Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion

Why not?

But okay, most other Rain support pokes don't do as well against Toxicroak, but you have to explain why this is important in the context of what is broken, and why it is only Uxie that breaks anything.

You might have a point, but so far you haven't even tried to make a valid argument that justifies it. And any argument based on only what you personally have trouble with is not a good one at all.

Counters to standard Rain pokes:

Toxicroak
Paralysis
Scarfed Electrode with Thunder (lol)
Tracer with T-bolt/Thunder (Garde/Pory2 mainly)
Golduck

Other than those, rain pretty much shits all over everything.

Uxie hard counters Toxicroak, outspeeding and OHKOing with Psychic or Zen Headbutt (or HP Psychic if you're a moron) and only loses to a +2 Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball after SR which is not going down thanks to Electrode lead.

Uxie eliminates all paralysis with Heal Bell, rendering sacrifice paralysis on Kabutops/Gorebyss useless.

Scarfed Thunder Electrode is completely nonviable outside of this one situation.

Uxie straight up walls Gardevoir and Pory2 and doesn't mind any status they send your way.

All Golduck can do is Encore Heal Bell or Rain Dance, which doesn't really make too much of a difference to Uxie.

Uxie is one of the best walls in UU, it is essentially a lesser Cresselia, boasting similar defensive stats and a better movepool. He is by far the sturdiest pokemon that can set up Rain Dance and isn't fazed by anything short of a boosted SE Attack (which won't happen if the Rain sweepers are doing their job.) He also has base 95 speed, meaning even if he doesn't invest in speed, he still outspeeds other walls and slow sweepers.

Combining the durability of Uxie with the enormous offensive power of Rain Dance is a problem. Uxie personally nullifies the majority of RD counters in addition to being an excellent setup poke.
 

shrang

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Counters to standard Rain pokes:

Toxicroak
Paralysis
Scarfed Electrode with Thunder (lol)
Tracer with T-bolt/Thunder (Garde/Pory2 mainly)
Golduck

Other than those, rain pretty much shits all over everything.
We really need to stop thinking what counter Rain teams and move to "how". Rain does not shit over everything as long as your opponent is not a n00b or retarded. I have shown stuff like Toxic Spikes, SubRoost Moltres (Sub anything, practically) give Rain hell. You can also run more specific counters like Tangrowth to counter Kabutops, Milotic in general gives Rain a hard time while Chansey rapes all Special sweepers.

Uxie is the sturdiest Rain Dancers, but it is easily set-up fodder when it comes in to restore Rain. For example, my SubRoost Moltres comes into Uxie every time and sets up a sub, which can then stall out even Kabutops if he gets Poisoned (You'll be surprised how many people SD up on my Sub while I Toxic them). Anything with a Sub can come into Uxie RDing and set up a Sub. These range from Sub Raikou, Houndoom, Mismagius, etc etc.
 
Uxie is the sturdiest Rain Dancers, but it is easily set-up fodder when it comes in to restore Rain. For example, my SubRoost Moltres comes into Uxie every time and sets up a sub, which can then stall out even Kabutops if he gets Poisoned (You'll be surprised how many people SD up on my Sub while I Toxic them). Anything with a Sub can come into Uxie RDing and set up a Sub. These range from Sub Raikou, Houndoom, Mismagius, etc etc.
This. I have found SubPunch Azumarill to be a great asset against rain. It can come in on Uxie or Registeel and set up a sub. From what I've seen, Rain Dancer Uxie usually doesn't have an attack move other than U-turn, and those that do run Zen Headbutt usually cannot break Azumarill's sub. When behind a sub it can then deal heavy damage with rain boosted Waterfalls. The sweepers are usually KOed by a combination of Focus Punch and Aqua Jet.

Or when you're in a tough spot, Azumarill can also come in after one of your Pokemon dies and deal with the sweepers. If you send it in at full health or on SR (which is commonly the case as rain teams do not set up Spikes), it can survive a Grass Knot from Ludicolo or HP Grass from Gorebyss/Omastar, set up a Sub, and proceed to Focus Punch them. It can also survive a +0 Stone Edge from Kabutops and hit it with a Waterfall. Most Kabutops will die to a combination of SR damage, one Life Orb recoil, and a Waterfall.
 
I have found that Lanturn is an absolutely insane rain supporter, arguably better than Uxie.

What Uxie Has
-Yawn
-U-Turn

What Lanturn Has
-Better typing
-Better coverage
-Can counter Raikou

Unlike Uxie, Lanturn can patch up the Raikou weakness that many rain teams have. After Rain runs out, Raikou can rampage through your team, forcing you to sacrifice two Pokemon to it (one to set up rain, one to break its sub). Lanturn can reliably counter Raikou unless it has HP Grass. If it does have HP Grass, well, it sucks to be you. But about half of all Raikou run HP Ice. Besides, with Uxie, it doesn't matter what Hidden Power Raikou has, you will always lose. I encourage everyone here to try Lanturn out over Uxie and tell me what you think.
 
I have found that Lanturn is an absolutely insane rain supporter, arguably better than Uxie.

What Uxie Has
-Yawn
-U-Turn

What Lanturn Has
-Better typing
-Better coverage
-Can counter Raikou (without HP Grass)
What Uxie Also Has
-Stealth Rock
-Base 95 Speed (Can potentially outspeed Toxicroak, Venusaur, Moltres, Rotom etc)
-Psychic/Zen Headbutt (DIE TOXICROAK/POLIWRATH/VENUSAUR DIE)
-Levitate (HI DONPHAN)
-Fighting Resist (For SubPunchers)


What Lanturn Also Has
-Base 67 Speed =(
-Immunity to Thunder Wave =D
 

SJCrew

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Really, the easiest thing to do if you want to counter rain or any weather every time is just toss Golduck somewhere on your team. Now that I have him on my main team, weather teams are just free wins.

Outside of rain, he's really just an average sweeper/cleanup Pokemon, but if you have another game plan and you're afraid Rain rolls right over it, just slap on Golduck and call it a day.
 
@lonewolf - lanturn is setup fodder for sub cm raikou, hp grass or not (probably even mono attacking raikou wins because of pressure)... unless you run waterfall lol

@d2m - umbreon learns rain dance

both shrang and sjcrew have a point. i think the better (read: more consistent) way of beating rain teams is to have a team-oriented strategy against them, like toxic spikes + sub moltres or milotic/tangrowth/chansey core or what have you. but sticking a pokemon like golduck or gardevoir or toxicroak into your team also works to an extent. i find that these pokemon-based strategies depend on your opponent not being prepared for them both mentally and team-wise. when they have a good contingency plan for your individual counters then you're kinda screwed, which is what i meant by team-based strategies being more consistent.
 

SJCrew

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It's not about being mentally prepared so much as it is the opponent really can't do anything about it. About the best I've seen to handle Golduck on a Rain team is Raikou and he's stopped by my five other team members (or just Dugtrio). The sweepers themselves are forced out or killed every time, which wastes Rain turns, gives me momentum, and nets me an easy win. I hadn't thought of Gardevoir, though, I'd actually like to try using it.

Still, having one Pokemon focused on countering Rain rather than the entire team is much easier, since it gives the rest of your team leeway to handle the rest of UU.
 
It's not about being mentally prepared so much as it is the opponent really can't do anything about it. About the best I've seen to handle Golduck on a Rain team is Raikou and he's stopped by my five other team members (or just Dugtrio). The sweepers themselves are forced out or killed every time, which wastes Rain turns, gives me momentum, and nets me an easy win. I hadn't thought of Gardevoir, though, I'd actually like to try using it.

Still, having one Pokemon focused on countering Rain rather than the entire team is much easier, since it gives the rest of your team leeway to handle the rest of UU.
But having one pokemon focused on rain will never be enough beacuse those 3-4 rain sweepers will overpower that pokemon with ease. You have to have atleast 2-3 pokes that can do something to rain to stand a chance
 
But having one pokemon focused on rain will never be enough beacuse those 3-4 rain sweepers will overpower that pokemon with ease. You have to have atleast 2-3 pokes that can do something to rain to stand a chance
We are not talking about Milotic or Tangrowth here.
Golduck and Gardevoir can reliably take out most rain sweepers (Gardevoir needs to beware Kabutops aqua jet). The issue is that if you are not facing rain they could be a wasted team slot (or at least a team slot that you could have used a lot better). SJCrew doesnt believe Golduck is a wasted slot, as he has been arguing.
Actually its the rain setups that are the bigger problem for the counters; golduck fears raikou, gardevoir has problems with Uxie (i wonder how much orb shadow ball does)
 
@lonewolf - lanturn is setup fodder for sub cm raikou, hp grass or not (probably even mono attacking raikou wins because of pressure)... unless you run waterfall lol
Uxie is worse setup fodder. Like I said earlier, you have to sacrifice Uxie and a rain sweeper to beat Raikou. Against a very experienced player, you can still lose with Lanturn. But against an average player, Lanturn can win. That's can vs. won't. I prefer can.

What Uxie Also Has
-Stealth Rock
Many rain teams don't even run Stealth Rock because it wastes time setting it up.

-Base 95 Speed (Can potentially outspeed Toxicroak, Venusaur, Moltres, Rotom etc)
Lanturn can handily beat Rotom and Nasty Plot Toxicroak, while Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt and Qwilfish can beat Swords Dance Toxicroak with some prediction. For Moltres, it's the same thing as Raikou. Against an average player, Lanturn can beat Moltres, while Uxie can't, even if it outspeeds. That just leaves Venusaur.

-Psychic/Zen Headbutt (DIE TOXICROAK/POLIWRATH/VENUSAUR DIE)
Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt and Qwilfish can beat both SD Croak and SubPunch Poliwrath with some prediction. Lanturn can beat NP Croak. Poliwrath will just nail Uxie with Waterfall. Once again, that only leaves Venusaur.

-Levitate (HI DONPHAN)
HI LUDICOLO.

-Fighting Resist (For SubPunchers)
For Poliwrath, read above. Azumarill isn't a Fighting-type, so Uxie doesn't beat it. You got me on SubPunch Toxicroak.


You need to remember that Lanturn isn't going to be the only Pokemon on the team. You also need to remember that there might be another rain supporter on the team. I personally run Mesprit, who has all of these things besides the higher speed.
 

SJCrew

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But having one pokemon focused on rain will never be enough beacuse those 3-4 rain sweepers will overpower that pokemon with ease. You have to have atleast 2-3 pokes that can do something to rain to stand a chance
Golduck ignores weather and outspeeds everything but Floatzel (who sucks ass, is mostly unused, and can't even kill him) with usable Sp Att. on his side, so he really doesn't need to do anything else. Him being a wasted slot is a matter of perspective; he's not a wasted slot if he exists to cover up one big weakness the rest of your team has, and he's still a Water type with decent speed, coverage, and Sp. Att. You can still use that in UU.

If Raikou comes in, I switch to my Raikou counter, like Registeel or Chansey. If they switch out, something gets hit by Thunder Wave. If it's Dugtrio, Raikou's dead without doing shit. Golduck is still alive and I still have the advantage. I've had plenty of instances in which I've played recklessly vs. Rain teams knowing Golduck would just insta-win the match for me no matter what.

I'm not claiming to be an exalted UU expert or anything, but I've had absolutely no problems with Rain since I started using it and I'm just sharing an alternative for people who don't want to dedicate their team to countering every rain sweeper. If you could use one Pokemon to fill that gap, the other five can do whatever they want and will ultimately decide how you win the rest of your matches.

Don't forget that Golduck still has a respectable base 85 speed under its belt, as well as 90 base Sp. Att, and even 82 base attack. Plenty of UUs boast worse stats and fill niches nowhere near as useful as stopping multiple metagame strategies (remember, this works with Sun and Sandstorm teams too, which Golduck is more than capable of handling on his own). Really, none of its stats are even bad and its movepool is actually quite good. It's just underestimated because it's not often seen as it is, and hasn't been able to make really good use of its exclusive ability until now.
 

shrang

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I'm just wondering, what are you running for Golduck?? Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass/Signal Beam or something like that?? He does seem to get 4 slot syndrome if you really gear it up to beat Sunny teams as well. (Other good moves can include Psychic for Qwilfish, Cross Chop for Chansey, I guess).
 

SJCrew

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Surf/Psychic/Signal Beam/HP Grass

Suprisingly enough, Psychic was mostly for Toxicroak. I hate that son of a bitch.

EDIT: I just faced a Sunny Day team with this today. Psychic and Signal Beam handled the Grass types marvelously and picking off the Fire types (aka Moltres/Arcanine) was easy because Golduck outspeeds them, ignores the sunlight, and KOs with Surf. I'm thinking about running Hydro Pump, since there have been instances where Surf fails to KO full HP Moltres, and I'll have to hit Venusaur a lot harder if I want to follow up with Psychic. It'll definitely help remedy its power deficit.
 
Surf/Psychic/Signal Beam/HP Grass

Suprisingly enough, Psychic was mostly for Toxicroak. I hate that son of a bitch.

EDIT: I just faced a Sunny Day team with this today. Psychic and Signal Beam handled the Grass types marvelously and picking off the Fire types (aka Moltres/Arcanine) was easy because Golduck outspeeds them, ignores the sunlight, and KOs with Surf. I'm thinking about running Hydro Pump, since there have been instances where Surf fails to KO full HP Moltres, and I'll have to hit Venusaur a lot harder if I want to follow up with Psychic. It'll definitely help remedy its power deficit.
Argh I'd hate to face Golduck under Sun too >< Outspeeding all the Grass types where Solarbeam takes one more turn to attack, outspeeding non +Speed Moltres and Arcanine... And since you're running Expert Belt I can't let it die to LO recoil.

Does it work well against Hail/Sand teams though?
 
Argh I'd hate to face Golduck under Sun too >< Outspeeding all the Grass types where Solarbeam takes one more turn to attack, outspeeding non +Speed Moltres and Arcanine... And since you're running Expert Belt I can't let it die to LO recoil.

Does it work well against Hail/Sand teams though?
When he is in he doesnt take the residual damage from the weather, Rock types lose their defense boost. No snow cloak/sand veil. Walrein is more manageable. So it is handy but..

Its not as good in sand/hail because the sand/hail has more subtle effects. Rain/sun just increase speed and sweep, taking away the speed is critical.
 
Golduck would fare much better against Sand / Hail if running Encore to screw up Regirock / Cradily / Walrein etc, but it usually needs all four attack slots to beat all the threats commonly seen on Rain and Sun teams. So by making your Golduck best suited for taking on offensive weather, you lose some impact against stall weather and vice versa.
 

Bad Ass

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Uxie is worse setup fodder. Like I said earlier, you have to sacrifice Uxie and a rain sweeper to beat Raikou. Against a very experienced player, you can still lose with Lanturn. But against an average player, Lanturn can win. That's can vs. won't. I prefer can.
Actually, uxie can actually zen headbutt or u turn to something that threatens raikou. Not to mention that extrasensory / shadow ball will easily ohko after the 6 calm minds you're allowing raikou!

Many rain teams don't even run Stealth Rock because it wastes time setting it up.
I really start to question how intelligent you are here. Stealth Rocks are the second most crucial thing to rain dance teams besides rain dance itself. Not to mention how, uh, every rain lead bar electrode sets up rocks?

Lanturn can handily beat Rotom and Nasty Plot Toxicroak, while Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt and Qwilfish can beat Swords Dance Toxicroak with some prediction. For Moltres, it's the same thing as Raikou. Against an average player, Lanturn can beat Moltres, while Uxie can't, even if it outspeeds. That just leaves Venusaur.
Lanturn can beat rotom. Nasty plot toxicroak? What the hell kind of lanturn is this? The most specially defensive lanturn out there take 90% - 106.2% from +2 focus blast. I call bullshit. Having no recovery and leaving moltres the option of just switching out and 2hkoing later isn't very good.

Ludicolo with Zen Headbutt and Qwilfish can beat both SD Croak and SubPunch Poliwrath with some prediction. Lanturn can beat NP Croak. Poliwrath will just nail Uxie with Waterfall. Once again, that only leaves Venusaur.
That's beside the point. You have to waste a slot for zen headbutt, waste a turn setting up a swords dance, etc. Or you could have a sturdy switch in to all these pokemon who can not only come in multiple times, but support the team while in.

HI LUDICOLO.
yea lets go get 2hkoed

For Poliwrath, read above. Azumarill isn't a Fighting-type, so Uxie doesn't beat it. You got me on SubPunch Toxicroak.
where is azumarill getting a sub up? where is it actually getting to attack, let alone aqua jet into a ludicolo?

You need to remember that Lanturn isn't going to be the only Pokemon on the team. You also need to remember that there might be another rain supporter on the team. I personally run Mesprit, who has all of these things besides the higher speed.
The point is that there are better things if you're rain dance weak then lanturn. I think you reeeeally need to think about what you say before you say it.
 
Just posting to say what a threat Shedinja is to Rain teams. I played this game earlier today where Qwilfish faced an Electrode lead. Tough call on what to use, I decided on Spikes thinking he'll set up RD so I can Waterfall and KO him. He Thunder's, hits and Qwilfish dies. A few more exchanges later (he evidently didn't know I was using a RD team myself, putting up rain for me) he brought in Shedinja, and I suddenly realized that all I had to KO Shedinja with was Stone Edge from Kabutops, which is obviously unreliable and has to hit twice through Focus Sash against a Pokemon who also has priority (Shadow Sneak).

I wonder what the best answer to Shedinja that rain can bring is. Any ideas?
 

shrang

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Entry hazards are pretty much the best way to stop Shedinja on a Rain team, obviously. The opponent is going to have a lot of trouble Rapid Spinning when they are pressured to stop your sweep. If they do spin them away, just set them up again, and bring back Kabutops to either force it out or kill it (Which means, do not Explode your Qwilfish on turn 2 or 3, keep it). You can also be an asshole and run Leech Seed on Ludicolo too (I swear I am going to try that, SD Ludicolo + Leech Seed, mmm yummy).
 

FlareBlitz

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I use Will-o-Wisp on Weezing to deal with it. Shedinja can't manage to 2hko even at +6, and WoW kills it instantly. You could also use Toxic.
Or just switch out of electrode leads and hazard up latter. My Qwilfish makes a great counter against enemy rain teams because it has the bulk to survive all sorts of shit (besides Gorebyss psychic, which it outspeeds anyway) and can proceed to just boom on them after setting up a layer of hazards.
 
Hi, many of you may know me as "make it rain" on Shoddy. I got to 1607 after about 5 days of UU by using a very aggressive Rain Dance that utilizes the big 3 rain dance sweepers (outlined below) as well as multiple explosions to force sacrifices of steel and rock types, opening up a late-game Swellow sweep. Swellow patches a lot of the problems RD has with fast mons coming in after Rain Dance and forces them to go to bulky steels or rocks to allow rain to be set up again.

I don't think we can say that it is necessarily any one sweeper that is to blame for rain's brokenness (Yes, it is broken!). SD Ludicolo, SD Kabutops, and SD Qwilfish ("The Big 3") make such a great team, forcing you to have multiple different priority attacks and/or bulky rain checks to beat them all. Honestly each of them contributes to a successful rain sweep, as it is often necessary to switch between them, utilizing their unique resistances and attacks to set up sweeping opportunities.

Qwilfish's Explosion and secondary poison STAB have already been discussed in length, but it also must be recognized how useful mach punch resistance is. I love going to Qwil as Hitmontop tries to priority kill one of the other two sweepers.

Ludicolo might not have impressive attack, but it is the most difficult to hard counter of the big 3 rain sweepers. There is one special set and there are also 2 distinct Swords Dance sets in my opinion: ones that run Zen Headbutt and ones that use Ice Punch. Each of these sets has no problem with bulky waters and all of them have different counters. It is also the easiest of the 3 to set up, as its neutral typing and special bulk are formidable. I often set up on Milotic, Steelix or Megahorn-less Rhyperior, among other things.

Kabutops might be the most scary on paper, but it is also the most easily countered. It's set is completely standardized, and there are very few ways to deviate from it. It suffers the most from common rain counter such as Toxicroak, Quagsire, and Poliwrath. Aqua Jet priority for messing with Sucker Punchers and Normal resistance to beat Extremespeeders also helps a lot, and it is still very effective in the late game when rain may be expelled.

Regarding other rain sweepers, they are just not nearly as powerful. Gorebyss and Omastar are very slow (outrun by Scarf Venusaur or Rotom in Rain), making them very weak out of rain, and lack Swords Dance, although they both have excellent starting special attacks, and Psychic/Earth Power/Ice Beam are all useful for taking out some common rain checks. Floatzel has good attack and (overkill) speed but really wishes he had Swords Dance rather than bulk up and a good secondary stab move to utilize. All of the other legal rain sweepers are clearly outclassed by one of the above 6.

Regarding what to do with Rain to weaken it, I think that either Damp Rock needs to be banned or some of the big 3 need to be removed from the tier, probably Ludicolo or Kabutops. These teams are very difficult to beat even if you are prepared, and these guys will destroy a team if there is any small team weaknesses or the opponent makes an incorrect play.
 
so what is golduck running? I am somewhat interested in trying it

and does it have the bulk to switch intot hings repeatedly or can it just come in after somethign dies?

ive never even seen a golduck on wifi in UU
 
After reading through this thread, I've been using a Golduck with Surf/Psychic/HP Grass/Signal Beam (thanks a ton, SJCrew. :D). Expert Belt is probably the best bet for the item, and a Timid 252/252/4 in Spe/SpA/HP lets it tie with Toxicroak. Not sure what everyone else is using, but that's my choice.

Golduck isn't the epitome of "bulky", but it can take a hit or two, from the few battles I've played with it. I suppose HP Ice could work better for coverage, but HP Grass does allow it to hit the RBY Fossils.

It might be possible to run Focus Punch to deal with Chansey and the like (outside of Weather teams), but you lose coverage somewhere if you do so. Although FP over HP Grass still allows it to hit a fossil on a switch, SD, etc... You'd have to change some of the EVs around, possibly, and it'd require more prediction.

I'm a newb to UU, so I'm probably overlooking a lot. :P
 

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