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Copyediting Arceus-Ice 3/3, 0/2

Discussion in 'Ubers Analyses' started by Aurora, Aug 22, 2017.

  1. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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    [​IMG]

    [OVERVIEW]

    Arceus-Ice's solid offensive typing and good natural bulk make it a useful offensive check to several dangerous Pokemon, such as Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, specially-oriented Arceus-Ground, and Rayquaza. Balance teams that opt for Steel-types that do not resist Ice, such as Ferrothorn and Celesteela, are also vulnerable to Arceus-Ice. Unfortunately, Arceus-Ice's sole resistance to Ice-type moves means that it offers virtually no defensive utility to teams. This is compounded by Arceus-Ice's vulnerability to all entry hazards, especially Stealth Rock, and vulnerability to status, particularly poison. Arceus-Ice's biggest issue, however, is that it is significantly reliant on matchup to function, as it loses to many common Pokemon in Ubers. Many bulky teams in Ubers now opt for Toxapex or Ho-Oh to check Marshadow; both of these Pokemon also happen to easily be able to stop Arceus-Ice depending on what coverage move it runs. Chansey and Blissey often run Confide to deal with Calm Mind Primal Kyogre and Z-Geomancy Xerneas; this also makes them hard stops to Arceus-Ice. The prevalence of Marshadow in Ubers also hurts Arceus-Ice, as Marshadow easily stops Arceus-Ice thanks to its superior Speed and type advantage. This relegates Arceus-Ice to the role of a balance breaker whose effectiveness hinges greatly on matchup, making it difficult to justify for most teams.

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Thunder / Fire Blast
    move 4: Recover
    item: Icicle Plate
    ability: Multitype
    nature: Timid
    evs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    Calm Mind boosts Arceus-Ice's offensive and defensive presence, making it difficult to break through and allowing it to hit harder. Judgment hits most of the Ubers metagame for neutral or super effective damage, OHKOing Zygarde-C, Rayquaza, Yveltal, and Mega Salamence and doing excellent damage to Arceus-Ground. Judgment is also a safe option against Primal Groudon, as well as Steel-types that do not resist Ice, such as Ferrothorn. Thunder gives Arceus-Ice excellent neutral coverage alongside Judgment and hits Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and Toxapex super effectively. Alternatively, Fire Blast ensures Arceus-Ice can better defend itself against Mega Lucario, as well as Steel-types such as Bronzong; however, this leaves Arceus-Ice quite ineffective against bulky Water-types, which can be problematic. Recover is necessary to allow Arceus-Ice to recover health lost from entry hazards or from switching into weak attacks.

    Set Details
    ========

    Maximum investment in HP gives Arceus-Ice solid all-around bulk, while maximum investment in Speed with a Timid nature allows it to Speed tie at worst with Mega Salamence.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Arceus-Ice's bad defensive typing makes getting it into play somewhat challenging. Take advantage of its natural bulk and access to reliable recovery to switch Arceus-Ice into neutral attacks from Pokemon it checks, such as Judgment from support Arceus-Ground. However, be very careful of switching into Pokemon that employ super effective coverage moves, such as V-create Rayquaza; it is often best to scout for these moves first before taking risks with Arceus-Ice. While Arceus-Ice is a good check to the most common Arceus-Ground sets, do not switch Arceus-Ice into Arceus-Ground that feature on offensive teams, as they will more often than not be physically offensive variants that can hit Arceus-Ice hard with with Stone Edge. Arceus-Ice is quite difficult to switch into for offensive teams and certain balanced teams, so Judgment is often a safe option. If the opponent carries hard checks to Arceus-Ice, such as Ho-Oh, do not waste a turn attacking; instead, switch Arceus-Ice out into a check to preserve your momentum. If running Thunder, Arceus-Ice can take advantage of Water-types, such as Arceus-Water, Primal Kyogre, and Toxapex, that attempt to switch into it. If running Fire Blast, use it against predicted Mega Lucario, Bronzong, and Magearna switch-ins. Do not boost with Calm Mind until Arceus-Ice's checks are either severely weakened or removed, as reckless boosting risks inviting in Pokemon such as Ho-Oh and Marshadow. Arceus-Ice has an awful matchup against stall teams due to the prevalence of Confide Blissey and, if it is running Fire Blast, Haze Toxapex. Feel free to play it aggressively or use it to waste the opponent's PP.

    Team Options
    ========

    Stealth Rock setters, such as defensive Primal Groudon, Tyranitar, and Dialga, are good teammates, as Stealth Rock punishes Ho-Oh for switching into Arceus-Ice. Checks to Ho-Oh, such as Mega Salamence, Zygarde-C, Tyranitar, and Primal Groudon, are necessary, as Ho-Oh is a massive threat to Arceus-Ice. Checks to Steel-types, such as Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Mega Lucario, and Mega Blaziken can ensure Arceus-Ice does not totally need to rely on Fire Blast to remove them. Arceus-Ice needs checks to Mega Lucario on its team; Aegislash, defensive Primal Groudon, and Marshadow can fill this role. Rock Tomb Marshadow in particular appreciates Arceus-Ice's ability to get rid of Zygarde-C and can remove Ho-Oh and Rock-types in response. If Arceus-Ice is not running Thunder, solid checks to Water-types, such as Primal Groudon, are required. Pokemon capable of removing entry hazards, such as Giratina-O, are needed to cover Arceus-Ice's nasty vulnerability to Stealth Rock and, to a lesser extent, Toxic Spikes. Alternatively, Mega Diancie can act as a more offensive deterrent to hazard setters with Magic Bounce and a check to Ho-Oh that benefits from Arceus-Ice's ability to deal with defensive Arceus-Ground if Mega Lucario is dealt with properly by the rest of the team. Pokemon that can deal with stall teams, such as Mega Gengar, Mega Gyarados, and Swords Dance Primal Groudon, are absolutely necessary due to Arceus-Ice's uselessness against them; Mega Gengar and Primal Groudon can also beat Clefable, which walls Arceus-Ice.

    [STRATEGY COMMENTS]
    Other Options
    =============

    Refresh can be considered, as no Pokemon is immune to Ice-type Judgment and it lets Arceus-Ice defeat Lugia very easily and 1v1 defensive Primal Kyogre. However, Blissey and Chansey commonly run Confide, which makes Refresh Arceus-Ice a terrible stallbreaker. Furthermore, forgoing Fire Blast or Thunder for Refresh leaves Arceus-Ice vulnerable to many of the tier's Steel-types and bulky Water-types, respectively. Icium Z can be used to give Arceus-Ice one use of a powerful Subzero Slammer, but running Icium Z forces Arceus-Ice to be saddled with the weak Ice Beam or inaccurate Blizzard after Subzero Slammer is used, which makes it an inconsistent option. A more offensive EV spread with Calm Mind and three attacks can make Arceus-Ice quite difficult to switch into, but this significantly cuts into Arceus-Ice's durability and makes getting it into play safely extremely difficult.

    Checks and Counters
    ===================

    **Blissey and Chansey**: Blissey and Chansey take very little damage from even a boosted Arceus-Ice and can stall it out with Toxic. While Arceus-Ice can potentially pose a challenge if it is carrying Refresh, Blissey and Chansey commonly employ Confide, meaning even Refresh Arceus-Ice often struggles to break through either Pokemon.

    **Fighting-types**: Life Orb Marshadow outspeeds Arceus-Ice and can OHKO it with Close Combat after a very small amount of prior damage. Marshadium Z Marshadow requires Stealth Rock damage to achieve this benchmark. Marshadow is also bulky enough to switch into an unboosted Judgment if necessary and force Arceus-Ice out. Mega Lucario beats any Arceus-Ice that forgoes Fire Blast, as it can take Judgment and Thunder, even being able to safely switch into the former move, and OHKO Arceus-Ice with Close Combat in response. Fire Blast OHKOes Mega Lucario after a small amount of chip damage, however. Pheromosa cannot switch into any of Arceus-Ice's attacks but can revenge kill it with High Jump Kick. Mega Blaziken and Mega Mewtwo X can both stomach Judgment and Fire Blast and remove Arceus-Ice with Low Kick or use it as setup fodder.

    **Ho-Oh**: Ho-Oh can easily stomach Judgment and can retaliate with a super effective Sacred Fire. Arceus-Ice becomes more difficult to deal with if Stealth Rock is up on Ho-Oh's side of the field, however. In particular, a boosted Thunder has a small chance to OHKO Ho-Oh after Stealth Rock.

    **Certain Steel-types**: Magearna takes little damage from Fire Blast and can turn Arceus-Ice's Calm Mind boosts against it with Heart Swap or annoy it with Pain Split. Arceus-Steel is bulky enough to survive even a boosted Fire Blast and OHKO Arceus-Ice with Corkscrew Crash after a small amount of prior damage.

    **Rock-types**: Arceus-Rock will win against Arceus-Ice in a Calm Mind war due to its type advantage. Mega Tyranitar shrugs off even boosted Judgment and can use Arceus-Ice as setup fodder for Dragon Dance or eliminate it with Stone Edge.

    **Water-types**: If Arceus-Ice chooses not to run Thunder, it finds itself completely walled by Water-types. Toxapex can easily stall out Arceus-Ice by removing its boosts with Haze and using Recover to heal any damage taken from stray attacks. Arceus-Water can Toxic stall Arceus-Ice lacking Thunder Calm Mind Primal Kyogre can overwhelm Arceus-Ice with Primordial Sea- and STAB-boosted Origin Pulse, while defensive Primal Kyogre that carry Toxic can stall Arceus-Ice out. All of these Pokemon struggle to deal with Arceus-Ice carrying Thunder, however.

    **Deoxys-A**: Deoxys-A outspeeds Arceus-Ice and easily OHKOes it with Superpower, but cannot switch into it at all.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 at 9:25 PM
    Stevan's Sceptile, Cheryl. and CKW like this.
  2. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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  3. Minority

    Minority Numquam Vincar
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    Fire Blast is heavily stressed in this analysis for its utility vs. Mega Luke and I think this is overblown. +2 Mega Luke OHKOs this set with BP after SR, so unlike Fire Blast Arc Water you're not any semblance of a check. The only thing that Fire Blast does vs. Mega Luke is basically make it more apprehensive about clicking SD. This is a shallow degree of utility (compared to Arc Water at least), especially when a weakened Arceus-Ice can be threatened with an OHKO from unboosted Bullet Punch.

    All of this is basically to question why Mega Luke is presented as the primary justification for Fire Blast, even to the point of having it unslashed and not really elaborating on much else Fire Blast accomplishes. If Fire Blast is to remain unlashed, I think there needs to be a much better argument as to why you're almost always going to run it over moves such as Thunder or Refresh.
  4. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Not QC, just some suggestions:
    "while Arceus-Ice is a good check to the most common Arceus-Ground sets, do not switch Arceus-Ice into Arceus-Ground that feature on offensive teams, as they will more often than not be physically offensive variants that can catch Arceus-Ice out with Stone Edge"
    I'd say to make sure that it's not the SD variant via scouting, maybe.
    In addition, Certain Steels could be reworded to Specially Defensive Steels.
    Perhaps also merge Marshadow with Fighting types in C&C?
  5. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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    I was teetering on whether or not I wanted to slash Thunder but you raise a good point. I'll slash it with Fire Blast. I still don't think Refresh is worth slashing, though; stall has too many countermeasures to monoattacking Arceus-Ice for Refresh variants to have a chance of functioning against them (Haze Toxapex, Confide blobs etc.)
    Stevan's Sceptile likes this.
  6. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I'm thinking Thunder might be slightly better than Fire Blast since it keeps coverage on Celesteela + you still hit Ferrothorn neutral with Ice. Hitting Toxapex is really important since this set otherwise accomplishes nothing against pex squads.

    Otherwise good to go, QC 1/3
    Aurora likes this.
  7. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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    swapped Thunder / Fire Blast slashings and moved Water-types down and Steel-types up in C&C
  8. CKW

    CKW (^v^)
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    Seeing how Arceus-Ice has so many issues in the current meta, might as well add the lure set of Stone Edge, Judgment, Fire Blast / Thunder, and Recover.

    Everything else good.Go ahead and write this up!

    QC 2/3
  9. ChrystalFalchion

    ChrystalFalchion
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    I'm not QC, but wouldn't a spread of 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nautre be better? Ice is the worst defensive typing in the game, so that bulk doesn't help it as much as it helps other formes, and the extra power makes it a much better balance breaker.

    +1 8 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 184-218 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 226-266 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 8 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 252 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 180-213 (51.1 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 8 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 150-178 (46.2 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Ice Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 184-218 (56.7 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    +1 8 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 177-208 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 214-253 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Zero Wing likes this.
  10. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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    I'd rather run a bulky spread. Arceus-Ice is obviously not the most apt Arceus forme from a defensive point of view but running max HP gives you more breathing room against Mega Salamence. The only really remarkable calc there is Ho-Oh but I do not think that justifies turning into literal glass.
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  11. waytogo24

    waytogo24

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    upload_2017-10-12_17-13-19.png

    Not sure who added this to the main Smogon page, but Arceus-Ice can't run z-moves cause it has to hold Icicle Plate.
  12. Decaffeinated

    Decaffeinated

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    Z-Crystals do change Arceus's type, they just don't change the type of Judgement. So Arceus-Ice can run Subzero Slammer, it just has to use Ice Beam instead of Judgement, which is mentioned in the analysis that's currently uploaded to Smogon under the Moves section
  13. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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  14. Nayrz

    Nayrz beautiful lie
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    I'd probably note Icium Z + STAB in OO to explain its downsides and at least recognize it as a "thing". It makes more sense to note it with the offensive spread as that is what such a thing would run anyway, and CM + 3 is probably worse than it. The rest of this is good.

    QC 3/3
  15. Aurora

    Aurora i'll probably play more ubers when USUM comes out
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    added it to OO but kept CM + 3 in last place, ready for GP

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