Charizard (OU Revamp)

Bedschibaer

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The old analysis is pretty outdated in general, doesn't really name zard's main uses, etc.

[Overview]

Charizard is the fastest user of Belly Drum in the whole tier and also packs a respectable punch on the special side. Due to its poor defensive stats and typing Charizard is unable to fill any defensive roles for your team and is rather dependant on support from its teammates. Compared to other Belly Drum users it lacks the bulk and recovery options to work consistently and it won't be able to overcome most bulky waters, but it outshines them with its speed and the ability to beat walls like Skarmory or Steelix with its STAB Fire Blasts. Generally Charizard is considered a surprise threat that most people won't expect, it needs rather complicated and risky setup, but with the right support it can become a powerhouse.

[SET]
name: BellyZard (Belly Drum)
move 1: Belly Drum
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Rock Slide
move 4: Fire Blast
item: Leftovers

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Belly Drum is a high risk/high reward move that boosts your attack to the maximum cap of the game. Earthquake and Rock Slide form your arsenal of physical attacks that hit everything in the tier apart from Skarmory at least for neutral damage. After a Belly Drum Earthquake gets several notable OHKOs such Tyranitar, Raikou, Misdreavus, Nidoking, Gengar or Rhydon. Everything else that doesn't resist it or is immune to it gets 2HKOd. Rock Slide is needed for Zapdos and the rarely seen Dragonite, but also for its flinch chance to push your luck and overcome some Pokemon. Fire Blast gets the OHKO on Skarmory, Steelix, Forretress and Exeggutor after Spikes, as well as a 2HKO on Cloyster and Heracross without the need to boost up.

Usage Tips
========

For a successful Charizard sweep you want everything that outspeeds it paralyzed or removed completely. That includes Raikou, Starmie, Gengar, Jolteon, Espeon and the rarely seen Alakazam, Aerodactyl, Jumpluff and Tauros. Charizard speed ties with Zapdos, Miltank and Tentacruel. Neutering those is advised. Alot Pokemon need to be weakened first to pull off the sweep. Cloyster needs to be at ~78%, Machamp at 72%, Marowak at ~69%, Starmie at 80%, Suicune at 54% and Vaporeon at 70%. Those percentages are the minimum damage rolls of the respectively strongest attack versus the Pokemon after the Belly Drum boost. Pokemon like Snorlax, Umbreon or Mitank are bulky enough to live any attack after the boost, but they aren't as crucial to be weakened since they won't be able to fend off Charizard in one turn either. The other issue you have with Charizard is getting a free turn to use Belly Drum without being taken down in the process. Threatening the immediate OHKO on Skarmory, Forretress or Exeggutor is a good way to force a switch and get off the Belly Drum. It can also be done with Reflect or Light Screen support, inflicting status to the opposing team or by channeling your luck with fully paralyzed or resting Pokemon on the opposing side. You have to be aware that Charizard usually has only a single shot at doing anything in a game. You will usually not get any opportunities to switch out and retry sweeping at a later point of the game, which means that very often you will have to go for speed ties, flinches: things that can make Charizard a powerful standalone threat too, after Starmie or Cloyster are removed.


Team Options
========

What pairs best with the lizard is Cloyster, which can explode on Raikou or Zapdos and most importantly Starmie. It also provides spikes which can be used to wear down the Pokemon listed above. Paralysis and Sleep spreading is quite essential to hit the key Pokemon on the opposing team to attempt a sweep. Exeggutor for example can be quite useful here since it has access to both status inducing moves in Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, it can also explode on Zapdos, Raikou or Umbreon. Gengar can be an effective teammate because it can explode on Raikou quite reliably. Your Snorlax can be used to spread status with Body Slam or to take out walls like Suicune with Self Destruct, Lovely Kiss or Belly Drum. Reflect and/or Light Screen users pair up well with Charizard to support it when setting up. Charizard teams often run the risk of having too much support dedicated to it so they are lacking defensive capabilities to endure a whole battle. Keep in mind that you are basically down one Pokemon, since you have to keep your Charizard back for the longest part of the battle, and it wouldn't be able to fill any defensive roles anyways.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
===========

Charizard barely has any viable other options. Flamethrower misses out on the OHKO on Skarmory, the accuracy might come in handy though. Hyper Beam is an interesting option that can kill off certain bulky mons like Snorlax or Suicune after Spikes. The recharge will make Charizard basically useless afterwards, but you can still take down something you wouldn't be able to otherwise, which can lead to beneficial gamestates. Sunny Day is a possibility since it doesn't only boost your attacks for useful 2HKOs on Zapdos or Raikou, it also weakens incoming Water type attacks and makes the common Thunder more inaccurate.

Checks and Counters
=============

Starmie is probably the best counter to this, as it outspeeds Charizard and it can take it down after the Belly Drum. Raikou and Gengar outspeed Charizard too and they can beat it with Thunder or Thunderbolt, they have to be weary about the OHKO after the boost though. Zapdos is a little bit shakier because it's just as fast as Charizard and it goes down to a Rock Slide. Keeping bulky Pokemon like Suicune or Snorlax healthy throughout the game is a good way to stop an attempted sweep. Slowbro is a niche Pokemon that does stop Charizard really effectively. Charizard is unable to take any form of status and it has to cut its health to half to even be threatening, which makes just attacking it when it is in a good way to keep it in check and prevent it from boosting up. Preventing the neccessary support Charizard needs to set up is usually enough to render Charizard useless, make sure to not let status get spread too far and try to perserve key Pokemon such as Starmie or the Electrics.
 
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Isa

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EQ and RS is perfect coverage

while snorlax and blissey "need to be" at certain percentages neither of them threaten an ohko on post-drumlax (lax DEdge deals 53% max, you're at 56% due to lefties), same goes for umbreon but at least umbreon can threaten a charm and MAYBE live whereas most blisseys will just roll over and die

gengar tbolt is a roll post-lefties: Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Charizard: 183-216 (50.9 - 60.1%)
miltank can't stop zard with growl and bslam isnt even a 2hko post-drum so it has to go for the paralysis, not a check imo
zapdos is a 35/65 (thunder accuracy) so not too reliable either
heracross does ~12% with megahorn and nobody uses hp rock seriously do they

tl;dr there's a lot of mons that you mention as "YOU MUST WEAKEN THESE BEFOREHAND" when in reality that need simply isn't there. you're underselling charizard (even though it's not good, it's not all that bad)
 

Jorgen

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Gengar is nice support. Booms on Raikou. As is Twave Zapdos for forcing Raikous to Rest.

Under usage tips, Charizard's most common setup opportunity is actually getting in on something it OHKOs with Fire Blast (like, say, Skarm or Egg or Forry) and drumming on the impending switch. Not so much by spreading paralysis or whatnot; that's meant to keep a sweep going once it starts.

Charizard's do-or-die nature could be emphasized more. Once you drum, you're committed to a sweep unless Starmie comes right in or something. You go for the 30% flinches, the 50% speed ties with Zard, whereas you play more conservatively with other mons.

Umbreon is not a Charizard counter.

I think the analysis plays up the need for support too much. Thanks to the ability to go for flinches, Zard can work very well as a standalone threat (well, almost; it needs Cloyster to deal with Starmie, the one "true" counter). The fact that Zard is a one-dimensional and somewhat luck-based mon is the main detriment to its usage (and you address its one-dimensionality with the "playing one mon down" thing).
 
Under usage tips, Charizard's most common setup opportunity is actually getting in on something it OHKOs with Fire Blast (like, say, Skarm or Egg or Forry) and drumming on the impending switch. Not so much by spreading paralysis or whatnot; that's meant to keep a sweep going once it starts.
^^^this.

I actually like using Fire types in GSC and definitely I find the best way to get use out of them is to pair them with things that lure in Grass/Steels. With Spikes down Fire Blast hits most things for some good damage. Idk what the main pokemon you'd look at for this are, especially because it can be a little situational at times, but I guess Lax, Leech Seed anything (<3 Meganium), ground types, lolScizor are things to note.

But idk, I'm still not on the same level as you guys when it comes to gsc so w/e
 
hyper beam.

the romanticized version of charizard 6-0s teams. in reality, even with the enemy team "prepped" and ready, you end up falling short after 1-2. hyper beam gets you the kos you wouldn't otherwise get, allowing you take down that one extra pokemon as you go down. i don't know the exact numbers, but i believe it's a chance to ohko snorlax/miltank and gets really close on suicune. kills random stuff like vap and pgon2 also.
 

Mr.E

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But then what do you put Hyper Beam over anyway? You need Rock Slide to kill Zapdos and for flinching the laundry list of crap Charizard fails to OHKO with any attack, you need EQ or at least Return to OHKO the other stuff and anything weakened in the first group, and replacing Fire Blast doesn't make much sense since OHKOing Skarm/Steelix/Forry is the only cool thing Charizard actually does over Marowak and other Drummers. I guess if you wanted to run Hyper Beam you would just replace one of those and hope you don't end up needing it, although it's still nothing more than a glorified Explosion.
 

Jorgen

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You'd probably run it over Rock Slide because Hyper Beam OHKOs everything Rock Slide does and then some.
 
either of the physicals works. you don't run hyper beam to go for a clean win, you run hyper beam to get a kill you shouldn't get. IE snorlax, suicune, miltank, whatever. getting 90% chance to guarantee kill is way better than 30% flinching or 6% critting. if your sweep is destined to end anyway, you might as well bring something down with you that you shouldn't have. and yes, much like explosion, you'd want to play hyper beam charizard more mid-game to break holes rather than end game sweeper.

ohko-ing miltank isn't very important for charizard, but is probably pretty damn important for the other 5 mons on your team.

you can probably run sunny day or someshit too. 50% accurate thunders and 50% power surfs; i believe you're clean two shotting both electrics, and wrecking anything neutral that isn't snorlax. hell, you're clean 3 shotting snorlax too. charizards hitting over 90% what moltres does with fb.

bd, hb, sd, fb. that's the man's charizard.

probably not.

but i believe that's what i used/would've used against you if you didn't gg out after tauros/pikachu.
 

Bedschibaer

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EQ and RS is perfect coverage

while snorlax and blissey "need to be" at certain percentages neither of them threaten an ohko on post-drumlax (lax DEdge deals 53% max, you're at 56% due to lefties), same goes for umbreon but at least umbreon can threaten a charm and MAYBE live whereas most blisseys will just roll over and die

gengar tbolt is a roll post-lefties: Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Charizard: 183-216 (50.9 - 60.1%)
miltank can't stop zard with growl and bslam isnt even a 2hko post-drum so it has to go for the paralysis, not a check imo
zapdos is a 35/65 (thunder accuracy) so not too reliable either
heracross does ~12% with megahorn and nobody uses hp rock seriously do they

tl;dr there's a lot of mons that you mention as "YOU MUST WEAKEN THESE BEFOREHAND" when in reality that need simply isn't there. you're underselling charizard (even though it's not good, it's not all that bad)
Implemented those

Gengar is nice support. Booms on Raikou. As is Twave Zapdos for forcing Raikous to Rest.

Under usage tips, Charizard's most common setup opportunity is actually getting in on something it OHKOs with Fire Blast (like, say, Skarm or Egg or Forry) and drumming on the impending switch. Not so much by spreading paralysis or whatnot; that's meant to keep a sweep going once it starts.

Charizard's do-or-die nature could be emphasized more. Once you drum, you're committed to a sweep unless Starmie comes right in or something. You go for the 30% flinches, the 50% speed ties with Zard, whereas you play more conservatively with other mons.

Umbreon is not a Charizard counter.

I think the analysis plays up the need for support too much. Thanks to the ability to go for flinches, Zard can work very well as a standalone threat (well, almost; it needs Cloyster to deal with Starmie, the one "true" counter). The fact that Zard is a one-dimensional and somewhat luck-based mon is the main detriment to its usage (and you address its one-dimensionality with the "playing one mon down" thing).
Implemented those too, hope with the changes the need for support part isn't too big anymore

@ the rest
I explained what hyper beam does a bit more precisely, but i don't think it should be more than an other option.
 

Sapientia

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Mention Pink/Polkadot Bow alongside Hyper Beam, since +6 Hyper Beam and Spikes on their own still miss out on some crucial KOs! (All three of them together still do so in Suicune's case, however ~69% is a much better chance than ~10%.)

+6 Charizard Hyper Beam vs. Suicune: 326-384 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (~10% after Spikes and Leftovers)
+6 Polkadot Bow Charizard Hyper Beam vs. Suicune: 359-422 (89 - 104.7%) -- 30.8% chance to OHKO (~69% after Spikes and Leftovers)

+6 Charizard Hyper Beam vs. Snorlax: 469-552 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 35.9% chance to OHKO (~74% after Spikes and Leftovers)
+6 Polkadot Bow Charizard Hyper Beam vs. Snorlax: 516-607 (98.6 - 116%) -- 92.3% chance to OHKO (100% after Spikes and Leftovers)

If Sunny Day Charizard is another option, bring up Substitute (guaranteed to survive a neutral Zapdos Hidden Power even with HP Grass IVs, benefits from Thunder missing in the sun) and Counter (discourages Snorlax from attacking it straight on) as well.
 
Overview - I would add a second sentence praising how threatening its offensive presence is before the more negative sentences.

"apart from Skarmory" still needs to be removed from the set comments.

That includes Raikou, Starmie, Gengar, Jolteon, Espeon and the rarely seen Alakazam, Aerodactyl, Jumpluff and Tauros.
Espeon can be removed since it loses to 56% +6 Charizard almost all of the time. Jumpluff and Tauros probably don't need to be mentioned since they're virtually never used in OU.

The health percentages are a little misleading because you aren't guaranteed a sweep even if you do weaken all of those Pokemon to those extents, and likewise it is still possible to sweep even if those Pokemon are at higher health. The presence or absence of Spikes/Leftovers can also confuse these numbers. It might be a better idea to say you are listing Pokemon that are slower but survive and KO Charizard in return, and then just provide damage calcs on separate lines. However, being vague and simply saying they should ideally be weakened before Charizard sets up might also suffice.

Miracle Berry should be at least mentioned as an option.

Maybe note somewhere that the chance of 2 successive Rock Slide flinches is higher than the chance of a single EQ crit, without even factoring in the RS CH chance. This is useful when having to face a full health Suicune or a Snorlax that has you in KO range.

Steelix should be mentioned as another ideal candidate to set up against.

Charizard teams often run the risk of having too much support dedicated to it so they are lacking defensive capabilities to endure a whole battle. Keep in mind that you are basically down one Pokemon, since you have to keep your Charizard back for the longest part of the battle, and it wouldn't be able to fill any defensive roles anyways.
I think this is a bit exaggerated. The former sentence doesn't seem necessary to me, I don't think it really applies to Charizard moreso than it does other Pokemon. It isn't uncommon for teams to run other fragile Pokemon that don't want to take any hits, so Charizard isn't too different in that respect either. I think you could at least rephrase and emphasise its lack of defensive utility some other way.

Overall I think this analysis is looking pretty good.

Bedschibaer
 

Lavos

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I think this is a great analysis. Completely agree with you that Hyper Beam is just a meme, realistically you're going to be using it on the first Pokemon they send out once you're +6 (because why would they go to something that dies to a standard move?) so you trade 1 for 1 because there's so much that can come in and revenge kill a 63% Zard. Not worth the setup, you're better off going for what usually amounts to 1 Rock Slide flinch to win the game outright.

Agree with Earthworm that MiracleBerry should at least be mentioned in Usage Tips or Other Options, I'm not saying it's usually the better item but it has a significant niche, especially when paired with screens. Outside of defensive uses, which Zard is barely doing in the first place, the only time when I think Leftovers is absolutely crucial is when you're trying to set up in front of D-Edge Lax, and that's pretty rare.

Once the MiracleBerry bit is implemented, consider it QC'd 1/2
 

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