[COMPLETED] Scizor

alexwolf

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Fuck, i am an idiot. Also, Thief definitely needs to be included somewhere, we will talk about this on irc with the QC team over the weekend and let you know.
 
On the bulky Mega Scizor set, I would tweak the EV spread to 248 HP/ 16 Atk/ 244 SDef. An odd HP stat rounds down hazard damage and 16 EVs hits a "magic EV number" where you get +2 stat points for 4 EVs with a boosting nature. You still retain your goal of avoiding the 2HKO from Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball after SR.

I would also mention the use of U-turn (possibly slashed after X-Scissor) as it helps you scout and wear down Scizor's counters/checks until you can ultimately SD and sweep with BP. From my experience I usually sweep with BP anyway and rarely use the other attacking move after I've SD'ed. I've tried using X-Scissor but almost always find myself missing the utility of U-turn, but I guess that says more about my style of battling than which is the superior choice (U-turn vs. X-Scissor).
 
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On the bulky Mega Scizor set, I would tweak the EV spread to 248 HP/ 16 Atk/ 244 SDef. An odd HP stat rounds down hazard damage and 16 EVs hits a "magic EV number" where you get +2 stat points for 4 EVs with a boosting nature. You still retain your goal of avoiding the 2HKO from Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball after SR.

I would also mention the use of U-turn (possibly slashed after X-Scissor) as it helps you scout and wear down Scizor's counters/checks until you can ultimately SD and sweep with BP. From my experience I usually sweep with BP anyway and rarely use the other attacking move after I've SD'ed. I've tried using X-Scissor but almost always find myself missing the utility of U-turn, but I guess that says more about my style of battling than which is the superior choice (U-turn vs. X-Scissor).
I'd say Thief is superior since it lets you get past Aegislash (who otherwise walls you to kingdom come). 2 SDs and Aegis is finished. Beyond that it's got some solid neutral coverage with the steel nerf (and wrecks Jellicent).
 
On the bulky Mega Scizor set, I would tweak the EV spread to 248 HP/ 16 Atk/ 244 SDef. An odd HP stat rounds down hazard damage and 16 EVs hits a "magic EV number" where you get +2 stat points for 4 EVs with a boosting nature. You still retain your goal of avoiding the 2HKO from Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball after SR.

I would also mention the use of U-turn (possibly slashed after X-Scissor) as it helps you scout and wear down Scizor's counters/checks until you can ultimately SD and sweep with BP. From my experience I usually sweep with BP anyway and rarely use the other attacking move after I've SD'ed. I've tried using X-Scissor but almost always find myself missing the utility of U-turn, but I guess that says more about my style of battling than which is the superior choice (U-turn vs. X-Scissor).
248 HP/8 Atk/252 SpDef with Adamant is the minimum you need to never be OHKO'd by Mega Gengar's HP Fire after SR damage. I haven't seen any of them running HP Fire this gen with the Steel nerf, but I don't think you lose out on any KO's with the lowered Atk, since you still get the 2HKO back on Mega Gengar after SR damage. The extra SpDef doesn't seem to guarentee anything else, but it does give a slightly better chance of surviving Mega Alakazam's HP Fire after SR damage and 4 SpAtk Mega Absol's Fire Blast after SR damage.
 

alexwolf

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I talked with dragonuser about Scizor on irc and here is what we agreed on:
  • There should be a SpD SD set for regular Scizor
  • There should be an offensive SD set for Mega Scizor
dragonuser also said that he would like to see Pursuit slashed with SD on the SpD set that we want you to add for regular Scizor, but i think it's better to mention a very specially bulky spread on the AC of the trapper set.

In addition, Thief should be slashed with Brick Break on both offensive SD sets (regular Scizor and the one we want you to add for Mega Scizor). It gives you a 90 BP Dark move, which is not only stronger against a lot of Steel-types neutral to Fighting (Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor), but it also hits Aegislash super effectively, preventing it from walling you. Oh, and it hits Talonflame, Charizard, and Tentacruel for respectable damage on the switch, which would otherwise wall your entire moveset (or you can even stay in against Tentacruel after boosting and try to OHKO it, if you avoid the burn from Scald). Whether it should be slashed first or not i am not sure yet, so there should be some discussion about it.

Finally, U-turn should be slashed on both SpD SD sets (for regular and Mega Scizor), probably even before X-Scissor, but that's up for debate so i am just listing my preference for now.

Oh, and Thief should be slashed with Pursuit on the CB set for those that don't need the latter's utility, it's a very nice weapon against Aegislash, Talonflame, and Charizard.
 
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Since we are discussing an SD set for Mega Scizor, here is what I believe it should look like

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
252 Atk / 52 HP / 204 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- X-Scissor
- Thief / Brick Break

This is essentially the same thing as standard SD Scizor, except its weaker but has better overall bulk and Speed, aiding its setup opportunities. 204 EVs in Speed is all you really need, as it allows Mega-Scizor to outpace minimum Speed Tentacruel and 2HKO it with a +2 Thief. In the set comments, you should mention how Mega Scizor greater bulk allows it to stand up against priority users better than regular Scizor (CB Talonflame OHKOes regular SD Scizor after rocks and 1 layer of spikes, unlike Mega Scizor for example).

Also Thief > Brick Break for the most part now that Blaziken is banned. Getting a stronger hit on the likes of Talonflame, opposing Scizor, Aegislash, and Skarmory is pretty neat and Scizor actually gets nearly perfect coverage with X-Scissors, Bullet Punch, and Theif. Brick Break still has its uses for hitting Lucario and bulky Steel-types like Ferrothorn for super effective damage, which is why it still deserves a slash.

Also all Blaziken mentions should be removed, as it is banned.
 
I did a calculation on the Scizorite set bullet punch against 4HP Mega-Gengar and it seems to only 2HKO 82.42% of the time instead of guaranteed 2HKO as stated in the analysis. Is this right? Or did I mess something up?
 
Since we are discussing an SD set for Mega Scizor, here is what I believe it should look like

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
252 Atk / 52 HP / 204 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- X-Scissor
- Thief / Brick Break

This is essentially the same thing as standard SD Scizor, except its weaker but has better overall bulk and Speed, aiding its setup opportunities. 204 EVs in Speed is all you really need, as it allows Mega-Scizor to outpace minimum Speed Tentacruel and 2HKO it with a +2 Thief. In the set comments, you should mention how Mega Scizor greater bulk allows it to stand up against priority users better than regular Scizor (CB Talonflame OHKOes regular SD Scizor after rocks and 1 layer of spikes, unlike Mega Scizor for example).

Also Thief > Brick Break for the most part now that Blaziken is banned. Getting a stronger hit on the likes of Talonflame, opposing Scizor, Aegislash, and Skarmory is pretty neat and Scizor actually gets nearly perfect coverage with X-Scissors, Bullet Punch, and Theif. Brick Break still has its uses for hitting Lucario and bulky Steel-types like Ferrothorn for super effective damage, which is why it still deserves a slash.

Also all Blaziken mentions should be removed, as it is banned.
You don't need BB to hit steels since they do not resist dark anyway sans Bisharp (who no one uses), or Lucario (who you shold be BPing anyway). Its useful against Klefki for breaking screens, but you should never be staying in on that thing since it can potentially OHKO you with Foul Play.

I did a calculation on the Scizorite set bullet punch against 4HP Mega-Gengar and it seems to only 2HKO 82.42% of the time instead of guaranteed 2HKO as stated in the analysis. Is this right? Or did I mess something up?
You have to remember that 90% of the time you will be SDing with Megazor if you can, and that scraped 2HKO can be a guaranteed 2HKO and possible OHKO after enough hazard switch-ins.
 
I would like to propose a SD set as well. I found the increased power to be useful:

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost / X-Scissors
- Bullet Punch
- Thief

I think this set should be added either as a more offensive Megazor set or replace the other set completely. Here is why:

To begin I would like to point out some significant damage outputs that this new Scizor obtains after a single Swords Dance compared to those of the alternative Scizorite set (EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 SpD) after a single Swords Dance with the attack Thief:

(A) Guaranteed OHKO on 252/4def Aegislash (shield forme)
~compared to~
31.25% chance to OHKO
~in return~
252+spatk Shadow Ball scores guaranteed 2HKO on the new set compared to an only 37.89% chance to 2HKO on old set. (Kind of a bummer, but do you really want to risk your Scizor on a worse than Focus Blast chance?)

(B) Guaranteed 3HKO after lefties on 252/252+def Skarm
~compared to~
Approximately 50% to 3HKO after lefties

(C) 68.75% chance to OHKO 252/252+def Reniclus
~compared to~
0% chance to OHKO with 98.11% damage max
~in return~
4spatk Reniclus Hidden Power Fire (which it’s unlikely to even have) fails to OHKO either set, even after rocks

(D) 75% chance to OHKO 4/0def Excadrill with a guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~compared to~
6.25% chance to OHKO and 81.25% chance to OHKO after rocks


Now some significant calculations with the attack Bullet Punch, keep in mind that these calculations take into account a single Swords Dance boost as well:

(A) 56.25% chance to OHKO 248/252+ Togekiss with a guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~compared to~
0% chance to OHKO with 96.51% damage max although maintains guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~in return~
8spatk Togekiss Flamethrower always OHKOs new set while giving 50% survival rate to older set. Fire Blast score guaranteed OHKO on both sets. (However, if you know Togekiss has a fire move you're not gonna being staying in with Scizor anyway)

(B) Guaranteed OHKO on 4/0def Mega-Gengar
~compared to~
62.5% chance to OHKO
~in return~
New set succumbs to 2HKO from shadow ball, but can more reliably beat Gengar. (62.5% is a pretty big risk to have your Scizor be drained to red)

(D) Guaranteed 2HKO on 4/0def Greninja
~compared to~
24.22% chance to 2HKO
~in return~
New set succumbs to guaranteed 2HKO by Greninja 252 Life Orb Surf while old set only has 15.63% chance to get 2HKOd. Both sets are 2HKOd by Hydro Pump. (This hurts, although if Greninja used ice beam the turn before Scizor comes in the new set can get a guaranteed 2HKO after Life Orb recoil)

(E) Guaranteed OHKO on 4/0def Salamence after rocks
~compared to~
87.5% chance to OHKO after rocks


As can be seen from these calculations (I think), this new set maintains enough bulk and adds enough power to more reliably beat several important walls and revenge killers.

At the very least this set puts more pressure on the enemy with only one set-up turn required. Also, this set's more sure nature when it comes to OHKOs (and also knowing when you're going to get OHKOd) supports the ideal of survivability that bulky SD Megazor is meant for. Additionally, as one would expect, this set punishes switch ins a bit more and sports the same physical bulk.


In my edit I added a few more calculations as well as added comments on a few. I didn't include any calculations including Ferrothorn, Talonflame, and Rotom-W because it seems like Scizor in general is screwed by those Pokemon, set regardless.
 
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I would like to propose a SD set as well. I found the increased power to be useful:

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Atk / 64 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Roost / X-Scissors
- Bullet Punch
- Thief

I think this set should be added either as a more offensive Megazor set or replace the other set completely. Here is why:

To begin I would like to point out some significant damage outputs that this new Scizor obtains after a single Swords Dance compared to those of the alternative Scizorite set (EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 SpD) after a single Swords Dance with the attack Thief:

(A) Guaranteed OHKO on 252/4def Aegislash (shield forme)
~compared to~
31.25% chance to OHKO
~in return~
252+spatk Shadow Ball scores guaranteed 2HKO on the new set compared to an only 37.89% chance to 2HKO on old set. (Kind of a bummer, but do you really want to risk your Scizor on a worse than Focus Blast chance?)

(B) Guaranteed 3HKO after lefties on 252/252+def Skarm
~compared to~
Approximately 50% to 3HKO after lefties

(C) 68.75% chance to OHKO 252/252+def Reniclus
~compared to~
0% chance to OHKO with 98.11% damage max
~in return~
4spatk Reniclus Hidden Power Fire (which it’s unlikely to even have) fails to OHKO either set, even after rocks

(D) 75% chance to OHKO 4/0def Excadrill with a guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~compared to~
6.25% chance to OHKO and 81.25% chance to OHKO after rocks


Now some significant calculations with the attack Bullet Punch, keep in mind that these calculations take into account a single Swords Dance boost as well:

(A) 56.25% chance to OHKO 248/252+ Togekiss with a guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~compared to~
0% chance to OHKO with 96.51% damage max although maintains guaranteed OHKO after rocks
~in return~
8spatk Togekiss Flamethrower always OHKOs new set while giving 50% survival rate to older set. Fire Blast score guaranteed OHKO on both sets. (However, if you know Togekiss has a fire move you're not gonna being staying in with Scizor anyway)

(B) Guaranteed OHKO on 4/0def Mega-Gengar
~compared to~
62.5% chance to OHKO
~in return~
New set succumbs to 2HKO from shadow ball, but can more reliably beat Gengar. (62.5% is a pretty big risk to have your Scizor be drained to red)

(D) Guaranteed 2HKO on 4/0def Greninja
~compared to~
24.22% chance to 2HKO
~in return~
New set succumbs to guaranteed 2HKO by Greninja 252 Life Orb Surf while old set only has 15.63% chance to get 2HKOd. Both sets are 2HKOd by Hydro Pump. (This hurts, although if Greninja used ice beam the turn before Scizor comes in the new set can get a guaranteed 2HKO after Life Orb recoil)

(E) Guaranteed OHKO on 4/0def Salamence after rocks
~compared to~
87.5% chance to OHKO after rocks


As can be seen from these calculations (I think), this new set maintains enough bulk and adds enough power to more reliably beat several important walls and revenge killers.

At the very least this set puts more pressure on the enemy with only one set-up turn required. Also, this set's more sure nature when it comes to OHKOs (and also knowing when you're going to get OHKOd) supports the ideal of survivability that bulky SD Megazor is meant for. Additionally, as one would expect, this set punishes switch ins a bit more and sports the same physical bulk.


In my edit I added a few more calculations as well as added comments on a few. I didn't include any calculations including Ferrothorn, Talonflame, and Rotom-W because it seems like Scizor in general is screwed by those Pokemon, set regardless.

Just would like to reccommend adding 32 speed to outpace base 77s (notable 8 speed defensive Heatran post-Pokebank).
 
You should include that Magnezone can trap and obliterate Scizor with HP Fire or 2HKO with Thunderbolt if it lacks HP Fire for some reason.

Magneton can do the same but misses a guaranteed OHKO with HP Fire(only 25%) and 2HKO with Thunderbolt(though the odds of this is still high of 2HKOing at 94.1%) but the odds of HP Fire OHKOing increases to 93.8% with Stealth Rock, guaranteed with a layer of Spikes as well or just 2 layers of Spikes on its own. I mentioned Magneton with specific calcs because its Timid-Natured Choice Scarf set is the only viable set it has in OU, and it is able to trap and finish off a -1 def(Close Combat) Mega Lucario which is something that Magnezone cannot do even with a Choice Scarf as it is outran.
 
You should include that Magnezone can trap and obliterate Scizor with HP Fire or 2HKO with Thunderbolt if it lacks HP Fire for some reason.

Magneton can do the same but misses a guaranteed OHKO with HP Fire(only 25%) and 2HKO with Thunderbolt(though the odds of this is still high of 2HKOing at 94.1%) but the odds of HP Fire OHKOing increases to 93.8% with Stealth Rock, guaranteed with a layer of Spikes as well or just 2 layers of Spikes on its own. I mentioned Magneton with specific calcs because its Timid-Natured Choice Scarf set is the only viable set it has in OU, and it is able to trap and finish off a -1 def(Close Combat) Mega Lucario which is something that Magnezone cannot do even with a Choice Scarf as it is outran.
Only problem is that you need serious speed investment to outspeed Mega Scizor (for Magnezone, anyway). 15 base speed difference is pretty big compared to 5 with regular scizor. Not to mention it is bulkier so it can possibly take HP fires from Magneton with enough investment. The Steel Nerf also means that MegaZor's Thief/Knock Off it carries for Aegislash will hit that much harder on Magnezone/Magneton.
 

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