jas61292
used substitute
I think that Drapionswing's lists above are a bit misleading. It only mentioned LO with regard to a single set, yet mentions that that set can beat Dugtrio and Garchomp despite both outspeeding, and only being beaten if you use your weakest move on a predicted switch. Furthermore, all three lists have Fidgit, when that is really not true. I mean, yes, in theory, if Fidgit is not running Earth Power and can't to anything to you (which I personally think is a bad idea for Fidgit to do), then yes Plas beats it. But at that point its an irrelevant thing, since litterally any set with any moves would beat it. But if we are actually looking at a Fidgit set that poses any threat at all, then this is not the case. Yes, HP Ice can 2HKO with LO, but not before Fidgit outspeeds and OHKOs. And without LO, it cannot get that KO at all. Only Scarf Surf would beat that set.
Ultimately though, the lists are not that different, and I think there are other important things to take into account. For example, people talk about Aura Sphere as if it is an easy replacement for HP Fire against Ferrothorn. That is simply not the case. Yes, it makes Plasmanta not helpless against Ferrothorn, which is great, but it doesn't make Plasmanta win in the same way that HP Fire does. Without LO, it it not 2HKOing. With LO, it still might not. HP Fire is getting a 2HKO guaranteed on any set, pretty much. This is an actual sacrifice. The sacrifices it is making with Surf are much less. For example, yes, Surf is not as good against Landorus-T as HP Ice. But what is really the difference? HP Ice OHKOs offensive Lando and 2HKOs defensive without a LO. With LO it OHKOs both. But Surf 2HKOs both, and Plas outspeeds. As such, the only real downside is that Plas can't switch in on it and KO from full health. But not even non-LO HP Ice can do that for sue. Gliscor is a similar situation.
Also, it is worth noting that Aura Sphere is weaker than Surf against targets they both hit equally. Lets take AV Colossoil for instance. Using the 0/220 Colo from the damage calc, if Plasmanta is LO, Surf can potentially 2HKO. Its a tiny chance, but if Rocks are in play, it is up to 40%. Aura Sphere can never 2HKO. Alternatively, if Plasmanta is not LO, Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO. Aura Sphere is not. With Rocks it is a ~60%; without, its ~3%. That is a big difference, when Colo can do so much to Plas with Sucker Punch or Pursuit. As another example, LO Surf OHKOs offensive Excadrill 100% of the time, while LO Aura Sphere only does so 37.5% of the time. That is a crucial difference when it means 62.5% of the time you are yourself KOd.
I think in general, while Aura Sphere might hit more things, the actual difference it makes is far less impactful. It is essentially replacing a move designed to hit one single Pokemon, and doing so by trading strength for extra utility. Personally I think this is something we want to have more than the more general coverage of Surf.
Ultimately though, the lists are not that different, and I think there are other important things to take into account. For example, people talk about Aura Sphere as if it is an easy replacement for HP Fire against Ferrothorn. That is simply not the case. Yes, it makes Plasmanta not helpless against Ferrothorn, which is great, but it doesn't make Plasmanta win in the same way that HP Fire does. Without LO, it it not 2HKOing. With LO, it still might not. HP Fire is getting a 2HKO guaranteed on any set, pretty much. This is an actual sacrifice. The sacrifices it is making with Surf are much less. For example, yes, Surf is not as good against Landorus-T as HP Ice. But what is really the difference? HP Ice OHKOs offensive Lando and 2HKOs defensive without a LO. With LO it OHKOs both. But Surf 2HKOs both, and Plas outspeeds. As such, the only real downside is that Plas can't switch in on it and KO from full health. But not even non-LO HP Ice can do that for sue. Gliscor is a similar situation.
Also, it is worth noting that Aura Sphere is weaker than Surf against targets they both hit equally. Lets take AV Colossoil for instance. Using the 0/220 Colo from the damage calc, if Plasmanta is LO, Surf can potentially 2HKO. Its a tiny chance, but if Rocks are in play, it is up to 40%. Aura Sphere can never 2HKO. Alternatively, if Plasmanta is not LO, Surf is a guaranteed 3HKO. Aura Sphere is not. With Rocks it is a ~60%; without, its ~3%. That is a big difference, when Colo can do so much to Plas with Sucker Punch or Pursuit. As another example, LO Surf OHKOs offensive Excadrill 100% of the time, while LO Aura Sphere only does so 37.5% of the time. That is a crucial difference when it means 62.5% of the time you are yourself KOd.
I think in general, while Aura Sphere might hit more things, the actual difference it makes is far less impactful. It is essentially replacing a move designed to hit one single Pokemon, and doing so by trading strength for extra utility. Personally I think this is something we want to have more than the more general coverage of Surf.