put in work in the Grass matchup, and even in the Ground matchup, removing Choice-locked Excadrill in sand is extremely important for Omastar and Nihilego to put in work later on. Alolan Golem may not be as broadly effective as Rhyperior, but saying that it doesn't offer anything is simply false.

No but whos keeping sciz in on rhyp since everyone knows that it p much only gets usage as a sciz check which means that youre gonna get worn down really easily by +2 uturn/ tran / w/e else (idk abt bug but it seems that stuff like ara eats up fpunch and our speeds) so yeah sciz is probably gonna sweep if you get outplayed like at all. the part that you might be missing is how alolem actually completely beats it in most cases since it traps outpaces and kos similar to how cradily checks many water-types due to storm drain. i think that it's fair to compare them in this fashion

also short bc im busy and on mobile
I do agree that Cradily and Alolan Golem aren't comparable, but regarding your points on Rhyperior, while its primary role is as a Mega Scizor check, it still proves itself to be an effective blanket check in nearly every matchup, being able to check Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian(who isn't affected by Sticky Web), Excadrill in sand, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and many other threats. Araquanid isn't the most consistent switch-in in the Bug matchup due to not even outspeeding Rhyperior under Sticky Web, meaning it won't be surviving the following Rock Slide. But these are just some minor thoughts.


Cradily (Rock): A ====> B
Hi all, Time to put up something that has been on my mind for a while:
Cradily as it stands for rock teams is sitting a little too passive for a typing that already has 1 massive momentum sink that is almost mandatory within its ranks (shuckle). Rock as a type has arguably the worst defensive typing in the game, and cradily, while useful with its amazing ability storm drain, doesnt shore up a ton of rocks problems outside of Water, electric and normal moves in terms of resists. Its too reactive for a typing that has to use what little it has to be a HO typing (save shuckle ofc) and with the addition of Z-Belly Drum Azumarill this gen, it cant even stop that properly anymore. While storm drain does assist massively in the Water MU, cradily is passive, reactive, weak to status (namely toxic, the only other thing that its good for) which leaves it in a bit of a useless state in a Steel MU where it cant toxic anything, giga drain will do next to nothing and mirror coat is the only reason left for it to exist, so it would become entirely predictable, leaving you in a bad matchup with effectively a third of your team being worthless (shuckle after setting up doesnt really do anything except die or switch out to be Sac'd later). I feel this doesnt leave rock in a good state, where it could instead have an ally that is more offensive, and keeping pressure via shuckles webs/rocks, all of which the other A rank mons fill perfectly well (again, save shuckle).

Cradily and Alolan-golem (Currently in B-Rank) fit much better together, stating that cradily is still a solid, viable choice for the type, but arent as much of a necessity as mons above it, which all fit the Ideal of Hyper Offense much better for rock.

Alolan golem's role for rock teams is mainly to be a steel trapper using its unique typing and coverage to delete high priority steel threats (scizor, celesteela etc.), and cradily has the same idea: Soak up water threats intended for the rest of the team. These 2 mons share the same Concept: They truly shine within 1 matchup, then fall short in so many others. Golem is slow and with having to take magnet pull to be a steel trapper, losing sturdy for safety, which with it can be taken down easily due to its pitiful speed tier and typing leaving it quad weak to ground moves, something that rock already struggles with to begin with and only gains 1 resistance, being electric. Cradily shines as a water sponge for rock, best in the water Matchup, but falls short with again: cripplingly low speed tier, weakness to status, slew of weaknesses, lack of crucial resists outside of storm drain and severe lack of offensive presence all while being extremely passive on a type that needs to keep momentum to stay alive.

These reasons lead me to say that Cradily no longer fits as one of the ideal mons for rock teams, and should be demoted to B-Rank.
As someone who has been using Rock quite a bit this gen, I do agree that Cradily isn't as important as its fellow A ranks. With Water not being heavily favored very much in Gen 7 due to the introduction of various new threats(Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, Magearna, Double Dance Mew), it isn't as prevalent to where Rock would have to worry largely about it. Besides, Rock already acquired a new asset to greatly benefit this matchup in Nihilego, while also proving to be a premiere staple pick for Rock teams as the type's strongest special wallbreaker. All your points regarding how passive it is and how it proves to be a momentum drain for Rock teams are absolutely correct. Rock teams already have 4 teamslots set in stone, alongside the obligatory Mega Scizor check in either Rhyperior or Alolan Golem. The final moveslot will end up being a tossup between Cradily, Mega Aerodactyl, and Omastar, and Rock teams will most of the time be leaning towards the more offensive options in Omastar and Mega Aerodactyl. Omastar is capable of completely soloing an incredibly difficult and prevalent matchup in Ground, while also offering another potent special wallbreaker. Mega Aerodactyl aids in less relevant yet still incredibly difficult matchups in Grass and Fighting, as well as another rather difficult matchup in Bug. While Cradily and Alolan Golem aren't particularly comparable in the roles they perform for the type, what is comparable is their lesser appeal in comparison to Rock's other options. Because of this, I do agree that Cradily should drop to B rank.
 
I'd like to clarify what i was getting at by comparing Cradily with Alolan-Golem: my intention was not to compare what the 2 mons do as a role for rock, but the flaw that they both share. Golem performs as a decent steel trapper, but outside of a matchup where magnet pull would be useful, its very lackluster. This same thing applies for cradily: In a matchup where storm drain would be useful it shines, but outside of those matchups its very lackluster, as your standard toxic spammer and generic wall, which rock really cannot afford to be running most of the time, since they would rather be running more offensive options unless a blatant cteam or specified check is intended.
 
My argument

Crustle [Bug] (Unlisted to B Tier for bug and C Tier for rock) -
For bug coverage, having Rock STAB is amazing. Sturdy, White or Liechi Berry, Shell Smash is amazing for late game sweeps against fire teams who have lost their priority (mainly Entei, Arcanine, and Infernape). In addition, you could use it as a hazards setter. I mainly go with a late offensive sweeper with 1) Shell Smash, 2) Stone Edge, 3) Earthquake, 4) Knock Off (for psychic, ghost, and general utility).
 
My argument
Crustle [Bug] (Unlisted to B Tier for bug and C Tier for rock) - For bug coverage, having Rock STAB is amazing. Sturdy, White or Liechi Berry, Shell Smash is amazing for late game sweeps against fire teams who have lost their priority (mainly Entei, Arcanine, and Infernape). In addition, you could use it as a hazards setter. I mainly go with a late offensive sweeper with 1) Shell Smash, 2) Stone Edge, 3) Earthquake, 4) Knock Off (for psychic, ghost, and general utility).
The issue with Crustle is that it hits such a poor Speed tier even after a Shell Smash, being outsped by nearly every relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon in the metagame. Oh, and regarding Crustle vs Fire, not only does Crustle have an awful time setting up against Fire teams in general, but it's outsped by every relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon on Fire and will proceed to be KOed by a sun boosted Flare Blitz / V-Create from Infernape or Victini:

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle in Sun: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle in Sun: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And these calcs are assuming it's carrying a White Herb. If it's carrying any other item, these would simply KO right away. If Crustle tries to run Adamant, it'll miss out on outspeeding key threats like Tapu Koko and Greninja after +2, and if it goes Jolly, not only does it sacrifice power, but it'll still be outsped by prominent Choice Scarf Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Infernape and Victini, as well as Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Landorus-Therian. Also, I can't see why you nominated it for C rank on Rock when you didn't even bring up how it benefits Rock teams. The only arguments you brought up were for Bug teams, and even those don't carry much weight. I've already explained why Crustle serves as an inconsistent setup sweeper, but regarding its Rock STAB, Armaldo also offers this, while also offering more of an offensive presence as a hazard setter and providing essential utility in Rapid Spin. For Rock teams, Omastar is already the superior Shell Smasher due to being capable of soloing a problematic matchup in Ground, while still proving to be a powerful special wallbreaker in the Steel matchup. Crustle is more than fine staying Unranked. If you feel like it should be ranked higher, you need to provide better and more detailed arguments for it.
 

iLlama

Nothing personal, I protect my people
My argument
Crustle [Bug] (Unlisted to B Tier for bug and C Tier for rock) - For bug coverage, having Rock STAB is amazing. Sturdy, White or Liechi Berry, Shell Smash is amazing for late game sweeps against fire teams who have lost their priority (mainly Entei, Arcanine, and Infernape). In addition, you could use it as a hazards setter. I mainly go with a late offensive sweeper with 1) Shell Smash, 2) Stone Edge, 3) Earthquake, 4) Knock Off (for psychic, ghost, and general utility).
I'm going to have to disagree with both suggestions. Crustle in theory works well against Fire teams, however most common scarfers, i.e. Victini, Infernape, or even the occasional Darmanitan is going to outspeed and most likely take down Crustle unless Sturdy is in tact. Plus you have to contend with whatever Mega the Fire is running because Zard Y can blow back Crustle if Sturdy is broken and Zard X threatens to sweep your entire team if Sturdy is broken. Assuming Crustle took the slot for Armaldo on your team, it's already going to be difficult enough to manage entry hazards against Fire if you're relying on Scizor Defogging or Forretress Rapid Spinning. You could get entry hazards of your own onto the field, including Sticky Web, but Fire doesn't need to struggle to bring in Torkoal to Rapid Spin or another hazard removal option as much as Bug would. On Bug, Crustle may seem like a good asset with access to entry hazards, Shell Smash, and Rock-type STAB, but all of its roles can be taken over by other Pokémon that fill more roles that Bug needs in order to succeed. Take its fellow Rock/Bug Armaldo for example. Although Armaldo lacks Crustle's ability to be a setup sweeper with a Sturdy/Shell Smash combo, Armaldo is a great Stealth Rock setter, is neutral to Fire- and Flying-type and carries Rock STAB, is a good source of utility in Knock Off and Toxic, and is able manage entry hazards through Rapid Spin which is vital for Bug's success. Crustle's role for using Rock attacks can also be filled with the support of either Heracross, whether it's Choice Scarf Stone Edge or Mega with Rock Blast, Scolipede with Swords Dance and Rock Slide and/or Z Rock Slide, and even Durant with Rock Slide/Stone Edge with Hone Claws as well. All these physical threats also have much, much better speed tiers than Crustle and overall have a greater amount of flexibility with attacking options.

For Rock, I just don't see any reason to use Crustle over anything D Rank and up. Its Bug STAB + Shell Smash simply doesn't give the type anything that it needs, nor wants. With Terrakion, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and Minior as physical options, there's just no reason to run Crustle.
 
I'm going to have to disagree with both suggestions. Crustle in theory works well against Fire teams, however most common scarfers, i.e. Victini, Infernape, or even the occasional Darmanitan is going to outspeed and most likely take down Crustle unless Sturdy is in tact. Plus you have to contend with whatever Mega the Fire is running because Zard Y can blow back Crustle if Sturdy is broken and Zard X threatens to sweep your entire team if Sturdy is broken. Assuming Crustle took the slot for Armaldo on your team, it's already going to be difficult enough to manage entry hazards against Fire if you're relying on Scizor Defogging or Forretress Rapid Spinning. You could get entry hazards of your own onto the field, including Sticky Web, but Fire doesn't need to struggle to bring in Torkoal to Rapid Spin or another hazard removal option as much as Bug would. On Bug, Crustle may seem like a good asset with access to entry hazards, Shell Smash, and Rock-type STAB, but all of its roles can be taken over by other Pokémon that fill more roles that Bug needs in order to succeed. Take its fellow Rock/Bug Armaldo for example. Although Armaldo lacks Crustle's ability to be a setup sweeper with a Sturdy/Shell Smash combo, Armaldo is a great Stealth Rock setter, is neutral to Fire- and Flying-type and carries Rock STAB, is a good source of utility in Knock Off and Toxic, and is able manage entry hazards through Rapid Spin which is vital for Bug's success. Crustle's role for using Rock attacks can also be filled with the support of either Heracross, whether it's Choice Scarf Stone Edge or Mega with Rock Blast, Scolipede with Swords Dance and Rock Slide and/or Z Rock Slide, and even Durant with Rock Slide/Stone Edge with Hone Claws as well. All these physical threats also have much, much better speed tiers than Crustle and overall have a greater amount of flexibility with attacking options.

For Rock, I just don't see any reason to use Crustle over anything D Rank and up. Its Bug STAB + Shell Smash simply doesn't give the type anything that it needs, nor wants. With Terrakion, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and Minior as physical options, there's just no reason to run Crustle.
I apologize as I probably didn't go into much detail as I am a new poster. I will admit I don't know enough about Rock Monotype to make a competent argument for it to be viable.

As for bug, a 252 Speed Adamant Crustle reaches 378 Speed after shell smash. If more speed is desired, you could run a Salac berry with sturdy which, while not solving the priority issue, gets speed up to 472 which speed ties scarf Infernape and out-speeds scarf Victini. You could also go Jolly if you want. I agree that Armaldo is a much better Stealth Rocker and has access to Aqua Jet/Rapid Spin. I also agree that the issue of entry hazards with Crustle does exist. However, Armaldo is more of a utility than a sweeper. Crustle is a physical sweeper. I was a bit overzealous with a B-ranking. I do think that the versatility of the Pokemon and the move pool should make it ranked within Bug.
 

mushamu

God jihyo
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Froslass (Ghost) D-->C


I don't think this pokemon belongs in the D ranking because of spikes. Spikes is a cool tool to abuse when your team is full of spinblockers, and can be used in conjunction with scarf gengar to put pressure on the opposing team, as Scarf Gengar forces many switches. It is way better than Decidueye or Sableye, and can be scary when used correctly.
Ice STAB is also very useful when fighting dragon, and taunt can be used to prevent defog.
I brought two replays in which layers of spikes and hazards put pressure on the opposing team, allowing offensive Ghost type Pokémon to plow through.

 
Last edited:
I'm going to have to disagree with both suggestions. Crustle in theory works well against Fire teams, however most common scarfers, i.e. Victini, Infernape, or even the occasional Darmanitan is going to outspeed and most likely take down Crustle unless Sturdy is in tact. Plus you have to contend with whatever Mega the Fire is running because Zard Y can blow back Crustle if Sturdy is broken and Zard X threatens to sweep your entire team if Sturdy is broken. Assuming Crustle took the slot for Armaldo on your team, it's already going to be difficult enough to manage entry hazards against Fire if you're relying on Scizor Defogging or Forretress Rapid Spinning. You could get entry hazards of your own onto the field, including Sticky Web, but Fire doesn't need to struggle to bring in Torkoal to Rapid Spin or another hazard removal option as much as Bug would. On Bug, Crustle may seem like a good asset with access to entry hazards, Shell Smash, and Rock-type STAB, but all of its roles can be taken over by other Pokémon that fill more roles that Bug needs in order to succeed. Take its fellow Rock/Bug Armaldo for example. Although Armaldo lacks Crustle's ability to be a setup sweeper with a Sturdy/Shell Smash combo, Armaldo is a great Stealth Rock setter, is neutral to Fire- and Flying-type and carries Rock STAB, is a good source of utility in Knock Off and Toxic, and is able manage entry hazards through Rapid Spin which is vital for Bug's success. Crustle's role for using Rock attacks can also be filled with the support of either Heracross, whether it's Choice Scarf Stone Edge or Mega with Rock Blast, Scolipede with Swords Dance and Rock Slide and/or Z Rock Slide, and even Durant with Rock Slide/Stone Edge with Hone Claws as well. All these physical threats also have much, much better speed tiers than Crustle and overall have a greater amount of flexibility with attacking options.

For Rock, I just don't see any reason to use Crustle over anything D Rank and up. Its Bug STAB + Shell Smash simply doesn't give the type anything that it needs, nor wants. With Terrakion, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and Minior as physical options, there's just no reason to run Crustle.
The issue with Crustle is that it hits such a poor Speed tier even after a Shell Smash, being outsped by nearly every relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon in the metagame. Oh, and regarding Crustle vs Fire, not only does Crustle have an awful time setting up against Fire teams in general, but it's outsped by every relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon on Fire and will proceed to be KOed by a sun boosted Flare Blitz / V-Create from Infernape or Victini:

252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle in Sun: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crustle in Sun: 306-360 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And these calcs are assuming it's carrying a White Herb. If it's carrying any other item, these would simply KO right away. If Crustle tries to run Adamant, it'll miss out on outspeeding key threats like Tapu Koko and Greninja after +2, and if it goes Jolly, not only does it sacrifice power, but it'll still be outsped by prominent Choice Scarf Pokemon, such as the aforementioned Infernape and Victini, as well as Terrakion, Hydreigon, and Landorus-Therian. Also, I can't see why you nominated it for C rank on Rock when you didn't even bring up how it benefits Rock teams. The only arguments you brought up were for Bug teams, and even those don't carry much weight. I've already explained why Crustle serves as an inconsistent setup sweeper, but regarding its Rock STAB, Armaldo also offers this, while also offering more of an offensive presence as a hazard setter and providing essential utility in Rapid Spin. For Rock teams, Omastar is already the superior Shell Smasher due to being capable of soloing a problematic matchup in Ground, while still proving to be a powerful special wallbreaker in the Steel matchup. Crustle is more than fine staying Unranked. If you feel like it should be ranked higher, you need to provide better and more detailed arguments for it.
Perhaps I could take a crack at it then, as ive been toying with the idea of Crustle on rock teams as of late, and while i cant speak as much for bug teams, the same general concepts should apply.


Crustle: Unranked ====> D (Rock AND Bug)
Crustle is a decent shell smasher with an amazing ability that alot of other shell smashers lack: Sturdy, thus removing the need for both white herb and focus sash, as it cant be OHKO'd from full hp (effect of sash) and the defense drops from shell smash are irrelevant if it can survive any attack from full hp anyhow. This frees up an item slot for crustle that can have a myriad of uses such as Weakness Policy, Salac berry (to make up for lack of Weak armor that most other Shell smash users have), Z crystals (We'll get to that one in more detail later on) and even healing items to help supplement the hit it would take normally (figy, sitrus etc). As for a Fire matchup using either type, Sticky webs would allow crustle to outspeed and take out most of the high speed threats mentioned by both of you, and both bug and rock enjoy using webs commonly via shuckle (rock) and galv (bug) without the need for a salac berry.

As for its offensive pressure, Crustle actually sports great offensive pressure that most other rock types cannot show other than rhyperior, as none of them learn the extremely powerful move Rock Wrecker. Rock Wrecker is a devastating rock type move that effectively works as rock type hyper beam, Which brings me to the topic i mentioned earlier: Z-Crystals. Z-Rock Wrecker Sports the highest Z-power normally possible at a whopping 200 BP (Further STAB boosted by crustles typing!) And its bug typing gives pressure to the Grass Matchup for rock via X-Scissor, while its rock typing gives pressure to fire teams after its set up with (Rock move of choice) + EQ.

Heres a List of calcs on Crustles wallbreaking potential for some of the most potent physical walls in the meta:


+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 327-385 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Z-RR is a flat OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 396-466 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 330-388 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 348-409 (114.8 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 318-375 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 816-961 (116 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 349-412 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Because what player doesnt hate dealing with magearna)

So, Ive shown that Crustle has the Potential to do amazing things. That being said, why am I only suggesting this mon for D rank on both of its typings?

  1. Crustles stats: As stated by iLlama above, fire (for bug teams) wouldnt exactly have a horrible time bringing in torkoal to remove webs, so if you cannot guarantee webs on your opponents side, crustle will lose out to basic scarfers in speed, crippling how effective it will be in most matchups. Crustles lack of weak armor in exchange for sturdy leaves it at a disadvantage over other shell smashers as if its struck it wont become a +4 speed sweeper, which then would outspeed scarfers and showing its true reliance on needing webs out to do its job.
  2. Crustles Moves: Rock Wrecker, while an amazing damage source, is a very double edged sword. After the use of Z-RR, the next use will Force you to skip your next turn Which is absolutely crippling to not only its sweeping potential but could be the reason you lose (Ex. Magearna comes in and Fleur/Flash Cannons/Twinkle Tackle/Corkscrew Crashes onto crustle, wiping it out and giving out a free soul heart boost, which is absolutely horrible for rock to deal with properly). Also if you were to abuse its bug typing for moves such as X-Scissor, that leaves crustle weak in matchups rock already struggles with (Ground) And bug has no reason to use X-Scissor in the first place.
  3. Status: Should be self explanitory, any form of status is crippling to crustle: Poison removes sturdy and cuts crustles longevity severely with no recovery, burns cut its attack stat and para cuts its speed, both of which it needs to succeed at its job.
  4. Team Slots: Rock as a whole already has severely limited team options and most of its spots are locked in stone (heh rock puns). If crustle were to take a valuable spot from one of rocks primary mons, it would have to take the place of Omastar, which is severely less effective as a whole, as omastar has the ability to solo the ground matchup for rock, which is utter hell without it and also takes away one of rocks few and second best special wallbreaker/sweepers.
This being said, Id be able to safely say crustle is something that can exist within its respective typings, but so many things take precedence that its role is niche at best, So I think a D rank is acceptable for both bug and rock for crustle.
 
Perhaps I could take a crack at it then, as ive been toying with the idea of Crustle on rock teams as of late, and while i cant speak as much for bug teams, the same general concepts should apply.


Crustle: Unranked ====> D (Rock AND Bug)
Crustle is a decent shell smasher with an amazing ability that alot of other shell smashers lack: Sturdy, thus removing the need for both white herb and focus sash, as it cant be OHKO'd from full hp (effect of sash) and the defense drops from shell smash are irrelevant if it can survive any attack from full hp anyhow. This frees up an item slot for crustle that can have a myriad of uses such as Weakness Policy, Salac berry (to make up for lack of Weak armor that most other Shell smash users have), Z crystals (We'll get to that one in more detail later on) and even healing items to help supplement the hit it would take normally (figy, sitrus etc). As for a Fire matchup using either type, Sticky webs would allow crustle to outspeed and take out most of the high speed threats mentioned by both of you, and both bug and rock enjoy using webs commonly via shuckle (rock) and galv (bug) without the need for a salac berry.

As for its offensive pressure, Crustle actually sports great offensive pressure that most other rock types cannot show other than rhyperior, as none of them learn the extremely powerful move Rock Wrecker. Rock Wrecker is a devastating rock type move that effectively works as rock type hyper beam, Which brings me to the topic i mentioned earlier: Z-Crystals. Z-Rock Wrecker Sports the highest Z-power normally possible at a whopping 200 BP (Further STAB boosted by crustles typing!) And its bug typing gives pressure to the Grass Matchup for rock via X-Scissor, while its rock typing gives pressure to fire teams after its set up with (Rock move of choice) + EQ.

Heres a List of calcs on Crustles wallbreaking potential for some of the most potent physical walls in the meta:


+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 327-385 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Z-RR is a flat OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 396-466 (108.7 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 330-388 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Rock Wrecker vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 348-409 (114.8 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 318-375 (85 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 816-961 (116 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (200 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 349-412 (106.7 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Crustle Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 364-430 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Because what player doesnt hate dealing with magearna)

So, Ive shown that Crustle has the Potential to do amazing things. That being said, why am I only suggesting this mon for D rank on both of its typings?

  1. Crustles stats: As stated by iLlama above, fire (for bug teams) wouldnt exactly have a horrible time bringing in torkoal to remove webs, so if you cannot guarantee webs on your opponents side, crustle will lose out to basic scarfers in speed, crippling how effective it will be in most matchups. Crustles lack of weak armor in exchange for sturdy leaves it at a disadvantage over other shell smashers as if its struck it wont become a +4 speed sweeper, which then would outspeed scarfers and showing its true reliance on needing webs out to do its job.
  2. Crustles Moves: Rock Wrecker, while an amazing damage source, is a very double edged sword. After the use of Z-RR, the next use will Force you to skip your next turn Which is absolutely crippling to not only its sweeping potential but could be the reason you lose (Ex. Magearna comes in and Fleur/Flash Cannons/Twinkle Tackle/Corkscrew Crashes onto crustle, wiping it out and giving out a free soul heart boost, which is absolutely horrible for rock to deal with properly). Also if you were to abuse its bug typing for moves such as X-Scissor, that leaves crustle weak in matchups rock already struggles with (Ground) And bug has no reason to use X-Scissor in the first place.
  3. Status: Should be self explanitory, any form of status is crippling to crustle: Poison removes sturdy and cuts crustles longevity severely with no recovery, burns cut its attack stat and para cuts its speed, both of which it needs to succeed at its job.
  4. Team Slots: Rock as a whole already has severely limited team options and most of its spots are locked in stone (heh rock puns). If crustle were to take a valuable spot from one of rocks primary mons, it would have to take the place of Omastar, which is severely less effective as a whole, as omastar has the ability to solo the ground matchup for rock, which is utter hell without it and also takes away one of rocks few and second best special wallbreaker/sweepers.
This being said, Id be able to safely say crustle is something that can exist within its respective typings, but so many things take precedence that its role is niche at best, So I think a D rank is acceptable for both bug and rock for crustle.
Why would you ever use Z-Rock Wrecker when Z-Stone Edge only has 10 less BP, gets all the same KOs, and isn't a waste of a moveslot?

Sturdy's utility is also undermined on Rock, since the type has no viable hazard removal.
 
Last edited:

Vid

Our life is what our thoughts make it
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Quick reminder it is never ok to post a pointless one liners that add nothing to discussion (any one liners will be deleted).
For now here's a mini update (please note not everything from before has been looked at or considered this is just a few obvious things)
The new update should be posted by next week
(Water) C--->A
(Ghost) Unranked--->D
(Ground) Unranked--->D
 
I've been wanting to make this nomination for a while. Not only because I feel like this Pokemon genuinely deserves this ranking, but because I wanted to let the world know just how underrated Pangoro is and why.


Pangoro (Fighting) C -> B
Pangoro has a few apparent flaws when you initially look at it. An excellent Attack stat doesn't make up for its poor Speed stat, or lack of good bulk. However, Pangoro has a very useful niche on Fighting teams, and it does have a few very good traits that set it apart from its current C ranked partners.

Pangoro hits very hard.
Pangoro's Attack stat of 124 plus its great coverage and STAB combination makes it a deadly wallbreaker. Knock Off is a great STAB move that hits the Ghost- and Psychic types that Fighting struggles against. In fact, a lot of types have limited switch-ins/counters to Pangoro. Pangoro aids heavily in the Water, Poison, Ghost, Psychic, Steel, Flying, and other matchups, and I will explain why shortly. Here are some calcs* to show just how much of a nuke Pangoro is:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 242-286 (79.6 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 181-214 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 199-234 (50 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Scrappy) 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 291-346 (95.7 - 113.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 48 Def Scizor-Mega: 292-344 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 227-269 (62.5 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Pangoro is a positive factor in a large amount of types.
One of the biggest reasons Pangoro has its rank is because of its Dark/Fighting typing making it 4x weak to Fairy. However, Pangoro is still a very positive difference-maker even in this matchup. Despite the weakness to Fairy, it obtains Gunk Shot as well as Iron Fist-boosted Bullet Punch in combination with Swords Dance, as well as the ability to 2HKO things like Trick Room Magearna. Pangoro's Dark typing is super useful, as not only is it a switch-in to things like Choice Scarf Latios which just runs through Fighting otherwise, but it is immune to Prankster. Notably, it can't be burned by non-mega Sableye and it can't be paralyzed by Klefki. In the Water matchup, it can dent most defensive Pokémon that Fighting has trouble beating, such as Toxapex (See previous calcs) as well as things like Lanturn, Suicune, Alomomola, Tapu Fini if Gunk Shot, and even things like Pelipper if you choose to run Thunder Punch. It also learns Fire Punch if you want to instantly threaten Skarmory and Celesteela. Both Fire and Thunder Punch are boosted by Iron Fist, so it's evident Pangoro has plenty of moves to abuse with this ability. Pangoro also has a VERY good pivot move in Parting Shot should the player choose to run that instead.

Pangoro can live hits.
While its bulk of 95/78/71 isn't the best, it definitely gives Pangoro the chance to live plenty of neutral attacks in the metagame. A lot of the time, it can survive a strong attack that leaves it with low HP, then recover much of it back thanks to Iron Fist boosted Drain Punch. Here are some calcs that show what Pangoro can live.
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 246-289 (74 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 264-312 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 269-317 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 242-288 (72.8 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 300-354 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


Pangoro really hates the fact that it has such a low Speed stat. Teams with Pangoro also usually appreciate Mega Heracross, so a bit of team support is needed, but looking at the definition of what a B ranked Pokémon is, I believe Pangoro should reside there as it is much more superior than things like Scrafty.

Edit: Here are some sets
Pangoro @ Life Orb
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance

Pangoro @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch / Hammer Arm
- Knock Off
- Parting Shot / Fire Punch
- Gunk Shot / Bullet Punch
 
Last edited:

mushamu

God jihyo
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Sylveon (Fairy) B --> C


I don't see a reason to use sylveon when there are better fairies around with better coverage such as Primerina, Alolan Ninetails, and Gardevoir, especially when Baton pass is banned. Even Diancie could be used over sylveon because of Stealth Rock/ Rock typing/ Coverage. Sylveon being pure fairy, it doesn't really do anything that others can't. Keep in mind that Fairy is a type in which teamslots are really tight, and I don't think Sylveon makes the cut for B rank.

edit: CM Clefable too
 
Last edited:
Golisopod (Bug) D --> C


I have been using Golisopod on Bug and it punches holes in teams. Although it lacks speed the moves Sucker Punch and First Impression allow it to kill off set up mons or sweep late game. It also has some pretty good defence allowing it to take hits and deal more damage. The ability Emergency Exit I was sceptical about at first but the banded set that I use does not need health for most games as it relies on its priority against offensive teams, therefore it can be used as a 'free' switch in to another mon to keep momentum when you are in a tough spot.

Golisopod @ Choice Band
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Sucker Punch

252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 246-291 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 141-167 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 216-255 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 167-197 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 139-165 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Golisopod First Impression vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Porygon-Z: 210-247 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


I really couldn't remember what else Golisopod punches through in the calcs so they will have to do for now. Another plus is that as it can pretty much beat Psychic/Dark/Grass just by clicking First Impression and switching a lot it allows the rest of your team to run more coverage for other types. The water coverage for Bug also really helps it beat Ground quite easily if played well as well as having a better steel match up.

Edit: Run 84 speed to out-speed Alolan Muk - smub
Edit2: I want to reiterate that Emergency Exit has been great for me using HO as it gains momentum rather than balance.
 
Last edited:
Haven't done one of these in a while, let's hope this doesn't turn out awful



Goodra: C=>B (Dragon)

Yet another nomination that I've made previously, it's surprising how Goodra hasn't risen to B rank yet. With an Assault Vest, it proves to be one of Dragon's best switch-ins against threats such as Tapu Koko and Clefable. However, what sets it apart from Dragalge in this aspect is its solid offensive presence, being able to severely threaten any potential switch-ins on Fairy teams with either Sludge Wave or Flamethrower. This great blend of defensive and offensive utility is very appreciated by Dragon teams. Here are some calcs demonstrating its defensive and offensive capabilities:

Red=taking damage Blue=dealing damage
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 92-110 (24 - 28.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 184-218 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 116-140 (30.2 - 36.5%) -- 57% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 274-324 (96.1 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 109-129 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 117-140 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- 59.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 262-309 (86.4 - 101.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 87-103 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Alakazam-Mega: 198-234 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And then there's its abilities. Gooey is extremely helpful for slowing down physical sweepers, which can make it much easier for revenge killers like Scarf Latios and Hydreigon to remove them. Sap Sipper is another great ability in order to stop the Leech Seed spam from Ferrothorn and Celesteela, which can be problematic for Dragons who rely on being as healthy as possible like Dragonite and Garchomp. Goodra deserves more than to be stuck in C rank alongside Kommo-o and Tyrantrum, and is more suitable in B rank alongside other helpful utility Pokemon like Dragalge and Latias.

Here is what I think is Goodra's most effective set in the metagame:
Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper / Gooey
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Wave
- Earthquake / Dragon Tail

 


Goodra: C=>B (Dragon)
Problem with Goodra I think is that you are pretty much picking Goodra or Dragalge on your average team and the reason why Dragalge is higher is because of Toxic Spikes. T. Spikes puts a lot of pressure on Normal teams especially and helps even the match up. It puts a lot of pressure on Staraptor / Pid to defog because Raptor doesn't really like switching into Dragonite, Kyb, etc. It also can't switch into Dragalge itself. Any decent normal team (read:chansey lol) shuts down that goodra set. So if you want to use Goodra you will either need CM Latias or Kyb without Roost or Choice Scarf, which are usually compromises you don't want to make. I think Goodra is decent mon with its own advantages but Toxic Spikes is really good for Dragon in some matchups.

Also I have some minor thoughts / discussion points but not really "formal" nominations:

I think Diggersby should move up to S on Normal and Porygon-Z should move down to A. I also think Bewear should move up to A but that is probably more controversial.

Diggersby fits on a lot of normal teams just as a choice attacker or set up monster that can clean or wallbreak pretty well for normal teams. It is one of the only (the only? Melo-P doesn't really count) pivot that normal has that resists stealth rock. Normal teams tend to suffer in the momentum department as not many of them have U-turn or Volt Siwtch, and the better ones that do tend to be weak to stealth rock. Knock Off, Fire Punch and Earthquake is really good coverage for Normal teams to have that is hard to come by.

For PoryZ I just think that it is waaaaayyyy too hard to set up to justify its rank in S. I don't think it is that good anymore because it is predictable. Honestly I would rather use Specs Pory Z right now or something because so many players are expecting the Conversion. It cannot really set up on any decent threat that out speeds it, and even if you can tank a hit, outspeed, and KO next turn you are more than likely in priority range of something. Not to mention that almost every type has a common scarfer faster than +1 Pory.
 
Problem with Goodra I think is that you are pretty much picking Goodra or Dragalge on your average team and the reason why Dragalge is higher is because of Toxic Spikes. T. Spikes puts a lot of pressure on Normal teams especially and helps even the match up. It puts a lot of pressure on Staraptor / Pid to defog because Raptor doesn't really like switching into Dragonite, Kyb, etc. It also can't switch into Dragalge itself. Any decent normal team (read:chansey lol) shuts down that goodra set. So if you want to use Goodra you will either need CM Latias or Kyb without Roost or Choice Scarf, which are usually compromises you don't want to make. I think Goodra is decent mon with its own advantages but Toxic Spikes is really good for Dragon in some matchups.
It seems like the majority of this argument boils down to "It does worse in the Normal matchup than Dragalge". Dragon in general will always have issues with Normal, which isn't a fault specifically in Goodra's case. Regarding Chansey, this is precisely why Goodra has teammates that can deal with Chansey, such as Choice Band Dragonite and Trick Latios, both of which should be staple picks for viable Dragon teams anyway. Also, not only is CM Latias not at all necessary alongside Goodra, but 4-Attacks LO Kyurem-Black is far from a sacrifice Dragon teams have to make. Scarf sets aren't even worth it on Dragon teams right now, since Scarf Latios and Hydreigon are already good enough speed control as is, and it would simply be a waste of its wallbreaking potential.

And as for your Bewear nomination, even if it's controversial, at least provide some legitimate reasoning as to why you think it should rise. Just leaving it there makes me and probably a few other people wonder what the point of the nomination even was.
 
Last edited:

Havens

WGI World Champion
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Problem with Goodra I think is that you are pretty much picking Goodra or Dragalge on your average team and the reason why Dragalge is higher is because of Toxic Spikes. T. Spikes puts a lot of pressure on Normal teams especially and helps even the match up. It puts a lot of pressure on Staraptor / Pid to defog because Raptor doesn't really like switching into Dragonite, Kyb, etc. It also can't switch into Dragalge itself. Any decent normal team (read:chansey lol) shuts down that goodra set. So if you want to use Goodra you will either need CM Latias or Kyb without Roost or Choice Scarf, which are usually compromises you don't want to make. I think Goodra is decent mon with its own advantages but Toxic Spikes is really good for Dragon in some matchups.

Also I have some minor thoughts / discussion points but not really "formal" nominations:

I think Diggersby should move up to S on Normal and Porygon-Z should move down to A. I also think Bewear should move up to A but that is probably more controversial.

Diggersby fits on a lot of normal teams just as a choice attacker or set up monster that can clean or wallbreak pretty well for normal teams. It is one of the only (the only? Melo-P doesn't really count) pivot that normal has that resists stealth rock. Normal teams tend to suffer in the momentum department as not many of them have U-turn or Volt Siwtch, and the better ones that do tend to be weak to stealth rock. Knock Off, Fire Punch and Earthquake is really good coverage for Normal teams to have that is hard to come by.

For PoryZ I just think that it is waaaaayyyy too hard to set up to justify its rank in S. I don't think it is that good anymore because it is predictable. Honestly I would rather use Specs Pory Z right now or something because so many players are expecting the Conversion. It cannot really set up on any decent threat that out speeds it, and even if you can tank a hit, outspeed, and KO next turn you are more than likely in priority range of something. Not to mention that almost every type has a common scarfer faster than +1 Pory.
Sniped: feelsrip

Not to undermine your statements by any degree, but I have to agree with smub on his nomination of moving Goodra up to B rank. I completely understand that Toxic Spikes are incredibly useful against its weaknesses in the form of Normal, Fairy, and in my opinion, Dark, but besides having another form of hazards, as well as the need for Toxic Spikes to be useful in "some matchups" in your analysis, Dragalge suffers from being incredibly slow and frail, something that in a way, contradicts what the type has usually been known for in being fast and Hyper Offensive in general, with a few exceptions. In that regard, it would be better to utilize Goodra for overall better bulk and what it provides for Dragon. Considering the amazing bulk it has on the special side, especially paired with Assault Vest 9/10 times, It is a very solid tank on the special side that tanks moves that many of its partners would ever be able to; most notably Twinkle Tackle Magearna, Tapu Koko's Dazzling Gleam, Greninja's Ice Beam and even Volcarona's boosted Bug Buzz. In this regard, Goodra would be the best option to at least tank hits and dish out a few as well, by delivering some damage and then letting mons like Scarf Latios or Banded Espeeds from Dragonite to revenge kill or sweep. Alternitavely, the abilites in Sap Sipper and Gooey help to prevent certain mons such as Celesteela, Scarf Excadrill (Steel), Mega Charizard X (at plus 1), and others from staying out on the field and causing trouble. The point is, Goodra, in my opinion, serves Dragon better overall in the meta than Dragalge does. This doesn't mean that I'm denying that Dragalge is a useful mon to the type, I'm certainly not saying it has no use to Dragon, but if I had to pick one mon over the other, I'd have to pick Goodra.

Edit: Goodra is one of the exceptions to Dragon's typical "Fast and Powerful" mindset that many players perceive of it, but it's necessary in the long run.

It seems like the majority of this argument boils down to "It does worse in the Normal matchup than Dragalge". Dragon in general will always have issues with Normal, which isn't a fault specifically in Goodra's case. Regarding Chansey, this is precisely why Goodra has teammates that can deal with Chansey, such as Choice Band Dragonite and Trick Latios, both of which should be staple picks for viable Dragon teams anyway. Also, not only is CM Latias not at all necessary alongside Goodra, but 4-Attacks LO Kyurem-Black is far from a sacrifice Dragon teams have to make. Scarf sets aren't even worth it on Dragon teams right now, since Scarf Latios and Hydreigon are already good enough speed control as is, and it would simply be a waste of its wallbreaking potential.
I'll also quickly address this too. Though Latios and Hydreigon are incredible scarfers with speed control, that doesn't mean that other scarf sets such as Salamence or Kyurem-Black aren't just as threatening or viable as well. Are they uncommon in comparison to Latios and Hydreigon? Yes. Is it a chance that they don't see much success in comparison to Latios and Hydreigon? Yes. Are they by any means useless for the type? Absolutely not. I'm very certain that people are willing to use Scarf sets that are not as conventional if that means their own personal success, and that's fine if that gets them the win at the end of the day.
 
Luxray C --> D/Unranked

My argument for Luxray dropping from C rank to D rank is that it is pretty much unusable in this meta. Although Electric having a small amount of usable Physical Pokemon there are still a lot of Pokemon that outshine Luxray. One of these includes Electivire, although not very viable in itself Electivire seems to out shine Luxray in every way outside of the ability although Intimidate is a good ability, Luxray does not have the bulk to put it to good use and Guts is very situational.

Luxray has 3 less Attack and 25 less Speed than Electivire making it under speed Pokemon like Tapu Bulu, Buzzwole, Diggersby, Mamoswine and many more.
In terms of breaking stall its arguably best set of Choice Band is scouted and PP stalled by Suicune who out speeds and can Sub/Protect on it.

It also has a very lacking move pool in comparison to Electivire.
Luxray's moves: Crunch, Fire Fang, Facade (Niche), Ice Fang, Quick Attack, Super Power, Wild Charge
Electivire's moves: Cross Shop, Earthquake, Fire Punch, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, Power up Punch, Quick Attack, Rock Slide, Thunder Punch, Wild Charge

Not to mention that Electivire has the option of being ran as a good mixed attacker getting Flamethrower and Focus Blast. Then on top of that Electivire can beat stall a little easier as it has the option of running taunt. The last point on moves is that Punch moves are 100% accurate and do more damage where as Fang moves are not 100% accurate and do slightly less.

I just want to clarify I am not saying that Electivire is viable, I am just saying that considering how out classed Luxray is by Electivire an non viable Pokemon I do not think they should share the same VR.
 
Not saying Luxray shouldn't move down or anything, but a plus that should keep it on the VR it the fact that it beats Chansey + Porygon 2 with Flame Orb or Choice Band Superpower. I'm not really sure what moves Electivrie would run, but the only option it has to possibly 2HKO Pory2 would be Life Orb Focus Blast fully invested. Electric Terrain Thunderbolt (LO boosted) has a small chance to 2HKO with stealth rock, but it isn't reliable really, and if you're using 'Vire as a fully special attacker on electric teams you are probably doing something wrong... In general Guts Boosted Facade / Electric Terrain Wild Charge really really hurt.

As for Bewear I just think that Bwear handles a lot of cool threats that Normal teams can't handle with just Porygon2. First of all its ability to take on Bisharp is amazing because that thing is super annoying.

A lot of people are using Choice Band, and that hits hard and all but Sub Bulk Up + Dual STABs is like really good. If you can get in on Ferrothorn or Celesteela without a leech seed, you basically just use them as fodder (as long as Cel is physical / lacks Flamethrower). Also, between Pory2 and Bwear you will not really have any problems with Scizor like ever. I honestly do not think there is a physical attack that can break the sub at +1 Bulk Up unless its like V-Create in the Sun or something. Its main weakness when I have used it is not so much special attackers but usually phazers like Skarm or Manibuzz, but they need to eat a hit as it leaves and they generally aren't too bad for Normal to handle (If Manibuzz doesn't have Whirlwind it doesn't even win against Bewear ) It also makes weaknesses worse, like Victini and Z-move users that bypass Fluffy.

Yes it is walled by ghosts, but honestly ghost isn't super common right now and I think the set is okay up until Marshadow is released and everyone and their mother is using ghost lol.
 

SkullBandanaInkling

Banned deucer.


Marshadow (Ghost) Unranked => S rank

A ghost type with super effective STAB against Dark and Normal types and has an amazing 125 Attack/Speed.

(I really hope it doesn't get banned because Marshadow is just what Ghost monotype needed. Finally gives them a way to deal with Dark and Normal monotypes.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top