CAP Updates: Malaconda Discussion (Complete)

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I like the idea of giving fire coverage to Malaconda, as it has great synergy with its new ability, however I think Fire Lash might be a bit too much, as it not only it has 120 Base Power in the sun, but also always lowers the target's Defense. With this, max attack Malaconda manages to 2HKO Physically defensive Skarmory:

252+ Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. -1 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.



I believe the better option is Fire Fang, this would still manage to 2HKO some mons with a x4 weakness to fire, most notably Ferrothorn and Scizor, while still failing to break Skarmory:

252+ Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sun: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega in Sun: 248-292 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's a nice thought, but Scizor OHKOs with U-Turn...

In terms of Fire Lash though, Skarm only usually runs status, meaning Skarm is going to be bait to a Fire coverage move anyways. Also, it can phaze out Malaconda, so it isn't all doom and gloom.
 
What moves would you like to see added to Malaconda, and what would a moveset with them look like?

Among the moves I would like to see on Malaconda, there are Natural Gift and maybe Power Trip (and Coil and Leech Seed ;_;).

Malaconda @ Occa Berry / Lum Berry / Kee Berry / Sitrus Berry / Galon Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Natural Gift
- U-turn / Glare
- Knock Off
- Power Whip / Synthesis / Glare / Rest

Malaconda @ Starf Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Power Trip
- Synthesis / Power Whip / Glare / Taunt

Why is this move and moveset a competitive option for Malaconda?

Natural Gift
is a rather uncommon Move since it has a single use and you must pack a berry instead of potentially more useful item, but with Harvest, you are able to use Natural Gift multiple times, which allows you lure some target depending of which berry you are using, but if we add more coverage moves, this strategy could become outclassed. The berries themselves are useful too, since they allow you to remove one your weaknesses (Occa Berry), to keep your Malaconda healthy (Sitrus Berry / Lum Berry), or to raise your low defense ( Kee Berry / Galon Berry ). Keep in mind that you cannot past all of your ennemies : even with a 100 BP fairy move (Natural Gift with Kee Berry), you are still unable to 2HKO Tomohawk, the same applies against Cyclohm and Skarmory (with the Occa berry, in case you have a 80 BP Fire move), and if you are unlucky and Harvest doesn't give you your berry when needed, this can be unfortunate.

I stole the set with Power Trip from one of my friend who used this one with a Trevenant in the XY era, it requires luck in order to shine (and even with luck, HazeHawk say hi). The idea is the following, you spam Substitute until you reach >25% of your health, then you use Protect as well, you can heal yourselves with Synthesis if needed, the Starf Berry gives you a random stat boost each turn you earn it when you are at low health. Every single boost makes Power Trip stronger, so this set can be very powerful, but you need to be lucky, because you want to have the best boost when needed with Starf berry, Harvest may not be always kind as well.

Does this moveset redefine how Malaconda is played, or in any other way create a new niche for Malaconda outside of it's current options?

I think none of these move completely change how Malaconda is played currently, Natural Gift allows him to become a lure and Power Trip a late game Sweeper (kinda), but they don't outclass the support set, especially the incoming one with Drought. Furthermore, it seems that offensive variants of Malaconda already existed in the past (at least I saw a choice band set in a BW analyse) and Z-Wild Charge is stronger than any form of Natural Gift against Tomohawk, Skarm and Celesteela. Nonetheless, I can't deny that these move give more ways to play the snake.

How does it interact with Malaconda's new ability, Drought, if at all?

Both of these moves need Harvest to be effective.

Why do you believe your proposed move and moveset are within the scope of this update?

I think that Natural Gift shouldn't completely change Malaconda as it can still be useful on Defensive variant, as Malaconda still makes use of the effect of his berries (like Sitrus/Lum), it just another way to abuse Harvest. Power Trip makes a gimmicky set a little better (sometimes Knock off may be better), but I doubt it will be seen very often.

What matchups does your proposed move affect? What damage calculations can be done to show this?

Power Trip is just there for a gimmicky set, but depending of the berry you're holding, Malaconda can past some his current threats:

252+ Atk Occa Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega: 204-240 (59.4 - 69.9%)
252+ Atk Occa Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 216-256 (61.3 - 72.7%)
252+ Atk Occa Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 142-168 (47.1 - 55.8%)
252+ Atk Occa Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 156-184 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Kee Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (100 BP Fairy) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 156-184 (37.6 - 44.4%)
252+ Atk Kee Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (100 BP Fairy) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 128-152 (30.4 - 36.1%)
252+ Atk Lum Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 112-134 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Lum Berry Malaconda Natural Gift (80 BP Flying) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 142-168 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

As I said, Malaconda cannot past a large amount of physical Wall.

I was too lazy to argue during my post, but Solar blade could be added too, it's a more accurate Power Whip only effective under Sun.


 

Deck Knight

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Generally speaking I think Drought is enough of an upgrade to only support one of fire coverage or Strength Sap, and Spiky Shield is a great addition to aid Harvest sets.

Strength Sap effects defensive calcs so I'll have a set up with those later.
 
I like the addition of both Spiky Shield and Sap Sipper.

I kind of wonder what a Sap Sipper/Spiky Shield/Rocky Helmet would look like, though.
 
There have been some interesting options proposed so far. These are some of the moves that I support the most:

Ice Fang - I'm very much in favor of adding this move. snake_rattler summed up the benefits of this move well in his post. As it currently stands, Malaconda is a bulky Grass-type that consistently flops against several of the best offensive Water-types and Ground-types in the metagame, which is highly unattractive if you're considering it for a team. Gunk Shot and U-turn from the likes of Protean Greninja and Ash Greninja respectively hurt it quite a bit, which frankly there's not much we can do about. The top Ground-types in the metagame, Landorus-T and Zygarde, are quite threatening to Malaconda and can use it as setup bait. Landorus-T can force it out with the threat of a Supersonic Skystrike or a U-turn, and can use the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock or Swords Dance. Malaconda is also easy setup bait for Zygarde, as it has no way to break Zygarde's Substitute after a Coil.

Enter Ice Fang. In a very loose sense, it's essentially providing Malaconda with a physical version of Hidden Power Ice. It's weak and doesn't get STAB, so it's only useful for targeting specific threats such as Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Zygarde. In a metagame where Malaconda faces stiff competition from fellow bulky Grass-type Tangrowth and several top Ground-types are only hit neutrally by Grass, Ice Fang does a small part to help bridge the gap. Check snake's post for damage calcs.

Solar Blade - I think this is fine to include for its synergy with Drought. Solar Blade's main use over Power Whip is its 100% accuracy, making it the superior option in the sun. However, Solar Blade comes with a heavy drawback if you're faced with an opposing weather setter like Pelipper or Ninetales-A. In these match ups, clicking Solar Blade is a risky play as they can switch in and lock Malaconda into the charge turn. From there, the opponent can use the opportunity to attack Malaconda or switch to a Grass resist, resulting in a severe momentum loss for the Malaconda user and the weather in the opponent's favor. I know cbrevan likes damage calcs, but a 4% increase in damage output isn't drastically altering any match ups, so I'll spare you all the wall of text for now.

Spiky Shield - Being the massive U-turn bait that it is, Spiky Shield would be a welcome addition for Malaconda. Unlike Protect, Spiky Shield is actually worth running for scouting purposes thanks to the chip damage it causes. Not much else to say; Malaconda is a target of numerous contact moves, and Spiky Shield is a method of punishing them that's far from overbearing.

These are the moves that I'm against:

Fire coverage - Fire Fang, Fire Lash, all of it. Even with the weakest option, we're talking about a move that deals massive damage to a former hard counter to Malaconda when boosted by sun. I do agree that it wouldn't make Malaconda overbearing, but I don't think it's the direction we should go. I think it's better to add coverage moves that play to the potential strengths of Malaconda's defensive typing (e.g. Ice coverage for Ground-types) rather than mess around with Pokemon that are natural checks to Malaconda.

Will-O-Wisp - This is really over the top when it comes to Malaconda ability to deal with physical attackers. Switching into Malaconda is already annoying enough due to it having the most reliable paralysis move in the game. It doesn't also need the ability to cripple every physical attacker that isn't a Fire-type or a Guts user.

I'm more or less neutral on these moves:

Natural Gift - If anyone is bent on Fire coverage being added, Natural Gift is the most conservative way we can do so. As a move, Natural Gift is almost always considered a specialized lure or tech option, as it comes with some pretty serious drawbacks. For one, it takes up the item slot. Malaconda must forgo the recovery of Leftovers and Sitrus Berry. It can't run a generic boosting item or a Z crystal either like it theoretically could with an actual Fire move. What really hampers this option, however, is Malaconda's low Speed combined with the reliance on prediction. Malaconda must catch Scizor on the switch or hope it tries to set up SD, or else Malaconda is taken out by U-turn. Ferrothorn occasionally runs Protect to scout for Fire attacks. And if at any point Malaconda predicts incorrectly, the move is wasted. Even if it's paired with Harvest, the surprise factor is gone once Natural Gift is revealed. I'm not convinced either way on this one. It's an inconsistent option, but whether or not it's a capability we want Malaconda to have is debatable.

Power Trip - This move has no serious competitive impact. Malaconda lacks a reliable boosting move and there's no Baton Pass in the metagame, meaning that Malaconda has to rely on a gimmicky Harvest set with something like Starf Berry or Kee Berry. It's walled by Haze Hawk, it's even more vulnerable to all the same mons that threaten a good Malaconda set, it means you're not running Sitrus Berry or Leftovers for recovery, and it requires multiple boosts to even be worth it over Knock Off. Starf Berry requires being knocked below 25% and getting really lucky with boosts. Kee Berry requires Malaconda to take physical hits, boosts way too slowly, and only results in a 140 BP Power Trip if you somehow manage to get to +6 Defense (a competent opponent would stop trying to break Malaconda with physical moves long before this anyway). Let's save Power Trip for the flavor discussion.

Strength Sap - It's not a particularly good recovery move considering Malaconda's hefty base 115 HP stat, especially when it now has to compete with Drought-boosted Synthesis. The Attack drop combined with the recovery of Harvest and Sitrus Berry might be just enough to make this sustainable, but even so, my gut is telling me it'd be simpler to just run Synthesis and pair Malaconda with something that can handle physical attackers more reliably. It's interesting, but I'm not quite sold on it yet.
 

Deck Knight

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Here's the fleshed out justification for Strength Sap. Malaconda's high base HP is actually a huge selling point for it. Strength Sap serves as an awesome luring and pivoting move. It's more aggressive than Synthesis with more PP. The central facet of what makes Strength Sap so powerful is that it heals Malaconda for the actual Attack Value of whatever it hits. So if it hits Max Atk Colossoil, it recovers 377 HP, which with a slightly modified 232 HP / 24 Def investment works out to 88%. Even at -1 Atk, if Malaconda used Strength Sap again it would gain 252 HP, which is still over 50%.

Here's what the set would look like:

Defensive Sapping Malaconda @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Atk / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Strength Sap
- Power Whip
- Glare / Rapid Spin
- Knock Off / U-turn /Substitute

  • Strength Sap allows Malaconda to both heal itself off of lured threats and reduce their threat level to the entire team.
  • Power Whip is strong STAB.
  • Glare is offensive support that paralyzes opponents. Rapid Spin is defensive support to remove hazards.
  • Final slot features Knock Off for item removal, U-turn to more effectively pivot away from debuffed opponents, or Substitute to ease predictions, fish for Harvest Berries, and ensure debuffs.
  • Sitrus Berry tp capitalize on weakened hits pushing Malaconda below 50% HP, but not enough to KO after a debuff.

That's neat, what does it do to the matchup? Really depends on whether Guts is activated, here's the non-Guts boosted calculations on 232 HP/ 24 Def Malaconda:

Strength Sap Healing 337 HP = 88%

-1 252+ Atk Colossoil Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 84-99 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Colossoil Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 81-96 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252+ Atk Colossoil U-turn vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 316-372 (73.6 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Colossoil Fire Fang vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 146-172 (34 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

What this means is that if Colossoil switches in to Malaconda as it uses Strength Sap, Strength Sap will actually heal more than debuffed U-turn will do in damage. Any time an opponent pivots into a non-Guts Boosted Colossoil, Malaconda will not be threatened short of a critical hit. The rest of Colossoil's moves barely register, though I added Fire Fang since it's especially effective against Drought Malaconda and will usually net a 2HKO in the sun, even if Soil's attack is lowered.

Mega Scizor:

Staying in on Mega Scizor with defensive Malaconda is suicide. Using Strength Sap on it as switches in before Mega Evolving heals 416 HP, after doing so Malaconda is healed 100%. Whatever Pokemon you pivot to after that only needs to handle Scizor at -1. This is a dumb fight to pick, debuff and get out of dodge.

WispyKit Kitsunoh:

Strength Sap Healing 243 HP = 56.6%

-1 4 Atk Kitsunoh U-turn vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 204-240 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

Another instance with Strength Sap heals more than the debuffed pivot move damages.

Choice Scarf Kitsunoh:

Strength Sap Healing 305 HP = 71%

-1 252 Atk Kitsunoh U-turn vs. 232 HP / 24 Def Malaconda: 252-300 (58.7 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Once again, a properly timed Strength Sap gives Malaconda the breathing room to further debuff opponents or support the team.

To contrast with Synthesis, Synthesis is an decent healing move that Drought makes better, but Synthesis cannot net the extra turns to debuff that a well-timed Strength Sap can. As we covered for much of this thread, Malaconda has not shown to be an effective wall but has a lot of tools to be an awesome pivot. It thrives best in situations where it is making and forcing multiple switch-outs to reset Strength Sap's damage. Strength Sap adds an additional tool to build on Malaconda's already strong pivoting capabilities.

- - -

Strength Sap can also be placed onto an offensive Drought Set, where its goal is to provide a more aggressive form of pressure while also healing Malaconda:

Offensive Sapping Malaconda @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip / Solar Blade
- Fire Fang
- Knock Off
- Strength Sap

  • Power Whip or Solar Blade for powerful Grass STAB.
  • Fire Fang to threaten opponents like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor.
  • Knock Off for fairly reliable Dark STAB and item removal.
  • Strength Sap for situational healing and debuff potential.
  • EVs set to speed creep Bulky Mega Scizor and outrun Skarmory, Celesteela, etc.

On this set, Strength Sap is serving the role Roost has on most other 3 Atk + Recovery LO sets for comparable Pokemon. While Synthesis under sun heals a consistent 66%, which IS good, Malaconda's huge list of weaknesses (exacerbated by Drought giving it a 4x Fire weakness) means Malaconda is still going to function like a pivot attacker. When your health is low and you predict a switch, Strength Sap is a very safe option. Even against a threat with deliberately weak Attack like -Atk Timid Tapu Lele, Strength Sap still heals 157 HP / 40.4%. Against a pivot into Tapu Koko, Strength Sap heals 239 HP or 61.4% HP, and weaken's Tapu Koko's own U-turn to a range if 52.4-62.7%. (Solar Blade can OHKO Tapu Koko or Tapu Lele, incidentally).

Against Skarmory, Strength Sap heals 176 HP on first use or 45.2%, and weakens Skarmory's Brave Bird to a range of 49.8-59.1%. A turn combination of Fire Fang (on Skarm switch) - Strength Sap - Fire Fang (all in Sun) will KO Skarmory after considering average recoil damage from weakened Brave Bird, however Skarm can Roost of Phaze Malaconda instead of using Brave Bird initially to prevent this, and wins a neutral matchup via phazing and Roost.

tl;dr Strength Sap has positive and useful applications on both Harvest and Drought Sets and encourages intelligent play. It isn't spammable, or unbeatable, and it can compete with Synthesis because of battle effects relevant to its Attack Drop, It is both great team support and useful to Malaconda itself.

EDIT: Oh yeah, one more bonus of Strength Sap:

If you use it with Infiltrator as an ability, on SubCoil Zygarde you can come in at basically any percentage that you can tank Thousand Arrows, Strength Sap to full health while lowering its attack, then phaze SubCoil Zygarde with Dragon Tail. Obviously you won't win in last mon scenarios (need Ice Fang for that)...

Come to think of it:

What's Sap Doc / There Is No Substitute Malaconda @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 232 HP / 4 Atk / 16 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Strength Sap
- Power Whip / Knock Off
- Dragon Tail
- Psycho Shift

Pretty much the perfect set for taking down Toxic Stall and weakneing the offensive threats they tend to use. Psycho Shifting back a Toxic is just evil.
 
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G-Luke

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There have been some interesting options proposed so far. These are some of the moves that I support the most:

Ice Fang - I'm very much in favor of adding this move. snake_rattler summed up the benefits of this move well in his post. As it currently stands, Malaconda is a bulky Grass-type that consistently flops against several of the best offensive Water-types and Ground-types in the metagame, which is highly unattractive if you're considering it for a team. Gunk Shot and U-turn from the likes of Protean Greninja and Ash Greninja respectively hurt it quite a bit, which frankly there's not much we can do about. The top Ground-types in the metagame, Landorus-T and Zygarde, are quite threatening to Malaconda and can use it as setup bait. Landorus-T can force it out with the threat of a Supersonic Skystrike or a U-turn, and can use the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock or Swords Dance. Malaconda is also easy setup bait for Zygarde, as it has no way to break Zygarde's Substitute after a Coil.

Enter Ice Fang. In a very loose sense, it's essentially providing Malaconda with a physical version of Hidden Power Ice. It's weak and doesn't get STAB, so it's only useful for targeting specific threats such as Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Zygarde. In a metagame where Malaconda faces stiff competition from fellow bulky Grass-type Tangrowth and several top Ground-types are only hit neutrally by Grass, Ice Fang does a small part to help bridge the gap. Check snake's post for damage calcs.

Solar Blade - I think this is fine to include for its synergy with Drought. Solar Blade's main use over Power Whip is its 100% accuracy, making it the superior option in the sun. However, Solar Blade comes with a heavy drawback if you're faced with an opposing weather setter like Pelipper or Ninetales-A. In these match ups, clicking Solar Blade is a risky play as they can switch in and lock Malaconda into the charge turn. From there, the opponent can use the opportunity to attack Malaconda or switch to a Grass resist, resulting in a severe momentum loss for the Malaconda user and the weather in the opponent's favor. I know cbrevan likes damage calcs, but a 4% increase in damage output isn't drastically altering any match ups, so I'll spare you all the wall of text for now.

Spiky Shield - Being the massive U-turn bait that it is, Spiky Shield would be a welcome addition for Malaconda. Unlike Protect, Spiky Shield is actually worth running for scouting purposes thanks to the chip damage it causes. Not much else to say; Malaconda is a target of numerous contact moves, and Spiky Shield is a method of punishing them that's far from overbearing.

These are the moves that I'm against:

Fire coverage - Fire Fang, Fire Lash, all of it. Even with the weakest option, we're talking about a move that deals massive damage to a former hard counter to Malaconda when boosted by sun. I do agree that it wouldn't make Malaconda overbearing, but I don't think it's the direction we should go. I think it's better to add coverage moves that play to the potential strengths of Malaconda's defensive typing (e.g. Ice coverage for Ground-types) rather than mess around with Pokemon that are natural checks to Malaconda.

Will-O-Wisp - This is really over the top when it comes to Malaconda ability to deal with physical attackers. Switching into Malaconda is already annoying enough due to it having the most reliable paralysis move in the game. It doesn't also need the ability to cripple every physical attacker that isn't a Fire-type or a Guts user.

I'm more or less neutral on these moves:

Natural Gift - If anyone is bent on Fire coverage being added, Natural Gift is the most conservative way we can do so. As a move, Natural Gift is almost always considered a specialized lure or tech option, as it comes with some pretty serious drawbacks. For one, it takes up the item slot. Malaconda must forgo the recovery of Leftovers and Sitrus Berry. It can't run a generic boosting item or a Z crystal either like it theoretically could with an actual Fire move. What really hampers this option, however, is Malaconda's low Speed combined with the reliance on prediction. Malaconda must catch Scizor on the switch or hope it tries to set up SD, or else Malaconda is taken out by U-turn. Ferrothorn occasionally runs Protect to scout for Fire attacks. And if at any point Malaconda predicts incorrectly, the move is wasted. Even if it's paired with Harvest, the surprise factor is gone once Natural Gift is revealed. I'm not convinced either way on this one. It's an inconsistent option, but whether or not it's a capability we want Malaconda to have is debatable.

Power Trip - This move has no serious competitive impact. Malaconda lacks a reliable boosting move and there's no Baton Pass in the metagame, meaning that Malaconda has to rely on a gimmicky Harvest set with something like Starf Berry or Kee Berry. It's walled by Haze Hawk, it's even more vulnerable to all the same mons that threaten a good Malaconda set, it means you're not running Sitrus Berry or Leftovers for recovery, and it requires multiple boosts to even be worth it over Knock Off. Starf Berry requires being knocked below 25% and getting really lucky with boosts. Kee Berry requires Malaconda to take physical hits, boosts way too slowly, and only results in a 140 BP Power Trip if you somehow manage to get to +6 Defense (a competent opponent would stop trying to break Malaconda with physical moves long before this anyway). Let's save Power Trip for the flavor discussion.

Strength Sap - It's not a particularly good recovery move considering Malaconda's hefty base 115 HP stat, especially when it now has to compete with Drought-boosted Synthesis. The Attack drop combined with the recovery of Harvest and Sitrus Berry might be just enough to make this sustainable, but even so, my gut is telling me it'd be simpler to just run Synthesis and pair Malaconda with something that can handle physical attackers more reliably. It's interesting, but I'm not quite sold on it yet.
I couldn't agree more with sparktrain's analysis. Fire type coverage is something we do not want. We dont wanna screw up matchups that Malaconda naturally should lose, we want to improve matchups that Mal shouldn't be losing. Therefore adding Ice Fang is a wise choice. Solar Blade I also support fully. I actually have tge exact thoughts on everything except Natural Gift. Sparktrain admitted its short commings himself, and not only is it flavourful and pays honage to Harvest, its really inconsistent and would only be useful as a lure.
 

snake

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Fire-type coverage in any capacity is just bad news for Malaconda's checks. In conjunction with Drought, they get quite powerful:

252 Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sun: 296-352 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn in Sun: 244-288 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega in Sun: 276-328 (80.4 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 116+ Def Scizor-Mega in Sun: 224-268 (65.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Malaconda Fire Lash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 126-150 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sun: 102-122 (30.5 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Malaconda Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant in Sun: 476-564 (169.3 - 200.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Malaconda Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

None of these switch-ins are very safe any more, particularly with Fire Lash's defense drop. Fire Fang is less dangerous but destructive nonetheless. I'm sticking with supporting Ice Fang to make Malaconda a better Ground-type check like its typing suggests it to be.

----

Strength Sap is interesting, but I'm not sure if Malaconda /needs/ it. Definitely a cool thought experiment though, I'll be doing some research.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I absolutely despise every move brought up so far with the exception of Ice Fang and Solar Blade, which don't really have too significant of problems.

Perhaps the move I'm the most against is Spiky Shield. I view this as a generic upgrade. Yes, I get the point of trying to punish U-turners or whatever. But Malaconda's existing movepool just functions too well with Spiky Shield. The mere presence of Spiky Shield in Mala's movepool, let alone on a moveset, will cause opponents to have doubts U-turning. The problem is if they avoid U-turning, then they can hard switch and the new mon in could be faced with a glare (normally u-turn would KO or cripple Malaconda, making the threat of glare much less of a problem. Spiky Shield is a pretty darn huge buff and let's Malaconda remedy one of its biggest flaws, effectively changing Malaconda's identity. Malaconda already has so many moves that could be used to create 50/50 scenarios (sucker punch, pursuit, it's own U-turn, etc) and another something as big as Spiky Shield just doesn't sit right with me at all.

If Malaconda didn't have Glare, I wouldn't be against Spiky Shield. But I feel Spiky Shield and Glare together work very well together and offer very little safe plays for a physical opponent that is facing a Malaconda.

I also have no idea why Malaconda turned itself in the potentially biggest competitive update outside of maybe Revenankh. I think we really need to be mindful of our update principles, specifically Conservation.
 

Deck Knight

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1/8th health chip damage is really insufficient to cause doubts, as it will rarely register a KO or put an opponent into range. A set with Glare and Spiky Sheild is already fairly hurting for moveslots. Power Whip will probably go in as a STAB slot, and then you have Knock Off, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Synthesis, or Rapid Spin as your last move. If you go with Spin you don't have much offensive pressure, Pursuit is fairly situational itself, Sucker Punch is not thst good on such a passive set, Knock Off has decent power once, and of course if you don't run Synthesis you're relying a lot on Leftovers or Harvest Sitrus to keep you alive.

Malaconda's base 100 Atk and tendency towards defensive sets really makes the "50/50" concept assinine. It isn't Aegislash threatening to ruin you with a wrong prediction, we're talking 1/8th chip damage vs paralysis against U-turn.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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There's no good reason for Malaconda to learn Spiky Shield.

Claiming that Malaconda doesn't have room for Spiky Shield on a set is also somewhat absurd, as the set doesn't need Synthesis and would likely be paired with Harvest (it could be used on Drought, but wasting a turn of sun seems not very efficient). Spiky Shield, Glare, and almost any 2 of any filler attacking moves would work just fine. This has nothing to do with Malaconda's lack of power. It's about Glare and Spiky Shield have very good utility, something that exceeds the scope of what our update should be. And I'm not trying to say it's an overpowered combination, but it's one that is totally unnecessary and that just doesn't sound fun to fight against.

Want to know the last real mon that we just gave loads of utility to and said screw it, more won't hurt? It was Tomohawk. I'm not even suggesting that Malaconda has any hope of reaching the level of Tomohawk, but just adding more utility and ignoring how it interacts with options that it already has is not being very thoughtful.

There are certain U-turners, namely Scizor, that wouldn't care about the 1/8th chip damage. The majority of them would care more than the above post recognizes. It's not like Malaconda is just going to Spiky Shield once on a U-turn and then let itself be KOed the next turn when the mon tries again. The problem with Spiky Shield is that it opens up so much more options for Malaconda to aid in assisting its team.

This is not the Buff Malaconda thread. This is the Malaconda Updates thread that should only have relatively minor competitive changes. Piling things on just because they sound cool is not what we should be doing. I don't like the approach of throwing things on a mon and seeing what sticks and I don't think that any of the arguments here about spiky shield have shown that's necessary or have considered interactions with other aspects of Malaconda. What is the point of even having our Update Principles if people aren't going to actually listen to them?

We just voted in Drought, if anything I believe our competitive moves should focus on a Drought set, not give Malaconda the versatility to run Harvest and be annoying in potentially more ways.
 

snake

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Spiky Shield's contact inducing effect makes it worth a moveslot over Protect, but the main point would be making Harvest more reliable. If Protect were worth a moveslot on a Sitrus set, we'd see it, but the problem is that it just does nothing else. Spiky Shield is a way to allow Malaconda to use Harvest much more effectively (without wasting a moveslot on Protect), which I've thought was a better idea than overwriting it with Regenerator or Filter in the ability stage. Spiky Shield would mostly find its way onto Sitrus Berry sets. Lum sets are already hampered by having Rest taking up a moveslot, and Lum is probably the better set anyways in the present metagame so you can reach 100% health and have status recovery.

Speaking of actual recovery, Harvest with Sitrus has a lot of shortcomings. To start, you'll never reach >75% health unless you run Synthesis, but at that point you're running Spiky Shield / Glare / Synthesis, leaving only one moveslot left. Additionally, you have to play your luck with Harvest, even with Spiky Shield. Say you have your Sitrus Berry and you get knocked down to 12%. You recover up to 37%, and if you're lucky you'll get to 62%. If you follow up with Spiky Shield, you might just get another Sitrus Berry back and tickle the foe with 1/8 contact damage. Or, you might have reached 37% and get the Sitrus Berry that heals you up to 52% the turn you use Spiky Shield. At that point you're sitting at 52% without a Sitrus Berry, so again you have to hope Harvest works. Or Harvest might not even activate at all. This is the probem with Harvest - it's a really great ability, but Malaconda just can't use it to its full potential because it's good when it works and terrible when it doesn't. It's not like those infuriating SubSeed Exeggutor sets you see on random battles - those are good because Harvest keeps Exeggutor above 50% and Leech Seed carries you above that. Malaconda has no such luxury and will not see Leech Seed in its movepool. Spiky Shield a) punishes Knock Off before Harvest activates first, allowing it to act as soft a Knock Off tank like its typing suggests it would and protects its berry against certain targets, b) is actually worth a moveslot because of the contact damage while carrying the benefits of Protect, and c) makes Harvest a more reliable ability. Again, I believe supporting Malaconda's existing ability is a much better path than overwriting it with Filter or Regenerator.

Regarding the Glare / Spiky Shield 50/50s, against an opposing Malaconda, you either a) suck up the contact damage and don't risk the Glare, b) predict and use the free turn to switch or set up, or c) predict wrong and get hit by Glare. Prediction goes both ways in battle; if you use Spiky Shield at the wrong time or Glare at the wrong time, that puts the Malaconda user at a huge disadvantage. Additionally, the paralysis nerf means that either Malaconda has to cut into its bulk to outspeed really fast threats. You barely outspeed neutral max speed Base 95 Speed mons with min speed Malaconda, which makes Glare good, but to the point where even Choice Scarf Syclant fails to outspeed. The Spiky Shield / Glare combination is great, but it doesn't let Malaconda destroy everything by itself.

For these reasons, I'm going to withdraw any support for Strength Sap, as Spiky Shield is a much better fit for Malaconda. I will support Spiky Shield and Ice Fang, as well as Solar Blade (Power Whip is pretty much better though). If both of these moves are added though, Malaconda has a pretty weird case of 4MSS:

Malaconda @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spiky Shield
- Ice Fang
- Glare / Knock Off / Rapid Spin
- Power Whip / Knock Off / Rapid Spin

As a Ground-type check, you want to run both Ice Fang and Power Whip to cover all the Ground-types (Tangrowth runs Giga Drain and HP Ice, for a corroborating example), and then you perhaps want to run the Spiky Shield and Glare combination. However, then you lack the utility of Knock Off, which is always useful, or Rapid Spin, which is always nice to have on a bulky, non-weak user. While any combination of these moves is good, you'll never have what Malaconda would truly want, which would really be Spiky Shield / Glare / Ice Fang / Power Whip / utility (Knock Off or Rapid Spin).

Because Spiky Shield fits very well on Malaconda, punishes the foe but requires prediction from the Malaconda user, directly supports Harvest, and heavily competes for a moveslot, I support Spiky Shield, especially in conjunction with Ice Fang.
 

cbrevan

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I think we've brought up all the relevant moves to discuss, so I'd like to give us a final day to get the last say in and get a clearer picture on some moves.

Starting off with Fire coverage, I haven't seen a compelling argument to allow them. First off, the main impetus behind Drought was to support Sun teams, and in general, Sun teams aren't heavily pressured by the Pokemon Fire Fang and Fire Lash would target. Charizhard Y and other sun abusers often carry Fire coverage that put a lot of pressure on Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, so it's not as if Sun teams will be depending on Malaconda to lure in and OHKo these threats. Secondly, these moves have a pretty significant interaction with Malaconda's checks and counters, especially since Drought allows Malaconda to heavily punish these switchins, and consideirng how large of a tool Drought is, I just don't believe Fire coverage should be an option.

Moving on to Will-o-Wisp, I'm adamantly against this move because of how powerful it is and how it negatively affects many of the non Fire type checks to Malaconda. Simply put, Will-o-Wisp puts too much pressure on Malaconda's checks, and there isn't a compelling case as to why that sort of impact should be allowed.

Ice Fang is an option I'm fine with; we're not completely flipping matchups like Fire Fang will do, and we're helping solidify a type advantage over some prominent Grounds. I don't believe there has been any real pushback against this ability, so as long as that stays true, Ice Fang will be allowed.

Solar Blade is an altogether interesting option in that it synergies well with Drought, but has a pretty negative synergy with Sun teams in general. When I say this, I mean that it creates a reliance on Drought that was not there otherwise, which is a large problem when one of the main draws of choosing Drought was to ease matchups against other weathers. For example, Pelipper can come in on a Solar Blade, U-turn for free, and completely steal momentum by sending in any number of the Grass resists common to Rain teams. There's also other scenarios where Power Whip is more reliable despite the accuracy issues, such as being unable to chunk a Tyranitar switchin, and failing to beat Mega Swampert 1v1 if Rain is up. All in all, an option I'm neutral on.

In the same vein of Solar Blade, I think Power Trip is an altogether worthless move, but unlike Solar Blade, I don't see any real synergies for us to capitalize on. Starf/Kee Berry sets are really gimmicky and bad for all the reasons sparktrain brought up earlier, and since it's competitively worthless, I won't be banning it from movepools.

Natural Gift I'm neutral on; I think the lure potential is interesting, but the set itself lacks real consistency and forces Malaconda to give up Harvest related recovery. I guess it can also see use on a Drought set to lure Heatran and other 4x weak Pokemon, but that's also inconsistent and not exactly the basis for a standard set.

Spiky Shield I'm neutral on as well; I can see how it could be a minor boon to Harvest sets to help roll for berries and scout out moves, but then again Malaconda doesn't commonly run Protect to fish for berries anyways, so I'm not sure if it would realistically see much usage.

The move I'd like to see some more discussion on is Strength Sap. Specifically, I'd like to see more discussion on why it is needed, primarily because it seems to be sitting at a weird spot where it's outclassed by Synthesis in most cases, but can have a significant impact on some important macthups regardless. Really, I'd like to know if this is something Malaconda needs, since it's perhaps the most swingy option that has a chance of being allowed.
 
I never really understood why it had Leaf Blade is the first place, but it does, so I'd be happy for it to get Solar Blade from that point - I'd be honestly surprised if future gen's didn't get Solar Blade either.

I'd also like to give it Belch and Recycle chance at discussion.

Belch isn't going to hurt Fairy types too much; despite poison, it's special, non-STAB and doesn't really affect match ups unduly. Belch is an option for Arbok, and there are a decent number of non-Poison types who learn it, including several Dark types. With it's berry eating focus under Harvest, I'd see it as a non-competitive option. The only thing it can really do damage to is Whimsicott, but that's going to Tailwind and get tf outta dodge and deal 50% damage with a U-Turn anyway. Even in some theoretical modest natured set, Malaconda would need both 172EV's invested into SpA AND to correctly predict the switch to Whimsicott to OHKO it. Tapu Bulu can 2HKO it even at -1 with Superpower and Grassy Terrain healing, or switch into Belch, and OHKO with unboosted Superpower anyway unless it has at least 116EV's invested into Def.

With Recycle not being included, I can only put this down to the combination of permanent weather and potential Leppa Berry abuse - given that Recycle and Leppa is banned under Endless battle, I don't think that there's too much complaint in that to be had. It would allow it the ability to phase a bit more as well with something like multiple Red Card forced switches without relying on Dragon Tail which it's low speed cannot counter.

Malaconda has mention in its dex I believe of making terrain evil and spiky - would this not be represented by Grassy Terrain? I'd have possibly said that Forest Curse would be another one, but given the opposition that move has had in the past, and the potential for any Drought boosted Fire Coverage would make it too much of a niche changer. The +Def from Z-Grassy Terrain could come in handy too. I've done enough maths in this thread based on +1 Def with a full investment Malaconda to suggest that it wouldn't be broken whatsoever to have a 1/battle +Def either. Given the time to set up, Z-Grassy Terrain+Sun+Solar Blade could really do well without mitigating the issues of other weather abusers, but that could be limited by not allowing Solar Blade.

For which, I'd possibly consider Infestation as a suggestion to help with that to give it a more offensive set; comes in, and either forces the switch, or locks in the target, which allows the set up; a final move slot for Synthesis or Recycle Sitrus Berry. Infestation from a rotten apple, and many different interpretations with pop culture for swarms of locusts and relationships with the bible etc.

Parting Shot; Rather than U-Turn, Parting Shot would wholly fit with Mala. It's slow speed would mean it would still likely need to take a hit, but can Defensively pivot. That said, our mate Kerfluffle is still a far better Parting Shot user, and provides a very different niche than Malaconda.
 

G-Luke

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Unless I am missing something, don't the nature-based recovery berries (Figy, Wiki and the like) basically outclass Sitrus in G7?
Only if you have Gluttony, as even thought they heal 50%, they activate at 25% max health or less. Gluttony just makes you use them at 50% instead.
 

snake

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Unless I am missing something, don't the nature-based recovery berries (Figy, Wiki and the like) basically outclass Sitrus in G7?
If those activated at 50%, then most definitely. This is why Gluttony / Recycle Snorlax is really potent. However, they activate at 25% normally, and that's such a small window to activate your only healing. It's also pretty bad mathematically. Say a 100% Sitrus Mala takes 51% from an attack. You recover to 74% and can tank that attack again bar crits. But say you run one of those other berries. You take 76%, the berry activates, and then you're left at about 74%, meaning you can't tank that attack again. Sitrus is just better when you don't have Gluttony.
 
So, I don't particularly have a lot to add to most of the moves that have been discussed. I'm big on precedence for these updates, so I am myeh towards Solar Blade, but it and Ice Fang I can tolerate, along with Power Trip and Natural Gift. I am against Fire coverage of any kind, Will-o-Wisp, Belch and Recycle (I find them neither particularly flavor fitting nor with any competitive reason to be added), Grassy Terrain (Can we go one update without a terrain suggestion? Seriously?), Infestation (That can theoretically lead to stall sets like Synth, Infest, Toxic, Knock Off; which isn't particularly appealing to me), and Parting Shot (That's Kerf's thing and I don't wanna intrude).

However, there is one move that I particularly loathe the idea of giving to Malaconda, and that is Strength Sap. I hadn't seen any particular cases against it, so I felt I might as well make my best shot at one. I will try and not focus on the fact that it is currently a signature move, because I know that argument is irrelevant for many people, but for those that do care, there's your reminder.

This is probably going to be a fairly general argument as well, so, just a fair warning. Anyways, my main point throughout this is really going to focus on how Strength Sap is a generically better Synthesis, and how that may not be something we want for Malaconda. To further understand, let's break it down into its different components: Healing, Attack Drop, and PP.

Starting out with the most obvious element, healing, it has already been noted in Deck Knight's post above that Strength Sap (Hereafter denoted by SSap) heals not by percentage, like most if not all other healing moves, but instead based off of the target's attack stat. To look at the ramifications of this shift, it's first critical to look at what this move can be expected to be healing on any given turn. To do this, we really need to look at the average attack stat of all mons in the metagame, from the weakest physical attacker to the strongest. For the current OU tier + CAP (Excluding Mega Abomasnow / Manectric / Tyranitar, as they were only just released) the average base physical attack stat is 98.5333... (99 for all-intensive purposes), which is slightly lower than the pure OU average which sits at 102.6-ish. The more you know, right!

Anyways, 20 minutes of calculation aside, what does this number tell us? Well, with some help from the handy dandy damage calc, we find out that base 99 Attack varies from a minimum of 182 (0 IV, EV, and harmful nature) to a max of 326 (252/31/helpful nature). In terms of Malaconda's health, a 252 HP investment means that from the average mon in the meta, Malaconda will heal from 42% minimum to 75% maximum. Probability-wise, averagemon will lead to a SSap heal that heals at least as well as Harvest-Synthesis, but up to Drought-Synthesis levels. Of course, this is an average calculation, so of course there will be lower attack stat mons that heal FAR less, but those are generically few. Disregarding Smeargle and Chansey as pure outliers, the lowest Atk you're likely-ish to find is around 45-50 base (which is a minimum 20% heal for those wondering). Overall, the healing is going to average out to be just as good as Synthesis and occasionally better when using SSap, and we haven't even talked about its other effects yet.

The second notable fact about SSap is that it drops the attack stat of the opponent by one after healing. Again, Deck Knight's post covered some excellent examples of how this works to cripple incoming physical attackers. However, what I would ask the body (is this considered a body? I dunno!) is whether we really want Malaconda to be able to cripple the damage output of physical attackers, Pokémon which are likely to be coming in against Malaconda anyways, as special attackers often can't break through Mala without strong, super effective STABs. I think one calc, while not being at all relevant in terms of practicality, should be brought up here just to exemplify how powerful SSap can be. The following is a Bulky SD Scizor set from Smogon that theoretically came in on a SSap. Let's say it wants to get out using U-Turn, predicting a reasonable swap. From the first SSap, Mala is at full health, and Scizor is at -1 Atk. Look at what happens if Malaconda is just partially physically invested:

-1 0 Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 364-432 (83.8 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

Only partially invested physically, Malaconda lives. Now, obviously this isn't a practical example, as I've mentioned (and I think the reason is rather obvious), but now let's assume Scizor U-Turns and Mala lives. This means Mala can have just SSapped again on the U-Turn, getting back from the brink of death to anywhere from around 30% to possibly 100% depending on what comes in. One would think the logical player would send in a special attacker, or whatever has the least attack just in case, but in the heat of battle, who knows what mistakes could be made. In general, I think this calc, though not really feasible, borders on showing what a fully physically invested Malaconda could do with Strength Sap, spreading Glare, Knock Off, or what have you throughout a team that it might not have been able to otherwise. I personally do not find this a good result. Malaconda is already good at its niches. It does not need SSap to do those roles well. I do not see it as an addition we should be seriously considering because of how it can potentially screw with some physical matchups. Let's remember, this calc was a partially defensive investment against a common 4x effective move coming off of an original base 150 attack. What it could do in matchups against neutral-hitting or 2x effective non-STAB scenarios could be more leeway than we want to give it.

Lastly, I'll just throw in a note that Deck Knight also mentioned in his earlier post. SSap has twice as much PP (16) as Synthesis (8), which is a potentially dangerous increase, giving Malaconda twice as many times to heal at potentially Synthesis levels.

Overall, SSap gives Malaconda a move that heals, on average, at Synthesis levels, while simultaneously fiddling with incoming physical attackers and having twice as many chances to use the move. I personally think this combination on Malaconda is not only unnecessary, but extremely viable. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it booted Synthesis right off of Harvest sets because of its ability to mess with opposing Pokémon, kind of like a choose-your-own Intimidate. For these reasons, I simply cannot support SSap on Malaconda.

Sidenote: If anyone wants to check my math in the first section about healing, please feel free. I may have missed a better way of calculation that would reveal a different perspective on the move. .3.
 

Deck Knight

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I originally brought of Strength Sap because its mechanics align perfectly with Malaconda's role (pivoting and debuff). I'm quite glad Okamu also posted about it because I think it's something we should seriously consider because it has real, legitimate competitive weight. Strength Sap has huge upside on the first use against a particular opponent. It then decreases in effectiveness against the same opponent drastically, at least from a healing perspective. It is also counterweighted by being a move that really requires prediction to use effectively, since spamming it at full health just wastes PP and if your opponent sends in one of CAP's many low-Atk special sweepers, you're missing an opportunity to cripple them with Glare.

Averages are deceptive, so here's how much Strength Sap heals against common CAP threats (Any Calcs assuming Okamu's 252 HP/120 Def Mala):

Volkraken / Mollux: 113 HP [26.0%]
Plasmanta: 135 HP [31.1%]
Stratagem / Cyclohm / Tomohawk: 140 HP [32.2%]
Pyroak: 158 HP [36.4%]
Kitsunoh (Utility:) 243 HP [56.0%]
Syclant (LO Mix): 269 HP [62.0%] (Calc Alert: -1 4 Atk Life Orb Syclant U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 380-452 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)
(Note: Physically Invested LO Syclant OHKOs with U-turn: Calc Alert: -1 252 Atk Life Orb Syclant U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 468-551 (107.8 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Naviathan (DD+3Atks, pre-burn): 319 HP [73.5%]
Naviathan (DD Burned): 479 HP [100% HP] (Calc Alert: -1 252 Atk Guts Naviathan Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 210-248 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO.

Colossoil: 377 HP [86.9%] (Calc Alert: -1 252+ Atk Colossoil U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 272-324 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(Fun Fact: Strength Sap heals Rebound Colossoil on switch and weakens Malaconda, Soil can often OHKO: Calc: 252+ Atk Colossoil U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 408-484 (94 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO)
Colossoil (Guts): 565 HP [100% HP] (Calc Alert: -1 252+ Atk Guts Colossoil U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Malaconda: 408-480 (94 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO)

In the CAP Updates meta specifically, I think Strength Sap Malaconda which has to deal with threats like DD Naviathan that really aren't susceptible to any of its support moves would be a good force to keep some of those threats in check. It can curb the threat of DD Naviathan and let you get a safe switchin while keeping a healthy Malaconda in reserve, Colossoil is actually incentivized to run Rebound more often because it punishes the secondary effects of Strength Sap harshly, and if Mala starts investing in physical defense it's less able to take on strong special attacking threats like Mollux, Volkraken and Plasmanta.

Overall I believe (as Okamu also does, though we disagree on its presence) Strength Sap is competitively viable, would be useful specifically in the CAP Updates Meta, and has common and accessible measures of counterplay that force it to compete with the much more reliable Synthesis inside and outside of Drought. It can't replace Synthesis directly on Harvest Sets because so many strong special attacking switchins force its healing well below useful levels, and Strength Sap's healing on multiple uses against the same target scales down into uselessness quickly. Strength Sap creates openings for other support moves, it doesn't allow Malaconda to wall.
 

cbrevan

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I've given this discussion several more days than intended, mainly due to some real life obligations I had that kept me busy, so I'll conclude our competitive moveset discussion and explain which moves will be allowed and why.

First off, due to how the discussion went, I don't believe there has been a need to poll any of the options. There has been a general consensus for most of the moves in the thread, and the ones that didn't have a clear consensus have been disallowed for being outside the scope of the update.

Starting with the disallowed moves, Fire coverage, Will-o-Wisp, Parting Shot, and Strength Sap have been disallowed for being outside the scope of this update. Fire coverage has a striking effect on some of Malaconda's primary checks and counters, namely Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn, that in combination with Drought would allow Malaconda to completely switch the matchup in it's favour. Because of how it could completely negate some of Malaconda's best switchins, any Fire coverage will be disallowed from being added in the movepool stage. Will-o-Wisp is a powerful move that allows Malaconda to punish many of it's physical checks and counters, while also allowing Malaconda to buff it's defensive bulk. While Will-o-Wisp is not flipping matchups like Fire coverage, it does heavily punish Malaconda's existing counterplay to a degree that is beyond the scope of this update. Parting Shot didn't see much discussion, but given how it's a powerful move comparable to U-turn, and may even be better on a bulky pivot like Malaconda, I'm going to play it safe and disallow it. Lastly, Strength Sap saw a lot of discussion, both for and against it, but it seems that there was a consensus in that it is a solid competitive move. Given how we're trying to be conservative with these movepool additions, and how Strength Sap has the ability to positively affect Malaconda's matchup with it's checks and counters, I'll also be playing it safe here and disallowing it.

Moving on to the allowed moves, anything else that was brought up in this thread will be allowed. For some moves, such as Power Trip, Solar Blade, and Recycle, they are simply not viable enough to be worth disallowing, at least for competetive reasons. Other moves, such as Ice Fang and Spiky Shield, saw discussion for and against them, but they both had enough support behind them that I'm comfortable in allowing them.

With that done, our competitive moves discussion is over, which brings us to the flavour move discussion. Our goal is to evaluate the flavour options available to Malaconda from Gens 6 and 7 and determine if they're truly within the scope of this update. For them to be allowed, they must be competitively useless or near useless. Aside from that, this discussion is also to help establish precedent for these moves and help create arguments as to why they should be added to Malaconda, or why they should be disallowed for non competitive reasons. This will help get ideas out in the open and gauge community interest for our movepool stage.

Here's our guiding questions for this discussion:
  • What competitively useless or near useless moves from Gen 6 and 7 would you like to see on Malaconda? Why is that?
  • If it's from before Gen 6 and Gen 7, why should Malconda be receiving now?
  • Why are these moves competitively useless or near useless?
  • What precedents exist in Pokemon that could explain why this moves should be given to Malaconda?
  • Likewise, is there any precedent that leads you to believe that these moves should be disallowed?
  • Aside from precedents, in what other ways does your proposed move relate to Malaconda's typing, abilities, or identity?
 
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Outside of everything else mentioned in the thread, the only other move I particularly support adding is Brutal Swing. (Oh god, not again right?)

The move is 100% inferior to Knock off due to same PP, Accuracy, and less Base Power with no additional effect, making it competitively useless. The precedent for Malaconda to get it can be seen in the various serpentine Pokémon that receive the move already, such as the Arbok line, Gyarados, Rayquaza, and Serperior. In addition to this, Malaconda is also a dark type, with its dex entry noting how it likes to spread chaos. Brutal Swing, which hits all nearby Pokémon, reflects this sentiment and typing to a tee.

But yeah, other than that, I think all the good flavor-ish moves have been mentioned already. Good job peoples!
 

LucarioOfLegends

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[insert generic cliche Brutal Swing comment here]

It fits this time, I swear!

Other than that one, I'm on board with Recycle and Solar Blade due to thier relation to its original role as a sun abuser, and the former's relation to Harvest. I don't see Power Trip fitting as much, as it states that the user boasts its strength before attacking and the dex entries don't really reflect that mentality. Nature Power is also fitting due to its third dex entry about lush forests, and I'm genuinely surprised it didn't get it.
 

snake

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What competitively useless or near useless moves from Gen 6 and 7 would you like to see on Malaconda? Why is that?

Aside from the aformentioned moves (Power Trip, Solar Blade), there's not much else I really want to see. Brutal Swing actually fits (oml too much of this move). Grassy Terrain needs to go away though before anyone suggests it (this isn't a suggestion, I don't endorse this move).

However, there are a few older moves I'd like to see. Leer and Glare don't have a complete correlation, but Malaconda lacks a good early game move. Since Malaconda is getting Ice Fang, Thunder Fang would be a nice addition. Finally, if Malaconda is to get a Fire-type move to correlate with Drought (every Pokemon with Drought gets at least one Fire-type move, Incinerate would be the easiest to add without it being competitive, and it's nice and ironic.

Secret Power and Sleep Talk exist too

EDIT: If it's from before Gen 6 and Gen 7, why should Malconda be receiving now?

Simply put, Leer and Thunder Fang correlate pretty well well with moves Malaconda already has access to: Glare and Wild Charge. I suggest Incinerate because of Malaconda's new ability Drought.

Why are these moves competitively useless or near useless?

Leer and Thunder Fang are inferior to Screech and Wild Charge, two moves that already appear in Malaconda's movepool. Incinerate...well you're going off of base 40 SpA. Even Drought boosted Incinerate is super weak, and if you don't have 0- SpA Malaconda, you're using Malaconda wrong.

0- SpA Malaconda Incinerate vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 88-108 (25 - 30.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Malaconda Incinerate vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega in Sun: 104-124 (30.3 - 36.1%) -- 36.7% chance to 3HKO

Incinerate BP also = HP Fire BP, and if you run Incinerate / HP something else you're also using Malaconda completely wrong.

What precedents exist in Pokemon that could explain why this moves should be given to Malaconda?

Arbok is a snake, and Malaconda is a snake. Arbok gets Thunder Fang and Ice Fang, and it also gets Glare and Leer. Glare and Leer don't have a strong correlation (7 Pokemon get both, 6 get only Glare), but the connection remains nonetheless. A good frew Pokemon who get at least one of the elemental fangs by Egg Move get more than one of them. Incinerate...well doesn't really have much of a correlation, but lets face it, not many Grass-types gets Fire-type moves. Gourgheist gets it? It's still the best Fire-type move to add that's competitively irrelevant.

Aside from precedents, in what other ways does your proposed move relate to Malaconda's typing, abilities, or identity?

Malaconda bites stuff and charges with electricity somehow, Thunder Fang. Malaconda glares at its enemies and lowers defense with Screech, Leer. Malaconda just got Drought, pretty useless Fire-type Incinerate. We don't see HP Fire Malaconda, and berries are really rare in the meta.
 
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(Ay I've been waiting for this :D)

Since most of the moves that I did wanted on Malac already made the cut (namely Solar Blade and Spicky Shield), I'm just gonna go and suggest Leafage and Brutal Swing. BS is a pretty obvious choice as it was also explained by Okamu (sniped me to it) and Leafage cause of the flavour aspect of it. One controversial move I want to get out of the way is Psychic Fangs. I'm not sure what effects it can have, but a competitive aspect is present so I'm very on the line with this one.

Other suggestions looking through other post and which I also supposrt are Thunder Fang, Poison Fang (if it didn't got it before), Screech and Leer (how come it doesn't get these two? It's a Coil situation all over again).

I know Fire coverage is disallowed so I'm not sure how to feel about Incinerate and Ember, both are very weak Fire moves and require Malaconda to use its POWERFUL base 40 SpaAtk. It's not even worth it even from the Sun boost so I'm not really sure if these two should be allowed or no.
 
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snake

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(Ay I've been waiting for this :D)

Since most of the moves that I did wanted on Malac already made the cut (namely Solar Blade and Spicky Shield), I'm just gonna go and suggest Leafage and Brutal Swing. BS is a pretty obvious choice as it was also explained by Okamu (sniped me to it) and Leafage cause of the flavour aspect of it. One controversial move I want to get out of the way is Psychic Fangs. I'm not sure what effects it can have, but a competitive aspect is present so I'm very on the line with this one.

Other suggestions looking through other post and which I also supposrt are Thunder Fang, Poison Fang (if it didn't got it before), Screech and Leer (how come it doesn't get these two? It's a Coil situation all over again).

I know Fire coverage is disallowed so I'm not sure how to feel about Incinerate and Ember, both are very weak Fire moves and require Malaconda to use its POWERFUL base 40 SpaAtk. It's not even worth it even from the Sun boost so I'm not really sure if these two should be allowed or no.
It already gets Screech by Egg Move. Psychic Fangs is a powerful coverage option that probably should have gotten discussion in the last stage, so its probably too late to consider it. My only gripe with Ember is that Incinerate has wider coverage among non-Fire-types due to it being an old TM, and Ember does not have that liberty. Poison Fang is cool though.
 
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