[MnM] Kyogre [QC 3/3] GP [2/2]

Primal Kyogre


Overview:

Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type in Mix and Mega, breaking even special walls like Blissey with Calm Mind. While Primal Kyogre's movepool is not very deep, it has everything it needs to be a solid Water-type. With an astounding base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it. Base 160 Special Defense ensures it will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path. However, base 90 Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to Earthquake and Extreme Speed. Base 90 Speed also leaves the vast majority of sweepers able to outspeed it, and Primal Kyogre has nothing to combat this, unlike Primal Groudon, which is a great answer to Primal Kyogre, and it can function in Primordial Sea with Precipice Blades, meaning Primal Kyogre cannot switch into it safely. Thanks to Desolate Land, Primal Groudon can also switch into Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves, denying it of its most powerful attacks.

All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Water Spout


Moves:

Origin Pulse is an extremely powerful 110-Base Power Water-type STAB attack that is boosted by Primordial Sea. Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, has perfect accuracy in the rain, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water types extremely well. Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragon- and Grass-types. The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and power of its special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey. Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, having a chance to 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock, but weakens as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move.

Set Details:

Maximized Speed and Special Attack allow Primal Kyogre to outrun many uninvested tanks in Mix and Mega, which can be critical when dealing with Speed creep. A Modest nature allows Primal Kyogre's moves to do more damage, while Timid allows it to outspeed neutral-natured Yveltal and Tapu Bulu, along with Timid Blastoisinite Hoopa-U. Another option is a spread of 176 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Speed spread with a Modest nature, which allows Primal Kyogre to maximize its bulk while still outspeeding uninvested base 100s.

Usage Tips:

Take advantage of Primal Kyogre's bulk whenever possible. If you see a Red Orb user and they're going to use a Fire-type attack, Primal Kyogre is a good switch-in. Primal Kyogre can also take Ice- and Steel-type moves aimed at a teammate. When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, fire off powerful attacks in an attempt to predict what will come in, dealing massive damage to it. Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged encounters. Desolate Land negates any Water-type moves, so send out a counter when you're facing a Red Orb user. At below 75% health, Origin Pulse outdamages Water Spout, so you should switch moves if you're about to cross that threshold. As such, you should try to keep Water Spout variants healthy if possible. Origin Pulse can also often outdamage Primal Kyogre's super effective coverage options when not resisted, but this only comes up versus Zapdos and Pinsirite Steel-types. Against slower teams or teams with a dedicated counter, saving Primal Kyogre for the late-game is better than letting it get worn down early, and this also holds true of Calm Mind variants.

Team Options:

Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike. Magearna and other Steel-types appreciate the Fire immunity and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds. Ground types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types and serve as a nice offensive complement to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. Stealth Rock, which can be set up by the aforementioned Ground types, helps Primal Kyogre smash holes in the opposing team even more. Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana answer as well as providing a pivot into its destructive force with Volt Switch. Many pivots such as Tapu Koko, Raikou, and Archeops help Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders without taking unnecessary damage from Skarmory and slower sweepers.

Other Options:

Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel-types. RestTalk is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles and lets it deal with status users. This combination is often paired with Scald to inflict burns and improve Primal Kyogre's staying power. However, this either leaves Primal Kyogre open to Red Orb users or forces it to forego Calm Mind, both of which can be problematic. Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users, and while it is inferior to attacking most of the time, it can make wearing down dedicated special walls and Red Orb users far easier. Calm Mind + Water Spout destroys Blissey much faster than the other Calm Mind sets but loses out on a coverage move, making Primal Kyogre less effective overall. Roar allows Primal Kyogre to deal with opposing setup Pokemon and allows for it to further utilize entry hazards. However, it cannot set up hazards itself and would mainly use this to wear down Red Orb users. Kyogre itself can also hold a Choice Scarf in order to outspeed a significant portion of the metagame, albeit at the cost of stronger attacks.

Checks and Counters:


Red Orb users: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's best counters, as Desolate Land completely negates its Water weakness and it is immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 2HKO Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades, while offensive sets can switch in fewer times but can take out a weakened Primal Kyogre in a single hit. Red Orb users like Togekiss, Venusaur, and Raikou can all handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, giving it chances to support the team, or fire off Dazzling Gleam or even Solar Beam. They can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return to any of them. Raikou in particular resists all common Primal Kyogre moves, and it can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, which gains momentum.

Grass-types: Even though it's a challenge for Grass-types to take an Ice Beam very well due to Primal Kyogre's massive Special Attack, Grass-types also have a type advantage against Primal Kyogre. Ferrothorn in particular can switch into any attack and regain health with Leech Seed or KO with Power Whip. Kartana and Shaymin-S have more difficulty switching in but can deal heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, often outright KOing it.

Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, and Wild Charge will all do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre. In particular, Red Orb Raikou threatens Primal Kyogre, even if Primordial Sea is up, and can switch into Primal Kyogre's common coverage moves.

Blissey: Even though the majority of walls will not take Primal Kyogre's attacks very well, Blissey can take an unboosted Origin Pulse multiple times, and can stall Primal Kyogre out with either Seismic Toss or Toxic. Calm Mind variants will severely hurt Blissey if it doesn't carry Calm Mind, however.
 
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I am sick and tired of that post being the last one visible, so... PRIMAL KYOGRE ANALYSIS!!!
QC: (0/3)


Overview:
-Primal Kyogre has not often got a chance to shine compared to Primal Groudon and even regular Kyogre. However, in a tier filled to the brim with bulky walls, Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type around, even breaking special walls such as Blissey with the right moves.
-With an astounding Base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it.
-Base 150 Special Defense is crazy, and will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path.
-90 base Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to all manner of Earthquakes and Extreme Speeds.


All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD OR 252 SpA/ 4 SpD/ 252 Speed
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Water Spout/Calm Mind


Moves:
-Origin Pulse is a 110 base power Water-type STAB that is sure to put the water pressure on an opponent to find a resistance. Nearly everything else takes a bunch of damage, as it is further boosted by Primordial Sea.
-Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water types extremely well.
-Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragons and Grass types.
-The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, but suffers as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move.
-Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey

Set Details:
-252 Special Attack EVs and a Modest Nature maximizes Primal Kyogre's destructive potential.
-252 HP EVs maximize the bulk of Primal Kyogre, though placing some of these EVs into speed to help get the jump on opposing Primal Groudons or bulky Base 100 Speed Pokémon can help it tear holes easier into offensive teams.
-252 Speed EVs is an alternative that lets Primal Kyogre keep up with plenty of moderately fast threats, including max speed invested Tapu Bulu, and most offensive Primal Groudons.

Usage Tips:
-If you see a Red Orb user, and it's tempted to use a Fire move, bring Primal Kyogre in for a chance at a powerful attack. This is exemplified if the Red Orb user foolishly decides to go for Solar Beam...
-When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, try to stay one step ahead of the opponent in order to nail their attempted switch for massive damage... but only if you feel safe enough doing it.
-Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged enounters.
-Please don't use Origin Pulse or Water Spout in Desolate Land conditions. Just send out a counter to a Red Orb user if the weather ever changes to Desolate Land.

Team Options:
- Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike.
- Magearna and other steel types appreciate the fire immunity, and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds.
- Ground types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types, and serve as a nice offensive compliment to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. These Ground types can also set up Stealth Rocks to help Primal Kyogre better smash holes in the opposing team.
- Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana answer as well as a pivot into its destructive force.
- Many pivots in general help Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders.

Other Options:
-Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel types.
-Rest + Sleep Talk is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles.
-Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users.
-Hidden Power Fire... is here only for me to say that you should never use it. It's a fire type move, and those are negated by Primordial Sea.

Checks and Counters:

- Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic counters, completely negating its water weakness while also being immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 1v1 Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades being a solid 2HKO.

- Red Orb users: Red Orb Togekiss, Venusaur, Raikou, and Roserade all can handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, allowing it chances to support the team, or fire off Dazzling Gleams or even Solar Beams. Both Venusaur and Roserade can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return. Raikou resists everything besides Earthquake, and can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch.

- Blue Orb Ferrothorn: Blue Orb Ferrothorn can take every hit Primal Kyogre can dish out, being a 3HKO at best to Specially Defensive variants, and retaliate with a Power Whip.

- Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in (besides Lanturn, which is a hard counter), Thunderbolt will do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, and strong Wild Charges often just KO Primal Kyogre.

- Grass-types: Even though it's a challenge for them to take an Ice Beam very well, Grass-types are also SE against Primal Kyogre. Out of these, Celebi, Shaymin, and Kartana are the best of the lot, being able to severely damage or KO Primal Kyogre, while also being faster than it.

Primal Kyogre's (finally) ready for the QC team. Work and life got in the way, but it should be okay now!
 
I am sick and tired of that post being the last one visible, so... PRIMAL KYOGRE ANALYSIS!!!
QC: (0/3)


Overview:
-Primal Kyogre has not often got a chance to shine compared to Primal Groudon and even regular Kyogre. However, in a tier filled to the brim with bulky walls, Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type around, even breaking special walls such as Blissey with the right moves.
* Give a mention to its movepool, its not amazingly deep but whats there is good
-With an astounding Base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it.
-Base 150 Special Defense is crazy, and will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path. 160
-90 base Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to all manner of Earthquakes and Extreme Speeds.
* Mention that it has low speed
* Talk about how PDon forces it out
In general, cut some of the fluff




All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD OR 252 SpA/ 4 SpD/ 252 Speed Combine these into 1, an 176 hp / 84 Speed set to outspeed Zapdos with rest in bulk. Mention max spe in set details still
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Water Spout


Moves:
-Origin Pulse is a 110 base power Water-type STAB that is sure to put the water pressure on an opponent to find a resistance. Nearly everything else takes a bunch of damage, as it is further boosted by Primordial Sea.
-Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water types extremely well.
-Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragons and Grass types.
-The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, but suffers as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move. put water spout after calm mind+mention that it lets POgre have a chance to 2hko Blisser after rocks.
-Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey and easily take special attacks

Set Details:
-252 Special Attack EVs and a Modest Nature maximizes Primal Kyogre's destructive potential.
- 84 Speed evs let it outspeed zapdos
* the other evs are placed in hp to...

-252 Speed EVs and a timid nature is an alternative that lets Primal Kyogre keep up with plenty of moderately fast threats, including max speed invested Tapu Bulu, and most offensive Primal Groudons. Outpace defensive support arceus and slow ofensive pokemon such as blastoisonite Hoopa-U

Usage Tips:
-If you see a Red Orb user, and it's tempted to use a Fire move, bring Primal Kyogre in for a chance at a powerful attack. This is exemplified if the Red Orb user foolishly decides to go for Solar Beam... Chage this to "bring Primal Kyogre into Fire and ice attacks to take advantage of its bulk
-When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, try to stay one step ahead of the opponent in order to nail their attempted switch for massive damage... but only if you feel safe enough doing it. Fire off powerful attacks to the switchin
-Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged enounters.
-Please don't use Origin Pulse or Water Spout in Desolate Land conditions. Just send out a counter to a Red Orb user if the weather ever changes to Desolate Land. Desolate land users are immune to water-type attacks, so switch out primal kyogre when facing them
* Some usage tips from when to spout vs pulse
* mention how pulse is stronger than Se coverage unless also resisted
* mention not letting water spout variantas get chipped
* talk about saving it for the late game


Team Options:
- Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike.
- Magearna and other steel types appreciate the fire immunity, and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds or toxics
- Ground types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types, and serve as a nice offensive compliment to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. These Ground types can also set up Stealth Rocks to help Primal Kyogre better smash holes in the opposing team and can check primal groudon.
- Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana and aerilate answer as well as a pivot into its destructive force.
- Many pivots such as Tapu Koko, Pheromosa, and... in general help Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to come in safely on Pokemon it defeats such as... and fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders.
*

Other Options:
-Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel types.
- a defensive set with Rest + Sleep Talk and scald is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles and let it deal with status users.
-Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users but is often inferior to simply attacking
* Calm Mind + Water Spout to destroy blissey but be much less effective otherwise

-Hidden Power Fire... is here only for me to say that you should never use it. It's a fire type move, and those are negated by Primordial Sea.

Checks and Counters:
- Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic counters, completely negates its water weakness immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 1v1 Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades being a solid 2HKO combined into red orb

- Red Orb users: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic counters, as desolate land completely negates its water weakness and it is immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 1v1 Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades being a solid 2HKO while offensive sets can switch in fewer times but can take out weakened Primal Kyogre in a single hit. Red Orb Togekiss, Venusaur, Raikou, and Roserade can all can handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, allowing it chances to support the team, or fire off Dazzling Gleams or even Solar Beams. Both Venusaur and Roserade they can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return. Raikou in particular resists everything commonly run besides Earthquake, and can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch. Gain Momentum with with volt switch

- Blue Orb Ferrothorn: Blue Orb Ferrothorn can take every hit Primal Kyogre can dish out, being a 3HKO at best to Specially Defensive variants, and retaliate with a Power Whip. combined into grass types

- Grass-types:
Even though it's a challenge for them to take an Ice Beam very well, Grass-types are also SE against Primal Kyogre. reword the first line, it's somewhat confusing; something like. Out of these, Celebi, Shaymin, and Kartana are the best of the lot, being able to severely damage or KO Primal Kyogre, while also being faster than it. Ferrothorn in particular can switch in to any attack and regain health with leech seed or KO with Power Whip. Kartana and SHaymin-S have more difficulty switching in, but can deal heavy damage to primal kyogre
I swapped the order of grass and electric, be sure you do as well

- Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in (besides Lanturn, which is a hard counter), Thunderbolt, volt switch, and wild charge will do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, and strong Wild Charges often just KO Primal Kyogre.
Nice work. Go over this carefully to avoid any mistakes, but while this looks like a lot it's mostly wording and comments. The content is almost entirely good already, so consider this 1/3.
 
Nice work. Go over this carefully to avoid any mistakes, but while this looks like a lot it's mostly wording and comments. The content is almost entirely good already, so consider this 1/3.
Implemented. Just a few notes I'd like to bring up here...

- I briefly considered Thunderbolt in Other Options to hit Red Orb Togekiss consistently, but then realized Earthquake is just a better choice for that.

-The reason the Togekiss line was in there in Checks and Counters in the first place was because of a personal experience... A Primal Kyogre won against my Red Orb Togekiss once. It used Calm Mind up to +2 or something, and then started to hit Thunders in the harsh sun, while Togekiss did little back, even with Dazzling Gleam. Even if something is likely to miss, doesn't mean it will. I edited it out, anyways.

-Added Steel type moves in there as well to complete the resistance trio in the analysis. I can remove it if you don't like that mention.

Other than that, I made a few minor grammar changes in addition to those suggestions in order for the analysis to flow better.

E: nice of Kris's post to chase me here. Now let's finish this one off.
 
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nv

The Lost Age
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
... PRIMAL KYOGRE ANALYSIS!!!
QC: (0/3)


Overview:
- Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type around, even breaking special walls such as Blissey with the right moves.
-While Primal Kyogre's movepool is not very deep, it has everything it needs to be a potent threat.
-With an astounding Base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it.
-Base 160 Special Defense is crazy, and will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path.
-90 base Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to all manner of Earthquakes and Extreme Speeds.
-Primal Groudon is a great answer to Primal Kyogre, and can function in Primordial Sea, as well, meaning Primal Kyogre cannot switch into it.
  • I have to say the first point about breaking Blissey is a bit overestimating POgre's power as it has to boost to even start to break it and Blissey can just cripple POgre with status via Toxic or Thunder Wave. 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 220-261 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 63.8% chance to 3HKO I would just mention it is the strongest non-boosted Water-type (since Manaphy can get stronger, quicker due to Tail Glow and being able to hold a stone)
  • I would mention in that last point that PDon can specifically /switch-into/ POgre's STAB with ease due to Desolate Land and that it can abuse its weaker defensive stat.


All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 176 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Speed
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Water Spout


Moves:
-Origin Pulse is a 110 base power Water-type STAB that is sure to put the water pressure on an opponent to find a resistance. Nearly everything else takes a bunch of damage, as it is further boosted by Primordial Sea.
-Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water types extremely well.
-Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragons and Grass types.
-The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey, and effortlessly take special attacks.
-Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, having a shot of 2HKOing Blissey after rocks, but suffers as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move.
  • Mention that Thunder is used because of the permanent rain, giving POgre a much more reliable Electric-type coverage move.
  • Mention that Kyogre cannot beat special walls, such as Blissey, w/o Calm Mind
Set Details:
-252 Special Attack EVs and a Modest Nature maximizes Primal Kyogre's destructive potential.
- 84 Speed EVs allows Primal Kyogre to outspeed Zapdos, and other uninvested base 100s.
- The remaining EVs are placed into HP to maximize the bulk of Primal Kyogre.
-252 Speed EVs and a Timid nature is an alternative that lets Primal Kyogre outpace Blastoisnite Hoopa-U and defensive support Arceus.
  • I would personally run Max Special Attack and Speed with the bulkier spread mentioned here rather than the other way around. This is because POgre needs to outspeed as much as it can and the bulk isn't that necessary due to having 100/160 special bulk anyways and even invested, its base 90 Defense is lacking too much to be "made up for".

Usage Tips:
-If you see a Red Orb user and they're going to use a Fire-type attack, Primal Kyogre is a good switch-in.
-Primal Kyogre can also take Ice- and Steel-type moves aimed at a teammate as well; take advantage of its bulk whenever possible.
-When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, fire off powerful attacks in an attempt to predict what will come in, dealing massive damage to it.
-Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged encounters.
- Desolate Land negates any Water-type moves, so send out a counter when you're facing a Red Orb user.
-Below 75% health, Origin Pulse outdamages Water Spout, and you should switch moves if you're about to cross that threshold. As such, you should try to keep Water Spout variants healthy if possible.
-Origin Pulse can often outdamage Primal Kyogre's SE coverage options when not resisted, but this only comes up versus Zapdos and Pinsirite Steel-types.
- Against slower teams or teams with a dedicated counter, saving Primal Kyogre for the lategame is better than letting it get worn down early.

Team Options:
- Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike.
- Magearna and other steel types appreciate the fire immunity, and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds.
- Ground types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types, and serve as a nice offensive compliment to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. These Ground types can also set up Stealth Rocks to help Primal Kyogre better smash holes in the opposing team.
- Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana answer as well as a pivot into its destructive force.
- Many pivots such as Tapu Koko, Raikou, Pheromosa, and just about anything with U-turn helps Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders without taking unnecessary damage from Skarmory and slower sweepers.
  • I would separate that Ground-types comment about hazards into its own point and mention entry hazards in general as they help soften up a lot of Pokemon for POgre to overpower.

Other Options:
-Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel types.
-Rest + Sleep Talk is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles, and lets it deal with status users. This combination is often paired with Scald to inflict burns, and improve Primal Kyogre's staying power.
-Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users, but is inferior to attacking in most other cases.
-Calm Mind + Water Spout destroys Blissey much faster than the other Calm Mind sets, but loses out on a coverage move, making Primal Kyogre less effective overall.
  • I would give Toxic more of a "positive spin" as it can help cripple PDon and non-Sablenite special walls a lot more than the coverage POgre tends to carry.
  • I would also put RestTalk in a "negative light" as mono-Water is really bad in a meta riddled with Red Orb users.

Checks and Counters:

- Red Orb users: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic counters, as desolate land completely negates its water weakness and it is immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 1v1 Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades being a solid 2HKO while offensive sets can switch in fewer times but can take out weakened Primal Kyogre in a single hit. Red Orb Togekiss, Venusaur, Raikou, can all handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, allowing it chances to support the team, or fire off Dazzling Gleams or even Solar Beams.They can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return to any of them. Raikou in particular resists all common Primal Kyogre moves, and can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, which gains momentum.

- Grass-types: Even though it's a challenge for Grass-types to take an Ice Beam very well due to Primal Kyogre's massive special attack, Grass-types also have a type advantage against Primal Kyogre. Ferrothorn in particular can switch in to any attack and regain health with leech seed or KO with Power Whip. Kartana and SHaymin-S have more difficulty switching in, but can deal heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, often outright KOing it.

- Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, and Wild Charge will all do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre.
  • I would mention Raikou specifically in the Electric-types section since it commonly carries Red Orb and has Electric STAB to still threaten POgre even if it switches into Weather Ball.
This seems ok and I pointed out the obvious stuff, but I haven't ever really used Primal Kyogre enough to give a ton of help. EIther way, changes are in bold.


QC 2/3
 
Thanks nv; I'll edit up my post in one of the next few days. Those are all good suggestions.

E: I'm done with those implementations. They should be good, but check to make sure...
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Overview
-I wouldn't call POgre a potent threat as honestly it really isn't that good.
-Mention it's low speed means it is always behind in such a fast-paced meta.


OK hold up I just noticed that you've received 2 QC checks, why have you been bothering me to QC this? You've received 2 checks (and yes, if you get the stamp that means you get the check, you aren't pending anything and you don't need confirmation, any mistakes are for the other QC members to catch, however you are perfectly capable of double checking on your own; as a sidenote if you REALLY believe you need confirmation of correct implementation, tag the QC member so they receive a notification...). Write this up so I can give you the last check, and please make sure your analysis is ready to QC before PMing me asking for a check.
 
I am still a bit new at this process; I was thinking that nv still needed to confirm my changes.
Anyways, my analysis should be complete with your preliminary changes, so check to see if there's anything else that needs to be changed, and let me know if it's worthy of your stamp.

Oh, right, the readiness for GC checks. Got it. I'll edit the format at the next opportunity. Will retag you when I'm done.
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Moves
-Change "is sure to put the water pressure on an opponent to find a resistance." to "hits really hard when boosted by STAB and Primordial Sea." as it doesn't really make sense, is a shitty pun, and doesn't add anything to the analysis. This also means you can remove the next sentence

Set Details
-Mention something specific that it outspeeds
-Talk about the pros and cons of Timid v Modest (hint: Modest is better bcz stronger)

Usage Tips
-In the last sentence, specify that it's CM variants that are better kept for late game
-Add a sentence saying that Spout variants should be used as a wallbreaker in the early game

Other Options
-Mention ScarfOgre, it's actually pretty good and outspeeds and KOs stuff like Kartana, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Koko.

Checks and Counters
-Mention things that wall POgre like Blissey

Not too much to change, but tag me again before I stamp, just so I can make sure everything was implemented correctly
 
InfernapeTropius11 Okay, that's what I wanted to see. I implemented your changes, though I have one question...

Wouldn't regular Kyogre be different enough to warrant its own analysis? If not, then it can remain here, but if it does, I'll leave it here as is.
 
InfernapeTropius11 Okay, that's what I wanted to see. I implemented your changes, though I have one question...

Wouldn't regular Kyogre be different enough to warrant its own analysis? If not, then it can remain here, but if it does, I'll leave it here as is.
No, regular forms are shown alongside mega forms if they are in battle changes; out of battle changes like rotoms are seperate. The only time they aren't seperated is if multiple form change options (like how zygarde-50 has zygarde-c instead of zygarde-10 having zygarde-c) or when the other form isn't usable (via bans or viability) in that metagame.
 
No, regular forms are shown alongside mega forms if they are in battle changes; out of battle changes like rotoms are seperate. The only time they aren't seperated is if multiple form change options (like how zygarde-50 has zygarde-c instead of zygarde-10 having zygarde-c) or when the other form isn't usable (via bans or viability) in that metagame.
Thanks for the swift reply. That's final then; Scarf Kyogre doesn't deserve its own analysis by definition. That should be all of the questions from me abut this one.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Replace this sentence: Origin Pulse is a 110 base power Water-type STAB that deals a bunch of damage to anything that does not resist it, and is further boosted by Primordial Sea.

With this one: Origin Pulse is an extremely powerful 110 base power Water-type STAB that is boosted by Primordial Sea.

DO THIS EXACTLY cuz you didn't do it last time. The thing about resists needs to go because even most resists can't switch in (you don't need to say this, just replace it exactly with what I wrote by copy/pasting).

Do this for
QC 3/3
 
Replace this sentence: Origin Pulse is a 110 base power Water-type STAB that deals a bunch of damage to anything that does not resist it, and is further boosted by Primordial Sea.

With this one: Origin Pulse is an extremely powerful 110 base power Water-type STAB that is boosted by Primordial Sea.

DO THIS EXACTLY cuz you didn't do it last time. The thing about resists needs to go because even most resists can't switch in (you don't need to say this, just replace it exactly with what I wrote by copy/pasting).

Do this for
QC 3/3
I did this, so now it should be ready for copyediting. I also changed the title to reflect it.
 

Sobi

Banned deucer.
Overview:

Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type in Mix and Mega around, breaking even breaking special walls like Blissey when boosted with Calm Mind, (RC) though Blissey cannot be broken without Calm Mind boosts. While Primal Kyogre's movepool is not very deep, it has everything it needs to be a solid Water-type. With an astounding base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it. Its base 160 Special Defense is crazy, and ensures it will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path. However, (AC) 90 base 90 Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to all manner of Earthquakes and Extreme Speeds. Also, (AC) 90 base 90 Speed leaves the vast majority of sweepers able to outspeed it, and Primal Kyogre has nothing to combat this, unlike its cousin, Primal Groudon. (RP) , (AC) Primal Groudon which is a great answer to Primal Kyogre, and as it can function in Primordial Sea with Precipice Blades, as well, (RC) meaning Primal Kyogre cannot beat it one-on-one switch into it. Likewise, Thanks to Desolate Land, (AC) Primal Groudon can also switch into Primal Kyogre"s Kyogre's Water-type moves, denying it of its most powerful attacks in the harsh sun.

All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Water Spout


Moves:

Origin Pulse is an extremely powerful 110-(AH)Base Power Water-type STAB that is boosted by Primordial Sea. Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, has perfect accuracy in the rain, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water-(AH)types extremely well. Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragons Dragon- and Grass-(AH)types. The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. (RP) : (colon) Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey, and effortlessly take special attacks. (implied by "boost...its special bulk") Calm Mind is also the main avenue Primal Kyogre has to break special walls. Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, having a shot of 2HKOing Blissey after Stealth Rock rocks, but suffers weakens as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move.

Set Details:

Maximized Speed and Special Attack allow for Primal Kyogre to outrun many uninvested tanks in Mix and Mega, which can be critical when dealing with Speed creep. Modest nature allows Primal Kyogre's to hit harder moves to do more damage, while Timid allows it to outspeed neutral-(AH)natured Yveltal and Tapu Bulu, along with Timid Blastoisnite Blastoisinite Hoopa-U. Another option is a spread of 176 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Speed spread with a Modest nature, which allows Primal Kyogre to maximize its bulk, (RC) while still outspeeding uninvested base 100s.

Usage Tips:

Take advantage of Primal Kyogre's bulk whenever possible. If you see a Red Orb user and they're going to use a Fire-type attack, Primal Kyogre is a good switch-in. Primal Kyogre can also take Ice- and Steel-type moves aimed at a teammate as well; take advantage of its bulk whenever possible. When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, fire off powerful attacks in an attempt to predict what will come in, dealing massive damage to it. Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged encounters. Desolate Land negates any Water-type moves, so send out a counter when you're facing a Red Orb user. Below 75% health, Origin Pulse outdamages Water Spout, and so you should switch moves if you're about to cross that threshold. As such, you should try to keep Water Spout variants healthy if possible. Origin Pulse can also often outdamage Primal Kyogre's SE super effective coverage options when not resisted, but this only comes up versus Zapdos and Pinsirite Steel-types. Against slower teams or teams with a dedicated counter, saving Primal Kyogre for the late-(AH)game is better than letting it get worn down early, and this also holds true of Calm Mind variants.

Team Options:

Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike. Magearna and other Steel-(AH)types appreciate the Fire immunity, (RC) and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds. Ground-(AH)types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types, (RC) and serve as a nice offensive compliment complement to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. Stealth Rocks, including those set up from the aforementioned Ground-(AH)types, help Primal Kyogre smash holes in the opposing team even more. Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana answer as well as a pivot into its destructive force. Many pivots such as Tapu Koko, Raikou, and Pheromosa, and just about anything with U-turn helps Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders without taking unnecessary damage from Skarmory and slower sweepers.

Other Options:

Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel types. Rest + Sleep Talk is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles, (RC) and lets it deal with status users. This combination is often paired with Scald to inflict burns, (RC) and improve Primal Kyogre's staying power. However, this you either leaves Primal Kyogre open to Red Orb users, (RC) or foregoes Calm Mind, both of which can be problematic. Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users, and while it is inferior to attacking most of the time, it can make wearing down dedicated special walls and Red Orb users far easier. Calm Mind + Water Spout destroys Blissey much faster than the other Calm Mind sets, (RC) but loses out on a coverage move, making Primal Kyogre less effective overall. Roar allows Primal Kyogre to deal with opposing setup Pokemon, (RC) and allows for it to further use utilize entry hazards. However, it cannot set up hazards itself, (RC) and would mainly use this to wear down Red Orb users. Kyogre itself can also hold a Choice Scarf in order to outspeed a significant portion of the metagame, albeit at the cost of stronger attacks.

Checks and Counters:


Red Orb users: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic counters, as Desolate Land completely negates its Water weakness, (AC) and it is immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 1v1 2HKO Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades being a solid 2HKO while offensive sets can switch in fewer times but can take out weakened Primal Kyogre in a single hit. Red Orb Togekiss, Venusaur, and Raikou, (RC) can all handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, allowing giving it chances to support the team, (RC) or fire off Dazzling Gleams or even Solar Beams. They can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return to any of them. Raikou in particular resists all common Primal Kyogre moves, and it can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, which gains momentum.

Grass-types: Even though it's a challenge for Grass-types to take an Ice Beam very well due to Primal Kyogre's massive Special Attack, Grass-types also have a type advantage against Primal Kyogre. Ferrothorn in particular can switch into any attack and regain health with Leech Seed or KO with Power Whip. Kartana and Shaymin-S have more difficulty switching in, (RC) but can deal heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, often outright KOing it.

Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, and Wild Charge will all do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre. In particular, Red Orb Raikou threatens Primal Kyogre, even if Primordial Sea is up, and can switch into Primal Kyogre's common coverage moves.

Blissey: Even though the majority of walls will not take Primal Kyogre's attacks very well, Blissey can take unboosted Origin Pulses, (RC) and can stall Primal Kyogre out with either Seismic Toss or Toxic. Calm Mind variants will severely hurt Blisseys without Calm Mind, however.
implement carefully and this is GP 1/2
 
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Zephyr Dragon Lord
add remove comments
Overview:

Primal Kyogre finds a solid niche as the strongest Water-type in Mix and Mega, breaking even special walls like Blissey with Calm Mind. While Primal Kyogre's movepool is not very deep, it has everything it needs to be a solid Water-type. With an astounding base 180 Special Attack backed by Primordial Sea and a way to boost it further, Primal Kyogre leaves few ways that stall teams can remain safe versus it. Base 160 Special Defense ensures it will survive almost any unboosted special attack directed in its path. However, base 90 Defense is rather lacking for all of the physical behemoths running around, leaving it vulnerable to Earthquake and Extreme Speed. Also, base Base 90 Speed also leaves the vast majority of sweepers able to outspeed it, and Primal Kyogre has nothing to combat this, unlike Primal Groudon, which is a great answer to Primal Kyogre, and it can function in Primordial Sea with Precipice Blades, meaning Primal Kyogre cannot switch into it safely. Thanks to Desolate Land, Primal Groudon can also switch into Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves, denying it of its most powerful attacks.

All-out Special Attacker

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind / Water Spout


Moves:

Origin Pulse is an extremely powerful 110-Base Power Water-type STAB attack that is boosted by Primordial Sea. Thunder is one of two coverage attacks, has perfect accuracy in the rain, and allows Primal Kyogre to take on opposing Water types extremely well. Ice Beam is the second of Primal Kyogre's coverage moves, and it allows it to take on both Dragon- and Grass-types. The last spot is open to whatever Primal Kyogre needs. Calm Mind allows Primal Kyogre to boost both its special bulk and power of its special attacks to terrifying heights, allowing it to break even Blissey. Water Spout is extremely powerful from full health, having a shot of 2HKOing chance to 2HKO Blissey after Stealth Rock, but weakens as Primal Kyogre gets damaged, which necessitates Origin Pulse as a move.

Set Details:

Maximized Speed and Special Attack allow Primal Kyogre to outrun many uninvested tanks in Mix and Mega, which can be critical when dealing with Speed creep. A Modest nature allows Primal Kyogre's moves to do more damage, while Timid allows it to outspeed neutral-natured Yveltal and Tapu Bulu, along with Timid Blastoisinite Hoopa-U. Another option is a spread of 176 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Speed spread with a Modest nature, which allows Primal Kyogre to maximize its bulk while still outspeeding uninvested base 100s.

Usage Tips:

Take advantage of Primal Kyogre's bulk whenever possible. If you see a Red Orb user and they're going to use a Fire-type attack, Primal Kyogre is a good switch-in. Primal Kyogre can also take Ice- and Steel-type moves aimed at a teammate. When Primal Kyogre is safely switched in, fire off powerful attacks in an attempt to predict what will come in, dealing massive damage to it. Try to send Primal Kyogre in primarily on special attackers if possible; its physical bulk is lacking for prolonged encounters. Desolate Land negates any Water-type moves, so send out a counter when you're facing a Red Orb user. Below At below 75% health, Origin Pulse outdamages Water Spout, so you should switch moves if you're about to cross that threshold. As such, you should try to keep Water Spout variants healthy if possible. Origin Pulse can also often outdamage Primal Kyogre's super effective coverage options when not resisted, but this only comes up versus Zapdos and Pinsirite Steel-types. Against slower teams or teams with a dedicated counter, saving Primal Kyogre for the late-game is better than letting it get worn down early, and this also holds true of Calm Mind variants.

Team Options:

Red Orb users such as Venusaur, Roserade, Raikou, and Primal Groudon can help deal with other Blue Orb threats and physical attackers alike. Magearna and other Steel-types appreciate the fire Fire immunity and can cover for incoming Extreme Speeds. Ground types such as Garchomp and Arceus-Ground help cover Primal Kyogre from Electric-types, (RC) and serve as a nice offensive complement to Primal Kyogre's Water-type moves. Stealth Rock, including those which can be set up from by the aforementioned Ground types Ground-types, help helps Primal Kyogre smash holes in the opposing team even more. Zapdos is a good partner for Primal Kyogre, providing it with a Kartana answer as well as a pivot into its destructive force (what?). Many pivots such as Tapu Koko, Raikou, and Archeops help Primal Kyogre function much better, allowing it to fire off more Origin Pulses and Thunders without taking unnecessary damage from Skarmory and slower sweepers.

Other Options:

Earthquake is an option to deal heavy damage to Red Orb users and specially defensive Steel types Steel-types. Rest + Sleep Talk RestTalk is a combination that keeps Primal Kyogre healthy in longer battles and lets it deal with status users. This combination is often paired with Scald to inflict burns and improve Primal Kyogre's staying power. However, this either leaves Primal Kyogre open to Red Orb users or foregoes forces it to forego Calm Mind, both of which can be problematic. Toxic can wear down Primal Groudon and other Red Orb users, and while it is inferior to attacking most of the time, it can make wearing down dedicated special walls and Red Orb users far easier. Calm Mind + Water Spout destroys Blissey much faster than the other Calm Mind sets but loses out on a coverage move, making Primal Kyogre less effective overall. Roar allows Primal Kyogre to deal with opposing setup Pokémon Pokemon and allows for it to further utilize entry hazards. However, it cannot set up hazards itself and would mainly use this to wear down Red Orb users. Kyogre itself can also hold a Choice Scarf in order to outspeed a significant portion of the metagame, albeit at the cost of stronger attacks.

Checks and Counters:


Red Orb users: Primal Groudon is one of Primal Kyogre's classic (perhaps highlight on how good it is as a counter? saying it's a "classic" counter doesn't really tell the reader much) counters, as Desolate Land completely negates its water Water weakness and it is immune to Thunder. Specially defensive variants easily 2HKO Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades, (AC) while offensive sets can switch in fewer times but can take out a weakened Primal Kyogre in a single hit. Red Orb users like Togekiss, Venusaur, and Raikou (this what you meant?) can all handle Primal Kyogre, provided they have the weather conditions in their favor. While Togekiss is hurt by Thunder, it misses more often, giving it chances to support the team, or fire off Dazzling Gleam or even Solar Beam. (add space)They can also severely hurt Primal Kyogre, while it does little in return to any of them. Raikou in particular resists all common Primal Kyogre moves, and it can strike Primal Kyogre with either Thunderbolt or Volt Switch, which gains momentum.
(remove break)
Grass-types
: Even though it's a challenge for Grass-types to take an Ice Beam very well due to Primal Kyogre's massive Special Attack, Grass-types also have a type advantage against Primal Kyogre. Ferrothorn in particular can switch into any attack and regain health with Leech Seed or KO with Power Whip. Kartana and Shaymin-S have more difficulty switching in but can deal heavy damage to Primal Kyogre, often outright KOing it.

Electric-types: While the majority of Electric-types have trouble switching in, Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, and Wild Charge will all do heavy damage to Primal Kyogre. In particular, Red Orb Raikou threatens Primal Kyogre, even if Primordial Sea is up, and can switch into Primal Kyogre's common coverage moves.

Blissey: Even though the majority of walls will not take Primal Kyogre's attacks very well, Blissey can take an unboosted Origin Pulse multiple times, and can stall Primal Kyogre out with either Seismic Toss or Toxic. Calm Mind variants will severely hurt Blissey without if it doesn't carry (less ambiguous) Calm Mind, however.

GP 1/2
 

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