CAP Updates: Cawmodore Discussion (Complete)

[cbrevan]

Welcome to the Cawmodore update thread! In this thread we'll be updating Cawmodore to the standards set by Gamefreak for Sun and Moon.

I'd like to start this thread off with a brief overview of Cawmodore for those unfamiliar with the Pokemon. Cawmodore holds the distinction of being the last CAP built for Gen V, as it was built during the last couple months of that era. In fact, Cawmodore was built so late that it was never legal during the fifth generation, as it was only legal in it's playtest ladder and the subsequent Gen 6 and Gen 7 CAP metagames. Aside from the unique timing of it's creation, Cawmodore in itself is a unique Pokemon built around a single move, Belly Drum. As a result, Cawmodore is tailored made to switch into Pokemon that can't threaten it, boost up with Belly Drum, and attempt to sweep the opposing team in it's entirety through it's combination of high speed, priority, and raw power of it's boosted moves. Cawmodore has proven to be so competent in it's ability to sweep that can often swing the tide of entire matches if it the conditions are right. However, for all Cawmodore has going for it, Cawmodore has a history of fading into obscurity whenever it's checks happen to be popular. Moreover, because of the all or nothing nature of Belly Drum, Cawmodore rarely gets the chance to setup more than once in a match, and because of the HP requirement of Belly Drum, it needs to be preserved to really get a shot at setting up. In terms of checks, Cawmodore has many in defensive Pokemon such as Cyclohm, Zapdos, Unaware Clefable, and faster Pokemon, namely scarfers and Pokemon such as both Greninja formes. This generation has shaken things up quite a bit for Cawmodore, as Z Belly Drum has the potential to allow Cawmodore to work through chip damage to setup, which makes it less of a dead slot on a team. Z moves in general have a lot of undiscovered potential for Cawmodore, although it has seen relatively low usage this generation. Finally, the fast paced nature of Sun and Moon has seemed to proven too much for Cawmodore, as faster threats such as Greninja and it's Ash forme are popular and effective offensive checks for it.

To wrap up this post, I'll be going over the update aspect of this thread, specifically what my expectations are for this thread and how we'll be starting our discussion. Overall, I envision these updates being primarily focused on the flavour and consistency aspects of Cawmodore's potential new movepool. Competitively, I'm not convinced that changes to Cawmodore are justified. This is mainly due to Cawmodore being a niche option in the current metagame. However, I am aware that there have been aspects of Cawmodore some have been dissatisfied with, so I'd like to lead this thread off with a couple days of general discussion on Cawmodore. This way, we can identify and hopefully resolve any present issues some may have with Cawmodore, and go on to the consistency stages with a smooth transition. This discussion will also be to help establish what exactly Cawmodore's identity is and how that identity could relate to additions from subsequent generations.

Here are some guidng questions I've included to help jumpstart discussion. I've also gone ahead and included Cawmodore's original concept to help better frame discussion.

• What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
  
• How may this identity impact our updates?
  
• How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
  
• Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competeive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

Name: Show Me Your Moves!

General Description: A good user of moves with effects not frequently used in the OU metagame.

Justification: There are many moves in Pokémon with great effects, but they often end up unused. Moves such as Gravity, Snatch, and Safeguard have potential in OU, but they are neglected for several reasons: the moves are apparently overshadowed, have poor distribution, or are inefficient compared to another strategy. This CAP uses a combination of typing, ability, and stats to make these underused moves not only feasible, but also capable.

Questions To Be Answered:

• What mechanics of Pokémon determine how viable moves are?--not only the Pokémon's typing, stats, and ability, but also its interaction with playstyles and momentum.
• What new strategies might emerge by giving a new OU Pokémon underused moves?
• What challenges do Pokémon that use lesser-used moves face compared to ones that use a more standard moveset?
• If the Pokémon has options of staple OU moves (high-powered STABs, offensive stat-boosting moves, reliable recovery, Substitute), will those moves be useful to it, even if it's specialized toward a separate and distinct strategy?
• Can underused moves increase other underused moves' viabilities?
• Can one user of a strategy unrecognized in a metagame massively influence a pre-existing playstyle?

 

[Garbagery]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?

bulky mid to late game sweeper/revenge killer. Ussualy shut down by tomo and has only one chance unless u get enough drain punches or wish magic. ~~or roost for defense caw~~ does this job greatly and needs no changes

How may this identity impact our updates?

Just give it smart strike already

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?

none of it's regular moves are uncommon though... so no

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competeive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

hell no, reasons stated above.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
-Cool bird that drums and utterly wrecks once its checks/counters are weakened or eliminated.

How may this identity impact our updates?
-Caw's identity impacts updates by telling us "Yo, Caw is great, it's original identity is intact and great, we don't need to do anything competitively for Caw, let's skip ahead to consistency movepool cboy!" "aye aye captain birdo!" "let's find that lost treasure under the sea!" "but caw already found it, he's so strong and dreamy!"

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
-It's fine, it's cool, it does what it needs to do. It utterly wrecks teams not prepared for it but it balanced by the fact that mons that are prepared for it have generally great utility elsewhere (such as scarf kraken and defensive clohm). And most importantly, it uses the rare move of Belly Drum better than anything else that is seen in the metagame.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.-No. Caw is good, caw is great, Caw's consistency movepool need not wait.

In all seriousness, I think Caw's concept and in-practice identity are still in sync and that it is at an appropriate power level. It does what its supposed to do while being pretty balanced in its current metagame and if anything gen7 has brought it down a tiny bit but not nearly to a degree where we should mess with it and give it more competitive tools.

 

[snake]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
Cawmodore is an effective Belly Drum sweeper, and you have to be able to apply enough offensive pressure to prevent it from setting up. However, that's not a big issue: offensive teams generally don't have such a difficult time with it, balance teams can run a variety of Choice Scarfers (that they should be running anyways), and stall teams can run Unaware Clefable or Pyukumuku to deal with it.

How may this identity impact our updates?
This identity presents a perfect balance of high risk and high reward: if you can wear down Cawmodore's checks well enough and manage to set up, Cawmodore will win the match. However, it's a challenge to accomplish this. If you think Cawmodore seems OP on paper, try it out yourself and see how effective it actually is in high-level play.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
It's definitely fulfilled it's concept: Belly Drum Cawmodore is its only effective set.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

Cawmodore doesn't need any competitive changes. It's not underpowered because it can sweep teams under the correct conditions. It's not overpowered because it's not sweeping every team ever. Updating Cawmodore competitively would be a mistake.

 

[Reviloja753]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?

The best belly-drummer around.

How may this identity impact our updates?

It limits the ways we could improve Cawm.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?

Not really, as the moves it usually uses aren't really underused.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

If any, maybe to give it more moves that fall in line with its concept (useful moves that are seldom-seen). Otherwise, it's fine. It has an okay niche. The only real issue it has is that it requires a full team to support it. The only other way we could improve it is to give it a less situational way to recover.

In short, if there was a poll on this, I would vote a minor (and I mean very minor) buff followed by no competitive changes.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
Cawmodore pretty much serves as a late game sweeper, as it can really only function well once its checks are entirely removed, those being Scarf Volkraken, Cyclohm, and the ever-so-present HazeHawk. But once its gets the chance to set up a Belly Drum when its threats are removed, there are very few things that can stop it otherwise. Its not broken in any way, shape, or form, and it definitely does have a niche in the current metagame. Just the extreme popularity of HazeHawk and Volkraken, as well as the constant reliability of Cyclohm make it hard for Cawmodore to function right now.

How may this identity impact our updates?
Many people agree that Cawmodore, because of its solid status as a CAP, that it doesn't really need any real competitive updates. I'm going to play devil's advocate and disagree with this. Yes, it functions well as a Belly Drum sweeper, like it was designed, and it certainly has a defined role that it does very well, but Cawmodore experimentation has stagnated a bit. Its like Krilowatt, but it suffers way more from its set linearity. Because of how it was specifically designed, Cawmodore almost always run the Belly Drum set, and that is about it. And this set has no change either, aside from the rare Knock Off. Linearity in any meta is a bad thing. I'm not saying we should give Cawmodore 12 new moves and a new competitive ability, no. This update should mostly be consistency. But we shouldn't immediately rule out the option of a new competitive move.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
Belly Drum is still its only effective set, so I call that a major success.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

As stated earlier, linearity is never good for a pokemon. I propose that we should try and give Cawmodore one, and only one, new competitive move. It doesn't have to revolutionize the way that we play Cawmodore. It just has to add a little variety to Cawmodore's BD set. And, this move should try its hardest to be flavorful. Remember kids, this is still a consistency update.

 

[Reviloja753]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
Cawmodore pretty much serves as a late game sweeper, as it can really only function well once its checks are entirely removed, those being Scarf Volkraken, Cyclohm, and the ever-so-present HazeHawk. But once its gets the chance to set up a Belly Drum when its threats are removed, there are very few things that can stop it otherwise. Its not broken in any way, shape, or form, and it definitely does have a niche in the current metagame. Just the extreme popularity of HazeHawk and Volkraken, as well as the constant reliability of Cyclohm make it hard for Cawmodore to function right now.

How may this identity impact our updates?
Many people agree that Cawmodore, because of its solid status as a CAP, that it doesn't really need any real competitive updates. I'm going to play devil's advocate and disagree with this. Yes, it functions well as a Belly Drum sweeper, like it was designed, and it certainly has a defined role that it does very well, but Cawmodore experimentation has stagnated a bit. Its like Krilowatt, but it suffers way more from its set linearity. Because of how it was specifically designed, Cawmodore almost always run the Belly Drum set, and that is about it. And this set has no change either, aside from the rare Knock Off. Linearity in any meta is a bad thing. I'm not saying we should give Cawmodore 12 new moves and a new competitive ability, no. This update should mostly be consistency. But we shouldn't immediately rule out the option of a new competitive move.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
Belly Drum is still its only effective set, so I call that a major success.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

As stated earlier, linearity is never good for a pokemon. I propose that we should try and give Cawmodore one, and only one, new competitive move. It doesn't have to revolutionize the way that we play Cawmodore. It just has to add a little variety to Cawmodore's BD set. And, this move should try its hardest to be flavorful. Remember kids, this is still a consistency update.

I think the way to go is better STAB moves. Bullet Punch is weak as priority and Acrobatics is pretty bad on Normalium-Z sets, the best thing Cawm got in the transition to Gen 7.

 

[Okamu]

I think the way to go is better STAB moves. Bullet Punch is weak as priority and Acrobatics is pretty bad on Normalium-Z sets, the best thing Cawm got in the transition to Gen 7.

The only priority moves with stronger base power than Bullet Punch are Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, and by technicality Water Shuriken. None of those moves benefit Cawmodore as much as Bullet Punch, since BP is STAB and physical, meaning when you get to 4x attack, BP suddenly isn't a weak move at all. I have no idea what you are trying to imply by calling BP weak priority... It definitely isn't; it's par for the course if not slightly better because of BD and STAB. As for Acrobatics, Cawm was made before Gen 7, so obviously a Z Move set wouldn't have been considered. Regardless, Cawm still learns Drill Peck. If you want to use a Z BD set, then use Drill Peck; it will be stronger than unboosted Acrobatics. If you're using Sitrus Berry however, then Acrobatics becomes double base power, almost reaching Brave Bird's base power. There aren't any flying type priority moves, so unless you want to argue for Brave Bird (which would basically put Cawm's sweep on a timer) or Dragon's Ascent, there isn't a stronger STAB move for flying it can get than boosted Acrobatics. If you want to run Z BD, then part of running that set is accepting that your flying type STAB will be slightly weaker.

In addition, even after considering the overall lack of better options for Cawm to have, what even would better STAB options do for Cawm? Belly Drum already allows Cawm to sweep teams after the checks have been removed or severely weakened. Adding a stronger base power STAB move, if one existed, doesn't change this role fundamentally and still leaves the 'issue' of linearity (which is debatable in my honest opinion). It's checks would still check it, which they should be doing anyways. Personally, I think that Cawm is fine where it is. Its identity and concept match very well, with BD being the seldom-seen effect used exceptionally well. It may not have the splashability of Tomohawk, but it is still a fully actualized Pokémon that doesn't really need changing.

 

[snake]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
Cawmodore pretty much serves as a late game sweeper, as it can really only function well once its checks are entirely removed, those being Scarf Volkraken, Cyclohm, and the ever-so-present HazeHawk. But once its gets the chance to set up a Belly Drum when its threats are removed, there are very few things that can stop it otherwise. Its not broken in any way, shape, or form, and it definitely does have a niche in the current metagame. Just the extreme popularity of HazeHawk and Volkraken, as well as the constant reliability of Cyclohm make it hard for Cawmodore to function right now.

How may this identity impact our updates?
Many people agree that Cawmodore, because of its solid status as a CAP, that it doesn't really need any real competitive updates. I'm going to play devil's advocate and disagree with this. Yes, it functions well as a Belly Drum sweeper, like it was designed, and it certainly has a defined role that it does very well, but Cawmodore experimentation has stagnated a bit. Its like Krilowatt, but it suffers way more from its set linearity. Because of how it was specifically designed, Cawmodore almost always run the Belly Drum set, and that is about it. And this set has no change either, aside from the rare Knock Off. Linearity in any meta is a bad thing. I'm not saying we should give Cawmodore 12 new moves and a new competitive ability, no. This update should mostly be consistency. But we shouldn't immediately rule out the option of a new competitive move.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
Belly Drum is still its only effective set, so I call that a major success.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

As stated earlier, linearity is never good for a pokemon. I propose that we should try and give Cawmodore one, and only one, new competitive move. It doesn't have to revolutionize the way that we play Cawmodore. It just has to add a little variety to Cawmodore's BD set. And, this move should try its hardest to be flavorful. Remember kids, this is still a consistency update.

Sets aren't just moves; they have items too. And while you might argue that Cawmodore only has one set, I'll disagree with that. In Gen 7, set up sweepers very much appreciate Z Crystals. Cawmodore isn't an exception to that - we've already talked about Normalium Z (which I don't really see being its best item btw).

These are pre-Gen 7 sets:

Sitrus Berry

Cawmodore @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Acrobatics
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Punch

Good old standard Cawmodore. Hits most everything like a truck.

Salac Berry

Cawmodore @ Salac Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Acrobatics
- Drain Punch

This is a tech set that I wish I could use better, which invalidates most of Cawm's offensive checks. You just need a free turn to use Substitute.

However, Gen 7 has given us a new sets to work with. Note that while each of these sets might basically have the same moves, each one plays very differently.

Normalium Z

Cawmodore @ Normalium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drill Peck / Fly
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Punch

I don't really see this set being it's best set, but it's good at forcing switches early-game and setting up late-game. The power drop from Acrobatics to Drill Peck is a shame, but it still hits like a truck. Honestly, you could even run Fly for extra power. We've seen things run Fly effectively in the metagame lately.

Fightinium Z

Cawmodore @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drill Peck / Fly
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Punch

This is what I think will become Cawmodore's best new set, rivaling its standard Sitrus Berry set. Fightinium Z lets Cawmodore muscle past its defensive checks (Cyclohm) better with All-Out Pummeling. There's the same choice of a weaker Flying-type STAB, but boths still hit hard.

Flyinium Z

Cawmodore @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Fly
- Drain Punch
- Bullet Punch

I just thought of this one while making this post. While it doesn't KO defensive Haze Tomohawk...it nukes it super hard, almost KOing it at +0 (does 84% - 99%). This means that Cawmodore can muscle past the defensive check that removes its boosts before it sets up. Bullet Punch can even pick off Tomohawk before it has a chance to use Roost. And if the opponent doesn't have a defensive Tomohawk, they won't enjoy a +6 Supersonic Skystrike to the face.

Basically, while we haven't explored these sets in the metagame yet (since the metagame is very unkind to Cawmodore right now), Gen 7 has already given us new tools for Cawmodore to use. I really don't think it needs a new move for set variety because each of these sets allow Cawmodore to play differently, all using Belly Drum and most of the same moves. Flavor update ahoy imo.

Iron Head is always an option to run on Cawmodore's sets too, but you miss out on the priority from Bullet Punch, which is imperative to get around Choice Scarfers and faster Pokemon, unless you run Salac Berry.

 

[Reviloja753]

The only priority moves with stronger base power than Bullet Punch are Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, and by technicality Water Shuriken. None of those moves benefit Cawmodore as much as Bullet Punch, since BP is STAB and physical, meaning when you get to 4x attack, BP suddenly isn't a weak move at all. I have no idea what you are trying to imply by calling BP weak priority... It definitely isn't; it's par for the course if not slightly better because of BD and STAB. As for Acrobatics, Cawm was made before Gen 7, so obviously a Z Move set wouldn't have been considered. Regardless, Cawm still learns Drill Peck. If you want to use a Z BD set, then use Drill Peck; it will be stronger than unboosted Acrobatics. If you're using Sitrus Berry however, then Acrobatics becomes double base power, almost reaching Brave Bird's base power. There aren't any flying type priority moves, so unless you want to argue for Brave Bird (which would basically put Cawm's sweep on a timer) or Dragon's Ascent, there isn't a stronger STAB move for flying it can get than boosted Acrobatics. If you want to run Z BD, then part of running that set is accepting that your flying type STAB will be slightly weaker.

In addition, even after considering the overall lack of better options for Cawm to have, what even would better STAB options do for Cawm? Belly Drum already allows Cawm to sweep teams after the checks have been removed or severely weakened. Adding a stronger base power STAB move, if one existed, doesn't change this role fundamentally and still leaves the 'issue' of linearity (which is debatable in my honest opinion). It's checks would still check it, which they should be doing anyways. Personally, I think that Cawm is fine where it is. Its identity and concept match very well, with BD being the seldom-seen effect used exceptionally well. It may not have the splashability of Tomohawk, but it is still a fully actualized Pokémon that doesn't really need changing.

I meant that BP has low base power, and it has low base power because of it being a priority move. Also, note that in my first post, I state that I want minor changes at most, but I would be content with no competitive changes.

 

[Granny Pie]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?

• he is a cawmodore. he has a big belli and he drums his belli w/ hands if you dont repost this comment on 10 other pages he will get a 4x atk boost and sweep ur team

How may this identity impact our updates?

• I believe our updates should be mostly consistentcy and flavor. Maaaaybe a new competitive hidden ability, or something. But overall, Cawmodore is pretty well set, and doesn't need many new updates.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?

• Mmmmmmm... Yeah. Pretty well. Belly Drum is a game-changing move, but you hardly ever see it through its poor distribution and inherent "do-or-die"-ness. Cawmodore carries the move well.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competeive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

• Mmmmmmmmmmmmm... Not really. Maybe just a slightly viable third ability, for consistency's sake. But other than that... Smart Strike? Maybe?

 

[BP]

What do you believe is Cawmodore's identity in the current metagame?
I'm going to echo what everyone else said. It basically Belly Drums when its checks are dead then it sweeps teams thanks to its great Speed Stat and its Use of Bullet Punch and Drain Punch.

How may this identity impact our updates?
In the ORAS CAP Metagame it was a must to have a Cawmodore check on almost every team you had while laddering, playing in tournaments, etc. That being stated this greatly affects how we update our Feathery friend for the SUMO Metagame. In all honesty all we really should Update is a Hidden Ability but as a CAP fanboy that particularly loves Cawmodores design I would love to see some more flavor added in that can not only fit its concept but also its design.

How well do you believe Cawmodore has fulfilled it's original concept and goals?
I agree with snake_rattler and his point about how SUMO has given us multiple ways of playing with Cawmodore that I don't tend to really see.

Do you believe Cawmodore needs any competitive changes? If so, please explain your reasoning as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
I would vote for an Extremely petite buff. Cawmodore on Paper looks amazing but it has such low usage because... I guess nobody really wants to build a team around it. My goal Is to shoot for flavor on this thing because I love it's design. It's design is based off of my favorite Marine Bird! In all seriousness if Cawmodore needs a little something than just make it something small.

CAWMODORES Design

 

[cbrevan]

Since discussion has died down a bit, I'm going to go ahead and move us forward. From what I can tell from the posts in this thread, the consensus is that Cawmodore is at an acceptable place in the current metagame, and thus is not in need of any competitive changes. There were several posts advocating for slight buffs to Cawmodore, but I believe snake_rattler's post did a good job of illustrating the potential buffs Gen 7 has given Cawmodore already. Given the consensus and the unexplored nature of these sets, I think we're best off leaving any changes to how Cawmodore plays to the tools it already has. Therefore, Cawmodore will not be seeing any competitive changes from this update, and we'll be focusing mainly on the flavour and consistency side of things.

From here, I'd like us to start off with a couple days of moves discussion. Our goal will be to assess potential move additions from Gen 6 and Gen 7 to see if they're viable for this update, or in other words, we will be doing our best to evaluate the competitiveness of these moves. This is especially important for Cawmodore because Belly Drum can inflate the power of normally weak moves, and considering the additions of Z moves, we're going to have to be extra cautious when adding new moves, lest we mistakenly give Cawmodore a way to change one of it's matchups. I also want to make it clear that we will not be adding additional support to Cawmodore's defensive and utility sets. As they are already, they function as traps for newer players because of Cawmodore's similarity to Skarmory. Increasing the viability of these sets will do nothing more than harming Cawmodore's image. This means we will not be giving Cawmodore any form of reliable recovery, nor will we give it utility options, such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, Heal Bell, pivot moves, or anything else that could help make a defensive or utility set better.

Here are some guiding questions for this stage:

• What new moves from Gen 6 and Gen 7 could Cawmodore receive?
• How do these moves relate to Cawmodore's image and appearance?
• Why should Cawmodore receive them?
• How do these moves have no competitive merit on Cawmodore?

 

[Reviloja753]

Hold Back is interesting. It is useless competitively (Hello False Swipe!) and fits in with a fair fight in the military (Navy). Soldiers only kill if they have to. It would be a testimate to Cawm's character. Every other move I looked out didn't really work, so yeah.

 

[snake]

What new moves from Gen 6 and Gen 7 could Cawmodore receive?
Smart Strike seems like an easy one.

Nothing from Gen 6 really impresses me.

How do these moves relate to Cawmodore's image and appearance?
The user stabs the target with a sharp horn. This attack never misses.

Cawm has a really sharp beak!

Why should Cawmodore receive them?
It's easy to access due to being a TM.

How do these moves have no competitive merit on Cawmodore?

You run Iron Head (a stronger STAB move) to break past Unaware Clef. Smart Strike is therefore completely inferior to Iron Head and no competitive merit. It's main draw that it can't miss is inferior to Iron Head's flinch chance.

 

[Martin890]

On mobile so here we go:

-Out of all the moves that were introduced this gen and could fit Cawmodore, the one that strikes me the most is Anchor Shot.

-Well Cawd is a sea based pokemon (or more specifically a captain) and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to use say an anchor as a weapon if it needs to protect its crew. It also has that anchor theme going on on its beak. Also, we already know Dhelmise is the seaweed, not the anchor so you can't say that this can't be exclusive on you unless you're literally a giant piece of metal shaped like a double sided hook. Dhelmise uses the anchor (and the chain) as a weapon so if a demonic seaweed can, why can't a birb captain ? ALSO, let's not forget that its pre-evo is literally shaped like an anchor.

-Explained everything above.

-Aside from being just Iron Head with an extra effect, one common thing among all of Caw's sets is that they all use BP since Cawd, even if it has a decent speed stat, can still get outspead by a lot of other mons so priority can play an important factor which is probably why Iron Head is almost never used (at least in more common ones, I know about Cleffable). Also, using Anchor Shot can be a bit of a luck game as you could trap a pokemon that allows you to set up, but also one that will force you to switch out, it all depends on how you and your opponent do your switching game.


As for other move suggestions, I also like Hold Back and Stomping Tantrum (the crew not behaving as expected can make you snap at one point)

 

[Menshay]

There's maybe Power-Up Punch: it has precedent (Bullet/Drain Punch), is very weak (40), does not add coverage (again, Drain Punch) and Cawmodore already has Belly Drum as an attack-raising move (Power-Up Punch would be less risky to use, however).

There's Focus Punch as a new ORAS tutor, except that is definitely competitive. Anchor Shot would be a fitting flavour-based addition, but it too seems kind of risky.

 

[snake]

On mobile so here we go:

-Out of all the moves that were introduced this gen and could fit Cawmodore, the one that strikes me the most is Anchor Shot.

-Well Cawd is a sea based pokemon (or more specifically a captain) and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to use say an anchor as a weapon if it needs to protect its crew. It also has that anchor theme going on on its beak. Also, we already know Dhelmise is the seaweed, not the anchor so you can't say that this can't be exclusive on you unless you're literally a giant piece of metal shaped like a double sided hook. Dhelmise uses the anchor (and the chain) as a weapon so if a demonic seaweed can, why can't a birb captain ? ALSO, let's not forget that its pre-evo is literally shaped like an anchor.

-Explained everything above.

-Aside from being just Iron Head with an extra effect, one common thing among all of Caw's sets is that they all use BP since Cawd, even if it has a decent speed stat, can still get outspead by a lot of other mons so priority can play an important factor which is probably why Iron Head is almost never used (at least in more common ones, I know about Cleffable). Also, using Anchor Shot can be a bit of a luck game as you could trap a pokemon that allows you to set up, but also one that will force you to switch out, it all depends on how you and your opponent do your switching game.


As for other move suggestions, I also like Hold Back and Stomping Tantrum (the crew not behaving as expected can make you snap at one point)

There's maybe Power-Up Punch: it has precedent (Bullet/Drain Punch), is very weak (40), does not add coverage (again, Drain Punch) and Cawmodore already has Belly Drum as an attack-raising move (Power-Up Punch would be less risky to use, however).

There's Focus Punch as a new ORAS tutor, except that is definitely competitive. Anchor Shot would be a fitting flavour-based addition, but it too seems kind of risky.

Cawmodore doesn't get any other boosting moves like Swords Dance or Bulk Up, as its specifically tailored to use Belly Drum. Thus, I don't think it's very consistent with Cawmodore's competitive design to add Power Up Punch.

Not only does Focus Punch give Cawmodore a much more powerful All-Out-Pummeling (lets it KO Skarmory and Cyclohm in one Z slot, no thanks), it's a really high base power move that Cawm could use on its SubSalac set if it really wanted to. Sure it might not see much use, but it needs to see 0 use, especially on such a volatile creation like Cawmodore.

Anchor Shot is a trapping move. Those moves really deserve their own project tbh. The problem isn't "Cawm can trap things and then set up on them." Theoretically, yes it can, but most people switch in their Cawm checks on the first turn its out, so you trap the counter. Cawm gets forced out, and it seems like using Anchor Shot was a wasted turn. However, that Cawm check can't switch until the turn after Cawm switches out. Let's say your opponent's Cawm check is Skarmory. Anchor Shot the Skarmory, switch to your Magnezone, KO Skarmory. Basically, Anchor Shot lets you lure in Cawm's checks, force them to take hazards damage, and gives you huge switch initiative to let you have a much easier time beating Cawm's checks. Anchor Shot shouldn't be considered because it makes a competitive impact.

 

[BP]

Stomping Tantrum is one of the moves that I would love to see Cawmodore gain. Also I agree with snake_rattler as cool as Anchor Shot would be it should not get it.


What new moves from Gen 6 and Gen 7 could Cawmodore receive?
Stomping Tantrum, Bulk Up, Hold back, and Smart Strike

How do these moves relate to Cawmodore's image and appearance?
I mean Being based off of a Frigate bird it bulks up quite often to attract mates. Stomping Tantrum is definitely something I could see Cawmodore getting. I mean just look at the thing stomping on the ground to indicate its territory. Hold Back is also move Cawmodore could receive due to it being sort of a king. I mean Just look at the thing. Finally Smart Strike is a move that snake_rattler proposed that I definitely agree with.

Why should Cawmodore receive them?
I guess the question isn't really why it should but should it not recieve them. These moves don't really have any competitive merit as far as I can tell and are more of just for flavor. The only move under question would probably be like Bulk Up because it's a boosting move.

How do these moves have no competitive merit on Cawmodore?
Bulk Up is greatly inferior to Belly Drum so there isn't really a reason to actually use it. Stomping Tantrum isn't really a move that Cawmodore could even fit into its movepool. The current sets it runs have no room for a move that isn't even all that good. Hold Back and Smart Strike are self explainatory.

 

[Mx]

Bulk Up is an horrible idea, the defense boost means it's not outclassed by BD at all, and a set like BU/Drain Punch/Iron Head/Drill Peck would be at least usable, maybe even somewhat good.

Stomping Tantrum is not as bad, but it could be used to beat Cyclohm:

+6 252 Atk Cawmodore Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 330-390 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Maybe I'm being a bit paranoid here, but I'd rather not take the risk. Also, all Pokemon that learn it already know Earthquake, so it doesn't really fit with Caw previous movepool.

Smart Strike doesn't make sense flavor-wise, it's Japanese name is "Smart Horn" and no Pokemon based on a bird learns it, not even Skarmory.

I don't really have any opinion on Hold Back, but it should be noted that it's an event only move, so if it's added it should probably included as one.

 

[Quanyails]

Anchor Shot: No. Sure, it takes up a moveslot, but as explained above, it makes it easier for Cawmodore to remove its checks/counters.

Bulk Up: No. The moves not outclassed when it doesn't lower HP by half and gives Cawmodore a boost in defense. It encourages a more defensive set like the old Bulk Up + Drain Punch Revenankh or something (although I admit it'd probably wouldn't work). Edit: And this isn't a Gen. VI+ move, anyway, so it's moot.

Power-Up Punch: I'm leaning toward 'yes'. Fellow Belly Drummer Azumarill gets access to the move and it's not seen using it. Cawmodore needs Belly Drum to sweep, and Power-Up Punch's boost is too pitiful.

Smart Strike: No. No birds get it, even the birds that have pointy beaks like Fearow. Skarmory doesn't get it. Cawmodore shouldn't get it.

Stomping Tantrum: No. I don't see the flavor in the move when Cawmodore is a bird, doesn't get Rage or other angry moves, doesn't get Earthquake, and can't really stomp. mxmts's point about damaging Cyclohm also gives it competitive use.

I'm looking at Pokemon like Braviary that don't really get new additions between generations. I don't see the need to stick new moves onto Cawmodore.

 

[Deck Knight]

Bulk Up and Power-Up Punch are largely anti-concept in light if the fact we chose to select Belly Drum as our key "not frequently used" move in Concept Assessment. Focus Punch's Z-Move applications make it a no-go, and honestly that Cawm even has punch moves is more a competitive anomaly than a flavor direction. Cawmodore doesn't need any competitive updates whatsoever, it's exactly as strong as it needs to be. If I did want to add anything significantly competitive whatsoever, it'd be Aqua Jet but I don't think that's warranted or that people want it.

The only Gen 6 Moves I like are Confide and Secret Power as they are universal TMs, Shock Wave (ORAS Tutor) because believe it or not Pelipper gets it and Cawm is a similar sort of naval-based bird, Water Pulse (ORAS Tutor) because Cawm gets a lot of special water move flavor, and Belch because I find it mildly hilarious, seing as Cawm is one of the few mons that uses a Berry on its most popular sets. That said, the only way Cawm could learn Belch is via level-up or Heart Scale since nothing in the Flying Egg group gets it.

From Gen 7 I like Smart Strike and nothing else, as a military bird / naval navigator it makes sense for it to be able to hone in on an attack even if, say, Skarmory can't do that. Hold Back is an Event-Only move that nothing learns naturally, seems like something we should avoid.

 

[sparktrain]

Honestly, I'm not seeing very many good flavor options for Cawmodore. Confide is the only one I'm absolutely sure about since it's universal.

I'm against all of Stomping Tantrum, Anchor Shot, Bulk Up, and Focus Punch due to their competitive implications, and none are particularly necessary for consistency to begin with. Smart Strike might seem fitting at first glance, but it's actually not consistent with other birds (do /ms flying, smart strike). Like Quanyails said, even birds with pointy beaks don't learn Smart Strike. Agreeing with Deck that we should avoid Hold Back; no Pokemon learns it naturally.

I'll loosely support Power-Up Punch, Shock Wave, and Belch as flavor additions. Power-Up Punch is too weak to have any serious competitive impact. Shock Wave seems odd, but quite a few random things from the Flying egg group get it as an ORAS tutor move (Pelipper, Togekiss, Swoobat to name a few), and it's not terribly far-fetched since it has Volt Absorb. Belch because well, lol.

 

[Martin890]

Considering the fact that there are known species of birds that tend to spill out there last meal either for there hatchings or as a defensive mechanism, yeah I'm also in support for Belch.

I also wanted to touch a bit upon Smart Strike's rather big inconsistency since no bird mon we have learns it (if you wanna be that guy and count Togetic as a bird), but I see that everyone did it already so no need there. Also, looking a bit through SS's distribution, the only two mons that get this moves that have something vaguely similar to a beak are Excadrill and Fini (and those are supposed to be a mole and a sword fish mermaid respectively, not even close to a bird). Funny how Necrozma and Togetic learn it to........actually wait, how does Togetic learn it ?

 

[cbrevan]

We've had some good discussion going on, so I'd like to open this thread up to movepool submissions. My expectations for this stage and the results of our prior move discussion will be included in this post as well.

Starting with the disallows, Anchor Shot, Bulk Up, Stomping Tantrum, and Focus Punch will be disallowed for competitive reasons. Anchor Shot gives Cawmodore a way to further play around it's checks and counters by seizing switch initiative. snake_rattler's post does a good job of covering this aspect of the move. Bulk Up's defensive boost can be potentially distracting, especially considering Cawmodore's access to Intimidate, and could potentially enable a more defensive boosting set on Cawmodore. Stomping Tantrum is disallowed because it's a viable alternative to Drain Punch that allows Cawmodore to cover grounded Electric- and Steel-types in one moveslot. Lastly, Focus Punch is disallowed because of it's potential usage on a Substitute Salac Berry set and the high base power Fighting Z move it allows Cawmodore.

For non-competetive reasons, Smart Strike and Hold Back will be disallowed. Smart Strike has been pointed out by many to be absent on every Flying-type Pokemon save Togetic, Togekiss, and Thundurus, which is enough of a precedent for me to disallow it. Hold Back is an event move and the consensus in this thread seems to be that we should be avoiding such moves, which I agree with.

Everything else that has been brought up, such as Shock Wave, Water Pulse, and Belch are allowed, with the sole exception of Power Up Punch. Sufficient flavour reasoning and support for them have been voiced that I feel comfortable allowing them. Confide and Secret Power have been pointed out to be Gen 6 Universal moves, and therefore will be required moves for Cawmodore's new movepool. Lastly, Power Up Punch has received mixed support in this thread, with an argument for it as it holds no competitive value, as well as one against it for conflicting with Belly Drum. Neither side has received enough support for me to rule in favor of them, so we'll have a quick poll on whether to allow or disallow Power Up Punch. In the mean time, feel free to work on and post your rough movepools here for feedback. Just make sure you follow the below guidelines:

• You must include every move from Cawmodore's current movepool in your submission. Cawmodore's full movepool can be viewed here.
• Our ultimate goal is to update Cawmodore's movepool with Gen 6 and Gen 7 additions, so please focus any new movepool additions with moves from these two generations. I won't disallow Gen 5 and older moves, but I expect good reasoning as to why Cawmodore should be receiving these moves now as opposed to Gen 5.
  
• You may not include any of the following moves in your submission: Anchor Shot, Bulk Up, Stomping Tantrum, Focus Punch, Smart Strike, and Hold Back. Additionally, you may not include reliable recovery moves, additional status inducing moves, any form of entry hazards, stronger formes of already existing physical coverage, and new types of physical coverage. In short, don't include anything competitive in your move additions.
  
• You must include Confide and Secret Power as Universal Moves.
• I expect every move addition to have sufficient reasoning as to why it is included and how you decided to add it. If it was not discussed in this thread prior, please include an explanation as to how it has no competitive merit on Cawmodore.
• As of this poll, Power-Up Punch is disallowed on Cawmodore, so please do not include it.