I should clarify a few things with this post. First, the Viability Rankings are extremely flexible to change right now as new Pokemon are used and new concepts are tossed into the meta. The "trial" run of the VR was to simply set-up a good base of Pokemon that worked in this tier from usage by the Council and from what we have seen used. Obviously the VR would not be completely finished within the first two weeks of a metagame existing, that would simply be absurd. You also have to take in mind that Viability Rankings are mostly based off of actually in game performance with a good chunk of bias. That is the basic concept behind running a VR. I would also like to disagree on your notions with Smeargle and Pikachu. Smeargle is most certainly an A+/S ranked threat in this metagame, with A+ being the lowest realistic place to put it, especially in a meta without access to Mega Sableye. Pikachu is definitely at minimum an A- threat with access to Light Ball, Fake Out, ESpeed, and decent coverage options. Also, with regards to the VR, it can change a lot during and after suspect tests, which is understandable. The metagame is changing and adapting so viability does as well. I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.OKAY, I need to bust down some major misconceptions surrounding this metagame. First, and most importantly, the Viability Rankings are no where even close to complete. You are all missing a ton of threats in there, some of which are even better than Mega-Sableye... but more on that later. It needs to be at last three times larger than it already is to serve an unbiased purpose. It's arguably even more than Mix and Mega needs. And that's saying something.
Right now, Smeargle and Pikachu are being talked about for S-Rank. That's kind of madness of something so frail. This is not a meta where the frail survive. This... is a meta of staying power. (Both of them are good, but they both die to a breeze, which even a fully defensive team can provide.
Now, since I'm Pro-Mega Sableye Ban, I feel I need to refute this little bit. Saying that there is at least one answer on different teams for a Pokemon really doesn't help your argument. If anything you're basically stating why Mega Sableye is so dangerous and is inherently ban-worthy. Also, hypothesizing that two random Pokemon, including an Uber, could potentially beat said "dangerous" Pokemon is really just an assumption, at best. In reality, Lugia loses to Mega Sableye mainly because it can't really do anything to it while most any Mega Sableye set can have its way with Lugia and stall it. Zygarde is a tad random, but most likely loses to Mega Sableye nonetheless as Will-O-Wisp + Foul Play straight-up beats it. Crocune is a given, but so is switching out with Mega Sableye. PDon actually loses to Mega Sableye, unless it's the defensive Rest set. In fact SD PDon pretty much gets bodied by Mega Sableye if it tries to set-up on it. Foul Play covers SD and general damage while the Toxic set outright beats it and even if PDon lives and SDs, the opponent can just switch into their Unaware mon or Set-Up mon check/counter. Umbreon is a tad random. It beats Mega Sableye if and only if the Mega Sableye tries to status the Umbreon or gets baited. Umbreon can't do anything on its own. Diancie as a Pokemon beats Mega Sableye if it doesn't run Metal Burst, but then again, it's a Diancie, just don't stay in.Mega-Sableye: Unban
On the surface, this looks impenetrable. And to some forms of offense, it is. But well-constructed Stall and Balance have at least one answer to this. The team above, for example, has Clefable, and I'm sure Lugia and Zygarde can take it on, too. I talked about Suicune before, and how it stalls this thing out easily, but there's quite a list for things that beat this. Primal Groudon is a big one, being able to no sell Will-O Wisp, and setting up in Sableye's face without fear. Rest mons in general can make a mockery of Mega Sableye, especially Umbreon and Diancie. One more point I want to make before closing this one out. Just because I'm voting to unban this... doesn't mean I want you all to use this. There can be better options in the HP slot, and with over 300 potential choices, there might just be a better one.
Of course assuming that the VR Rankings would be finished in two weeks is quite dumb, to say the least. What I'm saying is that they should be expanded regularly to account for the new threats that come up, which is a ton of mons. More than are up there currently. I even suggested two earlier... nothing. (That's part of being busy , so I don't blame them at all)I should clarify a few things with this post. First, the Viability Rankings are extremely flexible to change right now as new Pokemon are used and new concepts are tossed into the meta. The "trial" run of the VR was to simply set-up a good base of Pokemon that worked in this tier from usage by the Council and from what we have seen used. Obviously the VR would not be completely finished within the first two weeks of a metagame existing, that would simply be absurd. You also have to take in mind that Viability Rankings are mostly based off of actually in game performance with a good chunk of bias. That is the basic concept behind running a VR. I would also like to disagree on your notions with Smeargle and Pikachu. Smeargle is most certainly an A+/S ranked threat in this metagame, with A+ being the lowest realistic place to put it, especially in a meta without access to Mega Sableye. Pikachu is definitely at minimum an A- threat with access to Light Ball, Fake Out, ESpeed, and decent coverage options. Also, with regards to the VR, it can change a lot during and after suspect tests, which is understandable. The metagame is changing and adapting so viability does as well. I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.
"This is not a meta where the frail survive."
Sorry if I come off as rude, but I laughed when I read this. One of the best uber options is Deoxys-Attack, which is the epitome of a glass cannon, and priority + multi-priority Pokemon are extremely proficient in this metagame especially when paired with an Uber like Deoxys-Attack, i.e. Smeargle, Pikachu, Linoone, Kecleon, etc. The point of running these types of Pokemon is to dismantle fully defensive teams, so saying they are weak and can die to a lot of things makes them not very good is a little ridiculous.
I'm not arguing Mega-Sableye to be unbanned because it will make handling Deoxys-A teams easier. (quite the contrary, actually... Many of my issues with offense can be traced back to Boomburst Swellow, which could be solved with a simple Ice Shard...) I'm arguing it because I feel that enough things can handle Mega Sableye so that it's not actually broken. Groudon-Primal can also Lava Plume it, and try to burn Sableye. (maybe setting up in its face is too much work for Groudon's move slots...)Now, since I'm Pro-Mega Sableye Ban, I feel I need to refute this little bit. Saying that there is at least one answer on different teams for a Pokemon really doesn't help your argument. If anything you're basically stating why Mega Sableye is so dangerous and is inherently ban-worthy. Also, hypothesizing that two random Pokemon, including an Uber, could potentially beat said "dangerous" Pokemon is really just an assumption, at best. In reality, Lugia loses to Mega Sableye mainly because it can't really do anything to it while most any Mega Sableye set can have its way with Lugia and stall it. Zygarde is a tad random, but most likely loses to Mega Sableye nonetheless as Will-O-Wisp + Foul Play straight-up beats it. Crocune is a given, but so is switching out with Mega Sableye. PDon actually loses to Mega Sableye, unless it's the defensive Rest set. In fact SD PDon pretty much gets bodied by Mega Sableye if it tries to set-up on it. Foul Play covers SD and general damage while the Toxic set outright beats it and even if PDon lives and SDs, the opponent can just switch into their Unaware mon or Set-Up mon check/counter. Umbreon is a tad random. It beats Mega Sableye if and only if the Mega Sableye tries to status the Umbreon or gets baited. Umbreon can't do anything on its own. Diancie as a Pokemon beats Mega Sableye if it doesn't run Metal Burst, but then again, it's a Diancie, just don't stay in.
"Just because I'm voting to unban this...doesn't mean I want you all to use this."
This is an issue that has come up multiple times throughout any and every tier in Pokemon, including this thread, in Other Metas chat, and PMs. I just want to make this as perfectly clear as possible:
Broken Pokemon checking/countering/anything other Pokemon that could potentially become broken is not a reason for the original to not be banned.
I.e. "If Mega Sableye is banned then Deoxys-Attack will be broken, so we can't ban Mega Sableye." So that you are aware, just because something that is broken beats something else that is really good and potentially broken doesn't mean that the original Pokemon is not broken. If Deoxys-Attack and other Pokemon have the potential to be broken if Mega Sableye is banned, then they will be suspected accordingly. That is how metagames develop and change.
Thanks, that's what I like to hear. This suspect has really made it clear that building a team is harder than it formally was, which is why we're getting such a variety of mons now.The VR hasn't been updated purely because we're in the middle of a suspect, and so things might change after the votes. I'll update it on Sunday. There is a lot of changes that will be made!
Let's go ahead and get Nidoqueen on the vr now :3`
We're currently working on the Revamp and hopefully it won't take too long to come out. In the mean time, feel free to post VR suggestions, things you've seen on ladder, anything you've been trying out, etc.I will say that once this suspect is over, there will be a massive revamp to the VR, depending on what is and isn't banned.
Once TI implements the coding, then it will be freed. Until then, just be patient.how long until talonflame is unbanned? it still says he is unavailable.
Chill oml. Right, so, I posted those as discussion topics, not for you to get pissed at me for even suggesting a possible rank for a Pokemon, after I said that this was simply for VR discussion purposes. Anyways, Crobat serves as a check/counter to Serperior, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, insert more grass types, Clefable, Stall Pokemon, etc. It's options are pretty decent, and following what my post was, it was regarding the meta while Talonflame was still banned and A- was a pretty reasonable rank for how the meta was during the suspect. Now I'd be fine with having at B, but definitely not lower. Ohh, and:does crobat really deserve A rank for checking a single pokemon? i dont know what else that crobat does in this meta, its not a particularly great defogger, it isnt an amazing wall, offensively it is bad and its speed far less valuable than it looks- for instance better outsped by a very common 150 speed mega heracross (which is the main thing i would want it to check) and common espeed users. its two strengths are as a stallbreaker and serperior check, but i havent really seen it excel at being a stallbreaker (altho feel free to prove me wrong anyone) because poison is not a good typing when it comes to being specially defensive, and it doesnt make up for it with base stats or anything. if it wants to run black sludge then it cant run acrobatics and has to start using brave bird, which makes it much harder to stay healthy to check the only pokemon it deserves to be on a team to cover. there are serperior counters and hard checks in the game that can be chosen over crobat that are more effective, for instance azumarill. crobat will not ohko serperior with unboosted attacks on a defensive set, and is crippled by glare and leech seed. tflame should be unbanned now also, so this should definitely be dropped down to C maximum imo.
politoed is something which imo is deadly. rain teams are super strong and have a bunch of different options. ludicolo and other common rain sweepers are more than capable of shitting over the tier and rain teams pose an enormous problem to regular defensive pokemon such as clefable, quagsire, skarmory, shuckle, mega diancie, and all of the rock types that the overall very physically defensive meta has ushered in thanks to their normal and bird resists. the benefit of politoed though is that it fits onto things like deoxys teams (can run a 150 speed specs set) and doesnt take up your god slot unlike kyogre. while it obviously hates primal groudon, it is the matriarch of rain teams and i think it deserves to be higher
I don't see anyone getting pissed off at anyone. Why are you getting so defensive? You obviously feel really strongly about Crobat as his critique of Crobat was well-mannered and reasonable. You can't make a post that big and not expect disagreement.Chill oml. Right, so, I posted those as discussion topics, not for you to get pissed at me for even suggesting a possible rank for a Pokemon, after I said that this was simply for VR discussion purposes.
You don't need to boost Manaphy any higher, as that would be overkill. Speed helps it outspeed threats in a meta with huge speed tiers and hp helps the RD+Rest set survive longerreadytolose said:Manaphy: I'm not sure why increased Special Attack is not being mentioned. It seems pretty intuitive to me.