[Gen6] CAP Viability Ranking Thread V2

I do agree that Zard X and Scizor have better setup opportunities and are less reliant on team support, however I think cawmodore hits the criteria of S rank very well. "The best of the best. Reserved for Pokemon who shape and define the CAP metagame and are a clear-cut above the rest. These Pokemon are typically very powerful offensive threats that are difficult to prepare for."

It's undeniable that Cawmodore has one of, if not the biggest effects on teambuilding. Checking cawmodore isn't very simple and you don't just slap on a Cawmodore check and say done. To reliably check Cawmodore you have to normally dedicate a fair bit of your teams resources to checking it as it's such a powerful pokemon once it sets up, because of this it's more common to go out of your way and start putting checks on your team for Cawmodore rather than for Mega sciz and Zard X. Not only this, I think checking Zard X and Mega Scizor are so much more easier than checking Cawmodore. Another thing about Cawmodore is using some of it's checks normally guarantee a kill for the Cawmodore user as most of it's checks are 2hko'd with the slightest amount of prior damage which is normally easily achieved with the omnipresent Stealth Rocks. An example of this is I can keep forcing out your Cyclohm by using my Colossoil making you lose momentum and get weakened so it's either you keep switching or I set up and kill something that game and you send in your Cyclohm after the kill to kill me. Not sure if I explained what I wanted to well but lol.

If I did, I think Cawmodore is more than eligible for S Rank.
While it's not exactly easy to counter Cawmodore, checking it is a lot easier than most think it is. Its checks are pretty omnipresent and have a wide range of uses; Cyclohm, of course, is rather common, Talonflame can revenge kill easily, and choice-scarf Waters and Fires like Mollux, Volkraken, Keldeo, and Heatran are also widely used as well and have a ton of utility outside of this role. Cawmodore is the main reason you use these, but Cawmodore has so little to actually hurt its checks, relying entirely on its teammates to wear them down. Cawmodore is dead weight until these checks are gone, because it's pitifully weak until it can set up, and all of these threats prevent it from setting up at all. Not to mention that if Cawmodore takes even one attack, like a Knock Off from Colossoil, or an Aura Sphere from Tomohawk, then Cawmodore is basically worthless, so you have to play as if you're down an entire Pokemon until Cawmodore can safely get in AND sweep past its checks.

Yes, Cawmodore warps teambuilding, but not only do current S-ranks Tomohawk and Aurumoth do that even more, but Cawmodore's checks and counters are common, useful, and completely hard-stops to any Cawmodore sweep. I repeat what I said above here:

To be an S rank, you need to be the best of the best. The best in the CAP meta can provide support, offense, defense, and even sweeping, all in the same package. Cawmodore has no defensive and supportive qualities, and in fact /requires/ tons of team support to function at the same level as an Aurumoth, or a Clefable.

While it's much easier to stop a Mega Scizor (It's not easy to stop Char-X, at all), Mega Scizor and Char-X also provide a large defensive boost to the team in addition to a sweeper, and Scizor can also provide very easy pivoting as well.
 
Hello,

I agree with almost everything in this actual VR, but i would like to see some other Pokémon:

- Gastrodon is able to counter Naviathan, Plasmanta, Mollux (be care of Trick, you probably won't use Sticky Hold over Storm Drain), Krilowatt and Volkraken. He can also help against Crucibelle without Wood Hammer, Stratagem without Energy Ball/Giga Drain, Keldeo, Thundurus, Colossoil (only against the AV set), Cyclohm, Rotom-W, Tyranitar and rain team. I'd put him B/B+ rank.

- Beedrill-Mega faces competition with Crucibelle-Mega and Syclant, but he's still a dangerous Sweeper in Volturn team especially. He can also outspeed Mega-Altaria full Spe after a Dragon Dance. B-/B rank looks good.

- Zygarde, despite the omnipresent fairies and the addition of Haze Tomohawk and Arghonaut, helps against Mega-Crucibelle, Plasmanta without HP Ice, Stratagem and Mollux and still performs as a good late game. I'd put him C/B- rank.

I hope that my English isn't too bad for you. If it is, I apologise.
 
Uuuuggghhh you're using banded Talon as an argument. That set is absolute shit, don't even use it as an example because nobody seriously uses it.

I cannot take that nomination seriously when it's entirely based on a set that was good at the very beginning of early X/Y and absolutely nowhere else. Besides, how in the hell can you use Jirachi and Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor as good answers to Talon when they get OHKO'ed by the very set you're trying to demote it for? Look at all these calcs.

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 196-232 (67.3 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Altaria: 98-116 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Needs to be healthy to survive this after stealth rocks)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Needs to be healthy to survive this)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 98-116 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Needs to be healthy to survive this)
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Crucibelle: 135-159 (38.1 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Notice a trend here?)

Please use the Swords Dance, Bulk Up, and Stallbreaker sets next time.
 

Drapionswing

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is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Breloom: B+ > B/B-

Breloom faces a lot of struggles in cap with tomohawk walling both stabs, hazing cyclohm taking for days, pyroak tanking for days etc. and then you have offensive threats to it such as talon, clant(lives mach), aurumoth, cawm necturna. It relies heavily on spore to even pull off a sweep. I think using this mon you REALLY have to go out of your way to build with it. CAP's meta really just kills it and makes it unattractive to use.

Gliscor: A- > A

I've been dabbling with gliscor as of late and I really don't think that this mon is A-. Gliscors ability to really hammer stall is greatly appreciated in this meta for one thing as stall could be considered as one of the best playstyles. The SD breaker set is really nice but struggled with tomohawk at first so what I did was I changed gliscor to Toxic > Roost and it began to REALLY pressure a lot of teams as it has the ability to set up on opposing walls easier as he wares them out as he sets up. Gliscor is of course not the sweeper but the defensive breaker and due to the defensive nature in CAP this excelled quite well for me. Definitely deserving of A rank due to it's sheer power and ability to just force switches into something that really doesn't like to be toxiced.

Don't Shoot!

Zapdos: B > B+

I've been looking at zapdos a lot, I think it's really good in our meta for a bunch of reasons. It walls tomohawks coverage perfectly, and also threatens it out. Offensively it can threaten a lot of mons in the tier water types and flying types primarily. You can run a -speed nature to actually wall colossoil (IF NEEDED) and slowly kill it with your attacks. Zapdos is a very nice defogger, defogging on a GREAT amount of mons due to the threat of tbolt, toxic, twave etc. The trait bringing it down is it's flying typing which prevents it from ever being a A rank mon. Zapdos also fits well on stall with hp ice and it allows it to break wallbreakers like gliscor or rockers like garchomp. Definitely needs a raise in my opinion.
 
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SHSP

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A small nom (that probably cements me as "that CAP suicune guy"): Suicune from C to B-/B.
I've done a lot of play with Suicune in this meta after hearing so much about it being possibly bumped up in the regular OU VR, and I've had a lot of success with it against people who actually know how to play the game (i.e. Not low ladder). Now, Suicune isn't as good as it is in OU based mainly on the existance of mons that hard wall it in Mollux and Plasmanta, as well as Naviathan which has a lot more flexibility (DD as well as CM sets, steel typing). However, Suicune's two real variations of sets- both run CM/Scald/Rest with either Sleep Talk or Roar- give it a niche over Navi. The roar set acts as a phaser and usually wins set up wars, as well as benefiting from hazards greatly, which Navi can't do, and it also can set up on a lot more, like Colo, Lando-T and Keldeo. What keeps it under Navi in my eyes is versatility, and the fact mono-water coverage is not that good, considering it can't touch Mollux and Plasmanta, and some of it's best hope vs stuff like Cyclohm and Necturna (and bulky mons that handle water attacks well in general) is scald burns unless it's able to set up quite a bit.
 
Lopunny needs to go to A. It's really good right now, Toxic variants mess up its best answers like Tomohawk and Garchomp, Return + High Jump Kick are perfect coverage, its Speed and Attack let it blaze through offensive teams with relative ease. It's really undervalued in this thread/meta and it messes up tons of stuff with three attacks + fourth move that can be anything from toxic, baton pass, ice punch, quick attack, power up punch, substitute, like holy hell it's highly customizable and very diverse despite having 1 set.

Thoughts on other nominations:

Breloom can be B rank, but man Spore is so freaking good that its best counters are dangerous switch ins to Breloom. B- is absurd.

Gliscor is ok but Landorus is so much better in that slot most of the time. A rank kinda oversells what Gliscor does, considering how much competition it has for a ground type in this meta. Gliscor is one of the lesser ground types and I find it to be about as useful as Fidgit.

Zapdos is not a good Pokemon in this metagame and one of the worst defoggers in the tier. Why in the world would you use this over Tomohawk if you wanted hazards gone? Tomohawk threatens so much more in the meta and is so much better at it by virtue of Rapid Spin, Prankster, high power, and it can set up its own rocks that aren't at risk of being defogged away. Defog is not what you use Zapdos for.

What you do use zapdos for is for a bulky toxic and paralysis spreading Pokemon. It's okay at it but it's a shaky blanket check to physical attackers. B is alright as it is.
 
Mega Crucibelle to S

I've been playing Mega Cancerbelle a lot lately and it really makes the rest of my team look like a joke. It hits the the majority of the tier like an absolute truck. Head Smash is so ridiculously powerful and it has Wood Hammer for Ground and Water types and Gunk Shot for Clefable. It's one of the fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and it hits really fucking hard too. It even has good Special Bulk. It's even a good Special Tank. If all of those qualities combined aren't S then I don't know what is. Really, the only decent check is Cawdomore. PLEASE RAISE, definetely meta defining and one of the very best
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Mega Crucibelle to S

I've been playing Mega Cancerbelle a lot lately and it really makes the rest of my team look like a joke. It hits the the majority of the tier like an absolute truck. Head Smash is so ridiculously powerful and it has Wood Hammer for Ground and Water types and Gunk Shot for Clefable. It's one of the fastest Pokemon in the metagame, and it hits really fucking hard too. It even has good Special Bulk. It's even a good Special Tank. If all of those qualities combined aren't S then I don't know what is. Really, the only decent check is Cawdomore. PLEASE RAISE, definetely meta defining and one of the very best
Mega Crucibelle isn't THAT good of a special tank specially since its weak to many specially offensive types. It also has more checks than just Cawmadore. Just to name a few Scizor, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Landorus, Syclant, Stratagem, Alakazam, Kitsunoh and the list just goes on and on. You are really overexaggerating how good it is because its coverage hits everything naturally (cept Kitsunoh) and I know it is definitely meta defining but it isn't worthy of S
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
I know this thread hasn't been the most active, but I wanted to nominate Zoroark for C/D tier. I think it has a unique niche within the CAP metagame due to its illusion ability. Since Aurumoth also has this ability, having both of them on the same team especially when paired with mons that would beat them, can really create mindgames and allow Aurumoth or other setup sweepers to get their way within the game. However due to Zoroark's unique movepool it can't replicate much else in the metagame so it does have a lot of notable flaws.
 
Zoroark has no niche because its not effective at using illusion whatsoever. The double illusion gimmick does not work, because the entire team has to revolve around these two Pokemon, and supporting them, instead of Aurumoth just supporting itself most of the time. Zoroark uses up a moveslot that would be better off using Colossoil to give hazards advantage, or Bisharp as a wincon.

Also, if zoroark even had a niche on that team type, it would still not be ranked simply because it is so team specific that it would open the floodgates for 50 better pokemon to be ranked, that still shouldn't be.
 

BP

Beers and Steers
is a Contributor to Smogon
Okay Exclaimer before you completely shit on my Proposal just here me out...


Cawmodore A+ -----> A-
Cawmodore is sitting at an A+ which in my Opinion is absolutely ridiculous. When someone decides to put Cawmodore on their team they build around him they don't just throw him on there hoping for the sweep of a lifetime; not to mention the fact that barely anyone really uses him unless he's on a Caps lock team. It is the most OVER PREPARED and UNDER PLAYED Cap there is. Sure it sweeps most things just like the A rating suggests which is why it doesn't quite deserve to stoop down to B but he is close. For these reasons it must be moved down A-
 
I think A- is a bit of a stretch, and while I don't agree it should drop at all, lets go with an argument for flat A rank and I'll run through some reasons why it would drop, but then some reasons why it should not.

To drop:

  • Cawmodore has very little actual presence until late game when it can sweep.
  • Cawmodore is hard walled by Cyclohm, which is massively popular.
  • Many, many choice scarf Pokemon are Fires or Waters, and they will be used regardless of Cawmodore existing because they have wide applications and the ability to revenge a lot a Pokemon.
  • One dimensional. Though this point doesn't need much when that one set wins games very consistently.

These are really solid, though...

To stay A+:

  • Of all the wincons, Cawmodore is one of the most brutally effective. Once Cawmodore belly drums on something like Clefable or Jirachi, the opponent needs to have a surprise in the back, otherwise, it's good game. Assuming the Cawmodore player set up at the right time, aka when Cyclohm + Scarf Volkraken are gone or heavily weakened. While Cawmodore doesn't set up on much, it doesn't /need/ to. It's a one turn-setup team-dismantling powerhouse.
  • Cawmodore can be supported easily, and fits well into teams since most teams already prepare for everything that Cawmodore is weak to.
  • Cawmodore has a very significant effect on the metagame, and is pretty much the only reason HazeReflect Hawk is a thing. Cawmodore is also one of those threats that if your team doesn't answer well, needs to be entirely re-built to fit an answer to it. And not just a soft check either, you need solid answers to this thing or you will lose against it pretty consistently.
  • Aurumoth + Cawmodore is so so dumb
I wouldn't be against it going to A since it is a bit overprepared and the metagame isn't as kind to it. However, I would like the input of some other members before any change is made regarding its ranking.

Btw raise suicune to B, the thing is much better than C ranks
 

cbrevan

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For Cawmodore to drop there needs to be more of an argument in favor of it dropping than "the metagame is overprepared for it". The metagame has always been well prepared for Cawmodore because of the polarizing nature of its matchups, i.e you either have the correct answer or you lose, and Cawmodore has remained an effective win condition despite this. If you think the metagame has shifted so much that it's now a liability to run Cawmodore than state the reasons why and what has changed in comparison to before. If the matchup is still the same, if the matchup is still do you have an answer or not, than Cawmodore should stay in A+ because we have already decided that its an A+ Pokemon in a metagame that prepares for it. Additionally, Cawmodore needing a team built around it is not a reason as to why it should drop. Cawmodore is a win condition, which by default requires teams to build around it to be effective. The only win condition that breaks that rule is Aurumoth, which can work past a large majority of its checks just through it's set variation and is thus in S. Other win conditions in A+, such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Scizor, also need similiar levels of team support to be effective, which is another reason as to why that line of reasoning is invalid. You can say that Cawmodore requires more team support because of how well prepared teams can be for it, but the case can also be made that its an easy Pokemon to support because of how clear cut its answers are and how much easier it is to set out to handle them because of it.

Overall if you're going to nominate something to rise, drop, or be added you need to provide actual reasoning and evidence as to why you think so beyond "this pokemon is OVER PREPARED and UNDER PLAYED". These reasons also need to be in the context of what changed between now and before when it was whatever rank it was. Simply stating a well known limitation of the Pokemon is not enough. You need to explain why this limitation is now enough for it to drop in comparison to now.
 

Drapionswing

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I think Cawmodore should stay in A+

Cawmodore has a very intense presence in the cap metagame, it warps teambuilding an insane extent and any team NOT capable of taking it on needs to be rebuilt. Cawmodore is a very effective lategame sweeper as it can break through teams after 1 turn and of course after the checks are gone. The problem with cawm is that there is no chance of sweeping at all if it's checks are still alive as they are such competent checks until weakened greatly. Although cawm shoots itself in the foot due to it over centralising it's checks, it still has so much presence and potential, so much so that it deserves to be in A+. I think A- is actually a horrible choice and A is also an insult to Cawmodore's power in battle and also whilst teambuilding.
 
The simple fact that if you don't put a check to Cawmodore on your team you automatically lose tells you just how good of a sweeper he is. Yes, he's literally the most one dimensional pokemon in the game, but he does his job better than any other pokemon in the tier. Now, I never really supported the jump to A+ a while back, but people agreed to move him up. Until something comes up that makes Caw 'worse' or less usable, he should stay at A+ where the community decided he should be.
 
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QueenOfLuvdiscs

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Cawmodore is broken as fuck and will be always be an overcentralising piece of shit. It's checks are very easy to prepare for because they're either slow as hell like Cyclohm and Quagsire (Unaware Clef isn't good) or either choice locked because caw has an absurd amount of speed. You literally just need to run a balance team with it as your set up sweeper and you're good to go.

Cawmodore + colo + slowking + 3 other pokemon (some shit to tie them together) and you're good to go.

Still think it should be banned, but that's not allowed
 

Drapionswing

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Slowking Unranked --> B

Slowking is a very good assault vest pivot. Due to regenerator and it's water typing, slowking is a really good check to numerous threats. Volkraken, volcanion, stratagem, lati's and numerous other special attackers. Slowkings ability to run dragon tail prevents mons like slowbro, naviathan and sweepers in general from setting up on you. Regenerators healing capability allows slowking to excel at being a bulky pivot allowing for nice utility on volt turn. It also has the ability to prevent mollux and plasmanta from stopping it entirely which is really nice for a water type in this meta. But in short, it's a nice offensive answer to a lot of special attackers.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-437486114
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/cap-437515423
 
I like the suggestion, but Typing, Stats and Movepool wise, Slowbro outclasses king. a Physically Defensive set makes much better use of its bulk. The only thing that Slowking can do which slowbro can't is beat tomohawk easier.

Oh and maybe win CM wars

Instead, maybe B- to C+ rank would suit king better.
 
Psychic types in general (except godmoth), are pretty meh in cap. Slowking needs to run some defense or it just dies to standard knock off users (like colossoil...). If we're going to put it on the list we should start conservatively at something like C+ because 1) I've never seen anyone use it well, or at all for that matter, and 2) I think it sucks. If you run assault vest, then you can't slack off and there's not much point in running him over tornadus/tangrowth/amoonguss. Yes, he can take special attacks, but its extremely easy to play around with hard switches, momentum ,etc; and if you run calm mind its inferior to slowbro/naviathan. All around slowking is a sub-optimal mon in CAP, but you can debate this because its very uncommon.
 

Drapionswing

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Psychic types in general (except godmoth), are pretty meh in cap. Slowking needs to run some defense or it just dies to standard knock off users (like colossoil...). If we're going to put it on the list we should start conservatively at something like C+ because 1) I've never seen anyone use it well, or at all for that matter, and 2) I think it sucks. If you run assault vest, then you can't slack off and there's not much point in running him over tornadus/tangrowth/amoonguss. Yes, he can take special attacks, but its extremely easy to play around with hard switches, momentum ,etc; and if you run calm mind its inferior to slowbro/naviathan. All around slowking is a sub-optimal mon in CAP, but you can debate this because its very uncommon.
I think C+ is a bit too low for Slowking, being able to beat keldeo safely and comfortably is a pretty nice thing to have under your belt. On the av set I never really have missed slack off at any point. And I don't think tang and amoonguss really outclass slowking as a regen user as I feel like slowking has a lot more offensive presence through it's pretty good movepool and due to it's ability to phase things out giving it a form of utility. However their are downsides to slowking like you said, it struggles to compete with bro and gets fucked pretty hard by knock off, and dark types in general. I think if we were to be conservative about placing slowking, B- would be a good start.
 
Slowking is just a slightly different variant of Slowbro. Does that mean it's outclassed?

No.

It has a lot of the same qualities that Slowbro has: identical coverage, can tackle a lot of the same threats via typing, heals very easily via Slack Off and Regenerator, and are good pivots. The difference is that Slowking has Nasty Plot, one or two other unique moves, and the ability to take on special attacks easily instead of physical attackers. Stuff like Diancie, Clefable, and Nidoking are examples of things Slowking deals with that Slowbro cannot handle as easily.

Slowking needs to go to B rank because it's still extremely viable, and a threat, the only reason it's not as high as Slowbro is because Slowbro is physically defensive, which has higher value in the metagame.
 
Slowking is just a slightly different variant of Slowbro. Does that mean it's outclassed?

No.

It has a lot of the same qualities that Slowbro has: identical coverage, can tackle a lot of the same threats via typing, heals very easily via Slack Off and Regenerator, and are good pivots. The difference is that Slowking has Nasty Plot, one or two other unique moves, and the ability to take on special attacks easily instead of physical attackers. Stuff like Diancie, Clefable, and Nidoking are examples of things Slowking deals with that Slowbro cannot handle as easily.

Slowking needs to go to B rank because it's still extremely viable, and a threat, the only reason it's not as high as Slowbro is because Slowbro is physically defensive, which has higher value in the metagame.
It is true that Slowking can take on key threats like Clefable and Diancie but that's still quite hard. To beat CM Clefable, you have to run CM Slowking which isn't the best set to run. Whilst Diancie can predict the switch and click Diamond Storm to deal a lot of damage. Slowking is just so much more situational than it's Physically Defensive brother.

Slowking can win Calm Mind wars and take care of a couple more threats, it can run a more offensive set which can help as a glue in Bulky Offense but, at the end of the day, Slowbro achieves more. It walls Pokemon with its defence, it takes more hits with Calm Minds set up and fits better in the current metagame.

I understand that the stat and small move pool changes can give different results and separate them as Pokemon, but I find Slowking performs as a solid B-/C rank Pokemon

EDIT: Sorted my bro's from my king's
 
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Drapionswing

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Idk, the same wahy slowbro walls physical mons slowking walls special mons. And I feel like getting good special water resist can be hard through threat of hp or coverage. Slowking is able to handle the mons which tear up bulky offensive teams (which are pretty good rn imo), mons like volcanion, volkraken, aforementioned CM sweepers and Zam. Filling a nice glue which BO teams appreciate. As well as this it beats lo tomo which is pretty huge!
 
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