Metagame Workshop

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I have just been looking into the march usagestats, and here's hope that this will give an idea what we'll probably be looking at when it comes to a potential hackmons uu.

These pokemon will be banned:
Gengar-Mega
Gyarados-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
Chansey
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Tyranitar-Mega
Lugia
Shedinja
Slaking
Registeel
Groudon-Primal
Kyogre-Primal
Rayquaza-Mega
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-A
Dialga
Giratina
Regigigas
Arceus
Audino-Mega
Kyurem-B
Kyurem-W
Greninja-Ash
Aegislash
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zygarde-Complete
Diancie-Mega
Solgaleo
Pheromosa
Kartana
Celesteela


These abilities will be banned for pokemon that don't already possess them:
Aerilate
Contrary
Dazzling/Queenly Majesty
Desolate Land
Fur Coat
Flash Fire
Imposter
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze
No Guard
Normalize
Pixilate
Psychic Surge
Poison Heal
Prankster
Regenerator
Refrigerate
Simple
Triage
Unaware
Unburden
(Sturdy)


These moves (maybe missing a few) will be banned for pokemon that don't already possess them:
Anchor Shot
Aromatherapy
Belly Drum
Bonemerang
Boomburst
Close Combat
Core Enforcer
Destiny Bond
Defog
Draco Meteor
Dragon Ascent
Dragon Tail
Earth Power
Extremespeed
Facade
Fake Out
Final Gambit
Fleur Cannon
Haze
Head Smash
Ice Beam
Ice Hammer
Icicle Crash
Judgment
King's Shield
Knock Off
Light of Ruin
Magma Storm
Metal Burst
Moonblast
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Overheat
Parting Shot
Power Trip
Precipice Blades
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Quiver Dance
Rapid Spin
Recover/variants
Sacred Fire
Secret Sword
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Shore Up
Spectral Thief
Spikes
Spore
Stealth Rock
Steam Eruption
Sticky Web
Stored Power
Substitute
Sunsteel Strike
Superpower
Tail Glow
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Trick/Switcheroo
U-turn
V-Create
Volt Switch
Whirlwind
Will-O-Wisp
Wish


One thing that immediately comes to mind is that certain moves are almost exclusively paired with a certain (would have been banned) ability. One of the most obvious is of course Superpower which is nothing remarkable without Contrary.
 
(My first idea, and first post on OM)

SwingMon

  • Metagame premise: Every stat change either minimizes or maximizes the respective stat. Swords Dance? Maximizes the attack stat in one move, even at minimum stat. Mud-Slap? Target now has minimum accuracy. Sticky Web? Minimum speed.
  • Potential bans and threats: Aforementioned sticky web. Otherwise, standard OU rules. If sticky web isn't banned, Magic Bounce users reign supreme. Perhaps Xatu or other Stored Power users? Parting Shot Pangoro?
  • Questions for the community. How should stat raising abilities work? Should they work as standard, or should Speed Boost maximize speed after one turn?
  • Should Burn apply standard 1/2 attack reduction, or more?
I've thought of this idea for a while, and would love your suggestions! Thank you!
 
I dont like the sound of that. After 1 dragon dance you could be at +6 +6, making an unaware user mandatory. Bulky boosters as well - Necrozma could have a 240 BP STAB stored power after 1 turn of set up. Porygon-Z could put every stat to +6 with Conversion. Memento and Parting Shot become insanely broken. I wouldn't play this
 
Yeah, sounds like it would make too many things too broken.

As such, may I give a suggestion? What if instead of maximizing stats, the stats boosts are actually doubled? Basically, a sort of SimpleMons (if that thing doesn't exist yet).

I suppose that, in that case, stuff like Tail Glow, Cotton Guard and Shift Gear would be really broken and should be immediately banned.
 
Let me know what you think!

I can't think of a name: Resistances Rethought

In this meta, Pokémon are given stat changes based on their weaknesses and resistances. For every resistance (or immunity) a Pokémon has, it loses 5 points from each of its base stats, and for every weakness, it gains 5 points to each stat. For example...

Crabominable. Poor Crabominable, with its dismal speed and terrible defensive typing, alongside poor bulk. Crabominable resists Bug, Dark, and Ice, but is weak to Fire, Fighting, Flying, Psychic, Steel, and Fairy. This would give it a 15 point boost to each of its base stats, changing it from 97/132/77/62/67/43 to 112/147/92/77/82/58. It's nothing life-changing, but it increases its viability to an extent.

Celesteela, on the other hand, is a remarkable force in OU. It has only two weaknesses in Electric and Fire, but has a whopping 10 resistances or immunities. It would therefore lose 40 points from each stat- 97/101/103/107/101/61 becomes 57/61/63/67/61/21 - rendering it terrible.

Potential Bans/Threats (or the opposite)

This meta has the standard OU banlist. I can't think of anything extra that would need to be banned, but I haven't exhausted every possibility. Ice (which comes with one sad resistance to itself) Pokémon will always benefit, and a Pokémon like Mamoswine might become too much with +15 to each stat.

On the other hand, Steel types will almost always suffer. Normal types receive nothing with one resistance and one weakness.

Questions

Is 5 a decent number for the stat changes per resistance/weakness? I was originally thinking 10 but I think that would be too much.
Should the boosts apply to all stats? Just defensive ones?
Should 4x resistances and weaknesses be treated differently?
Any broken mons or things I haven't considered?

Thanks!

 
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I have just been looking into the march usagestats, and here's hope that this will give an idea what we'll probably be looking at when it comes to a potential hackmons uu.

These pokemon will be banned:
Gengar-Mega
Gyarados-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
Chansey
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Tyranitar-Mega
Lugia
Shedinja
Slaking
Registeel
Groudon-Primal
Kyogre-Primal
Rayquaza-Mega
Deoxys-S
Deoxys-A
Dialga
Giratina
Regigigas
Arceus
Audino-Mega
Kyurem-B
Kyurem-W
Greninja-Ash
Aegislash
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zygarde-Complete
Diancie-Mega
Solgaleo
Pheromosa
Kartana
Celesteela


These abilities will be banned for pokemon that don't already possess them:
Aerilate
Contrary
Dazzling/Queenly Majesty
Desolate Land
Fur Coat
Flash Fire
Imposter
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Mold Breaker/Teravolt/Turboblaze
No Guard
Normalize
Pixilate
Psychic Surge
Poison Heal
Prankster
Regenerator
Refrigerate
Simple
Triage
Unaware
Unburden
(Sturdy)


These moves (maybe missing a few) will be banned for pokemon that don't already possess them:
Anchor Shot
Aromatherapy
Belly Drum
Bonemerang
Boomburst
Close Combat
Core Enforcer
Destiny Bond
Defog
Draco Meteor
Dragon Ascent
Dragon Tail
Earth Power
Extremespeed
Facade
Fake Out
Final Gambit
Fleur Cannon
Haze
Head Smash
Ice Beam
Ice Hammer
Icicle Crash
Judgment
King's Shield
Knock Off
Light of Ruin
Magma Storm
Metal Burst
Moonblast
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Overheat
Parting Shot
Power Trip
Precipice Blades
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Quiver Dance
Rapid Spin
Recover/variants
Sacred Fire
Secret Sword
Shell Smash
Shift Gear
Shore Up
Spectral Thief
Spikes
Spore
Stealth Rock
Steam Eruption
Sticky Web
Stored Power
Substitute
Sunsteel Strike
Superpower
Tail Glow
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
Toxic
Toxic Spikes
Trick/Switcheroo
U-turn
V-Create
Volt Switch
Whirlwind
Will-O-Wisp
Wish


One thing that immediately comes to mind is that certain moves are almost exclusively paired with a certain (would have been banned) ability. One of the most obvious is of course Superpower which is nothing remarkable without Contrary.

As much as I and probably a number of others like the idea of a (B)H UU, the idea has been shot down probably more times than the OM Leaders care to count. Though, who knows, maybe they'll approve of it this gen since its one of the bigger(est?) OMs.
 
Let me know what you think!

I can't think of a name: Resistances Rethought

In this meta, Pokémon are given stat changes based on their weaknesses and resistances. For every resistance (or immunity) a Pokémon has, it loses 5 points from each of its base stats, and for every weakness, it gains 5 points to each stat. For example...

Crabominable. Poor Crabominable, with its dismal speed and terrible defensive typing, alongside poor bulk and speed. Crabominable resists Bug, Dark, and Ice, but is weak to Fire, Fighting, Flying, Psychic, Steel, and Fairy. This would give it a 15 point boost to each of its base stats, changing it from 97/132/77/62/67/43 to 112/147/92/77/82/58. It's nothing life-changing, but it increases its viability to an extent.

Celesteela, on the other hand, is a remarkable force in OU. It has only two weaknesses in Electric and Fire, but has a whopping 10 resistances or immunities. It would therefore lose 40 points from each stat- 97/101/103/107/101/61 becomes 57/61/63/67/61/21 - rendering it terrible.

Potential Bans/Threats (or the opposite)

This meta has the standard OU banlist. I can't think of anything extra that would need to be banned, but I haven't exhausted every possibility. Ice (which comes with one sad resistance to itself) Pokémon will always benefit, and a Pokémon like Mamoswine might become too much with +15 to each stat.

On the other hand, Steel types will almost always suffer. Normal types receive nothing with one resistance and one weakness.

Questions

Is 5 a decent number for the stat changes per resistance/weakness? I was originally thinking 10 but I think that would be too much.
Should the boosts apply to all stats? Just defensive ones?
Should 4x resistances and weaknesses be treated differently?
Any broken mons or things I haven't considered?

Thanks!

Something like this was proposed earlier in the thread, but I still like the idea. I think 4x weaknesses should count for 10 points, and quad resistances should take away 10. Also, here is a set for something that while likely not super great, benefits about as much as Crabominable.

Aurorus @ Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
Ability: Refrigerate / Snow Warning
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 HP
Timid Nature
-Hyper Voice / Blizzard
- Freeze Dry
- Earth Power
- Psychic
 
Let me know what you think!

I can't think of a name: Resistances Rethought

In this meta, Pokémon are given stat changes based on their weaknesses and resistances. For every resistance (or immunity) a Pokémon has, it loses 5 points from each of its base stats, and for every weakness, it gains 5 points to each stat. For example...

Crabominable. Poor Crabominable, with its dismal speed and terrible defensive typing, alongside poor bulk and speed. Crabominable resists Bug, Dark, and Ice, but is weak to Fire, Fighting, Flying, Psychic, Steel, and Fairy. This would give it a 15 point boost to each of its base stats, changing it from 97/132/77/62/67/43 to 112/147/92/77/82/58. It's nothing life-changing, but it increases its viability to an extent.

Celesteela, on the other hand, is a remarkable force in OU. It has only two weaknesses in Electric and Fire, but has a whopping 10 resistances or immunities. It would therefore lose 40 points from each stat- 97/101/103/107/101/61 becomes 57/61/63/67/61/21 - rendering it terrible.

Potential Bans/Threats (or the opposite)

This meta has the standard OU banlist. I can't think of anything extra that would need to be banned, but I haven't exhausted every possibility. Ice (which comes with one sad resistance to itself) Pokémon will always benefit, and a Pokémon like Mamoswine might become too much with +15 to each stat.

On the other hand, Steel types will almost always suffer. Normal types receive nothing with one resistance and one weakness.

Questions

Is 5 a decent number for the stat changes per resistance/weakness? I was originally thinking 10 but I think that would be too much.
Should the boosts apply to all stats? Just defensive ones?
Should 4x resistances and weaknesses be treated differently?
Any broken mons or things I haven't considered?

Thanks!

Interesting... I like this idea. One thing to note is that it makes many Pokémon that are borderline OU/UU, but held back by horrid typing, fairly powerful. Such as Mamoswine. It has 5 weaknesses, and 1 resist, 1 immunity. This means that it gets +15 to every stat, leading to a Pokémon with 125/145/95/85/75/95, leading to a powerful threat with great natural bulk and a decent speed tier. I feel like the meta would point more towards offense than anything, leading to fast paced matches. Another threat might be Jynx, since it has 6 weaknesses and 4 resists, making +20 to each stat. This makes it have 85/70/55/135/115/115, becoming a viable special attacker with nice natural special bulk and cool offensive coverage.

On the other hand of the spectrum, this meta seems like it would be overrun by Ice/Rock/Psychic type Pokémon. Psychic doesn't have many more weaknesses than resists, but the stuff it is weak to aren't exactly common, at least probably not in this metagame. Especially not ghost. Any Pokémon with pure ghost type gets -10 to each stat.

I, personally, feel like you shouldn't drop stats for resists, but just raise them for weaknesses. Maybe do the -5 for resists, and +5 for weaknesses, but make it have a minimum of 0 so that no one loses stats. I also think a good name for this would be "Type Revenge", since you don't have a name yet.

If you do drop stats for resists, you just kill a lot of walls, making it hard to make a stall or even a balance team here. It also makes the metagame stationed around a few key types instead of just making those types viable. So, yeah, I think you shouldn't drop stats, but still factor in resists when going for stat changes. AKA like Gengar, who has 6 resists/immunities, and 4 weaknesses, has no change, instead of -10. However, Aurorus, with 6 weaknesses and 4 resists/immunities, doesn't gain +30, but rather +10. I also don't think you should double for quad weakness/resists.

One important thing to note is that if you DO drop stats below 0 via resists, almost any steel type is unviable. Take Ferrothorn for example. 2 weaknesses, 10 resists/immunities. This would mean it has -40 to each stat if you let it go below 0, leading to the Grass/Steel wall having 34/54/91/14/76/1 as its stats, something that isn't even viable in PU.

Tag: TheCoastsOfToast
 
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Interesting... I like this idea. One thing to note is that it makes many Pokémon that are borderline OU/UU, but held back by horrid typing, fairly powerful. Such as Mamoswine. It has 5 weaknesses, and 1 resist, 1 immunity. This means that it gets +15 to every stat, leading to a Pokémon with 125/145/95/85/75/95, leading to a powerful threat with great natural bulk and a decent speed tier. I feel like the meta would point more towards offense than anything, leading to fast paced matches. Another threat might be Jynx, since it has 6 weaknesses and 4 resists, making +20 to each stat. This makes it have 85/70/55/135/115/115, becoming a viable special attacker with nice natural special bulk and cool offensive coverage.

On the other hand of the spectrum, this meta seems like it would be overrun by Ice/Rock/Psychic type Pokémon. Psychic doesn't have many more weaknesses than resists, but the stuff it is weak to aren't exactly common, at least probably not in this metagame. Especially not ghost. Any Pokémon with pure ghost type gets -10 to each stat.

I, personally, feel like you shouldn't drop stats for resists, but just raise them for weaknesses. Maybe do the -5 for resists, and +5 for weaknesses, but make it have a minimum of 0 so that no one loses stats. I also think a good name for this would be "Type Revenge", since you don't have a name yet.

If you do drop stats for resists, you just kill a lot of walls, making it hard to make a stall or even a balance team here. It also makes the metagame stationed around a few key types instead of just making those types viable. So, yeah, I think you shouldn't drop stats, but still factor in resists when going for stat changes. AKA like Gengar, who has 6 resists/immunities, and 4 weaknesses, has no change, instead of -10. However, Aurorus, with 6 weaknesses and 4 resists/immunities, doesn't gain +30, but rather +10. I also don't think you should double for quad weakness/resists.

One important thing to note is that if you DO drop stats below 0 via resists, almost any steel type is unviable. Take Ferrothorn for example. 2 weaknesses, 10 resists/immunities. This would mean it has -40 to each stat if you let it go below 0, leading to the Grass/Steel wall having 34/54/91/14/76/1 as its stats, something that isn't even viable in PU.

Tag: TheCoastsOfToast

Thank you so much for the feedback!! You're definitely right about steel becoming completely useless if the resistances are factored in the way I originally suggested. I think the idea of never going negative is definitely a good one, or maybe a cap at -10 per stat (or something like that) if people think there should be a penalty for the strong resistors. I like the idea that this meta could boost some Pokémon into usage (Mega Glalie, Mega Abomasnow) and I think it would be wrong to completely destroy others' viability (Kartana, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc.) in doing so. Also, I actually haven't found any Pokémon that would get more than +15 in stat boosts yet, so I don't think it would completely break anything (as far as I know).
 
You might want to consider banning Weavile, a plus 10 to each stat for an already great Pokémon would be lethal. Same scenario for Latias and Latios gaining a plus 5.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
Let me know what you think!

I can't think of a name: Resistances Rethought

In this meta, Pokémon are given stat changes based on their weaknesses and resistances. For every resistance (or immunity) a Pokémon has, it loses 5 points from each of its base stats, and for every weakness, it gains 5 points to each stat. For example...

Crabominable. Poor Crabominable, with its dismal speed and terrible defensive typing, alongside poor bulk. Crabominable resists Bug, Dark, and Ice, but is weak to Fire, Fighting, Flying, Psychic, Steel, and Fairy. This would give it a 15 point boost to each of its base stats, changing it from 97/132/77/62/67/43 to 112/147/92/77/82/58. It's nothing life-changing, but it increases its viability to an extent.

Celesteela, on the other hand, is a remarkable force in OU. It has only two weaknesses in Electric and Fire, but has a whopping 10 resistances or immunities. It would therefore lose 40 points from each stat- 97/101/103/107/101/61 becomes 57/61/63/67/61/21 - rendering it terrible.

Potential Bans/Threats (or the opposite)

This meta has the standard OU banlist. I can't think of anything extra that would need to be banned, but I haven't exhausted every possibility. Ice (which comes with one sad resistance to itself) Pokémon will always benefit, and a Pokémon like Mamoswine might become too much with +15 to each stat.

On the other hand, Steel types will almost always suffer. Normal types receive nothing with one resistance and one weakness.

Questions

Is 5 a decent number for the stat changes per resistance/weakness? I was originally thinking 10 but I think that would be too much.
Should the boosts apply to all stats? Just defensive ones?
Should 4x resistances and weaknesses be treated differently?
Any broken mons or things I haven't considered?

Thanks!
In addition of those who told you the suggestions, I can give the multiple types that could benefit the most and those who could be hindered the most, but I will give specific examples (mostly based types);
  • Electric-type, in general, will not have many benefits or would even get hindered does to only one weakness, so they will have -10 without another type.
  • Fire-type, in general, would not be benefitted much either; six resistances is a lot, compared to three weaknesses, so it would end it up to only have -15 without another type, and might be hindered the most next to Steel.
  • Fairy-type would not go far either. One immunity, three resistances compared to only two weaknesses might slightly hurt Fairy-types in general with -10.
  • Ghost-type will also have -10 does to two immunities, two resistances, and only two weaknesses, making Ghost-type less efficient in general, but it is not compared to Poison that would get -15. Why I said that is because it would be detrimental to the Gengar line, as each will get -10 which can make a difference.
  • Basically, anything with only one or two weaknesses would get hindered, especially when it get a lot of resistances (immunity included).
  • The only types that really benefit are Ice-type, Psychic-type, Rock-type and Grass-type as only they got at least one more weakness than resistances, with Ice standing out the most.
  • Ice-Silvally can be dangerous, as all of it's base stats would be 110, making it 110/110/110/110/110/110 and a BST of 660, on par of Kyurem itself!
  • As pointed out in the quote in my post, Ice-type might certainly gain a fighting edge, with even pure-Ice-type would be a lot better because of better stats, such as Glaglie (especially Mega Glalie), Regice, Glaceon, Vanilluxe, Beartic, Cryogonal, and probably Avalugg.
  • Despite Water being disadvantaged in general, combining it with Ice would actually make Ice/Water slightly better. Walrein, maybe Dewgong, Cloyster and Lapras would be likely to get up, if anything.
 
I'll sign onto the "stat buffs only" train. Not only is it simpler, I worry that nerfing Steels and Fires would only serve to make Grass and Ice that much more dominant, restricting the meta and making it more like Inverse.
 
So I know Why Nerdy has already posted about Tier Shift for consideration, but I wanna get some pretty in depth feedback with the direction we should go so I'll post again

Metagame premise: The basic premise of Tier Shift, as always, is that lower tiered Pokemon get a stat boost according to the tier they are in. With the assumption of last gen's boosts, UU and BL2 get +5, RU and BL3 +10, NU and BL4 +15, and PU +20 to every stat.

Potential bans and threats: Given the OU base and general closeness to that tier I'd be uncomfortable banning anything that isn't absurd, Rain proved to be this last gen but there are new fixes for it this gen we can take into account.

Questions for the community: Here's basically the reason I'm posting. There are quite a few directions we could go in here that would each make Tier Shift very different this gen. The way I see there are 3 directions:
  • Make Tier Shift into an Ubers based metagame exclusively
  • Do exactly what we did last gen, with Tier Shift and Extreme Tier Shift being separate and just see what happens
  • Make Tier Shift OU based with more volatile boosts (maybe +10 per tier, maybe +5 but BLs count [ie +5 BL, +10 UU, +15 BL2, etc.]) as a sort of middle ground of metagame between TS and ETS, with risk of breaking some things
I have pretty big reservations about making Tier Shift exclusively Ubers based this gen, as Ubers based metagames without some absurd change can tend to be either volatile or just Ubers with minor bits changed. However, I also understand the reason why Tier Shift ends up being popular: as a way to make shitty mons competitively viable in a fairly normal metagame. This is also why at some point ETS completelly skyrocketed in popularity, since shit like Avalugg could get something nuts like 240 BST added to it making it decent and what have you. More volatile boosts to the OU version may do the trick is my thinking, but where's the point where we're breaking things?

We've still got a month to make these decisions luckily and in that time I'll be doing some polling on my own, if anyone wants to add on to one of the directions I put out there or pitch something I'm dumb and not thinking of go for it.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
So I know Why Nerdy has already posted about Tier Shift for consideration, but I wanna get some pretty in depth feedback with the direction we should go so I'll post again

Metagame premise: The basic premise of Tier Shift, as always, is that lower tiered Pokemon get a stat boost according to the tier they are in. With the assumption of last gen's boosts, UU and BL2 get +5, RU and BL3 +10, NU and BL4 +15, and PU +20 to every stat.

Potential bans and threats: Given the OU base and general closeness to that tier I'd be uncomfortable banning anything that isn't absurd, Rain proved to be this last gen but there are new fixes for it this gen we can take into account.

Questions for the community: Here's basically the reason I'm posting. There are quite a few directions we could go in here that would each make Tier Shift very different this gen. The way I see there are 3 directions:
  • Make Tier Shift into an Ubers based metagame exclusively
  • Do exactly what we did last gen, with Tier Shift and Extreme Tier Shift being separate and just see what happens
  • Make Tier Shift OU based with more volatile boosts (maybe +10 per tier, maybe +5 but BLs count [ie +5 BL, +10 UU, +15 BL2, etc.]) as a sort of middle ground of metagame between TS and ETS, with risk of breaking some things
I have pretty big reservations about making Tier Shift exclusively Ubers based this gen, as Ubers based metagames without some absurd change can tend to be either volatile or just Ubers with minor bits changed. However, I also understand the reason why Tier Shift ends up being popular: as a way to make shitty mons competitively viable in a fairly normal metagame. This is also why at some point ETS completelly skyrocketed in popularity, since shit like Avalugg could get something nuts like 240 BST added to it making it decent and what have you. More volatile boosts to the OU version may do the trick is my thinking, but where's the point where we're breaking things?

We've still got a month to make these decisions luckily and in that time I'll be doing some polling on my own, if anyone wants to add on to one of the directions I put out there or pitch something I'm dumb and not thinking of go for it.
I think making Tier Shift Ubers based is a huge mistake. Even if OU pokemon got +5 instead of UU pokemon, the powerlevel between the top tier Ubers and the rest of the Pokémon is too great.
Plus we'd have to deal with Ubers not having Baton Pass banned, meaning EeveePass might become super duper annoying.

I've always liked Tier Shift how it was last gen bringing lower pokes to similar power as OU and ETS bringing all pokes to similar power as Ubers and keeping the pretty separate. The only thing I'd consider changing would be including BL tiers with the tiers below them rather than above, that way UU and BL pokemon getting +5 rather than UU and BL2. This is mostly because BL pokemon are not good enough to be used in the tier above them. (Plus it gives more pokemon more boosts which is always good)
 
There's no reason for Extreme Tier Shift to exist. It never should've been approved (and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be had I been the one who submitted it) - it's literally just a turbocharged version of another meta. Tier Shift I found disappointing last gen, so I think increasing the boosts could help. I have to concur with not making it Ubers based - all Ubers based mets end up being dominated by Primal Groudon, and even with the buffs this would be no exception.
 
I think making Tier Shift Ubers based is a huge mistake. Even if OU pokemon got +5 instead of UU pokemon, the powerlevel between the top tier Ubers and the rest of the Pokémon is too great.
Plus we'd have to deal with Ubers not having Baton Pass banned, meaning EeveePass might become super duper annoying.

I've always liked Tier Shift how it was last gen bringing lower pokes to similar power as OU and ETS bringing all pokes to similar power as Ubers and keeping the pretty separate. The only thing I'd consider changing would be including BL tiers with the tiers below them rather than above, that way UU and BL pokemon getting +5 rather than UU and BL2. This is mostly because BL pokemon are not good enough to be used in the tier above them. (Plus it gives more pokemon more boosts which is always good)
Yeah I generally agree that Ubers would be too volatile a base for this metagame, but I also wanted to put it out there as I won't rule against a majority.

That is how the BL boosts used to be until about midway through last gen, the logic being that A: it would balance rain and B: the pokemon are too good for the lower tier so why factor them as if they are a part of that tier?
There's no reason for Extreme Tier Shift to exist. It never should've been approved (and I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be had I been the one who submitted it) - it's literally just a turbocharged version of another meta. Tier Shift I found disappointing last gen, so I think increasing the boosts could help. I have to concur with not making it Ubers based - all Ubers based mets end up being dominated by Primal Groudon, and even with the buffs this would be no exception.
ETS had its own niche, I never opposed it existing despite undying love of normal TS. It also helps now in that we know a middle ground between the two could garner more play as normal TS last gen sorta fizzled.
 
So I know Why Nerdy has already posted about Tier Shift for consideration, but I wanna get some pretty in depth feedback with the direction we should go so I'll post again

Metagame premise: The basic premise of Tier Shift, as always, is that lower tiered Pokemon get a stat boost according to the tier they are in. With the assumption of last gen's boosts, UU and BL2 get +5, RU and BL3 +10, NU and BL4 +15, and PU +20 to every stat.

Potential bans and threats: Given the OU base and general closeness to that tier I'd be uncomfortable banning anything that isn't absurd, Rain proved to be this last gen but there are new fixes for it this gen we can take into account.

Questions for the community: Here's basically the reason I'm posting. There are quite a few directions we could go in here that would each make Tier Shift very different this gen. The way I see there are 3 directions:
  • Make Tier Shift into an Ubers based metagame exclusively
  • Do exactly what we did last gen, with Tier Shift and Extreme Tier Shift being separate and just see what happens
  • Make Tier Shift OU based with more volatile boosts (maybe +10 per tier, maybe +5 but BLs count [ie +5 BL, +10 UU, +15 BL2, etc.]) as a sort of middle ground of metagame between TS and ETS, with risk of breaking some things
I have pretty big reservations about making Tier Shift exclusively Ubers based this gen, as Ubers based metagames without some absurd change can tend to be either volatile or just Ubers with minor bits changed. However, I also understand the reason why Tier Shift ends up being popular: as a way to make shitty mons competitively viable in a fairly normal metagame. This is also why at some point ETS completelly skyrocketed in popularity, since shit like Avalugg could get something nuts like 240 BST added to it making it decent and what have you. More volatile boosts to the OU version may do the trick is my thinking, but where's the point where we're breaking things?

We've still got a month to make these decisions luckily and in that time I'll be doing some polling on my own, if anyone wants to add on to one of the directions I put out there or pitch something I'm dumb and not thinking of go for it.
I mentioned it on Discord, I think making Tier Shift Ubers based will work. We saw last generation that ETS had a bit more popularity. There should not be two versions and this is a good middle-ground. I had a similar idea as you, OU with +10, UU with +20, etc. (I even had the BL idea in my mind, but it adds complexity to the OM because you can't just say "+10 for every tier below Ubers"). I definitely think this is the way to go with Tier Shift. And Ubers is technically a tier now so...
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
So I know Why Nerdy has already posted about Tier Shift for consideration, but I wanna get some pretty in depth feedback with the direction we should go so I'll post again

Metagame premise: The basic premise of Tier Shift, as always, is that lower tiered Pokemon get a stat boost according to the tier they are in. With the assumption of last gen's boosts, UU and BL2 get +5, RU and BL3 +10, NU and BL4 +15, and PU +20 to every stat.

Potential bans and threats: Given the OU base and general closeness to that tier I'd be uncomfortable banning anything that isn't absurd, Rain proved to be this last gen but there are new fixes for it this gen we can take into account.

Questions for the community: Here's basically the reason I'm posting. There are quite a few directions we could go in here that would each make Tier Shift very different this gen. The way I see there are 3 directions:
  • Make Tier Shift into an Ubers based metagame exclusively
  • Do exactly what we did last gen, with Tier Shift and Extreme Tier Shift being separate and just see what happens
  • Make Tier Shift OU based with more volatile boosts (maybe +10 per tier, maybe +5 but BLs count [ie +5 BL, +10 UU, +15 BL2, etc.]) as a sort of middle ground of metagame between TS and ETS, with risk of breaking some things
I have pretty big reservations about making Tier Shift exclusively Ubers based this gen, as Ubers based metagames without some absurd change can tend to be either volatile or just Ubers with minor bits changed. However, I also understand the reason why Tier Shift ends up being popular: as a way to make shitty mons competitively viable in a fairly normal metagame. This is also why at some point ETS completelly skyrocketed in popularity, since shit like Avalugg could get something nuts like 240 BST added to it making it decent and what have you. More volatile boosts to the OU version may do the trick is my thinking, but where's the point where we're breaking things?

We've still got a month to make these decisions luckily and in that time I'll be doing some polling on my own, if anyone wants to add on to one of the directions I put out there or pitch something I'm dumb and not thinking of go for it.
If you do make the meta ubers based I think there needs to be larger increments so that other Pokemon can be viable. At +10 per tier a base 600 mon would need to fall to RU before it could even match the base 680 monsters in Ubers, which currently means... Cresselia, Diancie, Goodra, Hoopa, Kommo-o, Meloetta, Necrozma, Shaymin. Notably most of these things movepools don't match up to ubers, so basically what I think we're going to see a bunch of ubers and a couple mons with highly specialized stats or high quality abilities that manage to carve a niche for themselves. I would prefer a more different meta from the standard ones than more similar personally, with different faces.

Also I might be wrong but its my understanding that Ubers is still a banlist first and a tier second. While yes it is a tier now with all the shebang that goes with it there's still no BL0 or whatever (and won't be from what I understand), so Ubers is just where banned OU mons go. I'm not sure if this really effects my thinking at all, as I personally adhere to the philosophy of making the best tier possible rather than following rules and definitions as closely as possible.

Honestly I think a combination of 1 + 3 might be your best bet, but I'm not sure of the details of how that could work out.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
Yeah I generally agree that Ubers would be too volatile a base for this metagame, but I also wanted to put it out there as I won't rule against a majority.

That is how the BL boosts used to be until about midway through last gen, the logic being that A: it would balance rain and B: the pokemon are too good for the lower tier so why factor them as if they are a part of that tier?

ETS had its own niche, I never opposed it existing despite undying love of normal TS. It also helps now in that we know a middle ground between the two could garner more play as normal TS last gen sorta fizzled.
Nothing in BL nor BL2 set rain or have swift swim, so as of now I can't see changing it back affecting rain too much, especially when Pelipper could affect rain more. BL pokemon aren't strictly better than UU pokemon. They're better than the UU metagame, but TS is based in the OU metagame where BL and UU pokemon are effectively the same.
 
Just dropping an idea I had earlier today.

Ability Activation

Premise:
Abilities that activate and cause a certain effect will automatically happen when the Pokémon with the ability is sent out into battle. So for example, Pokémon with Lightingrod automatically gain +1 in Special Attack upon switching in, and Weak Armor gives a Pokémon +1 Speed and -1 Defense upon entrance. The abilities would still work as normal during a battle.

Potential Bans: Certain abilities such as Anger Point would cause +6 Attack upon entering, which is obviously broken and may need to be banned. Beast Boost may also be too powerful. Some people may become too powerful with abilities such as Moxie, and since the abilities would still activate as normal throughout a battle it could create a lot of chaos and make a lot of Pokémon difficult to handle.

Questions for the Community: Should the metagame only apply to direct stat changes? Or should abilities like Guts be activated upon switch-in, even if the Pokémon isn't statused? Should Regenerator automatically heal a Pokémon when they enter a battle? Should Healer have a 30% chance of healing a random ally when the Pokémon switches in?
At the very least, it should be limited to abilities that broadcast a message, so Guts wouldn't do anything special. Likewise, Regenerator is always silent.

Wimpod + Golisopod though...automatic endless battle at the first turn?

Mimikyu becomes pretty bad, being automatically busted before it can do anything.

What about Iron Barbs/Rough Skin as a sort of reverse entry hazard? Aftermath? Innards Out?
 
Pursuit Lock (temporary name)

  • Metagame premise: Switching out immediately kills you, unless u-turn, baton pass, or volt switch is used. However, sometimes switching is necessary to prevent set-ups.
  • Potential bans and threats: Perish Song might be banned, as it forces a switch out, even if the target dies in that process. Shedinja is a major threat, as it can force many Pokémon out.
  • Question for the community: Should entry hazards be banned?
  • Should Pokémon list be hidden so that the element of surprise can force switches?
  • Should death only occur if switching out on an attacking move?
 
Pursuit Lock (temporary name)

  • Metagame premise: Switching out immediately kills you, unless u-turn, baton pass, or volt switch is used. However, sometimes switching is necessary to prevent set-ups.
  • Potential bans and threats: Perish Song might be banned, as it forces a switch out, even if the target dies in that process. Shedinja is a major threat, as it can force many Pokémon out.
  • Question for the community: Should entry hazards be banned?
  • Should Pokémon list be hidden so that the element of surprise can force switches?
  • Should death only occur if switching out on an attacking move?
can you explain why this meta would be fun, and more enjoyable than an ou metagame?
 
It encourages stand-alone attack cores with wide coverages each- on the opposite end, walls become uniquely powerful by preventing these aforementioned attackers.
 
You havent really said anything.. mons already aim for maximum coverage in their attacks. I just encouraging you to make more of a solid, detailed explanation since this meta idea stems directly off of the blacklisted idea of "switching is not allowed" and is not gunna get accepted without a really good reason
 
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