Kartana Discussion

Theorymon

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This is one of the Pokemon I'm most hyped for in Battle Spot Singles, this thing sounds like a very, very dangerous late game sweeper!

Something I haven't seen mention of: I think Kartana might be one of the best users of Z-moves, since its attacks are fairly low base power. For example, with Bloom Doom coming from Leaf Blade, Kartana straight up OHKOs Garchomp and Mega Kangaskhan, which is pretty impressive considering their bulk! If you use Swords Dance and Steelium Z, a +2 Corkscrew Crash actually does 90% minimum to Mega Charizard X as well!

I would also like to bring up Grassy Terrain as well. Using Kartana and Tapu Bulu together in a 3v3 metagame is pretty risky for the Fire-type weakness, but it might pay off: Life Orb Leaf Blade under this ALSO OHKOs Garchomp and Mega Kangaskhan. As you would imagine, if you use Grassium Z instead, Bloom Doom under Grassy Terrain is an insane nuke (if that works).

That being said, I don't think Kartana is gonna be totally unstoppable in Battle Spot Singles either. The mega boost means that Salamence is probably going to be a fairly reliable revenge killer by Mega Evolving before it gets slammed by Corkscrew Crash (the first turn Intimidate helps too), and faster special stuff like Mega Gengar and Scarf Tapu Lele (Psychic actually has a good shot of OHKOing under the right Terrain lol). Random sash Pokemon like Garchomp with a Fire-type attack are also gonna be big problems, hence why I would use this late game and consider Stealth Rock support.
 
Defensive Arcanine is getting much better in BSS. +1 LO Return is Kartana's best option and it's a 3HKO. It can 2HKO with rocks but of course every fire move Arcanine has is an OHKO, including ember. It also matches up pretty decently against Pheromosa which can only reliably 3HKO with HJK and is similarly OHKO'd by any fire move. Long live the intimidating doggo of many morning suns.
 
Defensive Arcanine is getting much better in BSS. +1 LO Return is Kartana's best option and it's a 3HKO. It can 2HKO with rocks but of course every fire move Arcanine has is an OHKO, including ember. It also matches up pretty decently against Pheromosa which can only reliably 3HKO with HJK and is similarly OHKO'd by any fire move. Long live the intimidating doggo of many morning suns.
Let's not forget Incineroar, who can fullfill Arcanine's role almost better, sans Extreme Speed or Morning Sun.
 

Theorymon

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Let's not forget Incineroar, who can fullfill Arcanine's role almost better, sans Extreme Speed or Morning Sun.
Incineroar is weak to Sacred Sword and lacks recovery however, plus Intimidate Litten may not be available for a while.

Arcanine has been pretty rare in battle spot singles in the past, but it does sound like a good check to Kartana. Might make it better in bsd and vgc too.
 
Incineroar is weak to Sacred Sword and lacks recovery however, plus Intimidate Litten may not be available for a while.

Arcanine has been pretty rare in battle spot singles in the past, but it does sound like a good check to Kartana. Might make it better in bsd and vgc too.
My bad, I forgot that Mr Paper McEdgelord learns absolutely eveything that cuts...
 

Pikachu315111

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Well, they do say the worst pain is a paper cut, though I think this is going a bit far. Also I guess it never heard about paper thin defenses (though knows paper burns at fahrenheit 451). And its as fast as a piece of paper in the wind.

*Dodges a stack of printing paper* Okay, I'll stop with the paper jokes. But still this thing is a bit scary even if it does fold to a special attacker *is hit with a newspaper*.

STAB is pretty much Leaf Blade and Smart Strike (why do we not have a Steel-type Slash yet? The name writes itself: Steel/Razor Blade!). Also gets Sacred Sword, Aerial Ace, Night Slash, X-Scissor, Psycho Cut, and Brick Break (also Guillotine). Utilities are Defog, Synthesis, Laser Focus, and Swords Dance.

Geez, this thing gets more cutting moves than the Honedge family (though most people use it as a Special Attacker anyway)! Who would have ever thought one of the terrors of the metagame would be a paper doll.
 
Well, they do say the worst pain is a paper cut, though I think this is going a bit far. Also I guess it never heard about paper thin defenses (though knows paper burns at fahrenheit 451). And its as fast as a piece of paper in the wind.

*Dodges a stack of printing paper* Okay, I'll stop with the paper jokes. But still this thing is a bit scary even if it does fold to a special attacker *is hit with a newspaper*.

STAB is pretty much Leaf Blade and Smart Strike (why do we not have a Steel-type Slash yet? The name writes itself: Steel/Razor Blade!). Also gets Sacred Sword, Aerial Ace, Night Slash, X-Scissor, Psycho Cut, and Brick Break (also Guillotine). Utilities are Defog, Synthesis, Laser Focus, and Swords Dance.

Geez, this thing gets more cutting moves than the Honedge family (though most people use it as a Special Attacker anyway)! Who would have ever thought one of the terrors of the metagame would be a paper doll.
It really looks very dangerous...



... on paper.
 
After opening the damage calculator this thing actually has a surprising number of defensive checks (mainly bulky steel and fire types) and I think people are overestimating how good this thing is against defensive teams. I'm not denying it's a good wall breaker but I ultimately think it wouldn't be broken if it had 60 base speed for example. I think it will ultimately get banned from OU for its speed combined with its attack and Beast Boost allowing it to do great work against offense. Here are some calculations based on a set that I think will bring it over the edge :

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike/Night Slash
- Swords Dance
(using Mew as Kartana)

Hard Checks:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 129-152 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 118-139 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

(Kartana has to boost first to beat Landorus-T reliably)

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 116-136 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meta Metagross can switch in twice even if Kartana predicts and can OHKO with Hammer Arm after Rocks
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 244-288 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 110-131 (32 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO

Mega Scizor has to run Superpower to beat it though:
44 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 202-238 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 94-110 (28.1 - 32.9%) -- 89.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stall staple walls Kartana though it may be able to boost against it because Brave Bird only does about 30%.

If Aegislash comes back Kartana may struggle initially
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- 15.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bulky Charizard forms:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Mega Charizard X: 125-148 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and Zard OHKO's back though having rocks off the field is really helpful. Physically Defensive Zard-Y is a hard counter but that hasn't been viable since Mega Mawile left OU.

Even Mega Aggron and max speed Mega Latias are checks:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Meteor Mash (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 212-250 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and Kartana's lack of special bulk is really showing.

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 107-127 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO

Counters:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 105-125 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 71% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Heat Wave OHKO's back
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 91-108 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lord Arcanine comes and saves the day

So it has counters and checks. Really Terrakion is harder to switch into for defensive teams (though Stone Edge does miss 20% of the time) because it has a better stab combo and higher base power moves. What sets apart Kartana from Terrakion specifically is that Beast Boost is completely ridiculous, it has a much better defensive typing (especially because it takes physical priority like aqua jet and bullet punch a million times better than Terrakion) and slightly better physical bulk, and that swords Dance is money. What sets Kartana apart from slower wall breakers like Crawdaunt that are better against stall than Kartana is its ability to beat offense with its 109 speed tier and wreck face with beast boost.

Edit: I am editing this to say that I have completely overlooked the possibility of using night slash over steel stab to better hit Mega Metagross (though it still outspeeds you 1v1) and potentially Aegislash. You miss out on the OHKO on Clefable and you may have more trouble with Magearna but overall you may not lose much.
 
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After opening the damage calculator this thing actually has a surprising number of defensive checks (mainly bulky steel and fire types) and I think people are overestimating how good this thing is against defensive teams. I'm not denying it's a good wall breaker but I ultimately think it wouldn't be broken if it had 60 base speed for example. I think it will ultimately get banned from OU for its speed combined with its attack and Beast Boost allowing it to do great work against offense. Here are some calculations based on a set that I think will bring it over the edge
I see what you did there.
 
After opening the damage calculator this thing actually has a surprising number of defensive checks (mainly bulky steel and fire types) and I think people are overestimating how good this thing is against defensive teams. I'm not denying it's a good wall breaker but I ultimately think it wouldn't be broken if it had 60 base speed for example. I think it will ultimately get banned from OU for its speed combined with its attack and Beast Boost allowing it to do great work against offense. Here are some calculations based on a set that I think will bring it over the edge :

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Smart Strike/Night Slash
- Swords Dance
(using Mew as Kartana)

Hard Checks:
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 129-152 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 118-139 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO

(Kartana has to boost first to beat Landorus-T reliably)

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 116-136 (38.5 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meta Metagross can switch in twice even if Kartana predicts and can OHKO with Hammer Arm after Rocks
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 244-288 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 110-131 (32 - 38.1%) -- 95.7% chance to 3HKO

Mega Scizor has to run Superpower to beat it though:
44 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 202-238 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 94-110 (28.1 - 32.9%) -- 89.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stall staple walls Kartana though it may be able to boost against it because Brave Bird only does about 30%.

If Aegislash comes back Kartana may struggle initially
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 86-101 (26.5 - 31.1%) -- 15.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bulky Charizard forms:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Mega Charizard X: 125-148 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and Zard OHKO's back though having rocks off the field is really helpful. Physically Defensive Zard-Y is a hard counter but that hasn't been viable since Mega Mawile left OU.

Even Mega Aggron and max speed Mega Latias are checks:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Meteor Mash (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Latias: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 212-250 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and Kartana's lack of special bulk is really showing.

252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 107-127 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 67.6% chance to 3HKO

Counters:
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 105-125 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 71% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Heat Wave OHKO's back
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Mew Sacred Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 91-108 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lord Arcanine comes and saves the day

So it has counters and checks. Really Terrakion is harder to switch into for defensive teams (though Stone Edge does miss 20% of the time) because it has a better stab combo and higher base power moves. What sets apart Kartana from Terrakion specifically is that Beast Boost is completely ridiculous, it has a much better defensive typing (especially because it takes physical priority like aqua jet and bullet punch a million times better than Terrakion) and slightly better physical bulk, and that swords Dance is money. What sets Kartana apart from slower wall breakers like Crawdaunt that are better against stall than Kartana is its ability to beat offense with its 109 speed tier and wreck face with beast boost.

Edit: I am editing this to say that I have completely overlooked the possibility of using night slash over steel stab to better hit Mega Metagross (though it still outspeeds you 1v1) and potentially Aegislash. You miss out on the OHKO on Clefable and you may have more trouble with Magearna but overall you may not lose much.
Probably the hardest, most reliable check to it is standard magnezone. Paper thin defenses give way to HP fire instantly
 
Grassium-Z looks like a promising item for Kartana as it'll help achieve a KO, resulting in an Atk boost and giving it the potential to effectively clean late-game. Also, if you SD as PDon switches in (let's not kid ourselves here, that thing's gonna be Ubers for sure):

+2 252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Primal Groudon: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and if, for some reason, PDon is fully invested in HP and Def (in addition to having a Def+ Nature):
+2 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Groudon: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (O_O)

Even without a boosting item like Life Orb, Kartana is still able to OHKO numerous Uber threats after setting up a Swords Dance, which means Kartana won't become dead weight once it uses its Grassium-Z and switches out after its Beast Boost activated (by fear of being RK for example).

I guess Steelium-Z could also be used to nail Ho-Oh (which Kartana can't touch otherwise), bulky Yveltal, Lugia and others after some prior damage (most of the time, SR will do the trick):

+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 320-377 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 438-516 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR damage)
+2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 387-456 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after SR damage)

Thoughts?
 
Probably the hardest, most reliable check to it is standard magnezone. Paper thin defenses give way to HP fire instantly
Keep in mind Kartana gets Sacred Sword. Life Orbed Sacred Sword and a +1 atk stat (through swords dance or Beast Boost) 100% KO's Magnezone (unless you are a Bold Magnezone spec'd entirely into HP and Defense.) Basically unless you swap in Magnezone at the same time as Kartana, as you can't sac a mon and then switch in Magnezone, (unless for some reason Kartana is paralyzed, with either sticky webs or Magnezone being scarfed/speed invested.)

In the OU tier, Gengar and Life Orb Alakazam are both good checks too. Both are faster and have a 100% chance of OHKO'ing with Shadow Ball. Really any special sweeper with over 110 base speed like Latios is a check.
 
Its not true, Unaware keeps the same!
252 Atk [Kartana Smart Strike] vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 258-306 (65.6 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk [Kartana] Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 612-720 (155.3 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Unaware apparently helps a lot.
 
Keep in mind Kartana gets Sacred Sword. Life Orbed Sacred Sword and a +1 atk stat (through swords dance or Beast Boost) 100% KO's Magnezone (unless you are a Bold Magnezone spec'd entirely into HP and Defense.) Basically unless you swap in Magnezone at the same time as Kartana, as you can't sac a mon and then switch in Magnezone, (unless for some reason Kartana is paralyzed, with either sticky webs or Magnezone being scarfed/speed invested.)

In the OU tier, Gengar and Life Orb Alakazam are both good checks too. Both are faster and have a 100% chance of OHKO'ing with Shadow Ball. Really any special sweeper with over 110 base speed like Latios is a check.
Ah yeah I keep thinking sacred sword is a special attack for some reason
 

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