CAP 23 CAP 23 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

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Volt Absorb is among my favourites. We completely prevent a move that invalidates trapping as a style and can trap mon that other trappers can't, making us a better trapper. An extra immunity is always nice in general, as is an extra source of recovery. Electric is popular coverage too. Being able to trap more pokemon is good for making trapping viable. That means we can now target pokemon that would otherwise just escape.

Rough Skin/Iron Barbs is something I like even more as it punishes both Volt Switch and U-Turn. Great against things lke Lando.
 
Rough Skin/Iron Barbs is something I like even more as it punishes both Volt Switch and U-Turn. Great against things lke Lando.
How does that punish Volt Switch?

Anyway, I like suggestions of Volt Absorb, not actually a huge fan of Comatose, I also think a setup move would be good to integrate though we're not at that part yet, but we can consider that for the perspective of abilities. Tough Claws seems alright, not as much of a fan of Aerilate or Strong Jaws.
 
Why specifically would we need Aerilate or Strong Jaw to use this type of coverage move effectively compared to just using something like Tough Claws?

The fact is Aerialte/Strong Jaw hits stronger than Tough Claws on the right Pokémon. Just look at these calcs on a 130 bst Attack CAP23

252 Atk Tough Claws Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 160-189 (44 - 52%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Garchomp Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Strong Jaw Garchomp Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 174-206 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

It is not a detail, it is or a 2HKO or a 3HKO (without Z-Move). 130 is already very high for a CAP, we are not going to exaggerate either in giving it an astronomic bst Attack.

In bold, it means we are able to 2HKO the mon (without Z-Move, 130 Attack, at least 20% chance to 2HKO). I do not add the calcs to avoid to write an hideous post but you can check it on calculator Showdown. I took the most common sets :

Tough Claws : Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos
Aerilate : Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos
Strong Jaw : Tomohawk, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Arghonaut, Pyroak, Mollux, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos

I will write later on my opinion between these three abilities.

---

I would like to add something. We are talking about an offensive CAP, to get only Toxic-stall to beat Pokemon we have targeted is anti-concept.
Lucario or moderators can correct me if I'm wrong but I think we are focusing on a trapper set for the moment and how to beat the Pokemon listed above in trapping them. A band set do not really work with trapping.
Thanks you for these calcs, it realy helps to see the advantages and inconvenients of the 3 abilties!
The problem with aerilate and strong jaws is that if CAP23 has those abilities, it would be to obvious that it can kill it's targets and they are nevers going to switch in.
And any way, if we can 2HKO them, what is the interest of trapping? If CAP23 can 2HKO tangrowgth or zapdos, the most common set is going to be a choice item, like a band to make big hole in the opposite team.
I think that we need to find an other way to destroy our targets than just dealing massif damage. For example taunt has a great synergy with trapping and block the opposit pokemon's recovering move, making the 2HKO not nessecery. There, i think that rest-early bird has a niche: the trapped opponent is forced to hit us and we will take damage on each trapping, which means that a recovering option is a good thing and rest has the advantage of removing haxx-statu of scald and sludge bomb.
An other way to kill the trapped pivot is the setup (for exemple sword dance). If we are going this way, defensive ability (like comatose or early bird) are usefull since you want to stay on the terrain when you used some sword dances.
We can also kill our targets with a Z-move, but i don't see any ability working especialy well with Z-move, so i'm not going to talk about it.
 
How does that punish Volt Switch?

Anyway, I like suggestions of Volt Absorb, not actually a huge fan of Comatose, I also think a setup move would be good to integrate though we're not at that part yet, but we can consider that for the perspective of abilities. Tough Claws seems alright, not as much of a fan of Aerilate or Strong Jaws.
Whoops! Volt Switch does not make contact. Guess it's just U-Turn then (though, to be fair, U-Turn is usually used over Volt Switch when both are an option)
 
How does that punish Volt Switch?

Anyway, I like suggestions of Volt Absorb, not actually a huge fan of Comatose, I also think a setup move would be good to integrate though we're not at that part yet, but we can consider that for the perspective of abilities. Tough Claws seems alright, not as much of a fan of Aerilate or Strong Jaws.
U-Turners take damage on switch out. Helpful for wearing down Landorus. But eh, it doesn't aid with trapping, Rocky Helment would accomplish the same thing, and ultimately, Ice coverage is better and more pro-concept to kill land doggo.

I support Volt Absorb for our slate. It's very pro concept, as it helps on trap Volt Switch Zapdos and Rotom W. I still feel like status is the bigger issue, but I'd be happy with this over mindless "needz more damage!" ability.
 

snake

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It seems like there's a lot of confusion about luring in threats. It's almost impossible to "make" a lure. No matter what we give CAP23, if it's acceptable counterplay to a potential check, it's going to be scared to swap in. So why should we give CAP23 this sort of counterplay?

Put simply, here's how CAP23 will play, given a few conditions (which I think are very easy to meet). If it's sturdy enough to live throughout a match, eventually, between...

a) Trapping down the opposing Pokemon that can tank hits and swapping out to a safe counter, essentially making lots of momentum based switches
and
b) CAP23's teammates chipping down CAP23's checks and counters

...the opposing team is going to run into some problems. When CAP23 is against something it forces out, the opponent's going to be mulling over the options:

a) Oh no, is CAP23 going to hit my Pokemon A really hard with strong moves? If so, should I swap to my defensive Pokemon B to actually tank the hit and not lose Pokemon A, my wincon?
or
b) Oh no, is CAP23 just going to trap my defensive Pokemon with Spirit Shackle? If so, should I risk staying in?

That's the sort of situation where's it's very nice to actually be able to dismantle these defensive Pokemon. These really hard decisions is going to be the heart of CAP23/ If we can't dismantle the defensive threats we decided on, then they either simply wall us, or we have to resort to stallish techniques to break through them.

With that said, I think in some way or another, we need to focus on the list of defensive Pokemon we're trying to target. We shouldn't be focusing on fringe benefits from blocking a few Pokemon's Volt Switch or gaining an attack boost from a few sources of stat droppers. Comatose, Shield Dust, Tough Claws, Aerilate, or Strong Jaw actually address what we want from CAP23 and what we decided on in the threatlist. I'm still thinking about which one of these to support, but I like all of these a lot.

Side note, Stakeout is absolutely ridiculous - balancing a Pokemon that conditionally has double damage will ultimately result in a mediocre CAP as we try to balance it. I can see some merit in Analytic I guess, but it's very far from one of my favorites.

This is how I see CAP23 anyway. If anyone wants to object to my viewpoint, feel free.
 
One of the reasons Ghost/Dragon is our typing is a resistance to Bug and Electric type moves, and thus Volt Absorb isn't needed. I, like so many others think, believe that Analytic or Stakeout shouldn't be the ability due to the aforementioned problems that it could cause (Ridiculous neutral STAB coverage on top of punishing either staying in or swapping into your check). I would say that us as a thread need to decide between going for the more supportive approach in Comatose or Shield Dust, or the more aggressive options in Tough Claws, Aerialate and Strong Jaw. Out of those 3, I would be the most pro-Tough Caws due to the ability to power through the trapped Pokemon due to the power provided by the ability, whereas the other 2 are more niche options for fulfilling the same role. Tough claws also allows us to actually chip bulky pivots such as Landorus and Krillowatt, due to how they're naturally going to come in on us moreso than say a Cyclohm or a Tomohawk would.
 

G-Luke

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I do appreciate what is being said here. This is coming from some who can both see, and has even conceded how this point could be seen as valid. But I still think this line of reasoning is very short sighted and misguided. I do not agree with it at all.

I'll try and demonstrate my point further, again by quoting LucarioOfLegends, who I feel put it rather well despite, ironically, intending to speaking AGAINST Analytic/Stakeout.



It was being pointed out that the 'pseudo trapping' abilities of Stakeout/Analytic, make the need or use of Trapping Moves, redundant. When in actually I think that is completely false. They make the prospect of a Trapping Moves a much realer danger. It's the synergy between the two that I feel make the threat of the Trapping move far more compelling. I also think many people as are VASTLY OVERESTIMATING the impact and effective of Stakeout/Analytic in isolation.

The claim is that Stakeout/Analytic are 'pseudo trapping' abilities, therefore 'anti-concept'. But let's assess for a moment what they ACTUALLY DO, and in comparison to other suggested abilities in this thread.

Stakeout/Analytic raise the Attack of the user. For one turn. Only under specific conditions (on a switch-in). A condition that is, in fact, dictated by the OPPONENT, and not the user at all. Their Attack boost is, limited, time dependent(very), circumstantial, controllable and predictable.
Where as there are other suggested Abilities such as Adaptability/Tough Claws/Strong Jaw, which all raise the users Attack INDEFINITELY for the entire duration of the match. And none share many, if any, of the drawbacks of Stakeout/Analytic.

I want to make it clear that I don't actually have any issue with the above mention abilities for this concept. In fact I'm rather in support of them for varies reasons that they do help progress the CAP's mission statement. But I bring them up to compare in stark contrast to Stakeout/Analytic. And I pose the question that, if we follow the logic that this thread has largely adopted about Stakeout/Analytic, would the above three Abilities not also be 'anti-concept' (in not greater so) posed solely on what they actually DO??? Rather than the ill conceived notion of what they 'are' ('pseudo trapping' abilities)?

My fear right now is that Stakeout/Analytic have been unjustifiably labeled as 'anti-concept' base on a false pretense, and there for are simply being dismissed without further thought. Which means they are not even being given the proper chance to have their viability and merits discussed or explored at all.


Edit:



In fairness, I don't really think much of this is reasonable way to invalidate Analytic/Stakeout either.

Other abilities are toted for their aim to target specific Pokemon we want to check/counter (which I also agree is a worth while endeavor) but is by their own definition also very limiting. It's also inferred that Analytic/Stakeout will not manage any of these specific targets, where as moments later it is explained how they might actually hit too hard and deal with too much?!? I see a lack of consistency here.

There are a lot of assumption being made here about 'how hard we will potentially hit' and 'how fast we will be' compared to out checks/counter list. Also how does, 'just run Band and be capable of deleting Pokemon', not also equally ably to other Attack Up Abilities??

We still have an an entire Stats, and Movepool process to go through in which we will far more closely define what and how we want to check specific threats, based on any Abilities we choose. This will go a long way to mitigating any concerns we have about any of that at this point. We have a clever, sensible and experienced community here, who know how to build a balanced CAPMon.
In a nutshell, Stakeout not only has a Pursuit-esq effect on moves, making trapping moves less mandatory, Stakeout actually lets us beat many counters.

This is assuming that the CAP has a similar power level to Garchomp - the example most ppl are comfortable using.

252 Atk Stakeout Garchomp Spirit Shackle (160) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Losing that much health makes Fini nowhere near a counter and actually dies to a follow up attack.


252 Atk Stakeout Garchomp Spirit Shackle (160) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

After taking that much damage, non Protect variants lose to CAP23

252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 204-241 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Samething for Celesteela.

Infact, the only counter that can still consistently counter is Skarmory, thats to its ridiculous bulk and ability to reliably heal off Stakeout damage.

NO TO STAKEOUT

I agree with snakerattler in the fact that while punishing Landorus and blocking VSwitch is proconcept, it is not the biggest threats and concerns to CAP23, as actually being able to beat the trap and dismantle section and alleviating CAP23's vunerability to Status due to the stay in and dispatch nature of the mon. Leave Defiant and Volt Absorb for Secondary Ability discussion.

Personally I believe before abilities are chosen, we should decide which one of the we need to address more.
To me it will eventually boil down to Comatose vs Tough Claws, as the others to me are either redundant compared to its competition (Shield Dust) or way too situational for a Primary ability (Strong Jaw) since its only using ONE move to benefit from it.

My gut is telling me Tough Claws, but my mind is telling me Comatose is the funnier choice. (I mean its not hard to disallow Sleep Talk. Tomohawk doesn't get it for example) but I would be very happy with either
 

reachzero

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Since the topic of status has come up several times, I thought I would mention that since CAP 23 already resists Discharge, Scald and Lava Plume, it would actually be pretty simple to run Substitute and arrange our stats to not be broken by these moves; thus CAP 23 without a defensive ability can reasonably handle status moves, while CAP 23 with a defensive ability can only really boost its offensive power by raising its offensive stats, which is tricky business when our counters are dependent on sheer bulk rather than typing.

On the other hand, I feel Analytic is being brought up because people are confused regarding the point of trap moves. Analytic punishes switching, so trapping a Pokemon actually makes it less effective. The only real point I could see to Analytic would be that it hits CAP 23's actual counters much harder when they switch in, and I fail to see how that is a positive.

Finally, differentiating between Tough Claws and Strong Jaw is pretty simple: Tough Claws is a generalised ability that gives us some flexibility in terms of movepool, in exchange for a lower multiplier than Strong Jaw. Strong Jaw puts all of its power into essentially (for this CAP) two moves: Psychic Fangs and Ice Fang. If you believe that boosting those two moves is sufficient to adequately cover the whole target and dismantle list, Strong Jaw is preferable. If you would prefer to boost, say, Flying coverage and your Dragon STAB, Tough Claws is your choice. Both, I feel, are acceptably strong for the purposes of this concept, though I personally prefer Tough Claws.
 

jas61292

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To be honest, I actually really do not know what ability I think is best here. A lot of options have been thrown out, and none of them have really grabbed me. That said, I am very highly leaning towards a more defensive ability. Stopping or weakening status with something like Immunity, Shield Dust or Shed Skin would be ideal to me as it limits the options bulkier Pokemon have against us without being so strong as to outright change any matchups by themselves. That being said, I do not like Comatose, as I feel that goes too far defensively and opens up a lot of easily abusable options we are best off avoiding.

But, even though I don't have the strongest feelings on any one ability, I do feel strongly that we absolutely need to avoid any ability that obviously targets on specific Pokemon, as we will not lure and trap anything we are always obviously beating due to ability. I believe this applies most strongly to Aerialate, which is so specific to Tomohawk and co that it will never come up, because they will never switch in when we have it. However, it also strongly applies to Strong Jaw, whose viability is so strongly tied to specific targeted moves that it limits what is actually going to want to switch in.

While I prefer Defensive abilities, if we do go offensive, something like Tough Claws or Guts or whatnot, that is a generic power boost and is not specifically targetting anything is probably ideal. Tough Claws specifically also has the nice trait of not boosting Spirit Shackle, allowing us to actually allow us to potentially give reasons not to always run it 100% of the time, even if it is still a fantastic move.
 

david0895

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Thanks to snake for the intervention and the clarification. Looking to the abilities that we should focus, Comatose is definitely better than Shield Dust since the first cover every status problem. For the power abilities Aerilate and Strong Jaw upgrade some moves than can cover only a part of the "target and dismantle" section and I think that this is bad. That's why I prefer Tough Claws (Adaptability should be better because it boosts the Ghost STAB, but I don't know if we can still discuss it).

Choosing from one of the two I prefer Tough Claws / Adaptability because despite Comatose allows CAP23 to 2HKO its targets without the risk of being crippled from status, we need to consider that our targets will come into CAP23 so a stronger option is preferred to finish them without the risk of being stalled.

Shortly: Comatose is safer, Tough Claws / Adaptability are faster
 

nyttyn

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Finally, differentiating between Tough Claws and Strong Jaw is pretty simple: Tough Claws is a generalised ability that gives us some flexibility in terms of movepool, in exchange for a lower multiplier than Strong Jaw. Strong Jaw puts all of its power into essentially (for this CAP) two moves: Psychic Fangs and Ice Fang. If you believe that boosting those two moves is sufficient to adequately cover the whole target and dismantle list, Strong Jaw is preferable. If you would prefer to boost, say, Flying coverage and your Dragon STAB, Tough Claws is your choice. Both, I feel, are acceptably strong for the purposes of this concept, though I personally prefer Tough Claws.
strong jaw is literally only just for psychic fangs hitting 127.5 BP.
strong jaw ice fang hits 97.5 BP.
tough claws ice punch hits 97.5 BP, ice hammer is 100 BP without tough claws and 130 BP with it. psychic fang's BP bump is the only thing that it has going for it over tough claws. it's otherwise an objectively inferior ability, as ice hammer already exists without tough claws and with tough claws ice punch is the same as strong jaw ice fang.

also accuracy doesnt matter here because ice fang is 95%, ice punch is 100%, and ice hammer is 90%. 5% different is inconsequential between ice fang and ice hammer, and makes ice punch slightly superior.
 
I'd like to see more discussion on Guts. I can see the arguments against Comatose, and I can see arguments for Tough Claws. Guts is sort of the middle ground between them. Guts also synergies really well with our typing, as it resists Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge and poisoning moves like Sludge Wave.

Want to run a speedy offensive build? Run a Flame Orb and increase damage output to Band levels, in exchange for the ability to switch moves and some burn damage each turn. Works in place of Tough Claws, but with the benefit of switching into burn moves. Tapu Fini still works as a cool counter by MT preventing the Orb from activating.

Want a more tanky build? Go with an Assault Vest or Leftovers. Burn drops won't matter with damage output, and getting nailed with Toxic will screw defensive mons. Perhaps even a Rest+Sleep Talk set, as sleep gets the Guts boost too.

Want a lure something specific with a Z item? Well switching into status is actually beneficial here too! Plus, Tough Claws wouldn't help here anyway.


-------

Guts works as a compromise ability between the offensive/defensive camp.
 
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reachzero

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Guts is a really efficient compromise solution, you aren't wrong. There are three drawbacks that I can see.

The first and most obvious is that Guts boosts the damage of Spirit Shackle as well, making our Attack stat something we need to carefully manage. We want our coverage to be really strong, but if Spirit Shackle 3HKOs Celesteela (it would with base 120 Attack, for instance), CAP 23 will be very hard indeed to deal with.

The second is that much like Aerilate, Guts gives you essentially a spammable third STAB in Facade, which doesn't affect Steels too much but does keep Dark types that aren't Bisharp or Tyranitar from even thinking of switching in. Depending on the stats involved, you could probably argue that Spirit Shackle/Facade/Dragon STAB is already a really optimal set that doesn't even need to think about trapping, and is pretty free to carry whatever it wants in the fourth slot.

The third is the least quantifiable, but we just gave Naviathan Guts, and Colossoil has had it from the beginning, and one thing we have learned is that Guts is really strong, almost as good and as generic as Magic Guard in its own way. Naviathan and Colossoil are limited somewhat in coverage; CAP 23 with Guts would have excellent coverage.

Guts is a really efficient solution for this, I can't deny that. But the power and ease of use involved make me nervous.
 
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snake

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If I may add to reach's detailed post, Guts also makes a lot of Pokemon very one-dimensional in that they'll almost always go for Flame Orb as the preferred item. Sure, other items are options, but most of the time it'll be Flame Orb because it's that good. If Flame Orb wasn't a thing, and it was unreliable for it to activate, I'd totally be behind Guts, but as it is now, it'd be a pretty big balancing act, and it'd effectively limit how diverse CAP23 can actually be.
 
I'm not trying to mini-Mod here, but this is a question that I myself am genuinely curious about too and so far nobody has addressed it.
Currently, the biggest concerns with the more defensively oriented abilities is that CAP23 will not have enough power to be able to get through most of our Target and Dismantle section, and they would just stall us out with recovery and chip damage. Shasimo showed through calcs how even 130 Attack isn't enough to be able to kill most of our Target and Dismantle Pokemon is a reasonable amount of turns. I'd like to know the ways that CAP23 would actually be beating our Target and Dismantle section if we were to choose that defensive ability.
I would answer it myself, but I'm really against defensive abilities atm so I couldn't tell you.
 
If we want to make trapping viable, we have to have solutions for trapping's biggest problems. Electric immunity solves one of them, making Volt Switch unusable against us, meaning we can trap things other trappers can't, which makes trapping more worthwhile. It means we can trap and therefore target more of the pivots we want to. Such as Zapdos, for example. A trapper who is escapable fails as a trapper. Abilities like Volt Absorb (and Motor Drive and Lightning Rod) therefore really improve our abilities as a trapper and help us target more of the pokemon we want to target. What's more, it prevents most forms of paralysis (our ghost typing prevents more of them. In fact, are there any left that would still affect us?), meaning we can't lose our ability to dismantle from parahax. Resistance to electric doesn't stop paralysis.

Similarly, abilities like Defiant prevent our nukes from being weakened and therefore help us attack out targets. They also prevent another weakness of trappers (Parting Shot) from being as much of a weakness. Intimidators scare away physical attackers and we don't want to be scared away from a target. This is especially relevant to Lando, who is near the top of our target list.

Aerilate and Strong Jaw encourage us to run very predictable attacks, which is not what we wanted and not only take away space in our moveslots for trapping, but encourage us to be all out attackers or set up sweepers instead of trappers. They're abilities that help non-trappers more than trappers.

Guts means almost all will use Flame Orb, which we don't want, burning ourselves puts us on timer, encouraging us to spam attacks instead of setting up traps, which we really don't want, we'd have to balance out attack, meaning non-flame orb sets will miss out on KOs which we don't want. It's an ability for sweepers, not trappers. If you really want to punish our foes for statusing us, more pro-concept would be Synchronize. Though I'm not thrilled by that either.

I do think preventing status is not a bad idea, and if you really want to target one in paticular, burn is the one to target, but I do think Comatose and Shield Dust are at last acceptable.
 

nyttyn

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Currently, the biggest concerns with the more defensively oriented abilities is that CAP23 will not have enough power to be able to get through most of our Target and Dismantle section, and they would just stall us out with recovery and chip damage. Shasimo showed through calcs how even 130 Attack isn't enough to be able to kill most of our Target and Dismantle Pokemon is a reasonable amount of turns. I'd like to know the ways that CAP23 would actually be beating our Target and Dismantle section if we were to choose that defensive ability.
so let's assume 130 attack for a second - this isn't the exact number needed, and there's merit in values above and below this, but it's in the rough neighborhood of what we need to take on our dismantle list without a ability

also assume brave bird. sky attack will pull better numbers in exchange for being an ass attack otherwise (which will at least have some merit since cap 23 can keep the opponent from swapping out). i'll also bring up psychic fangs where relevant. electric and fire coverage would nail some of these things but will not be considered as they fuck with our C&C list. there are other ways as well, such as toxic + recover for some of them, perish trapping, set-up, etc but i will put those to one side for now since they'll work with most attack values.

Tomohawk -252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 350-414 (84.5 - 100%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 222-262 (53.6 - 63.2%)
A clean kill. Spirit Shackle into Supersonic Skystrike will win without recoil if tomo does not recover the next turn, but otherwise Supersonic into Brave Bird will almost always suffice.

Toxapex - 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 214-252 (70.3 - 82.8%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 114-136 (37.5 - 44.7%)
Again, very clean kill, even if Toxapex predicts with a recover.

Tangrowth 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 374-442 (92.5 - 109.4%)
Super dead boy. Who wants a veggie burger?

Arghonaut - 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 476-560 (118.7 - 139.6%)
Fish n chips also sound tasty...

Pyroak 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 316-374 (71.3 - 84.4%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 202-238 (45.5 - 53.7%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 102-120 (23 - 27%)
Probably the second hardest thing on this list to kill, surprisingly - but it's a fairly trivial matter to spirit shackle fish until he doesn't synthesis, and at that point ctrl + alt + delete. We DO have to outspeed him, but that's not a difficult task in the slightest.

Mollux 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mollux: 444-524 (112.6 - 132.9%)
Peter Molyneux is crying. I’m not sure how to react to this. Legendary game designers don’t often get emotional with the press. But here’s Molyneux, who has made so many games and done so many interviews over the past two decades, openly weeping into my voice recorder.
Mega Venusaur 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 352-416 (96.9 - 114.6%)
blastoise is the best gen 1 starter and you all know it

Zapdos 252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Spirit Shackle vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 163-193 (42.5 - 50.3%)
252+ Atk Giratina-Origin Shattered Psyche (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 217-256 (56.6 - 66.8%)
Probably the hardest thing to kill on this list but it absolutely cannot win a war of attrition against a band set so I don't think it has much business swapping in on us to begin with. Also Z-Ice moves dunk it, albeit at the price of losing to other things on this list (Z-Ice Hammer will dunk Tangrowth but that's about it).

so yeah defensive abiliites don't really require an unreasonable amount of attack to deal with the entirety of our dismantle list. Draco Plate Outrage also handles a number of these mons favorably, and there's a number of other options at varying degrees of attack I am not bringing up here because we can cross that bridge in the stats stage - this post simply exists to dispel the notion that we somehow cannot deal with our C&C list without an offensive ability.
 

Quanyails

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I think the best evidence for a defensive ability to succeed is to look at the existing users of Spirit Shackle and Anchor Shot.

Dhelmise has a high 131 attack, Anchor Shot, and an offensive boosting ability. Instead of "targeting and dismantling", it prefers to use a Choice Banded set with Heavy Slam and other powerful coverage options. For the most part, it prefers the power boost of Heavy Slam over the trapping effects of Anchor Shot. If we go with an offensive ability, we'd probably have to limit CAP 23's coverage to make Spirit Shackle appealing enough to use. (And, flavor-wise, that could paradoxically suggest something with Tough Claws without Shadow Claw. :P) We could definitely do that, but then it becomes harder to lure our targets. In the analysis, Anchor Shot is listed in Other Options. It is mentioned as missing out key KOs but could be used on a Stallbreaker set with Rest and boosting. For CAP 23 to not fall into the same trap, we'd have to limit or encourage the appropriate sort of sets.

Decidueye has Spirit Shackle and has a powerful Z-move to break down Pokemon otherwise too bulky for it. Even if it has superior typing, Scald burns still make it problematic for it to beat its targets. An ability that protects against the effects of burns would make Decidueye's job easier--and CAP 23's.

That being said, the way both of these 'mons dismantle their trapped foe is by means of Swords Dance and recovery. That won't work against 'mons on our targets list like Tomohawk and Arghonaut. All of the non-Poison-type 'mons on our targets list will succumb to Toxic if they can't switch out (and aren't we suggesting Psychic-type coverage to hit these?). Meanwhile, all of the 'mons on our counters list won't be damaged by Toxic. This naturally suggests that Toxic is a good way of doing that "targeting and dismantling". We're not making a stallmon, but some longevity in the form of not being worn by status will help plenty.
 
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First of all, I'm going to completely dismiss Stakeout
I know it's not how you intended it (in regards to my the concerns at the bottom of my own last post), but this actually made me chuckle :) .

So, a greater issue with Analytic isn't necessarily that it's pro or anti concept, but that it fucks with our threats list directly by forcing CAP 23 to have a lower attack stat to be balanced. Thus, our ability to kill them is compromised - as we only get the damage bonus when they switch in, which will almost certainly be on Spirit Shackle, which does not have the raw killing power that our coverage moves would possess for our checks and counters. We need to be around 130 attack for Flynium Z Brave Bird (which is in the upper echelon of power) to fully handle our target and dismantle list - and there is no way in hell we're going to be 130 attack on a Analytic user.

To pre-empt the low speed so everything outfasts us argument: Then why aren't we just giving CAP 23 the base attack it would require in the first place? Which is, in turn, its own bag of issues as several of these mons being able to outfast us with recovery means that we'd have to always get clean OHKOs with Z-Moves, lest they simply Recover their health back, which in turn requires...well, a frankly outrageous amount of attack.

Ergo, Analytic is a really awful idea on that basis alone. It would also encourage Choice Band and Life Orb sets which seek to utilize it and change from a Trap and Eliminate to simply a really strong wallbreaker. And when I say really strong, I mean a slow Choice Band Analytic set wins a 1 on 1 with Skarmory with Spirit Shackle at 120 attack which is completely outrageous, and it only needs 110-115 attack to decisevely 2hko or more most "bulky" pokemon, which is a real problem when there are very few resists to CAP 23's spirit shackle.

Edit: oh yeah also tough claws doesnt boost z-moves which gives it the same issues i listed here, only it also makes our spirit shackle ass as well which is ???? why this????
Much of this argument is based on the assumption that CAP23 will have no other means to dispatch our targets other than pure raw power. I feel this is a fallacy and way ahead of ourselves.

The reason that Stakeout/Analytic are more anti-concept is precisely because of the limitations you mention. They encourage the opponent not to switch, because they know they'll be damaged less if they don't. No matter how dangerous the other abilities are, the opponent knows that if they switch, it won't be increasing the damage they take, so they won't be punished specifically for switching.
I think this very poor reasoning as you are still looking at Analytic/Stakeout from a VERY narrow point of view. This line of thinking is similar to saying something like - "Abilities like Adaptability and Huge Power are not as dangerous as an Ability like Guts, since the opponent knows that so long as they do not Status the Attacker, they will not receive as much damage." - I know the argument may be made that I have gotten the challenge to the opponent in reverse, but the logic it follows is the same. Absurd.

I do appreciate, however, that the argument then goes on to acknowledge the general concerns for Attack Boosting Abilities as a whole. This is candid and consistent.

In a nutshell, Stakeout not only has a Pursuit-esq effect on moves, making trapping moves less mandatory, Stakeout actually lets us beat many counters.

This is assuming that the CAP has a similar power level to Garchomp - the example most ppl are comfortable using.

252 Atk Stakeout Garchomp Spirit Shackle (160) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Fini: 231-273 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Losing that much health makes Fini nowhere near a counter and actually dies to a follow up attack.


252 Atk Stakeout Garchomp Spirit Shackle (160) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

After taking that much damage, non Protect variants lose to CAP23

252 Atk Garchomp Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela: 204-241 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Samething for Celesteela.

Infact, the only counter that can still consistently counter is Skarmory, thats to its ridiculous bulk and ability to reliably heal off Stakeout damage.

NO TO STAKEOUT
I'm sorry, I'm not sure how you came to these conclusions, but these calculation are completely WRONG.

Aside from the fact that you have some how projected the damage output slightly higher than they should be (by roughly 10% -15%, a lot!). You have also failed to then lower the Attack Stat (or base power of Spirit Shackle) by half again after the initial hit.

Even with a MAXIMUM damage roll on every attack it is not even a 3HKO against any of these defenders (except for a slight chance Tapu Fini). And this is coming off an Adamant (not Jolly) Base 130 Attack. Need I remind people that this is already EXTREMELY generous, and getting well ahead of ourselves to an areas of the CAP process that we have not even come close to addressing yet.

Calculations like these are unfairly misleading and they don't even bother address Analytic at all (I realize this was never the intention). I'd also like to point out that, while the analysis of calculations like this is already flawed, how is it that they, and their arguments would not also apply to Adaptability/Tough Claws/Strong Jaw etc... ???
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
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I'm sorry, I'm not sure how you came to these conclusions, but these calculation are completely WRONG.

Aside from the fact that you have some how projected the damage output slightly higher than they should be (by roughly 10% -15%, a lot!). You have also failed to then lower the Attack Stat (or base power of Spirit Shackle) by half again after the initial hit.

Even with a MAXIMUM damage roll on every attack it is not even a 3HKO against any of these defenders (except for a slight chance Tapu Fini). And this is coming off an Adamant (not Jolly) Base 130 Attack. Need I remind people that this is already EXTREMELY generous, and getting well ahead of ourselves to an areas of the CAP process that we have not even come close to addressing yet.

Calculations like these are unfairly misleading and they don't even bother address Analytic at all (I realize this was never the intention). I'd also like to point out that, while the analysis of calculations like this is already flawed, how is it that they, and their arguments would not also apply to Adaptability/Tough Claws/Strong Jaw etc... ???
How are these calcs misleading? Doesn't Stakeout double the power of attacks against a switched in threat?

I don't need to post the regular calcs when common sense prevails.

Tapu Fini is straight up 2HKOd no questions asked. Thats not a counter. Thats barely a check.

As I stated, non Protect versions of Ferrothorn are beaten by CAP23 since it cannot Leech enough health for succumbing to SD boosted attacks, thanks to taking so much initial damage from the switch. Especially since CAP23 can freely set up.

Celesteela is a bit different. It almost always runs Protect and Leftovers, so it may be able to Leech the Stakeout damage. But it still turns a guareenteed win into a bout that may turn Celesteela into fodder. That shouldn't happen AT ALL for a counter.

I am requesting snake_rattler and LucarioOfLegends to Blacklist Stakeout and Analytic from discussion. Any supporters haven't shown any evidence or strong argument as to why it should stay and its derailing the thread.
 
My favorite abilities are:

- volt absorb/lighting rod/motor drive: even if we already resist the electric typing, having an immunity to it is great since it prevent the opponent from switching out via volt-switch. The problem is that u-turn is far more used than volt-switch, so the amonght of pokemon that this ability prenvents from switching is very limited.

Early bird: boosting moves is an intresting option for CAP23, because if you trapped a defensive pokemon, you have free turns to use some sword dances or dragon dances, for example. Then you want to stay on the terrain as long as possible, to use that boost, and a recovering option is appreciable. And rest isn't only giving you 100% HP, but it also removes the status, like burn or paralisy. That's why I think that early bird-rest would be nice

Comatose: this is quite simple: we want to trap defensive pivots. Most of them are using status, so a status immunity is usefull (and it's even more if we want to use boosting moves)

I know all these abilities are defensive, but i think that we can easily kill defensive pokemon with taunt or sword dance.
 
How are these calcs misleading? Doesn't Stakeout double the power of attacks against a switched in threat?

I don't need to post the regular calcs when common sense prevails.
The calcs are misleading cause only the first hit will do that much, the hits after won't do as much.

Also, I'm actually somewhat a fan of Early Bird + Boosting move, I really want it to be setup-based, I think that would be way better.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
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The calcs are misleading cause only the first hit will do that much, the hits after won't do as much.

Also, I'm actually somewhat a fan of Early Bird + Boosting move, I really want it to be setup-based, I think that would be way better.
Considering Tomohawk and Toxapex would use Haze to erase those boosts and Arghonaut has Unaware, the fact we'd need to balance the stats to make CAP23 not inmediately threatening without a boost, and the fact CAP23 could use its targets as setup fodder and potentially becoming it a wincon (which is not the intended use) I think that's far from ideal
 
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