Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

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What? Are you suggesting we ban SR? Cause that's what this thread is saying to me. There are still plenty of Defoggers in the tier, like the rising stars Mew and Zapdos. Banning SR would look really bad to outsiders, as the prevalence of hazards isn't because it is inherently broken. Not much changed this generation other than spinners got worse. Banning any hazard would essentially prove certain YouTubers points. cough cough Verlisify
No, you're jumping to conclusions. I'm saying we need to look into things that place a huge strain on teams; the correct one to look at is Protean Ninja. That said, once that is banned (which I would be shocked to see it stay in OU), we need to continue looking at hazards in general, because this meta is essentially "Lay Hazards, force switches, PUNISH when they try to remove them, then rinse & repeat". This is really simplistic and streamlined, which is nice, but it's also been the meta for months and it's getting really boring. The meta hasn't really adapted beyond it, and while we banned one thing that made this strategy borked (Megagross), the essential issue has remained unaddressed: hazards rule this tier and we need to make hazard removal viable again for the metagame to truly be healthy.
 
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No, you're jumping to conclusions. I'm saying we need to look into things that place a huge strain on teams; the correct one to look at is Protean Ninja. That said, once that is banned (which I would be shocked to see it stay in OU), we need to continue looking at hazards in general, because this meta is essentially "Lay Hazards, force switches, PUNISH when they try to remove them, then rinse & repeat". This is really simplistic and streamlined, which is nice, but it's also been the meta for months and it's getting really boring. The meta hasn't really adapted beyond it, and while we banned one thing that made this strategy borked (Megagross), the essential issue has remained unaddressed: hazards rule this tier and we need to make hazard removal viable again for the metagame to truly be healthy.
Oh, okay. The wording in your post made it seem like we need a hazards suspect or something, but I misunderstood.

My question is how would we do that? Is there any hazard setter in particular that punishes removers to the point where it's too much to bare? I agree that hazards are something that should be addressed (mind you, not necessarily suspected), but I don't know what we could do about them.
 
Oh, okay. The wording in your post made it seem like we need a hazards suspect or something, but I misunderstood.

My question is how would we do that? Is there any hazard setter in particular that punishes removers to the point where it's too much to bare? I agree that hazards are something that should be addressed (mind you, not necessarily suspected), but I don't know what we could do about them.
Like I said, Greninja: it can Gunk Shot Fini, which would otherwise be a great switch in. The main issue is that the metagame evolved to punish things that can remove hazards--Fini used to be on essentially every team because it was so good at Defogging before people started abusing strategies that heavily pressured it.

You may be right--my wording may be confusing. I'm not advocating a suspect/ban on hazards; I'm saying we need to keep an eye on them (re: particularly effective hazard setters) beyond the next suspect test because I believe they make the metagame stale, unlike essentially every other meta I've played.

It isn't like this is unprecedented: we banned Deo-S and Deo-D because they were too effective at laying hazards. Greninja is not only effective at laying them, but also keeping them on the field.
 
Like I said, Greninja: it can Gunk Shot Fini, which would otherwise be a great switch in. The main issue is that the metagame evolved to punish things that can remove hazards--Fini used to be on essentially every team because it was so good at Defogging before people started abusing strategies that heavily pressured it.

You may be right--my wording may be confusing. I'm not advocating a suspect/ban on hazards; I'm saying we need to keep an eye on them (re: particularly effective hazard setters) beyond the next suspect test because I believe they make the metagame stale, unlike essentially every other meta I've played.

It isn't like this is unprecedented: we banned Deo-S and Deo-D because they were too effective at laying hazards. Greninja is not only effective at laying them, but also keeping them on the field.
Oh, okay. For now, let's focus on Gren and see how the meta develops when it goes and spam the council to suspect it ASAP

Also, out of curiosity, what other setters are there? The only two I can think of are Lando-T and maybe Mew....
 
The only hazard which I think should be really looked at is Stealth Rock.
Spikes always deal the same amount of damage when switching into them, regardless of the pokemon's typing - except that flying and levitating mons are immune to them and take no damage. Stealth Rock however deals damage based on the pokemon's weakness or resistance to rock-type moves, so that rock-resistant pokemon take much less damage than rock-weak pokemon. Ths leads to the evidence that the viability of a pokemon comes together with its weakness or resistance to stealth rocks.
In a meta without Stealth Rocks, I'm sure we will see much more different pokemon and you aren't forced to give up momentum for hazard removal that often.

Edit: Reviloja753 there are Excadrill, Chansey, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Jirachi....
 
The only hazard which I think should be really looked at is Stealth Rock.
Spikes always deal the same amount of damage when switching into them, regardless of the pokemon's typing - except that flying and levitating mons are immune to them and take no damage. Stealth Rock however deals damage based on the pokemon's weakness or resistance to rock-type moves, so that rock-resistant pokemon take much less damage than rock-weak pokemon. Ths leads to the evidence that the viability of a pokemon comes together with its weakness or resistance to stealth rocks.
In a meta without Stealth Rocks, I'm sure we will see much more different pokemon and you aren't forced to give up momentum for hazard removal that often.

Edit: Reviloja753 there are Excadrill, Chansey, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Terrakion, Ferrothorn, Jirachi....
Believe me, it's been discussed endlessly from 4th gen on. Big Smogon (what do you call the collective of policy review posters?) has in the past admitted that it's an incredibly overcentralizing move, and that yes it has an absurdly large effect on the viability of almost every mon in the metagame. However, it's considered to be integral to the metagame as we know it, and to how games are played. There's also very little evidence that the removal of stealth rock would actually create a better metagame. Obviously in the short run the meta would be unplayable because everyone would spam Dragonite and Volc and, I dunno, zard? Tflame? We would then ban the broken stuff and the meta would settle in a way that's hard to predict. It would be a massive shift no doubt, and there's no evidence that it'd be better. We can't take such a large step blindly. Last time I saw any discussion on this, they argued essentially that stealth rock has sufficient counterplay, that any good player can relatively easily get rid of rocks when needed, thus it's not broken. This argument may admittedly be less appropriate now given the state of hazard removal.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
After the Mega Metagross ban, I have noticed that there has been actually been more room for hazard removal options with the likes of Latios, Starmie, Mew, and Zapdos all seeing the resurgence of popularity as of late. However, I cannot deny that yes hazards still are extremely potent in the current metagame where spikestack offense dominating many tourney and ladder games. This is mainly thanks to the amount of offensive pressure certain threats can pose to opposing teams such as CB Zygarde, Specs Lele, Z-Stone Lando, and both Greninja formes, often meaning that certain hazard removers often are given many little opportunities to switch in safely and remove these hazard consistently.

Nonetheless, I really can't see any action being taken upon this since suspecting hazards is honestly something that should never be considered as decided within this thread. Maybe looking at removing one of the aforementioned threats I had mentioned can help alleviate this issue, but even then I can't see it resolving much due to the massive power creep that SM brought us. I feel this will be a "problem" that will fix itself as the meta progresses since we are already starting to see a shift from pure offensive teams towards a more Bulky Offense orientated meta ala ORAS. Basically im suggesting we should just let the meta settle a bit before considering anything at this point (besides Ash-Greninja cause fuck that pos).

Also yay no more ScoliPass, shit was getting annoying especially when Mega Hera came out.
 
Again, this is NOT the place to discuss policy or potential bans. Regardless of whether or not you think hazards are a broken element of the metagame, please do not proceed to theorymon or discuss a potential meta w/o them.
Not at all the intention behind my posts. I'm speaking specifically to the metagame as it currently stands, and intentionally left out any following effects. Any future-oriented sentiment is purely a pragmatic perspective on policy decisions. I'm not calling (as i stated before) for hazard suspect tests, and I do not like being misconstrued as saying such. I am well aware of how anemic this forum is towards anything perceived as theorymonning, so do not misinterpret my words as theorymonning.

All I am saying is hazard removal in this metagame blows donkey dicks despite any recent meta shifts, and I would like to call attention to this.

Rapid Spin users largely suck (Starmie is okay ONCE IT IS IN, but it has a hard enough time doing that).
Defoggers are complete momentum sinks and possibly setup bait depending on the matchup (Even if Mew can take advantage of certain things, it still is dead in the water versus a lot of incredible threats)

Notice I am NOT calling hazards broken; I am saying they take advantage of and rule the metagame.

Please stop assuming I'm asking for a hazard ban or am theorymonning; I expect the same intelligence in reading my posts as everyone else, especially from highly esteemed users on this forum.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Did I mention anywhere in my post that you specifically wanted to ban hazards? No. Your post was fine. But the responses to your post have not been, and I've had to delete many of them because of this. It was derailing into people talking about the metagame without SR and the policy behind it.
 
In my deleted post's defence, I was just trying to discuss what would potentially happen IF hazards were nerfed somehow, specifically Rocks.

It would be great if we had more reliable options to deter hazard setting spam. Like bulkier Magic Bounce users. Or defoggers with resistance to Rocks. Or a spinner that's bulky AND fast. I've been playing around with weakness policy Claydol because it has decent bulk and a few useful resistances/immunities, and it is immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Sticky Web and resistant to Stealth Rock. But it's not quite bulky or fast enough to be reliable :/
 
So BP finally got banned. That didn't take years at all.

But in all seriousness, I'm glad that it got the boot rather than another, overly complex clause in order to preserve the viability of ~3 Pokemon. I remember facing Scolipass multiple times in ORAS OU and despising it, and the additions of Necrozma and Magearna (among others) in SM pushed it way other the edge. Now that most of the cancer is gone, I might get back into OU.

...But currently, Shadows of Valentia has my soul.
 
I just wanted to give a couple musings about how the metagame is affected by the BP ban as a whole. The BP ban basically makes Shedinja stall unviable because Shedinja pivoting into Dugtrio to trap would-be switchins like Heatran and Tyranitar was one of the made things that made it work. Also, this ban drops the viability of several recipients like Espeon, Necrozma, etc. that coveted getting the speed boost while others like Mega Heracross and Magearna are still as viable as ever when it comes to dealing with bulkier teams and the ever-rising Tapu Lele respectively
Well, even though Shedinja can't pivot as effortlessly, as before, it doesn't mean it can't wall its previous victims (think Keldeo, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele), and will force switches. Shedinja isn't unviable completely – it just can't pivot as well as before.

On an unrelated note, hazards are ravaging the metagame, especially with prime abuser Greninja and fall of Latis as Defoggers. It's a shame, as it either forces me to use Greninja or forces me to use Tapu Fini (neither of which I particularly enjoy).
 

The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
On an unrelated note, hazards are ravaging the metagame, especially with prime abuser Greninja and fall of Latis as Defoggers. It's a shame, as it either forces me to use Greninja or forces me to use Tapu Fini (neither of which I particularly enjoy).
To be fair, the hazard removal we have rn is the best it's been since the Pheromosa ban. Mew has been shooting up in viability, Mantine is a niche pick on some teams (but usually pretty meh) that's seen tour use recently, Tapu Fini is pretty bad but can work on select teams, Starmie is a bit better than it was a while ago but generally can't be justified on most teams. Obviously hazard control is in a pretty bad state as of right now, but it definitely could be worse.
 
Honestly with the Way hazards are right now unless your dead set on running something like Zards, Rock weak flyers or Volcarona your better off building your team to minimize damage from hazards rather trying to remove them. Outside of mew who has its own issues and starmie who needs a clean switch most removers are just bad right now either being hazard weak themselve's, Inviting set up sweepers or just flat losing to greninja. Until Gren goes I don't honestly see that changing.

All said tho I'm really enjoying MG Clefable right now and I would like to hear everyones thoughts on it. Thanks magic guard it could not care less about hazards which is an important trait in the meta and it helps to check the numerous megas running about since few can outright OHKO it as long as you keep it healthy and use a bold nature. Many struggle to 2hko. The lack of metagross and many exploitable scarfers like keldeo has also improved its fortunes. Its not flawless tho, Tapus, Z-moves, Magerna and Gren all strain its ability to check threats and Its powerless against the Allmighty volcarona Outside of T-wave/toxic. Still I want to hear what everyone thinks
 
I have to agree with this. I feel as though the best form of hazard ''removal'' is to actually prevent your opponent from even laying them through offensive pressure, which is obviously easier said than done. I don't feel as though the current hazard removers are actually all that ''bad'' per se, their just ''not good''. Defog being the primary hazard removal option also doesn't help. Hazard stacking is just so good, but defogging away your own hazards is kinda counter productive. I do find it kinda funny that hazards are amazing/hazard removal is sub-optimal yet Volcarona is a rather dominant force in the meta...

Agree with Clef being a cool utility mon. It's nowhere near as good as it was in ORAS, but its still pretty neat, being one of the few mons able to set rocks against Sableye.

Now, onto an actual post of my own. With Tyranitar rising, does anyone think sand offense will start to gain traction? The Char-Y/Ttar/Driller core was pretty good back in ORAS but I'm not so sure it holds up as well in today's meta. Char-Y is still an absolute beast with little to no switch-ins, but hazard removal being so mediocre, it's kinda hard to get it on the field...and Driller is just meh. Like, there are better mons I'd rather use as my steel or ground type. And Ttar not running smooth rock limits Drillers sweeping ability...Any thoughts?

First time poster, long time creepy forum lurker ^__^
 

Ema Skye

Work!
So Swampertite and Sceptilite are both finally out.

Swampert is probably now the preferred Swimmer for Pelipper due to the Electric immunity. I'm not sure what to think of Sceptile.
 
So Swampertite and Sceptilite are both finally out.

Swampert is probably now the preferred Swimmer for Pelipper due to the Electric immunity. I'm not sure what to think of Sceptile.
Mega Sceptile can check Greninja (Ash and Protean), Koko, Fini, Bulu, can nuke Lando-T, lure Heatran with EQ...I think it will have a good niche in OU
 
Now, onto an actual post of my own. With Tyranitar rising, does anyone think sand offense will start to gain traction? The Char-Y/Ttar/Driller core was pretty good back in ORAS but I'm not so sure it holds up as well in today's meta. Char-Y is still an absolute beast with little to no switch-ins, but hazard removal being so mediocre, it's kinda hard to get it on the field...and Driller is just meh. Like, there are better mons I'd rather use as my steel or ground type. And Ttar not running smooth rock limits Drillers sweeping ability...Any thoughts?

First time poster, long time creepy forum lurker ^__^
I think that even with Smooth Rock, Excadrill is a subpar pick in the meta right now. Zard Y is really only relevant thanks to its ability to just click Fire Blast and nuke everything(SolarBeaming and Focus Blasting anything that doesn't - heck, it can even afford to run HP Ice if you run Duggy support), and until it can address the issue of hazard removal it's not going to get any better. Tyranitar is obviously gaining traction right now and is still a great mon to have; I'd agree with the old weather combo returning to prominence, but I would sooner rely on something more bulky to rely on for hazard removal. Mew is a great mon to include on Zard Y/Tar teams for both its ability to defog and consistently roost off damage. (it also helps that it can run Psychic or Ice Beam for Toxapex or Zygarde respectively)

Tl;dr: the Zard Y and Tyranitar core is still as good as ever, but it can't support Excadrill nearly as effectively. Mew is a better choice for Zard Y teams, which are getting more and more linear with each meta shift.
 
Mega Sceptile can check Greninja (Ash and Protean), Koko, Fini, Bulu, can nuke Lando-T, lure Heatran with EQ...I think it will have a good niche in OU
Mega Sceptile is a pretty damn shaky check to all of those Pokemon and can't safely switch in on any of them. Even in its singular niche of being a fast check to most offense, it's got competition with Mega Alakazam and Mega Beedrill and can't break a lot of the typical defensive cores seen on other archetypes either. C would be generous for it.
 
Mega Sceptile is a pretty damn shaky check to all of those Pokemon and can't safely switch in on any of them. Even in its singular niche of being a fast check to most offense, it's got competition with Mega Alakazam and Mega Beedrill and can't break a lot of the typical defensive cores seen on other archetypes either. C would be generous for it.
The definition of a check, by an article of Smogon:
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Taking that scenario:

252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 612-720 (214.7 - 252.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

80 Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 234-276 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Poison type Greninja)

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 16+ SpD Tapu Fini: 330-390 (96.2 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 148-176 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 270-318 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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80 Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-380 (82.9 - 98.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 314-372 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 306-362 (89.4 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

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252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 278-330 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

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And so on...
I never said that Mega Sceptile will be a good switch-in for none of those mons I talked about (although it can come in Water Shuriken from Ash-Ninja all the time, Horn Leech from Bulu...), I said it can defeat those mons, what sets it up as a check for them. It won't be top-tier, for sure, but C is too low for it.
 
A strong point to consider with Sceptile though: several of the above mons are very STAB dependent if not primarily Choiced sets, as is the case with Ash-Greninja, CB Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, and Lando-T depends on the set (Defensive can't break Sceptile back, while Z-Fly sets need to weigh the one time use when Fly is pretty bad the rest of the match). Mega Sceptile's presence alone incurs a risk on these mons clicking their best STAB options, which significantly eases the overall pressure they put on the team, as Tapu Koko is significantly less frightening if it clicks a move not boosted by Electric Terrain, for example, and Ash-Greninja essentially has to leave the field if Sceptile comes in due to its 4x resist to Water Shuriken and greater speed; Sub Sceptile (if that set turns out to still be a thing) can even sub on it if it's locked (BB Water Shuriken does 20%-22% max depending on Neutral vs Naive for SpD), which dissuades Greninja from using its strong priority move and leaves it significantly more risky while Scarfers are present.
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
Just thought I'd chip in here, because why not, it seems interesting. The two hot points here seem to be Stealth Rocks and Mega Sceptile, so here I go.

Mega Sceptile
I really like this thing as a Greninja counter, provided you aren't coming in on Ice Beam. It's ability to force it out, as well as other things provided it's amazing coverage, are really something. Not to mention it's fast as all hell. EQ kills Koko, who would otherwise leave a serious mark with HP Ice, and the only thing I can see walling this thing to any extent is Celesteela. It's fast, moderately bulky (v e r y moderately), and hits really hard. I can see it being a counter to a bunch of things, namely Greninja, Koko, Toxapex, and more. You need to be scarfed or named Mega Alakazam to outspeed this thing, and things like Landorus and Bulu have so few ways of denting this thing they have to flee on the spot. All in all, I think the amount of prominent stuff Sceptile checks is gonna make it a pretty big thing once it's allowed in PS.

Stealth Rocks
Paying careful attention to what Gary said, I have a few choice words on Rocks. One, it's a very over centralizing move, as 90~% of battles nowadays are won with some form of entry hazard support, Rocks chief among those. Whether or not the meta is better off without Rocks is not my call, and I'm not by any means whatsoever saying it would or wouldn't be. However, I do raise you another point, one that's been stated so far, and that's that most hazard setters are already great, and viable Pokemon, as well as vastly outnumbering and overpowering the few viable removers we have. Zapdos, Latios, and Skarmory are about the best viable hazard removers around, and while Zapdos has means of pressuring many setters, it also invalidates your own hazard setters. Spinners are a complete crush on momentum and really hard to bring in safely, as Excadrill isn't the fastest thing around, Starmie can't do much in the hit-taking category, and Tentacruel just plain sucks nowadays becuase Psychic STAB exists. Now, if you want to be that one weirdo who uses Tsareena as your spinner, you go right ahead. HOWEVER. In Rocks' defense, it keeps things like Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, and Charizard Y in check very well. It's easily the best form of entry hazard, and is certainly a strong point nowadays.

TL;DR: Mega Sceptile is pretty hecking good as a check to a bunch of stuff, and setters of Rocks outweigh the removers pretty bad.
 
Gengar is definitely not less common than it was last gen. The usage stats are not updated, but compared to last gen, Gengar is significantly more common and relevant on ladder and tournament play.
well, from my experience, gengar hasn't really grown in popularity. Rather, we see a shift in the usage of its sets and roles. gengar is usually choiced now, and hardly runs life orb anymore. But also in general, I really dont think that we are seing as much of gengar as we did in ORAS
 
well, from my experience, gengar hasn't really grown in popularity. Rather, we see a shift in the usage of its sets and roles. gengar is usually choiced now, and hardly runs life orb anymore. But also in general, I really dont think that we are seing as much of gengar as we did in ORAS
He dropped in usage(for the first time he dropped to UU), but he ended ORAS being B+ rank, and now he is A rank in SM, so he rose in Vaibility for sure
 
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