M&M Mix and Mega

If pro-Sleepers are going to ignore inconvenient parts of my posts, like the part where I addressed the "But this particular counter on one pokemon can counter it so there!" "argument" before it was used, can I do the same to the posts of pro-sleepers? Do I have permission to do the following?



Yes, I'm sure Magic Guard and Magic Bounce pokemon are immune to sleep. So are pokemon with Insomnia. And Pokemon holding Lum Berries can resist sleep once. And dark Pokemon are immune to Hypnosis and grass Pokemon are immune to spore, so having some no-guard Alolan-Raichu/Xurkitree force a switch on you and get an easy advantage over you is perfectly fair and balanced, right? One move letting a Pokemon disable one of your Pokemon and force you to let it die and let it disable another one, or force you to switch and let that Pokemon take damage, that's fair where you're from, right? Good, glad I understand how things work on your planet.

I know how sleep clause works, don't tell yourself I don't. It isn't enough to lessen the disgusting brokenness of sleep spamming.
You never really showed us the "brokenness" of so-called "sleep spamming", you just asked us if we "enjoyed" having an irrelevant fast Pokemon sleep us and then called Xurkitree fast. Sure, nobody enjoys being put to sleep, but nobody enjoys facing stall either. There's a lot more viable counterplay to sleep in this meta than there is to stall, and there's plenty to that as well.

Also you said that dark types are immune to hypnosis and Magic Guard users are immune to sleep before saying you understand sleep mechanics lol
 

drampa's grandpa

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Ok. Let's take this piece by piece.

If pro-Sleepers are going to ignore inconvenient parts of my posts, like the part where I addressed the "But this particular counter on one pokemon can counter it so there!" "argument" before it was used, can I do the same to the posts of pro-sleepers? Do I have permission to do the following?
Sablenite is not on one particular pokemon. In Mix and Mega it's on basically every team that isn't heavy offense. It's very common and very viable.
There's a whole list of things that can check sleep. You've been given some of them. But starting with Sablenite is a great place.

Yes, I'm sure Magic Guard and Magic Bounce pokemon are immune to sleep. So are pokemon with Insomnia, Vital Spirit, and Comatose. And Pokemon holding Lum Berries can resist sleep once. And dark Pokemon are immune to Hypnosis and normal Pokemon and pokemon with Soundproof are immune to Sing and grass Pokemon are immune to spore, so having some no-guard Alolan-Raichu/Xurkitree force a switch on you and get an easy advantage over you is perfectly fair and balanced, right?
Alolan Raichu is bad lol.
Offensive Pokemon forcing switches is nothing new. More defensive teams you're going to have easy answers (probably a Sablenite Blissey) while more offensive teams will find it easy to revenge kill either Xurk or Raichu if they bother boosting, and if they keep the momentum up properly they should not even have to resort to that. Offensive teams also generally have an easier time sacking things to sleep in my experience, providing they have something that can come in afterwards.

One move letting a Pokemon disable one of your Pokemon and force you to let it die and let it disable another one, or force you to switch and let that Pokemon take damage, that's fair where you're from, right? After all, if it's possible for some highly-situational sub-optimal pokemon to counter a broken strategy, it should be allowed to run freely? Good, glad I understand how things work on your planet.

I know how sleep clause works, don't tell yourself I don't. It isn't enough to lessen the disgusting brokenness of sleep spamming, especially not in a meta like this where Prankster Spore and No Guard Sing can be a thing.
Forcing a pokemon to switch and take damage? That's a very basic part of Pokemon as a whole. If that was uncompetitive/broken everything that wasn't stall would be banned in like every tier... In some tiers Sleep can be a problem sure (imo it is in STABmons, or maybe I'm just salty) but in a tier where pokemon like Sablenite Blissey and Magearna exist and Xurkitree, the only good sleep user you named, is slowaf even with Pidgeotite boosts? I'm sorry it's just not the case.

If you want help dealing with sleep in MnM try stopping by the Other Metas and someone there will be willing to help (unless you stop by between the hours of 1:30 and idk AM EST, then the room will be dead af).

If we're going to use complex bans for rarely-seen and impractical "Endless battles" setups, we should have simple bans for this broken combination of moves and mega stones.
Just replying to this one part, Endless Battle Clause is server wide and has nothing to do with Mix and Mega as a meta, and I'm fairly sure is there because it's both really annoying to play against people with hours to kill who just want to wait until you give up and leave without actually having an avenue to victory and because battles that are thousands of turns long can lag the server. It's not going away and implementing it cost Mix and Mega no time or thought.
 
Well... my Xurkitree set can sweep and win 6-0 pretty easily.
Zap Cannon + No Guard should be banned too.
Really, Diancite beats the heck out of Xurkitree.
Sleep Clause means that you can't use a sleep inducing move while the opponent is asleep (ONE SLEEPING OPPONENT AT A TIME).
6-0 doesn't mean anything. If the opponent has not a single Mega and you 6-0 them it's still a 6-0, just against an unskilled player. No Guard Zap Cannon can be walled pretty easily by Blissey and even Specially Defensive Magearna or Dusk Mane Necrozma. Diancite doesn't necessarily beat Xurkitree; it just allows the holder and incredible ability to revenge kill with high offenses and speed. With enough power a lot of things beat Xurkitree easily. Xurk isn't exactly what you'd call bulky.
Sleep Clause means that no more than one Pokemon in the party can be put to sleep
Also I wrote this so lol.

It isn't enough to lessen the disgusting brokenness of sleep spamming,
Sleep Clause is exactly what keeps it from being "disgustingly broken". With it you can "sleep sack" a non-check and go into a check without fear of being put to sleep. You find switching and letting another Pokemon take damage unfair? Then literally don't play competitive Pokemon lol. Magic Bounce stones are far from sub-optimal or highly situational; in fact they make great stones both defensively and offensively. You never elaborated on the "switching and letting another Pokemon take damage" part enough. Switching is one of, if not the most important components of competitive Pokemon itself; it allows people to switch out their Pokemon in unfavourable situations into something that can deal with said Pokemon on the opposing side of the field. If you don't understand that concept, I honestly do not think that you have authority to rant about how something so easily countered can be broken in any way possible. Let's look at the possible checks to the so-called "broken" combos:

Prankster Spore (Breloom @ Banettite)
-literally the most used Pokemon in the tier, Altarianite Zygarde
-other relevant Flying or Fairy types such as Pinsirite/Salamencite/Altarianite Landorus-Therian
-fast revenge killers that hit hard on Breloom, e.g. Glalitite Weavile
-literally all -atespeeds

No Guard Hypnosis (Gengar/Xurkitree @ Pidgeotite) (I'm sorry, Alolan Raichu has never been and will never be relevant due to its frailness and susceptibility to priority and strong hits in general)

-Thousand Arrows on any variant of Zygarde
-a Primal Groudon that is not asleep
-something that can stomach special hits in general and possess Magic Bounce like Sablenite Blissey or Magearna
-literally anything with good offenses and speed exceeding base 130
-once again, strong priority

These aforementioned checks are something you and I can both come up with; yet you argue that it can break teams by allowing a Pokemon to be immobilized and subsequently die and have this cycle endlessly repeat until all 6 mons are down. That is a simple newbie mistake that most experienced players, even ones not familiar with Mix and Mega (but know of the existence of Sleep Clause and sleep sacking) know not to make, and those who do in fact lose to said "strategy" are simply unskilled and do not understand the fundamental skill of utilizing Sleep Clause to their advantage.

As previously mentioned, I don't understand how switching and letting another Pokemon take damage is detrimental to the general game and therefore makes "sleep spam" broken. If anything, it makes sleep spam far less broken, due to there being no possibility of immobilizing another Pokemon and rendering it useless.

Sorry all of you experienced players have to read this, I just feel that explaining this was necessary.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Please ban the combination of Sing/Hypnosis/Spore and Prankster/No Guard. If we're going to use complex bans for rarely-seen and impractical "Endless battles" setups, we should have simple bans for this broken combination of moves and mega stones.

Do you enjoy having fast pokemon like Alolan Raichu and Xurkitree put your Pokemon to sleep, forcing a switch or forcing you to keep that sleeping Pokemon in, hoping it wakes up BEFORE it's taken out and the sleep-abuser gets to put another of your pokemon to sleep? Then go play Balanced Hackmons and have your Deoxys-S use Mold Breaker and Spore, because that garbage ruined that meta and shouldn't ruin this one.

Do you think replacing a Mega Stone or Orb with a single-use Lum Berry in this meta "Just in case" you run into a sleep abuser is a good idea that TOTALLY doesn't prove sleep is antithetical to what this meta's supposed to be at all? No comment.

Inb4 "Spore is balanced because it doesn't works on Grass types, just use six of those".
im sorry but i had to raise from the dead just to comment about this because nobody else is.

dont ever try to compare an uncompetative to-the-extreme element of the game to a 2-3 turn single mon nullifier that has multiple counterplay's and doesn't even swing the match 50% of the time if you even slightly prepared for it. even in this context. theres a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge gap.

endless battle clause is created due to the fact that endless battles creates a huge hole in the philosophy of competitive AND having fun. moreso then wonderguard, moreso then fucking shadow tag. endless battle is the ONLY strat that's single purpose is to make the game as drawn out and pointless as possible until your opponent gives up/you give up. its an aspect that has NO benefits, NO competative aspects NO fun, and does nothing but ruin any attempt of having a competative OR fun match. it is literally a strategy you use if you want to ruin someones day. you don't use it to win. you don't use it for fun. you just use it to annoy your opponent in hopes that they leave before you do.

sleep is something (especially in this meta) that has a plethora of viable methods of handling and even in the off chance a mon is asleep it doesn't automatically RUIN the game like endless battle does.

if you can convince me with a straight face and solid reasoning timer stalling is a perfectly fine strategy to WIN in a competitive/fun aspect, then maybe ill let this argument slide and hear you out. but if your seriously telling me a somewhat annoying aspect like sleep(that we have a clause specifically made to make sleep more manageable) should be banned because we have a complex clause designed to stop a literal cancer to competitive AND fun aspects in games, you honestly need to get your facts checked.

i dont even give a shit about the arguments in this chat right now, that first line shows me you dont understand the CRITICAL difference between a objectively broken aspect in certain scenarios in which you don't prepare for them enough and possibly STILL can outplay via skill, and an uncompetative aspect where no matter HOW hard you may try to stop it, if it catches you off ONCE the game is over. no skill or luck can break you out. you just got to click X. even if you were in a "Guarenteed win" scenario. if it caught you off guard, its over. if you mentioned ANY other uncompetative aspect, swagger clause, shadow tag clause, ANY OTHER CLAUSE id forgive you. but you HAD to mention the ONLY ONE the ONLY-SINGLE-UNCOMPETATIVE-ASPECT that is LITERALLY DESIGNED WITH THE INTENTION TO RUIN YOUR DAY AND HAS NO COMPETATIVE OR FUN BENEFITS WHATSOEVER. to argue about sleep. i cant be the only one mad about this right? why is everyone glossing over this?!

usually id try to be a bit more gentle with saying this. but seeing your aggressive posts your a man. you can handle a bit of sass.

edit: eughh...looking back i probably shouldve calmed down a bit before posting. its night so im a bit off and grumpy i guess.
 
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Ok jesus christ I'm going to address two things here because apparently this fucking monferno knows better than Chazm, the #1 mnm player.

#1 pichuelectro that Xurkitree set has been around since the beginning of time and offers no new insight, teams are built to prepare for it with the combination of priority and magic bounce.

#2 Winning720 the mons you're talking about specifically are Xurkitree, Gengar, Breloom I believe. If there are other sleepers(you mentioned A Raichu but that's bad) that I'm missing then please point them out though the counterplay is probably very similar.

For Breloom, it's not good rn even with the like 170 base attack because the meta is currently centered around ate speed and that thing is dying to any pinsirite/altarianite extreme speed. Some magic bouncers also beat it, obviously not blissey but I've seen sablenite mandibuzz which beats it, the problem here is that grass types are immune to spore which is why ate speed is better.

For Xurkitree, this thing is powerful in the meta but has two things holding it back. #1, even with pidgeotite this thing has a lackluster speed tier for this meta meaning you'll usually see it being run with webs. So just run defog on something to get rid of them(supportceus, zapdos) and you'll be fine. Most Diancite users outspeed it and can use MAGIC BOUNCE to bounce back hypnosis as well as being able to deal huge damage if not straight OHKOing it, and there are also some good mons(such as the monster Pidgeotite Deo S) capable of outspeeding Xurk even under webs, making it annoying but handlable.

For Gengar, the set is Hypnosis Hex Sludge Wave Zap Cannon/Focus Blast/some coverage. Gengar is different because one of the two common ate speeds in the meta, pixilate, is not very effective. However, aerilate still handles it and if you have some sort of Glalitite set go for it. Gengar is another mon with a lackluster speed tier, being outsped and killed by Pidg Deo S, Diancite Terrak, Metagrossite Tana, etc. And again, you can just magic bounce back the sleep with any stone that supplies it, being the very common Sablenite and Diancite as well as the still prevelant Absolite.

Overall your argument is invalid to the tier due to the fact that players have already devised ways of beating these issues, and the sets cause people a minor annoyance or maybe a late game sweep at best.
 
Ok jesus christ I'm going to address two things here because apparently this fucking monferno knows better than Chazm, the #1 mnm player.

#1 pichuelectro that Xurkitree set has been around since the beginning of time and offers no new insight, teams are built to prepare for it with the combination of priority and magic bounce.

#2 Winning720 the mons you're talking about specifically are Xurkitree, Gengar, Breloom I believe. If there are other sleepers(you mentioned A Raichu but that's bad) that I'm missing then please point them out though the counterplay is probably very similar.

For Breloom, it's not good rn even with the like 170 base attack because the meta is currently centered around ate speed and that thing is dying to any pinsirite/altarianite extreme speed. Some magic bouncers also beat it, obviously not blissey but I've seen sablenite mandibuzz which beats it, the problem here is that grass types are immune to spore which is why ate speed is better.

For Xurkitree, this thing is powerful in the meta but has two things holding it back. #1, even with pidgeotite this thing has a lackluster speed tier for this meta meaning you'll usually see it being run with webs. So just run defog on something to get rid of them(supportceus, zapdos) and you'll be fine. Most Diancite users outspeed it and can use MAGIC BOUNCE to bounce back hypnosis as well as being able to deal huge damage if not straight OHKOing it, and there are also some good mons(such as the monster Pidgeotite Deo S) capable of outspeeding Xurk even under webs, making it annoying but handlable.

For Gengar, the set is Hypnosis Hex Sludge Wave Zap Cannon/Focus Blast/some coverage. Gengar is different because one of the two common ate speeds in the meta, pixilate, is not very effective. However, aerilate still handles it and if you have some sort of Glalitite set go for it. Gengar is another mon with a lackluster speed tier, being outsped and killed by Pidg Deo S, Diancite Terrak, Metagrossite Tana, etc. And again, you can just magic bounce back the sleep with any stone that supplies it, being the very common Sablenite and Diancite as well as the still prevelant Absolite.

Overall your argument is invalid to the tier due to the fact that players have already devised ways of beating these issues, and the sets cause people a minor annoyance or maybe a late game sweep at best.
Well I sweep from the start because when Xurkitree gets the tail glow up, it just kills the magic bouncers, not to mention Xurkitree can take a hit so sticky web isn't needed. The devised ways to beat the issues can be devised too, such as using Zap Cannon when the magic bouncers switch in and effectively killing them. Honestly, I don't see anyone using Xurkitree, so it's cool.
 

Chloe

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This ends here, we're not looking into suspect testing Pidgeotite Zap Cannon or Sleep or any of those shenanigans for the simple reason that they're not that potent in the current metagame. I would write paragraphs on why but Chazm and a few others did a good job at explaining this already.

Regardless, drop this topic, thank you.
 
Apologies if this is not the correct place for this - I'm not certain if it deserves its own thread/suggestion/submission or if it would be better off here, and I haven't posted on these forums in literally years.

Has a non-ubers-based "tier" of MnM been considered? As it stands, IMO, this meta is pretty much an AG for its concept, and as such, is very unbalanced and overcentralized (again, IMO). Not to say it isn't awesome and fun - but, would the idea of something like a MnM UU potentially be a thing? The concept of MnM is so fascinating and entertaining, but to play the meta you're limited to a pool of about 3-dozen decent mons with which to play with said fascinating concept...

Perhaps MnM but with a BST cap, or simply a vanilla banlist consisting of most of the ranked pokemon here?

Just a thought - again, apologies if this is misplaced.
 
Apologies if this is not the correct place for this - I'm not certain if it deserves its own thread/suggestion/submission or if it would be better off here, and I haven't posted on these forums in literally years.

Has a non-ubers-based "tier" of MnM been considered? As it stands, IMO, this meta is pretty much an AG for its concept, and as such, is very unbalanced and overcentralized (again, IMO). Not to say it isn't awesome and fun - but, would the idea of something like a MnM UU potentially be a thing? The concept of MnM is so fascinating and entertaining, but to play the meta you're limited to a pool of about 3-dozen decent mons with which to play with said fascinating concept...

Perhaps MnM but with a BST cap, or simply a vanilla banlist consisting of most of the ranked pokemon here?

Just a thought - again, apologies if this is misplaced.
Mix and Mega UU does exist on rom.psim.us (albeit under the Unofficial Metagames section), but since there's hardly anyone even online most of the time you're not gonna be finding a MnM UU ladder over there. As for potentially nomming it as OMotM might be possible, but as I am not familiar with those things I'll be leaving those for Chloe or The Immortal to explain.

As for the banlist of Mix and Mega UU, from what I've heard is just banning the most used Pokemon (e.g. Primal Groudon, Zygarde, Golisopod, etc) along with the current MnM banlist so stuff like Gyarados gets a chance to shine.
 
Has a non-ubers-based "tier" of MnM been considered? As it stands, IMO, this meta is pretty much an AG for its concept, and as such, is very unbalanced and overcentralized (again, IMO). Not to say it isn't awesome and fun - but, would the idea of something like a MnM UU potentially be a thing? The concept of MnM is so fascinating and entertaining, but to play the meta you're limited to a pool of about 3-dozen decent mons with which to play with said fascinating concept...

Perhaps MnM but with a BST cap, or simply a vanilla banlist consisting of most of the ranked pokemon here?
Mix and Mega UU does exist on rom.psim.us (albeit under the Unofficial Metagames section)
The reason Mix and Mega UU is listed as Unofficial on ROM is that it's not the official MnM UU which is the vanilla banlist consisting of most of the ranked pokemon as in the UU OM thread. Instead it's actually Mix and Mega, but using an OU banlist and only UU and lower Pokémon are allowed to Mega Evolve.
 
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So I have a question. Does greninja's battle bond boosts stack with a mega stone boost? Like, I get a kill before I mega evolve, go into Greninja's Ash form, and THEN mega evolve. Would the stat boosts of the mega boost on top of the Ash form, or would they just go back and boost Greninja's base form, thus taking away the ash form boosts?

So yeah does Battle Bond stat boosts stack with Mega Stone stat boosts

I've tried it in battle, and yes, you can mega evolve after you go into ash form.
 

Eli

any?
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It resets you to base Greninja if you mega evolve after getting Battle Bond activated, only adding boosts to base. It'll take away the Ash form entirely.
 
So I have a question. Does greninja's battle bond boosts stack with a mega stone boost? Like, I get a kill before I mega evolve, go into Greninja's Ash form, and THEN mega evolve. Would the stat boosts of the mega boost on top of the Ash form, or would they just go back and boost Greninja's base form, thus taking away the ash form boosts?

So yeah does Battle Bond stat boosts stack with Mega Stone stat boosts

I've tried it in battle, and yes, you can mega evolve after you go into ash form.
I've actually tested this, and basically if you Mega after you turn into Ash form, nothing happens. The Greninja still has its Ash form stats and ability. Not even the ability of the stone or its increases.
Hope that answered your question!
 

Fardin

Tournament Banned
I just wanted to let you guys know, nothing viable in the game can switch in and wall pidg xurk with hypno reliably! It also got 100+ speed
 
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Grass types not named Celebi and Venusaur are pretty much unusable in the tier and you should never resort to those.
Eh, Alolan Eggs isn't that bad, and I like it as a trick room setter.

Everyone complaining about No Guard Hypnosis, but what about Prankster Destiny Bond :p
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I just wanted to let you guys know, nothing viable in the game can switch in and wall pidg xurk with hypno reliably! It also got 100+ speed
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 354-417 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
i tried. (and before you say blissey NEEDS the defense ev's thus this isnt a viable set, blisseys main purpose to invest in defense is to mostly soak up psyshock/mixed sets better, which 60 def does that decently already) but yeah, not even the blob can really switch in, so your going to have to rely on something unconventional like...sablenite swampert and pray they dont run the famous "grass/electic why-the-fuck-are-you-running-shit-coverage combo." cursepert appriciates the bulk+bounce for it, so its not a completely terrible set.(you can also run gastrodon/quagsire if lack of recovery turns you off THAT much
 

Fardin

Tournament Banned
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 354-417 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
i tried. (and before you say blissey NEEDS the defense ev's thus this isnt a viable set, blisseys main purpose to invest in defense is to mostly soak up psyshock/mixed sets better, which 60 def does that decently already) but yeah, not even the blob can really switch in, so your going to have to rely on something unconventional like...sablenite swampert and pray they dont run the famous "grass/electic why-the-fuck-are-you-running-shit-coverage combo." cursepert appriciates the bulk+bounce for it, so its not a completely terrible set.(you can also run gastrodon/quagsire if lack of recovery turns you off THAT much
yh, i agree with u..tho the set u calced does not and should not exist. the usual 252 def+ 252 sp def would be more ideal, or 252 hp 252 def+. Also grass knot on xurk is perfectly reasonable imo. At +3, zap cannon 2kos the likes gira as well so it only has to worry about immunities. That mon is nuts

e. to the post below me.
tru, but xurk is like hoopa on steroids. there are many mons that can wall most of hoopa's standared sets in ou such as chansey, cele, mage, AV tang, sp def zapdos and etc. its not the same for xurk. Also the main way i would personaly deal with it is bulky grass or dragon types that could uturn to fast mons, but that option is not possible due to hypno. xurk is cancer
 
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Kyo

In Limbo
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This is probably a shit comparison but I really feel like xurx's situation is basically that of hoopa-u in OU which is to say that just about nothing can actually wall it and bulky/stall teams are going to get shredded but it's slow (for the tier) and frail. Xurx is easy enough to beat with revenge killers and offensive teams in general so idk if I I think it's outright busted
 
On the whole Xurkitree matter - yes, I'll admit, Xuriktree is possibly one of the most constraining mons on teambuilding in the metagame - the brute effectiveness of being able to guarantee sleep something only aids Xurkitree's phenomenal power. The problem stands with the fact that not only is there no defensive counterplay, there are also very few which can dispatch of Xurkitree under webs. This leaves it with only one practical revenge killer - Naganadel. What I dislike about this is the fact that you are forced to run it without dangerously switching between checks in hopes of getting Xurkitree to bounce back its Hypnosis with something like Magearna or Zapdos. Whilst I do not believe it is nearly as bannable as Deoxys-Speed, I do believe that after Deoxys-Speed's fate is decided, it may become too lethal for the metagame. Regardless of that - there is counterplay out there, but it is more in control of the player outplaying the opponent more than anything else. Xurkitree is unable to dent much into a more offensive team without Webs and I feel is a centerpiece of the playstyle - most of its effectiveness is the due to the capability of its removal. So whilst I do believe it could be bannable in the future, I think it is too early to tell at the moment if Xurkitree is bannable or not.
 

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