[COMPLETED] Talonflame

are we really not including a cb set? "4x sr weak" but all you do is brave bird anyway...the bird's not very good when they have a hard counter like tyranitar regardless, but what makes it usable is it acts a security blanket to any threat that was able to boost with immunity or when dealing with a fast scarfer/general mon that your team couldn't normally handle. brave bird is all you use with this set in practice tbh, i like sharp beak sd as a "bluff a choice set" but to not include a choice set, i cant get with that at all. brave bird/flare blitz/uturn/filler (sleep talk or aerial ace possibly) with adamant cb and pretty much max bulk and atk
 

alexwolf

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are we really not including a cb set? "4x sr weak" but all you do is brave bird anyway...the bird's not very good when they have a hard counter like tyranitar regardless, but what makes it usable is it acts a security blanket to any threat that was able to boost with immunity or when dealing with a fast scarfer/general mon that your team couldn't normally handle. brave bird is all you use with this set in practice tbh, i like sharp beak sd as a "bluff a choice set" but to not include a choice set, i cant get with that at all. brave bird/flare blitz/uturn/filler (sleep talk or aerial ace possibly) with adamant cb and pretty much max bulk and atk
Done!

Can i get some QC input on the CB set before i write it up?
 
hmm is a sashed set viable? to get at least 1 gaurenteed boost, then use priority healing in roost, then priority brave bird spaming?, And also is a banded set viable for brave bird to be the main move of choice?
Also through playing quite a bit of pokebank ou, i have learned that a sashed chandelure is a great counter as shadow ball 2hko's it with no hazzards, and ohko's with hazards down, as well as being able to get a flash fire boost if you predict properly, other than that this article is really helpful and that ev spread is really smart
 

Jibaku

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Would remove heliolisk from counters because 62/52 bulk does nothing to stop a boosted Brave Bird of any sort. Even CB BB does like 75% min.

Rotom doesn't get Pain Split, and Dragonite doesn't get Extreme Speed

(yet)
 

alexwolf

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I'd mention Dugtrio as a good partner for trapping Heatran and most rocks/electrics.
Heatran is not available yet and most of its current checks don't care about Dugtrio, such as defensive Gyarados, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Rotom-W. Only Tyranitar cares and it's not enough for Dugtrio to get a mention, when it will be useless against the majority of Talonflame's checks and counters.

In regards to the second set, why use a status move if you have a Choice Band?
Because honestly Talonflame doesn't have a whole lot of options. You just use it for Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Rotom-W, where it is your best at getting past them later.

hmm is a sashed set viable? to get at least 1 gaurenteed boost, then use priority healing in roost, then priority brave bird spaming?, And also is a banded set viable for brave bird to be the main move of choice?
Also through playing quite a bit of pokebank ou, i have learned that a sashed chandelure is a great counter as shadow ball 2hko's it with no hazzards, and ohko's with hazards down, as well as being able to get a flash fire boost if you predict properly, other than that this article is really helpful and that ev spread is really smart
You never use Focus Sash on a Pokemon whose main means of damage is a recoil move.

Would remove heliolisk from counters because 62/52 bulk does nothing to stop a boosted Brave Bird of any sort. Even CB BB does like 75% min.

Rotom doesn't get Pain Split, and Dragonite doesn't get Extreme Speed

(yet)
Thx Jibaku, removing all those three.
 
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Jukain

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ok man look this is cool but it could use some improvement to make it great

<p>Gale Wings gives Talonflame priority on any Flying-type move, making it an excellent revenge killer and sweeper. Brave Bird is its primary offensive option, easily OHKOing Pokemon such as Volcarona and Blaziken, as well as Azumarill after the latter has used Belly Drum. OHKOing Azumarill after a BD isn't really impressive...OHKOing Volcarona and Blaziken with an SE move isn't either. Emphasize how Brave Bird is its means of revenge killing. Flare Blitz deals with most of the Steel-types that resist Brave Bird and some Electric-types on the switch-in. This is very obvious. Mention specific targets in the metagame! Don't be so general. Swords Dance pumps up Talonflame's power to respectable levels, making Brave Bird powerful enough to OHKO most offensive Pokemon that don't resist it at +2. SD is a boosting move. Of course it makes Talonflame more powerful. I mean, anyone who knows what SD does could tell you that. What's important is that the reader knows what SD is useful for. Does it make Talonflame a sweeper? Does it simply make it powerful enough to compete? Just scrap the rest of the sentence and tell me that. Roost and big HP investment make Talonflame a great switch-in to Volcarona, Scizor, and Blaziken, provided Stealth Rock is off the field. Tailwind is another useful move that gets priority from Gale Wings and allows Talonflame's team to revenge kill fast threats that even Talonflame can't. This is choppy. Also, you don't /really/ state the ultimate usefulness of it. Its most useful because it enables slower teammates to shine. The revenge killing things in a pinch deal is cool...but that's Talonflame's job. You can mention a few things, but there really isn't a whole lot faster than it that Talonflame can't revenge kill. Will-O-Wisp might seem a bit of out of place Exon such an offensive set, but it's Talonflame's best answer to some of its best checks and counters, such as Tyranitar, physically defensive Hippowdon, and Aerodactyl. It shouldn't really seem of place. Just skip that whole intro and simply state that it's useful to cripple Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Aerodactyl, which can normally deal with it fairly well. Also, I don't see Aerodactyl taking a boosted Brave Bird all that well, j/s.</p>

<p>60 Speed EVs allow Talonflame to outspeed Jolly Excadrill. Anything else that Talonflame would want to hit with Flare Blitz is slower, so the rest of the EVs are put into bulk while the HP EVs allow Talonflame to switch in two times with Stealth Rock up. The Speed can be pumped up to outspeed even Heliolisk or Sucker Punch Mega Absol if those Pokemon are of concern. That's really elaborate to mention a simple EV spread. Change this to 'The EVs focus on Talonflame's strong points while enabling it to outrun Jolly.' Heliolisk honestly can't even take two Brave Birds or a Flare Blitz. It's not bulky at all. Mega Absol will also beat you either way, as Sucker Punch has more priority than Gale Wings Brave Bird (at least afaik). Sharp Beak is the preferred item as otherwise the recoil overwhelms Talonflame quickly, but Life Orb is better for those that need the extra power. Okay honestly Life Orb seems like garbage. This is a Pokemon that's weak to Stealth Rock with two recoil-incurring STAB attacks. Life Orb's power isn't /that/ relevant, while the longevity it gains by running Sharp Beak is much more significant. Rapid Spin or Defog support is a must. Starmie, Scizor, and Excadrill are the best Pokemon for this job. Talonflame also needs Pokemon able to deal with its major checks, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Rotom-W. Ferrothorn checks all of those Pokemon and helps Talonflame sweep by providing entry hazards. Ferrothorn is really out of place on the offensive teams you find Talonflame on. It'd be more prudent to mention something like Mega Venusaur, or Gogoat. Lastly, Bulk Up can be used instead of Swords Dance to make Talonflame harder to revenge kill. Use it with Roost and Leftovers. This doesn't tell me why to use Bulk Up. '[...] to make Talonflame harder to revenge kill.' is really vague and tells me nothing. What can't revenge kill it with Bulk Up? Why should I use Leftovers and not Sharp Beak? Honestly, I'm not convinced the extra passive recovery matters all that much with Roost, while such passive boosts make the power increase to Brave Bird all the more significant.</p>
Checks and Counters is missing STEALTH ROCK. This is a Pokemon 4x weak to that. Stealth Rock should be the first thing you mention. Random Stone Edges, Rock Slides too.

Alright, now... Overall, I think Roost shouldn't be passed up on the main set. It's just so crucial to Talonflame's survival that I think the limited utility of Will-O-Wisp doesn't make up for it. I'd sooner use Tailwind over SD if I was dedicated to that support, too.
 
I would also like to suggest an offensive/utility lead set I've been using on PS to great success. It outspeeds most common leads, shuts down hazard setters with Taunt, and has enough offensive presence to make a dent in Pokemon neutral or weak to its attacks.

Talonflame (M) @ Flying Gem/Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics/Brave Bird
- Tailwind/Flare Blitz
- Taunt
- Roost/Will-o-wisp/Toxic

An alternative spread of 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4Atk is workable if a bulkier set with staying power is desired.
Pros:
- Thanks to its blazing Speed stat and Gale Wings, Talonflame is almost guaranteed to go first.
- Has the potential to cripple with status before the battle even begins.
- Doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock in the lead position.
- Ideal against slow hazard-setters.
- Its mediocre bulk is a great boon when not carrying Sash to get off a free Tailwind before being KO'd.

Cons:
- Doesn't bode well with offensive Focus Sash leads.
- A mis-predict can lead to a dead bird with nothing to show for it
- Doesn't last long even without using its recoil STAB attacks.

Feel free to change this as you please, as there's probably a better move or two that can be substituted in that I haven't thought of yet.
 

Jukain

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Wait what.

This thing gets Acrobatics.

Can someone explain to me why the main set lacks Flying Gem Acrobatics then?
 
Because flying gem (or any elemental gem aside from normal) doesn't actually seem to be obtainable in X/Y as of right now.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
I heard you might be able to obtain by rock smash farming? [Only as a rumour; I don't own X/Y]
Taunt really must be worth mentioning, even if just in some sort of other options section.
 

alexwolf

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jukain said:
Azumarill after a BD isn't really impressive...OHKOing Volcarona and Blaziken with an SE move isn't either. Emphasize how Brave Bird is its means of revenge killing.
It is very impressive because Azumarill has priority +6 Aqua jet backed up by what is practical a 150 base Attack stat. Also, this sentence wasn't showing Talonflame's impressive damage output but its impressive revenge killing abilities.

jukain said:
This is very obvious. Mention specific targets in the metagame! Don't be so general.
Done.

juakain said:
SD is a boosting move. Of course it makes Talonflame more powerful. I mean, anyone who knows what SD does could tell you that. What's important is that the reader knows what SD is useful for. Does it make Talonflame a sweeper? Does it simply make it powerful enough to compete? Just scrap the rest of the sentence and tell me that.
I already mentioned that it OHKOes most offensive Pokemon not resistant to it at +2, which is a pretty clear statement. It means that at late-game, if you have weakened Flying-type resists you will be able to sweep, regardless if faster Pokemon are still alive on the opposing team.

jukain said:
This is choppy. Also, you don't /really/ state the ultimate usefulness of it. Its most useful because it enables slower teammates to shine. The revenge killing things in a pinch deal is cool...but that's Talonflame's job. You can mention a few things, but there really isn't a whole lot faster than it that Talonflame can't revenge kill.
Added some heavy hitter as partners for Tailwind Talonflame.

It shouldn't really seem of place. Just skip that whole intro and simply state that it's useful to cripple Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Aerodactyl, which can normally deal with it fairly well. Also, I don't see Aerodactyl taking a boosted Brave Bird all that well, j/s.
I am not going to argue about something that is clearly a matter of writing style and only takes 1/3 of a line in terms of space.

jukain said:
That's really elaborate to mention a simple EV spread. Change this to 'The EVs focus on Talonflame's strong points while enabling it to outrun Jolly.' Heliolisk honestly can't even take two Brave Birds or a Flare Blitz. It's not bulky at all. Mega Absol will also beat you either way, as Sucker Punch has more priority than Gale Wings Brave Bird (at least afaik).
Sucker Punch has the same priority as Gale Wings flying moves.

jukain said:
Okay honestly Life Orb seems like garbage. This is a Pokemon that's weak to Stealth Rock with two recoil-incurring STAB attacks. Life Orb's power isn't /that/ relevant, while the longevity it gains by running Sharp Beak is much more significant.
You are overstating its weakness to SR as keeping it off the field with the right support is not hard at all. Also, don't forget that we are talking about a Pokemon with great defensive typing that gets many opportunities to use Roost, mitigating the recoil from its STABs and LO. Of 'course Sharp Beak is the best option overall, but for people that want the extra revenge killing and sweeping power, it is a viable alternative.

jukain said:
Ferrothorn is really out of place on the offensive teams you find Talonflame on. It'd be more prudent to mention something like Mega Venusaur, or Gogoat.
Talonflame can be used on any kind of team that is not a full stall team.

jukain said:
This doesn't tell me why to use Bulk Up. '[...] to make Talonflame harder to revenge kill.' is really vague and tells me nothing. What can't revenge kill it with Bulk Up? Why should I use Leftovers and not Sharp Beak? Honestly, I'm not convinced the extra passive recovery matters all that much with Roost, while such passive boosts make the power increase to Brave Bird all the more significant.
Well in some cases you just have to be vague. Many people including me have used it and it is an ok option in practice.

jukain said:
Checks and Counters is missing STEALTH ROCK. This is a Pokemon 4x weak to that. Stealth Rock should be the first thing you mention. Random Stone Edges, Rock Slides too.
Added.

jukain said:
Alright, now... Overall, I think Roost shouldn't be passed up on the main set. It's just so crucial to Talonflame's survival that I think the limited utility of Will-O-Wisp doesn't make up for it. I'd sooner use Tailwind over SD if I was dedicated to that support, too.
WoW's utlity is not limited. It cripples 2/3 of its best switch-ins (Tyranitar and Hippowdon) and is a great move to spam early-game (as well as a great move to use against SD Aegislash who can play mind games with King's Shield but is fucked up by WoW).

I would also like to suggest an offensive/utility lead set I've been using on PS to great success. It outspeeds most common leads, shuts down hazard setters with Taunt, and has enough offensive presence to make a dent in Pokemon neutral or weak to its attacks.

Talonflame (M) @ Flying Gem/Focus Sash
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 4 HP / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics/Brave Bird
- Tailwind/Flare Blitz
- Taunt
- Roost/Will-o-wisp/Toxic

An alternative spread of 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4Atk is workable if a bulkier set with staying power is desired.
Pros:
- Thanks to its blazing Speed stat and Gale Wings, Talonflame is almost guaranteed to go first.
- Has the potential to cripple with status before the battle even begins.
- Doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock in the lead position.
- Ideal against slow hazard-setters.
- Its mediocre bulk is a great boon when not carrying Sash to get off a free Tailwind before being KO'd.

Cons:
- Doesn't bode well with offensive Focus Sash leads.
- A mis-predict can lead to a dead bird with nothing to show for it
- Doesn't last long even without using its recoil STAB attacks.

Feel free to change this as you please, as there's probably a better move or two that can be substituted in that I haven't thought of yet.
Flying Gem is not yet available and i don't see the merit of using Taunt on a Pokemon that either fucks up some hazard setters anyway (Steel-types) or gets owned by them (Tyranitar). Focus Sash in general is a very situational item and i don't see any merit in using Talonflame in the lead position.
 
Oh hey, so maybe I'm just looking at this wrong, but I don't really understand the merit to Wisp on the CB set. Yes, you're crippling Ttar and Rock-types of lesser significance (I suppose Hippo as well), but then you're locking a neutral priority status move .-. I can understand it's use on other sets, since it allows it a decent middle-ground method of wearing these Pokemon down, but on a CB set, I'm not sure what circumstances would validate not simply U-Turning on that predicted switch, then in turn going into the appropriate 'mon to threaten it. I'd 100% rather have Sleep Talk there, since Talonflame can then easily switch into nearly every sleep inducer not named Rock Tomb Breloom, but again, might be missing some crucial info :>
 

alexwolf

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Oh hey, so maybe I'm just looking at this wrong, but I don't really understand the merit to Wisp on the CB set. Yes, you're crippling Ttar and Rock-types of lesser significance (I suppose Hippo as well), but then you're locking a neutral priority status move .-. I can understand it's use on other sets, since it allows it a decent middle-ground method of wearing these Pokemon down, but on a CB set, I'm not sure what circumstances would validate not simply U-Turning on that predicted switch, then in turn going into the appropriate 'mon to threaten it. I'd 100% rather have Sleep Talk there, since Talonflame can then easily switch into nearly every sleep inducer not named Rock Tomb Breloom, but again, might be missing some crucial info :>
I thought about Sleep Talk as well, but with Sleep Talk you don't get priority Brave Bird, which is the whole point of using Talonflame to begin with. WoW is a very situational move true, but Talonflame doesn't really have many other decent options.
 
It's not like Talonflame is slow or anything. It's faster than all users of sleep moves. Sleep Talk makes infinitely more sense than Will-O-Wisp.
 
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alexwolf

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It's not like Talonflame is slow or anything. It's faster than all users of sleep moves. Sleep Talk makes infinitely more sense than Will-O-Wisp.
The point is that if you make Talonflame a sleep absorber you just lost your revenge killer, which is not worth it. Being an even greater revenge killer is CB Talonflame's basic pro over SD Talonflame.
 
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The point is that if you make Talonflame a sleep absorber you just lost your revenge killer, which is not worth it. Being an even greater revenge killer is Talonflame's basic pro over SD Talonflame.
I suppose that's true, but the way I see it is that you will most likely never use Will-O-Wisp because it's such a crap move to be locked into and you'd rather U-turn to keep momentum in your favour. For that reason, Sleep Talk could still be a bit more useful since you're not leaving one of your Pokemon useless for a few turns. And who knows, maybe your opponent doesn't really have anything that would require a priority Brave Bird? Given that the sleep mechanic changed as well, it's not like Talonflame's going to be sleeping forever. It will eventually wake up (guaranteed if you have a cleric), so if you predict it and use something not Sleep Talk, then you're good. It's probably easier said than done, but it's very possible.

Having Sleep Talk there is basically a "just in case," since you'll be rarely using anything outside of the first three moves. Just my thoughts, I guess it doesn't really matter.
 
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Zystral

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I assume by "CB set" you mean these two paragraphs:

<p>This set sacrifices the ability to change moves, set up, and use Roost in exchange for immediate power, which makes Talonflame a stellar revenge killer and a good clean-up Pokemon against offensive teams that will continually apply pressure , where fidning free turn is not an easy feat. Aside from the usual two STAB moves, U-turn wears down Talonflame's usual checks and deals respectable damage to one of its best counters: Tyranitar (42.07 - 49.5% to 252 HP Tyranitar). Will-O-Wisp and Tailwing may seem like a strange options for a Choice item set, but they have their merits: Will-O-Wisp permanently cripples Talonflame's usual switch-ins whereas Tailwind can help in desperate situations, or simply to give slower powerhouses in your team a two-turn boost when there are no other options. or gives to slow powerhouses the ability to destroy everything for two turns.</p>

<p>Because this set is even more prone to being knocked out by recoil damage and Stealth Rock, so this set it fits best on heavy offense teams where games last only for a few turns. Excadrill and and Mega Venusar are great teammates, as both have good defensive synergy with Talonflame;, while Excadrill also provides Rapid Spin support and Mega Venusaur deals with Rotom-W and Azumarill.</p>
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Talonflame @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- Natural Gift

I just found this in the gimmicks set section.. natural gift with salac berry does offer it up a base 80 physical fighting move.. Maybe list this move in some sort of OO section? Clearly it can't deal with hippodown, but it's a legitimate way to remove tyranitar from the game.
 

Zystral

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So you Natural Gift, into some Acrobatics... Seems like a really bad trade-off in terms of longevity for power. I'm pretty sure you'll miss out on a few crucial OHKOs and 2HKOs, and the longevity really doesn't mean much when you aren't using Roost.
 

alexwolf

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Talonflame @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird / Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- Natural Gift

I just found this in the gimmicks set section.. natural gift with salac berry does offer it up a base 80 physical fighting move.. Maybe list this move in some sort of OO section? Clearly it can't deal with hippodown, but it's a legitimate way to remove tyranitar from the game.
I would maybe mention this in OO but previews don't have this section.

This is finished.
 
alexwolf Your Choice Band set mentions U-turn, but you're currently using a set that consists of Brave Bird, Flare Blitz Swords Dance and either Tailwind or Will-o-Wisp.

<p>name: Choice Band<br />
move 1: Brave Bird<br />
move 2: Flare Blitz<br />
move 3: Swords Dance<br />
move 4: Tailwind / Will-O-Wisp<br />
ability: Gale Wings<br />
item: Choice Band<br />
evs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 60 Spe<br />
nature: Adamant</p>

This set sacrifices the ability to change moves, set up, and use Roost in exchange for immediate power, which makes Talonflame a stellar revenge killer and a good clean-up Pokemon against offensive teams that will continually apply pressure. Aside from the usual two STAB moves, U-turn wears down Talonflame's usual checks and deals respectable damage to one of its best counters: Tyranitar (42.07 - 49.5% to 252 HP Tyranitar). Will-O-Wisp and Tailwing may seem like a strange options for a Choice item set, but they have their merits: Will-O-Wisp permanently cripples Talonflame's usual switch-ins whereas Tailwind can help in desperate situations, or simply to give slower powerhouses in your team a two-turn boost to apply enormous offensive pressure.</p>
EDIT: Not sure if I should have PM'd this. I'm sorry...
 
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alexwolf

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alexwolf Your Choice Band set mentions U-turn, but you're currently using a set that consists of Brave Bird, Flare Blitz Swords Dance and either Tailwind or Will-o-Wisp.



EDIT: Not sure if I should have PM'd this. I'm sorry...
It was a cp mistake but now it's fixed, thx for noticing it.
 

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