Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Another team built from 1v1 Team-Building Workshop:

There was a germ of an idea in the 1v1 room to get an actual team built around either Mega Tyranitar or Naganadel. So, we held a team-building workshop, and this is what panned out of the team-building process:


First, a poll was made to choose the Pokemon around which the team was to be built. In the poll that happened, Mega Tyranitar was chosen by the majority, so we started off with it. A set was made for Mega Tyranitar, taking into account the stats and the moveset available, and this set was accepted by consensus:


Pokemon 1
Tyranitar-Mega @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 84 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Fire Punch
- Low Kick
- Earthquake


The EVs here help in tanking a Choice Specs Bug Buzz from Download boosted Timid Genesect and a couple of Outrage from Kyurem-B.

  • Rock Tomb helps in KOing Mega Charizards, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, and also for speed control against Pokemon like Heatran, Magnezone.
  • Fire Punch helps in KOing some Steel-type Pokemon like Aegislash, Genesect and Celesteela.
  • Low Kick can KO Pokemon like Mega Gyarados, Stakataka, and Mega Tyranitar.
  • Earthquake can KO some Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Magnezone, and Heatran.
Note: While sending it against Greninja, start with Fire Punch; if Protean Greninja uses Hydro Cannon, Mega Tyranitar can follow Fire Punch up with Thunder Punch to net the KO, but if Protean Greninja uses Grass Knot, Fire Punch KOs usually and even if it doesn't, the following Sandstorm damage KOs Greninja.

After arriving at the Mega Tyranitar, a list of common threats were drawn up and the list consisted of:

  • Tapu Lele
  • Mega Venusaur
  • Tapu Fini
  • Donphan
  • Golem
  • Crustle
  • Magearna
  • Curse Mimikyu
  • Mega Gyarados
  • Mega Slowbro, amongst others........

This led us to believe that Mew would pair up well with Mega Tyranitar and so, keeping in mind the threats it had to overcome, the Mew set was agreed to be the following one:

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 200 HP / 128 Def / 120 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Overheat


The EVs here let Mew tank a Z-Fleur Cannon from Magearna, and a Rock Tomb+Z-StoneEdge/Z-EarthQuake from Golem with a chance in your favour. This is needed because Sturdy Pokemon can have Protect to not get wrecked by Fake Out.

  • Fake Out is essentially to take of Sturdy Pokemon like Donphan, Golem, Crustle, Magnezone, etc. It could also be used for chip damage for one turn.
  • Nasty Plot helps in setting up against match-ups which aren't KO'd by Genesis Supernova or Overheat, like Magearna or Primarina.
  • Psychic is turned into a 185 Base Power Genesis Supernova by Mewnium Z, which after a Nasty Plot setup, can KO mons like Mega Venusaur, Tapu Fini, Tapu Lele. In addition to this, Genesis Supernova also summons Psychic Terrain, which shields it from Priority moves like Ice Shard from Donphan, Sucker Punch from Golem.
  • Overheat in this set helps in KOing Magearna after a Nasty Plot setup, Magnezone after a Fake Out, and some other Steel-type Pokemon as well.

After these two Pokemon were decided, the weakness list was drawn up again, and found to be as follows:

  • Mega Gyarados
  • Curse Mimikyu
  • Mega Metagross
  • Mega Slowbro
Taking all these into consideration, there was a debate as to whether Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard Y, or bulky Tapu Koko should be used. Since Mega Charizard Y and Mega Scizor can be countered by Mega Slowbro, so bulky Tapu Koko was decided as the third teammate. So, after some calculations, the Tapu Koko was decided to be:
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 12 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Charge
- Reflect
- Wild Charge / Thunder
- Taunt


The EVs help Koko in tanking Mega Metagross Meteor Mash and a +1 max Attack Flare Blitz from Mega Charizard X after Reflect is used.

  • Charge increases Special Defense of the user, helping it in tanking Choice Specs Psychic Tapu Lele and some other Pokemon too. It also increases the power of the Electric-type move used in the next turn.
  • Reflect helps in tanking Mega Metagross Meteor Mash and Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz. It also helps in tanking Let's Snuggle Forever from Mimikyu.
  • Either Wild Charge or Thunder can be used in this set as the main Electric-type STAB move, though Wild Charge is the preferable one. Electrium Z powers it into a 175 Base Power(Z-Wild Charge) or 185 Base Power(Z-Thunder) Electric Z Move which can KO the required target. Here,Wild Charge is preferable because it can help in KOing Snorlax, which is a very recent, annoying threat in the 1v1 metagame.
  • Taunt helps in shutting stall Pokemon like Jumpluff and Whimsicott down. It can also be used to prevent setting up of Pokemon like Mega Charizard X, Crustle against Koko.

So, after much discussion, some varied opinions, and much changing of usual sets to fit the required niche, the final team looks like this:

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 200 HP / 128 Def / 120 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Overheat

Too Many Hands (Tyranitar-Mega) @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 84 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 12 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Charge
- Reflect
- Wild Charge
- Taunt


That's it for now, until next post, Imma listen to Eminem Revival yayypeace fellas, and have fun using this team on the ladder...
 
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Hey guys, back here once again with a hard c-team set. This time, I decided to pick magearna. I was thinking about what it could beat with occa berry, and stumbled upon this, which beats charizard-mega-x.


Magearna @ Occa Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave

In reality, thunder wave and substitute are filler moves, as they aren't really needed to beat char-x.

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Occa Berry Magearna: 226-267 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's extremely unpredictable, and can pull some clutch wins as a c-team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-676967523
Example of how the set works.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-676974314
How thunderwave and sub might be used, but they can be substituted for something else (pun intended).

That's all for now,
Freddy Kyogre
 
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pqs

Banned deucer.
1v1 Workshop Compendium

Key:
BK = Before Kyurem-Black Ban
ABK = After Kyurem-Black Ban

Whimsicott @ Occa Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Substitute
- Moonblast

Mimikyu @ Mimikium Z
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Curse
- Substitute
- Protect

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam



Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 148 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
- High Jump Kick

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 80 HP / 108 Def / 196 SpA / 124 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 70 Def / 252 SpA / 186 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic


Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 64 HP / 64 Def / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cotton Guard
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Roost

Victini @ Psychium Z
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- V-create
- Taunt
- Flame Charge

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Def / 200 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Uproar
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock


Volcarona @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 100 HP / 200 Def / 68 SpA / 120 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Flame Charge
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Overheat

Primarina @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Def / 28 SpA / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Moonblast
- Energy Ball
- Aqua Jet

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SpA / 188 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Cotton Guard
- Roost
- Substitute


Primarina @ Waterium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Aqua Jet
- Encore
- Moonblast

Blaziken-Mega @ Blazikenite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SpA / 224 Spe
Naive Nature
- Protect
- High Jump Kick
- Blast Burn
- Rock Slide

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Charm
- Uproar



Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Atk / 84 Def / 100 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Fire Punch
- Low Kick
- Earthquake

Mew @ Mewnium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 200 HP / 128 Def / 120 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Overheat

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 12 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Charge
- Reflect
- Wild Charge
- Taunt


usefulcrab (Crustle) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 SpD / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 7 Def
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Counter / Protect / Earthquake

VIETNAM (Charizard) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 Def / 36 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp

Lady Smallwood (Gardevoir) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 200 HP / 48 Def / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Beam


bird poop (Abomasnow-Mega) @ Abomasite
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Atk / 100 Def / 64 SpA / 92 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake

aqua bob the bui (Primarina) @ Primarium Z
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 168 HP / 248 Def / 68 SpA / 24 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Sparkling Aria
- Encore
- Aqua Jet
- Light Screen

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 160 HP / 100 Def / 76 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm



Kommunist (Kommo-o) @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 180 HP / 52 SpA / 164 SpD / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Focus Blast
- Flamethrower
- Taunt

the meta is gross (Metagross-Mega) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Iron Head / Meteor Mash
- Thunder Punch
- Bulldoze
- Bullet Punch

funny cube (Crustle) (M) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Substitute
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast


pqs irl (Landorus-Therian) @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 156 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Bulk Up
- Substitute
- Rock Tomb

deg ril (Pyukumuku) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Protect
- Recover
- Toxic

someone irl (Gyarados-Mega) @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head


Hoopa @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Psychic

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 164 HP / 252 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Cannon
- Fake Out
- Icy Wind
- Dragon Pulse

Ferrothorn @ Steelium Z
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Atk / 76 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA / 0 Spe
- Iron Defense
- Gyro Ball
- Rest
- Power Whip



mace's (Porygon-Z) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 216 HP / 100 Def / 116 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Uproar
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Blizzard


Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Mind Blown
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic


Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Fake Out
- Hydro Cannon
- Icy Wind


yours (Rhyperior) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Metal Burst

male (Gardevoir) (M) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 56 HP / 236 Def / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Psychic
- Hyper Beam
- Calm Mind

f (Blaziken) @ Blazikenite
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- High Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Protect

Durant (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 24 HP / 232 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Thunder Fang

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 99
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss
- Growl

Camerupt-Mega (F) @ Cameruptite
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 100 SpA / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Yawn
- Protect

Breloom @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Snatch
- Spore

Nihilego @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 156 Def / 144 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blast Burn
- Will-O-Wisp
- Solar Beam
- Flame Charge

Incineroar @ Incinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 120 HP / 176 Atk / 36 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Darkest Lariat
- Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 104 HP / 96 Atk / 104 Def / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Giga Impact
- Return
- Substitute

Dragonite @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Atk / 24 Def / 4 SpA / 68 SpD / 128 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Fly
- Bulldoze
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Dance

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 24 SpA / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Hypnosis
- Counter

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 60 Def / 68 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 8 SpA / 36 SpD / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Taunt
- Flamethrower
- Bulldoze


Dragonite @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Atk / 92 Def
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Punch

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Big Pecks
EVs: 76 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Uproar

Tapu Bulu @ Grassium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 204 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Nature's Madness
- Bulk Up
- Leech Seed
 
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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Look, there clearly has been no shortage of workshops and workshop teams over the past few weeks. So here's yet another one. This team was made by me, Glyx, and pqs with other passerby participating, built around Special Kommo-o.


Kommunist (Kommo-o) @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 180 HP / 216 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
- Clanging Scales
- Stomping Tantrum
- Flamethrower
- Taunt


the meta is gross (Metagross-Mega) @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 204 SpD / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Iron Head
- Thunder Punch
- Bulldoze
- Bullet Punch


funny cube (Crustle) (M) @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Substitute
- Rock Wrecker
- Rock Blast
 
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Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
is a CAP Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus

1v1 Species Clause

A short while ago a heated debate occurred in this thread between several of the Tier Leaders and a few of the more opinionated forum regulars (was extremely entertaining to read). At the end of this discussion Tier Leader Uselesscrab mentioned he’s taking a break from posting on the issue, yet he’d like to hear people’s opinions on everything – so that’s what I’m here to do. Also around this time DEG, another esteemed Tier Leader, mentioned three main points on why he’s in favor of keeping Species Clause from a TL perspective, so I’ll be touching on those points to be thorough. Then at the very end I have an issue with the whole situation of Species clause getting banned the way it did, and how that factors into this discussion.

I’d like to take the time to address DEG’s 3 points on why Species Clause was introduced into the 1v1 Metagame, and offer up my opinion on each of them.


Point #1

Our objective as a 1v1 leadership team and community is to make the metagame both enjoyable and competitive. We aren't leading a sort of only fun metagame nor something like Anything Goes. 1v1 should be treated as a competitive metagame, that should follow the same definitions as competitive. This would solidify us as a metagame trying to become better, and move forward and not be taken as a fun metagame that has no place in a competitive scene.

I need more of a definition on what makes a metagame competitive. I honestly can’t see where allowing someone to use multiples of the same Pokemon makes it less competitive. It makes you adapt to that one mon being spammed, find a way to beat one mon soundly, and leads to creative thinking in order to beat it on a regular basis if it checks a larger portion of common threats – That doesn't sound like an uncompetitive meta to me. Honestly someone trying to sit there and argue about having to deal with two Charizards at team preview being uncompetitive makes me laugh. Yes I understand that maybe looking at team preview with three different mons will help give you clues to what their last is, but I learned a lesson early on in my mons career that I feel applies to this situation: people are bad, and think differently than you. This may seem rude or strange, but I assure you they are words to live by. You can sit there at team preview predicting all you want, but a decent percent of the time you’re either going to incorrectly predict their team as they took a different approach then you would have or they are going to have holes in their team you would never dream of having leading to you misjudging the team. Obviously the first issue pertains more to high ladder/tours while the second issue is still seen in tours and most of the ladder. Not saying incompetence is a reason this isn’t unhealthy, but I’m also saying that the argument of “it’s easier to predict sets if my opponent has 3 different mons” just isn’t ideal for why we’re enforcing a clause.​

Also on this point I’d ask you to define why staying away from becoming a tier similar to AG was decided upon by the Tier Leaders. Is there a specific issue with this tier that causes the Tier Leaders to want to stay away from it, or really any solid reason – since I have trouble thinking of one? Or more how does not having a species clause cause 1v1 to spiral towards AG (which is apparently a bad thing). The tier bans moves (Perish Song) and Pokémon (Deoxys-D), yet somehow, we get linked to furthering ourselves from AG since it seems apparent we are too closely connected. Maybe I'm wrong on this and the tier just wants to stay away from AG as much as possible since it's a meta without rules, but that leads me to ask why one similarity is such a bad thing?​

Finally on this issue I’d like to address bettering ourselves as a Meta. I completely agree that we should be doing our best to better our reputation (as every tier should), however I don’t think this is a concrete way to do so. When it comes to being an Other Metagame the ultimate goal is to follow Monotype into flagship status, but aside from that impossibility for most OMs a large goal is to gain entrance into the Other Meta Grand Slam. One of the biggest OM tours, which has long been a distancing marker between 1v1 and other marquee Metagames. While I do believe getting the nod should be our goal I don’t see how this helps. Two of the OMs involved, 1/3 of the total (including AG), don’t enforce a species clause. Meaning that the OM community doesn’t see this as a general issue that reduces a tier’s validity. I know this third paragraph wasn’t a major reason for the addition of Species Clause, I’d just like to address it. (I know coin flip was the bigger concern, but still a sentence or two of clarification would be nice since I'm still wrapping my head around why we add this at all).​


Point #2

As explained above and before, having the same two Pokemon would amplify the guessing games. A lot of sets can be guessed via Team Preview by adding different same Pokemon to that Team Preview that would take out the prediction part in team preview which is an essential aspect of plays in 1v1. And that becomes worse when you have 3 of the same Pokemon which would just turn it to something as stupid as a coinflip. If you come with an argument about how the team would be bad with that, do not even bother saying it, since if the team becomes bad why are we even bothering discussing this, why don't you just drop it**.


Firstly I don’t think Species Clause is a huge boost since there are only a small number of mons that can even use multiple sets effectively, but I was told that won’t be considered valid so I’ll address other aspects of this point. Firstly there is still a prediction portion to a team with let’s say 3 Porygon Z (This was the best user of no Species Clause, so why not stick with the best throughout this post). The user facing three Porygon Z must first be able to identify what possible sets could one Mon use to achieve success in the metagame (you may laugh at this, but it’s not easy – With Tapu Koko running around one of the tier’s most versatile Pokemon in M-Gyarados would fail to achieve high amounts of success if ran as a triplet). So if someone manages to reason Scarf, Specs, and the now illegal Custap set (honestly making Species Clause less impactful since the best abuser got nerfed) they then move onto thinking about match up. They get to make a guess of which set they’re facing. They may guess right, they may guess wrong. Yes that can be seen as a coin flip, but it can also be seen as a guess you’d have to make the first time you play any Porygon-Z on the ladder. While you may say if there is one Porygon-Z I can better predict the set, I say Bolshevik since people are bad. Once again I refer to the fact your opponent might not be competent enough to distinguish what PZ set works best, or they simply build the team in a way you wouldn’t have initially suspected causing you to wrongfully predict and lose the game. Basically what I’m trying to say is that in your first game there is a “stupid coin flip”, as DEG so eloquently put it, which really can’t be avoided (and if you say you can I just don’t believe you). It could also be seen as simplifying that match up a little since there are no lures on a team, so if you have a hard counter to the Species Clause abuser no need to predict anything.​

My next argument branches off this Point, but doesn’t directly follow.

People need to stop emphasizing the ladder so much. The tier should not be tailoring its bans/unbans around the mind games that occur in the same teams 10th match up in an hour. Firstly if you’re seriously laddering adjust to the ladder…I don’t know what else to say. If the team you’re trying to RMT can’t break a common multiple occurrence Mon on a regular basis it may not be worth RMTing. Basically if you can’t beat what someone is spamming 3 whatevers of just run something that checks all three sets, I don’t see how that’s not simple. The second portion of this is that an area that should be looked at largely is tours. 1v1 has a flourishing tour scene that must be accounted for. In a tour be it a daily, an open, or a team tour you don’t get to play 15 games vs your opponent to get a handle on their team then have stuff start counting, it’s all or nothing right off the bat. This means that 1v1 should more be looking at the broken aspects of the tier with a fresh matchup between two players who have never faced before in mind, not some toxic 10th matchup between two players that refuse to adapt to the ladder.​


Point #3

Diversity has always been a problem ever since Generation 5, but in Generation 7 we are seeing more Pokemon, more sets and more cores in general. By removing Species Clause we allow people to run good Pokemon more than once which will hit diversity. This will also give the community more Pokemon to talk about being broken, "omg running 2 of this Pokemon is unpredictable, can we please get this Pokemon banned". Diversity is something we aim to get, it's something we aim to work to reach to make the metagame more enjoyable and competitive.


Firstly the decision to ban Species Clause happened in the shift between Gen 6 and 7, so this talk of seeing more cores in Gen 7 is just a lie as no time to observe the meta as it began to settle occurred this gun was drawn right off the bat. Also as an example from Gen 6 (the only thing observed) abusing the lack of species clause didn’t occur. I could make the argument seeing a team of 3 Porygon-Z, or double Charizards was an added wrinkle that increased the diversity of the tier due to it being uncommon, and leading to a few odd pokemon finding a niche as they checked the more frequently used abusers soundly. I’m sure that last point can be countered, so looking forward to that debate. Also I don’t see the fact of disallowing the using of multiples of one mon as a good thing as one of the suspect philosophy points in the thread disagrees.​


4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with a good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.


If a Pokemon can’t keep up why are we trying to help them? Point 3 claims that adding Species Clause helps more Pokemon and sets get a chance to shine, but I can argue that we shouldn’t even care since if they need Species Clause to be removed to truly prosper/become a top choice its tough luck – they don’t get that kind of aid.

Akward Transition to next portion of the post...

Now that we’ve addressed those points there are a few other issues I’d like to discuss, which starts to really reveal how this was a bad rule change that had no place in occurring. I’d like to talk about two more points from the 1v1 suspect philosophy that just continue to make this a head scratcher.​

Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost.

Right off the bat this rule tells us unpredictability isn’t a strong trait when discussing an issue with something being broken. This starts to make the “stupid coin flip” issue fade since not being able to predict the exact set shouldn’t be a major factor in a ban of sorts. Next we look at opportunity cost. This one is pretty simple, there absolutely is one. Hard counters that a mon can’t beat (with non crazy niche sets) equals an easy win. Since I’ve been mentioning ORAS a lot with PZ we’ll look at the infamous triple Porygon-Z team, and a few sets I made in about 5 minutes. The standard triple PZ team ran a Scarf set, a Specs set, and an Endure Custap set.​

Sets


Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest​

Ability: Guts​

EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD​

Adamant Nature​

- Drain Punch​

- Mach Punch


Terrakion @ Choice Scarf​

Ability: Justified​

- Sacred Sword​

(they don’t need other moves to consistently beat PZ, who was once again the most common abuser)​

Terrakion can KO even Max HP Porygon-Z, and can’t be OHKO’d by an Endure set (that’s why no CC, not opening up to a Hyper Beam at -1 Spdef). Conk Eats Modest Specs Hyper Beam (barring crit) and either KO’s with Drain Punch or Drain Punch into Mach Punch vs Endure sets. Once again this is just some quick sets I made to show the opportunity cost of spamming 1 mon with multiple sets – some matchups will just be an auto loss.


The next philosophy I'd like to address...

9) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.


This is what really starts to upset me when it comes to Species Clause. You say that you really value the opinion of all people, and try to avoid quick bans since WE make the Meta run. Yet, you decide to sneak in this change between Gen 6 and 7 – when it wasn’t even a topic of discussion Gen 6. I feel like at the very least this should have been discussed, before the trigger was pulled. Even in the short time this has been discussed recently a majority of posters in the thread seem to be in favor of at the very least testing out a meta without Species Clause. I guess the question becomes why not tolerate the discussion more?​

Conclusion:

I feel like the addition of Species Clause was done prematurely, and should be considered for reversal. Give the community a chance to shape the meta WE play. I’m sure there will be opposition to this, and I look forward to it. Hopefully out of this post comes some civil discussion (Avoid shit posting from either side pls), and we end up furthering and bettering the meta and its discussion. My final plea in this original post is that the TLs remain open to the idea of a suspect test based upon what’s said in the thread. Here’s to rehashing this.​
 

DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Suspect Test 4.0: Jirachi.


The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Jirachi to be suspected. The test will run for 2 weeks until Tuesday 9th of January at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Jirachi being ALLOWED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a Smogon conversation with me with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Jirachi will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "Everyone know what Jirachi does ever since Generation 6. With us taking an approach to more competitivity we have received many complaints about Jirachi and decided to follow them. Jirachi is a Pokemon that is predictable but still deadly. It's only job is to flinch the other Pokemon by using either Iron Head or Heart Stamp. It can easily cheese some wins against Mega Charizard Y, Donphan, Crustle and others, while it can win a matchup it is supposed to lose such as against Mega Gyarados. It can also hit Ground-types Pokemon such as Garchomp with Ice Punch and other Steel-type Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Scizor with Fire Punch. Jirachi is never used without the objective being flinching the opposing Pokemon which puts a big question mark on the competitive aspect of Jirachi. Even though sometimes the flinching math isn't in favor of Jirachi, with enough luck the user can achieve that percentage and get the win which makes Jirachi purely luck reliant with little to no plays involved.

We have decided to suspect Jirachi and not Togekiss or Serene Grace because, Jirachi is the prime abuser of flinch moves, it has better defensive typing overall, more speed and the combination of Iron Head and Heart Stamp hits a good portion of the metagame for neutral damage. Meanwhile a Serene Grace suspect or ban would make hurt other Pokemon that do not abuse it such as Meloetta. For these reasons we have decided to suspect test only Jirachi. "

FLINCH FLINCH FLINCH!

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heart Stamp
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick

Something else:

No, go flinch.


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion!
 
Last edited:

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Suspect Test 4.0: Jirachi.


The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Jirachi to be suspected. The test will run for 2 weeks until Tuesday 9th of January at 23:59 GMT and the requirements are 2600 COIL on the 1v1 ladder. You are not required to make a fresh alt because there will be a new ladder with Jirachi being BANNED. Once you've achieved your requirements create a Smogon conversation with me with a screenshot of your /rank and your vote, that way we can keep the thread clean and the vote private. Polite discussion is highly encouraged, please do not talk about the Pokemon unless you have tested to not plague the thread with fake-statements. Jirachi will need a 60% majority to get banned.

Justifications: "Everyone know what Jirachi does ever since Generation 6. With us taking an approach to more competitivity we have received many complaints about Jirachi and decided to follow them. Jirachi is a Pokemon that is predictable but still deadly. It's only job is to flinch the other Pokemon by using either Iron Head or Heart Stamp. It can easily cheese some wins against Mega Charizard Y, Donphan, Crustle and others, while it can win a matchup it is supposed to lose such as against Mega Gyarados. It can also hit Ground-types Pokemon such as Garchomp with Ice Punch and other Steel-type Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Scizor with Fire Punch. Jirachi is never used without the objective being flinching the opposing Pokemon which puts a big question mark on the competitive aspect of Jirachi. Even though sometimes the flinching math isn't in favor of Jirachi, with enough luck the user can achieve that percentage and get the win which makes Jirachi purely luck reliant with little to no plays involved.

We have decided to suspect Jirachi and not Togekiss or Serene Grace because, Jirachi is the prime abuser of flinch moves, it has better defensive typing overall, more speed and the combination of Iron Head and Heart Stamp hits a good portion of the metagame for neutral damage. Meanwhile a Serene Grace suspect or ban would make hurt other Pokemon that do not abuse it such as Meloetta. For these reasons we have decided to suspect test only Jirachi. "

FLINCH FLINCH FLINCH!

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heart Stamp
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Trick

Something else:

No, go flinch.


The B value for this test is 20. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rank) and plug that into the following formula:

N=20/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing)

Happy suspect and discussion!
Join the 1v1 room for live discussion!
I don't know if my opinion really matters in this regard but this seems like a joke of a suspect on multiple levels, firstly jirachi being suspected in general is stupid but what's even more stupid is togekiss not being suspected, it has arguably better coverage, and it can run multiple sets making it more unpredictable than jirachi. The reasoning behind the whole suspect is confusing as well as if uncompetitive-ness is the reason then why isn't sleep being suspected lol. That's just as bad if not worse than jirachi or flinching in general.
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I don't know if my opinion really matters in this regard but this seems like a joke of a suspect on multiple levels, firstly jirachi being suspected in general is stupid but what's even more stupid is togekiss not being suspected, it has arguably better coverage, and it can run multiple sets making it more unpredictable than jirachi. The reasoning behind the whole suspect is confusing as well as if uncompetitive-ness is the reason then why isn't sleep being suspected lol. That's just as bad if not worse than jirachi or flinching in general.
"jirachi being suspected in general is stupid"
Unbased claim

"[Togekiss] has arguably better coverage"
Togekiss coverage: Air Slash, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Aura Sphere, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam (7 total)
Jirachi coverage: Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Iron Head, Heart Stamp/Zen Headbutt, Play Rough, Thunder Punch, U-Turn (8 total)

"[Togekiss] can run multiple sets making it more unpredictable than jirachi"
This is honestly better used as an argument in the other direction. Jirachi's only good set, Choice Scarf, relies solely on flinch hax. Meanwhile, Togekiss can do similarly with a Choice Scarf set, but has redeeming positive qualities with its Z-Charm set which does not rely on flinch hax.

"The reasoning behind the whole suspect is confusing as well if uncompetitive-ness is the reason then why isn't sleep being suspected lol. That's just as bad if not worse than jirachi or flinching in general"
Because sleep has a peak level of hax; it can only last three turns. In theory, Jirachi could flinch you eternally without PP coming into play. Additionally, sleep is considered to be strategic under the understanding that it has a 2/3 chance to work if you need 2 turns of sleep (unlike Jirachi which generally needs to get at least two 60% flinches).

My ultimate argument:
Jirachi is outclassed by Mega Metagross and Genesect, except in the aspect of it having mad flinch hax. If the only reason to be using Jirachi is to fish for hax, then I think that it's pretty clearly uncompetitive.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
"jirachi being suspected in general is stupid"
Unbased claim

"[Togekiss] has arguably better coverage"
Togekiss coverage: Air Slash, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Aura Sphere, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam (7 total)
Jirachi coverage: Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Iron Head, Heart Stamp/Zen Headbutt, Play Rough, Thunder Punch, U-Turn (8 total)

"[Togekiss] can run multiple sets making it more unpredictable than jirachi"
This is honestly better used as an argument in the other direction. Jirachi's only good set, Choice Scarf, relies solely on flinch hax. Meanwhile, Togekiss can do similarly with a Choice Scarf set, but has redeeming positive qualities with its Z-Charm set which does not rely on flinch hax.

"The reasoning behind the whole suspect is confusing as well if uncompetitive-ness is the reason then why isn't sleep being suspected lol. That's just as bad if not worse than jirachi or flinching in general"
Because sleep has a peak level of hax; it can only last three turns. In theory, Jirachi could flinch you eternally without PP coming into play. Additionally, sleep is considered to be strategic under the understanding that it has a 2/3 chance to work if you need 2 turns of sleep (unlike Jirachi which generally needs to get at least two 60% flinches).

My ultimate argument:
Jirachi is outclassed by Mega Metagross and Genesect, except in the aspect of it having mad flinch hax. If the only reason to be using Jirachi is to fish for hax, then I think that it's pretty clearly uncompetitive.
All jirachis coverage moves are very weak lol ice punch won't kill chomp or landot ever or a genesect with Hp Evs, it's weakness of its coverage therefore making that coverage irrelevant against threats which immediately OHKO it back. Also togekiss having more sets to abuse arguably makes it more broken but that is one way of looking at it. Also while sleep may have a cap while flinch doesn't, 7 turns (the sleep cap) is more than enough to win any game of 1v1 where your opponent is not moving at all
 

Nalei

strong, wild garbage
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
All jirachis coverage moves are very weak lol ice punch won't kill chomp or landot ever or a genesect with Hp Evs, it's weakness of its coverage therefore making that coverage irrelevant against threats which immediately OHKO it back. Also togekiss having more sets to abuse arguably makes it more broken but that is one way of looking at it. Also while sleep may have a cap while flinch doesn't, 7 turns (the sleep cap) is more than enough to win any game of 1v1 where your opponent is not moving at all
Okay, if we're talking about good coverage, then Togekiss is limited to Air Slash, Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Dazzling Gleam. And uhh, the sleep cap is three turns, not seven...
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
Okay, if we're talking about good coverage, then Togekiss is limited to Air Slash, Flamethrower/Fire Blast and Dazzling Gleam. And uhh, the sleep cap is three turns, not seven...
My point was that those coverage moves can actually pick up the kills on mons they are intended for instead of doing 60~70 and being OHKOed back, and my bad on the sleep cap thing I was misinformed.
 
I don't know if my opinion really matters in this regard but this seems like a joke of a suspect on multiple levels, firstly jirachi being suspected in general is stupid but what's even more stupid is togekiss not being suspected, it has arguably better coverage, and it can run multiple sets making it more unpredictable than jirachi. The reasoning behind the whole suspect is confusing as well as if uncompetitive-ness is the reason then why isn't sleep being suspected lol. That's just as bad if not worse than jirachi or flinching in general.
The 1v1 council deem sleep to be fine and there has not been any arguments to convince us otherwise. As for Jirachi, it is obviously not being suspected for coverage or unpredictability because you know exactly what you get when you see it: hax. As for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.
 

dusk raimon

Banned deucer.
The 1v1 council deem sleep to be fine and there has not been any arguments to convince us otherwise. As for Jirachi, it is obviously not being suspected for coverage or unpredictability because you know exactly what you get when you see it: hax. As for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.
I was not trying to imply sleep should be suspected, I meant neither should be suspected, but I believe that if one was to be suspected then both should be. Also with togekiss the same applies, the only real differentiation is the typing and speed tier neither of which really matter when a scarf is slapped on and you being attempting to flinch, which is 95% of matchups with these pokemon.
 
The 1v1 council deem sleep to be fine and there has not been any arguments to convince us otherwise. As for Jirachi, it is obviously not being suspected for coverage or unpredictability because you know exactly what you get when you see it: hax. As for Togekiss, the consensus amongst the community as seen in this thread is that Togekiss is fine; the council agrees with that.
I'm really confused now! So, 1) Sleep-inducing isn't about hax as to when the sleep-induced Pokemon will get up? 2) Will only Jirachi, with its "haxing" capabilities, be banned,and not Serene Grace+ moves with 30% Flinching chance, which is the actual cause for the hax? I ask this because if Jirachi is getting banned today, Togekiss is gonna contend that place tomorrow, and if Togekiss is getting banned tomorrow,then Sawsbuck will rise in popularity, and so on. The logical thing to ban here would be the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% and more flinching chances. 3) The 1v1 community is not "against Jirachi and for Togekiss" ; rather, it is against the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% flinching chance.


With this in mind, I hope the result would end in affecting not the Pokemon,but the combination, which makes not only Jirachi but also other Pokemon with equal capabilities equally easy to spam hax one's way into success.
 
Alright, I talked about this in the 1v1 room, and I'll talk about it here.

The main reason I see that jirachi is currently being suspected is because it came up first in order. The dates to original pleads of the riddance of jirachi date back to april. While yes, darkrai was also talked about then, the higher-ups most likely decided that it wouldn't be healthy at the moment, and went with the next item on the list. At that point, sleep inducing things or zygod were not of topic, so they we'rent talked about at all.

It's just sequential order.
Please stop hating on the moderators and helpers of this metagame, and instead appreciate what they've done for us. In this year, we've come so far, and gone through quite a bit of change. Please take some time to look at that, and appreciate them, maybe thank one of the mods. They're doing what they feel is best for the metagame, and what should be done. Things will happen, everything that everyone is complaining about currently will eventually go on the chopping block. Be patient.

Thanks,
Freddy Kyogre
 

Felucia

Robot Empress
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
A quick one liner, Jirachi is USABLE on the suspect ladder atm.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-680115197
that's supposed to happen on any suspect ladder, Kyurem-Black was an exception

I'm really confused now! So, 1) Sleep-inducing isn't about hax as to when the sleep-induced Pokemon will get up? 2) Will only Jirachi, with its "haxing" capabilities, be banned,and not Serene Grace+ moves with 30% Flinching chance, which is the actual cause for the hax? I ask this because if Jirachi is getting banned today, Togekiss is gonna contend that place tomorrow, and if Togekiss is getting banned tomorrow,then Sawsbuck will rise in popularity, and so on. The logical thing to ban here would be the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% and more flinching chances. 3) The 1v1 community is not "against Jirachi and for Togekiss" ; rather, it is against the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% flinching chance.


With this in mind, I hope the result would end in affecting not the Pokemon,but the combination, which makes not only Jirachi but also other Pokemon with equal capabilities equally easy to spam hax one's way into success.
in 1v1, and smogon in general, we try to avoid complex bans, so banning Serene Grace + Iron Head is unpreferable. Also consider there is no value in keeping Jirachi around with a complex ban, because it's outclassed in everything it does other than flinches (more on that in MaceMaster's posts (I think)). So there's only one way out, and that is either banning or keeping Jirachi as a whole.

I might as well use this opportunity to highlight something important.
Something that I'm hearing from a lot of people is "if Jirachi is getting banned, why not Togekiss" followed by "If Togekiss isn't banned, then Jirachi shouldn't either"

I just want to say that keeping an (in your opinion) uncompetitive mon around just because another (in your opinion) uncompetitive mon is staying, makes no sense. Instead let's ban Jirachi first, and if you still think Togekiss is just as bad, then let's ban Togekiss later.

(note: I don't think we should ban Togekiss, I do think we should ban Jirachi though)
 
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DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I need more of a definition on what makes a metagame competitive. I honestly can’t see where allowing someone to use multiples of the same Pokemon makes it less competitive. It makes you adapt to that one mon being spammed, find a way to beat one mon soundly, and leads to creative thinking in order to beat it on a regular basis if it checks a larger portion of common threats – That doesn't sound like an uncompetitive meta to me. Honestly someone trying to sit there and argue about having to deal with two Charizards at team preview being uncompetitive makes me laugh. Yes I understand that maybe looking at team preview with three different mons will help give you clues to what their last is, but I learned a lesson early on in my mons career that I feel applies to this situation: people are bad, and think differently than you. This may seem rude or strange, but I assure you they are words to live by. You can sit there at team preview predicting all you want, but a decent percent of the time you’re either going to incorrectly predict their team as they took a different approach then you would have or they are going to have holes in their team you would never dream of having leading to you misjudging the team. Obviously the first issue pertains more to high ladder/tours while the second issue is still seen in tours and most of the ladder. Not saying incompetence is a reason this isn’t unhealthy, but I’m also saying that the argument of “it’s easier to predict sets if my opponent has 3 different mons” just isn’t ideal for why we’re enforcing a clause.
Also on this point I’d ask you to define why staying away from becoming a tier similar to AG was decided upon by the Tier Leaders. Is there a specific issue with this tier that causes the Tier Leaders to want to stay away from it, or really any solid reason – since I have trouble thinking of one? Or more how does not having a species clause cause 1v1 to spiral towards AG (which is apparently a bad thing). The tier bans moves (Perish Song) and Pokémon (Deoxys-D), yet somehow, we get linked to furthering ourselves from AG since it seems apparent we are too closely connected. Maybe I'm wrong on this and the tier just wants to stay away from AG as much as possible since it's a meta without rules, but that leads me to ask why one similarity is such a bad thing?
Finally on this issue I’d like to address bettering ourselves as a Meta. I completely agree that we should be doing our best to better our reputation (as every tier should), however I don’t think this is a concrete way to do so. When it comes to being an Other Metagame the ultimate goal is to follow Monotype into flagship status, but aside from that impossibility for most OMs a large goal is to gain entrance into the Other Meta Grand Slam. One of the biggest OM tours, which has long been a distancing marker between 1v1 and other marquee Metagames. While I do believe getting the nod should be our goal I don’t see how this helps. Two of the OMs involved, 1/3 of the total (including AG), don’t enforce a species clause. Meaning that the OM community doesn’t see this as a general issue that reduces a tier’s validity. I know this third paragraph wasn’t a major reason for the addition of Species Clause, I’d just like to address it. (I know coin flip was the bigger concern, but still a sentence or two of clarification would be nice since I'm still wrapping my head around why we add this at all).​
As competitive metagame I meant, a metagame that is comparable to other metagames. A metagame where a player should use different Pokemon to attain his goal, spamming the same Pokemon isn't something we want because it isn't something that you should do. A lot of people been saying this but without Species Clause in action only bad teams will utilize the same Pokemon because they do not cover anything which is why I see no reason to remove it. Species Clause doesn't add nor remove anything in the competitive aspect and I've said that a lot of times.

I didn't mean to say that AG isn't competitive nor other OMs that do not allow Species Clause such as Balanced Hackmons, I'm saying that both are built around the idea that Anything is allowed. It's in AG's name, Anything Goes which have no other clauses put in action and Balanced Hackmons is also a hack metagame that doesn't have the same clause as regular game play. Whereas 1v1 is a metagame that follows other metagames clauses and should stay that way. Being like both AG and BH is a bad thing for the metagame because it defies the true origins of the metagame.

Firstly I don’t think Species Clause is a huge boost since there are only a small number of mons that can even use multiple sets effectively, but I was told that won’t be considered valid so I’ll address other aspects of this point. Firstly there is still a prediction portion to a team with let’s say 3 Porygon Z (This was the best user of no Species Clause, so why not stick with the best throughout this post). The user facing three Porygon Z must first be able to identify what possible sets could one Mon use to achieve success in the metagame (you may laugh at this, but it’s not easy – With Tapu Koko running around one of the tier’s most versatile Pokemon in M-Gyarados would fail to achieve high amounts of success if ran as a triplet). So if someone manages to reason Scarf, Specs, and the now illegal Custap set (honestly making Species Clause less impactful since the best abuser got nerfed) they then move onto thinking about match up. They get to make a guess of which set they’re facing. They may guess right, they may guess wrong. Yes that can be seen as a coin flip, but it can also be seen as a guess you’d have to make the first time you play any Porygon-Z on the ladder. While you may say if there is one Porygon-Z I can better predict the set, I say Bolshevik since people are bad. Once again I refer to the fact your opponent might not be competent enough to distinguish what PZ set works best, or they simply build the team in a way you wouldn’t have initially suspected causing you to wrongfully predict and lose the game. Basically what I’m trying to say is that in your first game there is a “stupid coin flip”, as DEG so eloquently put it, which really can’t be avoided (and if you say you can I just don’t believe you). It could also be seen as simplifying that match up a little since there are no lures on a team, so if you have a hard counter to the Species Clause abuser no need to predict anything.
My next argument branches off this Point, but doesn’t directly follow.
People need to stop emphasizing the ladder so much. The tier should not be tailoring its bans/unbans around the mind games that occur in the same teams 10th match up in an hour. Firstly if you’re seriously laddering adjust to the ladder…I don’t know what else to say. If the team you’re trying to RMT can’t break a common multiple occurrence Mon on a regular basis it may not be worth RMTing. Basically if you can’t beat what someone is spamming 3 whatevers of just run something that checks all three sets, I don’t see how that’s not simple. The second portion of this is that an area that should be looked at largely is tours. 1v1 has a flourishing tour scene that must be accounted for. In a tour be it a daily, an open, or a team tour you don’t get to play 15 games vs your opponent to get a handle on their team then have stuff start counting, it’s all or nothing right off the bat. This means that 1v1 should more be looking at the broken aspects of the tier with a fresh matchup between two players who have never faced before in mind, not some toxic 10th matchup between two players that refuse to adapt to the ladder.​
I don't have anything to say on this point, but removing Species Clause amplify the guessing games, yes both players are put in a prediction, both players might predict wrong but that's not the point. As I said having Species Clause limit more and more the endless possibilities in a positive way, removing it would create more and more possibilities, more and more guessing, less diversity in some teams forcing a whole look at team building and playing in general.

Firstly the decision to ban Species Clause happened in the shift between Gen 6 and 7, so this talk of seeing more cores in Gen 7 is just a lie as no time to observe the meta as it began to settle occurred this gun was drawn right off the bat. Also as an example from Gen 6 (the only thing observed) abusing the lack of species clause didn’t occur. I could make the argument seeing a team of 3 Porygon-Z, or double Charizards was an added wrinkle that increased the diversity of the tier due to it being uncommon, and leading to a few odd pokemon finding a niche as they checked the more frequently used abusers soundly. I’m sure that last point can be countered, so looking forward to that debate. Also I don’t see the fact of disallowing the using of multiples of one mon as a good thing as one of the suspect philosophy points in the thread disagrees.
Removing Species Clause in generation 6 was a mistake, and if it never happened back then, would people call for it now? No. Also there's a huge difference between Gen 6 and 7, on one note we have access to new items (Z-moves), and another note we are taking the metagame more seriously at this moment, which translates into more and more suspects, more tournaments, a room and everything we have ever done and have more planned. And to be able to prosper we have to be taken more and more seriously, so this is a way to solidify 1v1 as a competitive and unique metagame.

I also have nothing to say regarding the second portion. But there's a difference in banning Pokemon so outclassed or low tiered Pokemon get used and removing the species clause so such overused Pokemon do not get spammed. I have nothing to say to the second portion but the Suspect Philosophy was written while having a Pokemon in mind and not a clause.

We also are going to re-work the suspect Philosophy soon tm.

This is what really starts to upset me when it comes to Species Clause. You say that you really value the opinion of all people, and try to avoid quick bans since WE make the Meta run. Yet, you decide to sneak in this change between Gen 6 and 7 – when it wasn’t even a topic of discussion Gen 6. I feel like at the very least this should have been discussed, before the trigger was pulled. Even in the short time this has been discussed recently a majority of posters in the thread seem to be in favor of at the very least testing out a meta without Species Clause. I guess the question becomes why not tolerate the discussion more?
A clause isn't something that can be suspected nor argued, it is something that transcend us. I've already said why we can't remove the species clause and I'm going to put it out again, but the only reason why we cannot tolerate this discussion anymore is because; Species Clause DOES NOT BRING ANYTHING to the table. It doesn't bring up positives, nor too much negatives in a competitive way but it brings us negatives in global when we're trying to make the metagame better. You, and everyone else already said it, using multiple Pokemon is bad, why are we even arguing at this point. It's like saying eat oranges can kill you and that's why the government banned it without asking, but the people wants to government to allow oranges to be eaten.

We are not removing Species Clause because:

1) Diversity
2) 1v1 isn't an anything allowed nor a hack based metagame
3) We're following other metagames
4) It brings nothing to the table



I also would like to reply to all the backlash about the Jirachi suspect test. We are suspecting Jirachi because it was already put into discussion countless times before, and it gets brought up every discussion or two and would like to end this discussion for once and for all, if Jirachi doesn't get banned, we're blacklisting for the next several months that discussion, I do not want to hear a word about it anymore. Also we have decided to not suspect test Zygarde-C because it hasn't been a couple of months yet, we will get to it after Jirachi yes. And I'm pretty sure, if we did suspect Zygarde-C we would as well receive backlash from some people saying that it's too soon. I've been in both positions as a leader and as a player and the player always have something to say about the leadership decisions without understanding the reasoning behind. The Leaders aren't completely free to do anything, there's also rules and regulations, we have to follow the community and if the other part of the community doesn't agree well, just join the suspect and vote no ban lol, there's no time lost, nothing is ever lost. We, as an OM, have also to wait for other OMs suspect tests so we cannot just decide the time alone. Also there's a cooldown period so the metagame can adapt between each suspects, we cannot throw suspect after suspect and reverse decisions as we please. Before really just shitting on us, think twice and understand that there's many things. From now on, I don't want to see any shitting on this thread about the Jirachi suspect test, and Species Clause until now (Except from Gross Sweep if he wants to reply), we can talk about Species Clause after Jirachi but for now focus on this and discuss it. Please, if you have anything to say, PM me on either Smogon, Discord or on PS! Thank you.
 
A quick one liner, Jirachi is USABLE on the suspect ladder atm.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1suspecttest-680115197
This is intended. Spam it as much as you can so you can truly gasp whether it’s uncompetitive or not.

I'm really confused now! So, 1) Sleep-inducing isn't about hax as to when the sleep-induced Pokemon will get up? 2) Will only Jirachi, with its "haxing" capabilities, be banned,and not Serene Grace+ moves with 30% Flinching chance, which is the actual cause for the hax? I ask this because if Jirachi is getting banned today, Togekiss is gonna contend that place tomorrow, and if Togekiss is getting banned tomorrow,then Sawsbuck will rise in popularity, and so on. The logical thing to ban here would be the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% and more flinching chances. 3) The 1v1 community is not "against Jirachi and for Togekiss" ; rather, it is against the combination of Serene Grace and moves with 30% flinching chance.


With this in mind, I hope the result would end in affecting not the Pokemon,but the combination, which makes not only Jirachi but also other Pokemon with equal capabilities equally easy to spam hax one's way into success.
You’re fully aware of the risks with utilizing a sleep strategy. You consciously make the decision to use it despite having bad accuracy and/or the mechanics of sleep. Being flinched to death by Jirachi’s Iron Head on the other hand is completely out of your control.
 

dom

Banned deucer.
For jirachi, people act like it flinches physdef zardxs and mdoses regularly. For this to happen, you'd have to get extremely lucky, to point where you need like 8-10 flinches against mdos which is a 1% chance. One percent. Nobody's saying to ban crits which are 6(well actually some1 did in this thread lmaooo) but it of course was not taken seriously. The chances of beating a zardy are 20% and thats the fast one that's pretty bad. This kind of luck is part of the (shitty) game and you have to deal with it. Jirachi isn't nothing without serene grace. It's pretty niche/bad, yes, but I could see myself using it without it.
Not gonna make an actual post because this sums my thoughts up well enough. I will say 2 things, though. Number one:
"jirachi being suspected in general is stupid"
My ultimate argument:
Jirachi is outclassed by Mega Metagross and Genesect, except in the aspect of it having mad flinch hax. If the only reason to be using Jirachi is to fish for hax, then I think that it's pretty clearly uncompetitive.
Your ultimate argument is wrong. I wouldn't even consider comparing Jirachi and genesect. Their only similarities are steel type legendaries with similarish stats. Metagross is way more comparable. Meta is pretty splashable on many teams, but believe it or not there are cases when you would use jirachi over meta that aren't "I'd use this way less versatile mon just so I can flinch fast donphans to death like 20% of the time." It has 2 niches: Item and Fire Punch. By item I mostly mean general speed with scarf AND more importantly the ability to trick the scarf away (with item you can also run other sets but I'm not gonna pretend steelium or normalium are actual sets). Trick allows it to beat stall / fat pokemon that don't have zmoves. Trick + Rest is a really cool fatbreaker that takes advantage of jira's good stall matchup. Fire punch is another move that lets Jira beat mons such as Kartana, Ferrothorn and genesect, mons metagross would almost always lose to. Does metagross generally outclass jirachi? Sure. But there are cases where you don't need to have EQ or Tpunch on your steel psychic type and would rather have other options.

My second point is that you really do not have to bend over backwards to have jirachi checks. Look at the sample teams. Literally all of them have good jirachi measures. Why? Because when you prepare for metagross you often prepare for jirachi. Meta threats like gyara, charx, opposing metagross, landot, zygod and more are on many teams and are consistent jirachi checks. You don't have to use Physdef Incineroar to worry about scary B rank threat, Jirachi, people.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
As competitive metagame I meant, a metagame that is comparable to other metagames. A metagame where a player should use different Pokemon to attain his goal, spamming the same Pokemon isn't something we want because it isn't something that you should do. A lot of people been saying this but without Species Clause in action only bad teams will utilize the same Pokemon because they do not cover anything which is why I see no reason to remove it. Species Clause doesn't add nor remove anything in the competitive aspect and I've said that a lot of times.
I understand that diversity is a subjective concept that some people want out of 1v1, but if you're looking to make 1v1 like other metagames or tiers, you've picked the wrong metagame to lead. Making 1v1 like the tiers requires understanding that there will always be things that become quite literally OverUsed. Every metagame will have its top grouping of viable and/or most used mons, and so will 1v1, regardless of Species Clause's presence or lack thereof. When something has as little impact over the metagame as Species Clause does, why restrict it at all? It's the same reasoning that got Blaziken and Power Construct freed in the first place; nobody expected them to do much. I understand that pokemon and clauses aren't exactly the same thing, but the case still stands that the 1v1 metagame is not being handled consistently.

I didn't mean to say that AG isn't competitive nor other OMs that do not allow Species Clause such as Balanced Hackmons, I'm saying that both are built around the idea that Anything is allowed. It's in AG's name, Anything Goes which have no other clauses put in action and Balanced Hackmons is also a hack metagame that doesn't have the same clause as regular game play. Whereas 1v1 is a metagame that follows other metagames clauses and should stay that way. Being like both AG and BH is a bad thing for the metagame because it defies the true origins of the metagame.
AG and BH are the epitome of not being competitive, they are literally metagames without rules, even leader of BH, Flint, agrees that the "Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons is just there to signify that the metagame is more balanced than regular Hackmons, not that BH itself is balanced. The main reason they're in the bigger OM tours is because people like them. Practically nobody cares about what a metagame was built off of, people only care about what the metagame is now.


I don't have anything to say on this point, but removing Species Clause amplify the guessing games, yes both players are put in a prediction, both players might predict wrong but that's not the point. As I said having Species Clause limit more and more the endless possibilities in a positive way, removing it would create more and more possibilities, more and more guessing, less diversity in some teams forcing a whole look at team building and playing in general.
I cannot argue against this point, teams that take advantage of no Species Clause will definitely be able to provide the same illusion that Charizard has on just about any pokemon with multiple sets to use. I personally don't see a detraction in diversity as a bad thing, but again, it's a subjective thing and I'm not a tier leader.


Removing Species Clause in generation 6 was a mistake, and if it never happened back then, would people call for it now? No. Also there's a huge difference between Gen 6 and 7, on one note we have access to new items (Z-moves), and another note we are taking the metagame more seriously at this moment, which translates into more and more suspects, more tournaments, a room and everything we have ever done and have more planned. And to be able to prosper we have to be taken more and more seriously, so this is a way to solidify 1v1 as a competitive and unique metagame.
Hypotheticals are frowned upon, Deggy. I could make the same kind of claim with "If OU didn't unban Kyurem-Black, would we ever consider it?". Other than that, I can't really argue with anything else here, since it's all based on opinions, and since you're a leader, your opinion is law. Although, I can at least offer my opinion that you're a poopy butthead :^)

I also have nothing to say regarding the second portion. But there's a difference in banning Pokemon so outclassed or low tiered Pokemon get used and removing the species clause so such overused Pokemon do not get spammed. I have nothing to say to the second portion but the Suspect Philosophy was written while having a Pokemon in mind and not a clause.
I addressed this with you in chat and am excitedly awaiting your explanation on what the difference is.

We also are going to re-work the suspect Philosophy soon tm.
yay


A clause isn't something that can be suspected nor argued, it is something that transcend us.
A clause is just an exception to the main set of rules established. You could say that any kind of ban we've had before now is an added clause to our ruleset, but ultimately, it depends on the beholder's opinion and how they choose to interpret it. If you want to play the role of "Mommy DEG knows what's best", I can't stop you.

I've already said why we can't remove the species clause and I'm going to put it out again, but the only reason why we cannot tolerate this discussion anymore is because; Species Clause DOES NOT BRING ANYTHING to the table. It doesn't bring up positives, nor too much negatives in a competitive way but it brings us negatives in global when we're trying to make the metagame better. You, and everyone else already said it, using multiple Pokemon is bad, why are we even arguing at this point.
Why restrict it in the first place, then? We're not some new kid at school, trying to get the cool kids to notice us. We're a metagame that gains its following through people who like the format, just like AG and BH. If becoming an official metagame means we have to change to some system nobody likes, then maybe we shouldn't be official.

It's like saying eat oranges can kill you and that's why the government banned it without asking, but the people wants to government to allow oranges to be eaten.
Dafuq-

We are not removing Species Clause because:

1) Diversity
Not always a good thing
2) 1v1 isn't an anything allowed nor a hack based metagame
Nobody said it was, and one little clause isn't gonna make it like AG or BH either.
3) We're following other metagames
Other metagames are mostly based on OU or Ubers, 6v6 metagames. Simply put, we do not compare to them.
4) It brings nothing to the table
Poor logic. We should only remove things from the table if it's either too much for the table to handle or if it's so bad that it spoils everything around it.

tl:dr- The community is the 4th leader of 1v1, and we deserve to be treated as such, which means you should start being more public about what your plans for 1v1 are, rather than dropping things on us like this, as well as letting us have an equal say in things when it comes to changing the metagame.
 
Short one:
After reading DEG's post I was going to make a post about how the reasoning behind keeping Species Clause used in his argument was somewhat flawed. I held my tongue until I read the rest of the thread and realized Glyx had already voiced the opinions I was about to. If you skimmed over it (as I often do when a post is long and foreboding) I suggest going back and reading it over because it is well written and makes some good points

Quick Comment: I'm not for or against species clause because it really doesn't make a difference in my eyes and I don't think neither keeping it nor removing it will effect the meta that much

But anyways good job Glyx for such an in depth evaluation of DEG's comments
 

DEG

The night belongs to you
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I understand that diversity is a subjective concept that some people want out of 1v1, but if you're looking to make 1v1 like other metagames or tiers, you've picked the wrong metagame to lead. Making 1v1 like the tiers requires understanding that there will always be things that become quite literally OverUsed. Every metagame will have its top grouping of viable and/or most used mons, and so will 1v1, regardless of Species Clause's presence or lack thereof. When something has as little impact over the metagame as Species Clause does, why restrict it at all? It's the same reasoning that got Blaziken and Power Construct freed in the first place; nobody expected them to do much. I understand that pokemon and clauses aren't exactly the same thing, but the case still stands that the 1v1 metagame is not being handled consistently.
1v1 will never be like other tiers for the reason it's a 3 Pokemon team preview I get that, but you have to make it at least get closer to the line. Yes there's going to be OU Pokemon, and UU Pokemon but it isn't the point and Species Clause will change nothing about that. No, Blaziken and Power Construct do not have minimal impact on the metagame, both are ranked above B which is pretty good for one's Pokemon Viability, both Pokemon get taken into account when building a team. The problem with Species Clause is that it has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to add to the metagame. I don't know why you guys are still fighting over it. You ready do have to find anything to just fight around lol.

AG and BH are the epitome of not being competitive, they are literally metagames without rules, even leader of BH, Flint, agrees that the "Balanced" in Balanced Hackmons is just there to signify that the metagame is more balanced than regular Hackmons, not that BH itself is balanced. The main reason they're in the bigger OM tours is because people like them. Practically nobody cares about what a metagame was built off of, people only care about what the metagame is now.
Lol? There's a difference between Balanced and competitive? A competitive metagame is a metagame that can be played without disturbance of outside factors everytime, a competitive metagame is a metagame that has expert players that do enjoy it. No, the reason they're in bigger OM tours isn't because people like them because they are considered competitive "unlike" (lol) 1v1.


Why restrict it in the first place, then? We're not some new kid at school, trying to get the cool kids to notice us. We're a metagame that gains its following through people who like the format, just like AG and BH. If becoming an official metagame means we have to change to some system nobody likes, then maybe we shouldn't be official.
We're restricting it cause that brings us closer to that point. "nobody likes?" speak for yourself please. Can I at least get a good argument for why you don't like it, arguing over that is dumb, time-consuming and won't bring you anywhere. Removing Species Clause is stupid, is it just for some user to spam the same Pokemon for fun? There's NO COMPETITIVE use for Species Clause, there's NO NEED to remove Species Clauses, and there's NO NEED to discuss that anymore. This is getting old and boring, please find something else to fight over.

tl:dr- The community is the 4th leader of 1v1, and we deserve to be treated as such, which means you should start being more public about what your plans for 1v1 are, rather than dropping things on us like this, as well as letting us have an equal say in things when it comes to changing the metagame.
That tl;dr had nothing to do with the post. The community doesn't have an equal say in decisions. They influence decisions, yes. They force us to suspect something, yes. But that doesn't mean equal, if you're leaving the community decide we'd suspect Tapu Koko, Donphan and more. The community is here to guide us, to open closed doors for leaders to venture and decide if it's appropriate to suspect something or not. And even if it was equal (It's not), the community are 1 while the leaders 3, which makes the vote 3-1 on keeping Species Clause. Thank you!
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
1v1 will never be like other tiers for the reason it's a 3 Pokemon team preview I get that, but you have to make it at least get closer to the line. Yes there's going to be OU Pokemon, and UU Pokemon but it isn't the point and Species Clause will change nothing about that. No, Blaziken and Power Construct do not have minimal impact on the metagame, both are ranked above B which is pretty good for one's Pokemon Viability, both Pokemon get taken into account when building a team. The problem with Species Clause is that it has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to add to the metagame. I don't know why you guys are still fighting over it. You ready do have to find anything to just fight around lol.
You missed the point that people expected Blaziken and Power Construct to suck, hence why they were unbanned in the first place, Power Construct in particular to such an extent that it was able to forego a suspect test unless there's a reason for that which we aren't being told.


Lol? There's a difference between Balanced and competitive? A competitive metagame is a metagame that can be played without disturbance of outside factors everytime, a competitive metagame is a metagame that has expert players that do enjoy it. No, the reason they're in bigger OM tours isn't because people like them because they are considered competitive "unlike" (lol) 1v1.
Fair-



We're restricting it cause that brings us closer to that point. "nobody likes?" speak for yourself please. Can I at least get a good argument for why you don't like it, arguing over that is dumb, time-consuming and won't bring you anywhere. Removing Species Clause is stupid, is it just for some user to spam the same Pokemon for fun? There's NO COMPETITIVE use for Species Clause, there's NO NEED to remove Species Clauses, and there's NO NEED to discuss that anymore. This is getting old and boring, please find something else to fight over.
We don't need to get into any debates over my personal tastes vs yours. I just want any kind of objective fact that shows that we wouldn't be able to get official if we didn't have species clause. UC at least showed us smogon's guidelines for what a competitive metagame should be like, but if Species Clause's presence truly has so little impact over the metagame, as you keep repeating, then perhaps it wouldn't matter to the people who decide whether we become official either?
My belief is open to change if you or anyone else can provide this kind of evidence.


That tl;dr had nothing to do with the post. The community doesn't have an equal say in decisions. They influence decisions, yes. They force us to suspect something, yes. But that doesn't mean equal, if you're leaving the community decide we'd suspect Tapu Koko, Donphan and more. The community is here to guide us, to open closed doors for leaders to venture and decide if it's appropriate to suspect something or not. And even if it was equal (It's not), the community are 1 while the leaders 3, which makes the vote 3-1 on keeping Species Clause. Thank you!
The post wasn't strictly about Species Clause. The main problem I fear is that we, the community, have no impact when it comes to clause changes, which shifts far too much power to the leaders' side. Whether it's one leader, three, or two and a half, it's not fair to the metagame if decisions are completely taken out of the overall community's hands, which is why I've been suggesting a council to assist leading 1v1 a real one, not a council specifically for the VR, filled with actual representatives of the community.
 
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