Metagame np: DOU Stage 0 - Tale as Old as Time | Magearna and Zygarde Quickbanned | Eevium Z Quickbanned

DOU was already being played as if Pokebank was out, so we really didn't gain or lose any Mega options compared to before.
Ah, last I checked I thought it was with the assumption that the stones would be available at the same time too. Granted this was back around Thanksgiving.

I'm still wondering about Megas and TR since the only really slow ones are tanks like Slowbro instead of offensive like Abomasnow or Camerupt. Checkmater brought up Zard-Y, using EVs that'd normally go to speed for defenses, but I'm thinking of just not running a mega at all. Of course, I'm also trying to come up with something that isn't wrecked by Gengar, so maybe I should follow that lead.
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
shoutout to qsns for suggesting I use Assault Vest Tapu Koko; I was building a team around Zard X and I had Koko/Fini on it and he said I should consider Assault Vest on it to make a better switchin to opposing Koko. I cried when I remembered Nature Power is a status move but ended up with this:

Tapu Koko @ Assault Vest
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 40 HP / 176 SpA / 64 SpD / 228 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Sky Drop
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Sky Drop is a super useful move that doesn't always work out, but in lieu of other good options (Dazzling Gleam is terrible without LO although I guess you can fit it in somewhere), it makes for a pretty good filler slot, giving a bulkier Tapu Koko some utility and sorta serving as a weird Protect at times. You can definitely Earthquake with a Lando-T after Koko uses Sky Drop. I know you want to make that play.

Some calcs:
252+ SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (175 BP) vs. 40 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Koko: 246-289 (84.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [Heat Wave used]
4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 123-145 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 40 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Koko in Sun: 157-186 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
---- 176 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Electric Terrain: 296-350 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO [only one roll misses the KO]
252 SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 40 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Koko [in Electric Terrain]: 229-270 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound Extrasensory vs. 40 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Koko in Psychic Terrain: 205-243 (70.4 - 83.5%)

so really I'm mostly just posting the spread, but bulky Electrics are a super useful thing to have and this time the bulky Electric actually resists Electric attacks! whoa!
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
just had a grueling ladder match vs WololoVGC (26 turns >_<). I wanted to share this with you, because I thought it was an interesting match with lots of switching to get the proper board positioning. His Amoonguss and Sub Celesteela were rough to break. I also didn't know his Landorus-T was not scarfed until I lost my Thundurus-T to it's Rock Slide n_n. However, setting up Gravity turned out clutch, as the opponent unintentionally damaged his own Celesteela with Lando-T's EQ. Despite this choke, Wololo could've won if he Double-Edged my Tapu Lele for the kill rather than the spread Hyper Voice, as my Politoed lacked Ice Beam ;x

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-525729434

I am open to any feedback on plays by either side. Or how to make my team better :>
 
Last edited:

Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
could we concider banning hypnosis with psychium z? z-trick room bronzong paired with tapu bulu has very little counterplay. trick room tapu bulu is slower than any other tapu so it will always win the terrain war (not to mention to every team can afford to run koko/fini) giving bronzong about a 80% chance to get a free sleep. thats just absurdly unfair, only way you can deal with that is prevent bronzong / any other setter from setting up the trick room and thats not always possible most of the time. the team style is clearly unhealty for the metagame and it would be really nice if we wouldn't have to deal with that
edit: to be more specific about the bulu vs koko/fini mu, bulu beeing slower means it will get grassy terrain before trick room goes up, when it does neither tapu fini or koko can switch into it.
 
Last edited:

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Z-TR Hypnozong does sound like Gravity Sleep on paper, but in reality it feels more like Amoonguss with TR and inaccurate sleep instead of Rage Powder & Spore. Unlike HypnoGar, HypnoDarkrai, or Whistle Skymin it lacks the offensive pressure to make use of the sleep. Plus it's only one-time use and the effect is removed once it switches out. I don't find it as a problem.
 

Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
well if bronzong can prevent one pokemon from moving everyturn any offensive sweeper will make great use of the oppurtunitys its providing. my opponent used bulu/bronzong/azumarill and got away with it. you can compare z-tr hypnosis to spore only if there wasnt safety goggles (take a look at oras where amoongus was a viable sleep user and how common the item was then) and spore could sleep grass types. the fact that move is 80% is not an argument. i dont want to loose to an unfair strategy 8 out of 10 times oo.
edit: i havnt used this myself i only experienced it used against me, i didnt really want to try it as i dont like risking 80% moves. i thought this is going to be an obvious case but i gues if some people have doubts ill try to collect and post some replays. just please dont be ignorant about this
★Nido-Rus: bronzong is balanced in a way
★Nido-Rus: bc koko/fini are on a ton of teams
★Nido-Rus: as is taunt lele
★Frania: no its not!
★Frania: bulu is on all
★Frania: of bronzongs teams
★Nido-Rus: but yeah
★Nido-Rus: gotta run bulu with zong
★Frania: and the game we just played
★Nido-Rus: and bronzong is honestly really annoying
★Nido-Rus: with the right support
★Frania: ^
★Frania: is a good example
★Nido-Rus: yeah
★Nido-Rus: esp since you need to consider
★Nido-Rus: both levitate and heatproof
★Frania: like the was literally no way i could prevent bronzong from sleeping
★Frania: outside of hax
★Nido-Rus: tru but
★Nido-Rus: you also had no tapu
★Nido-Rus: :^)
★Nido-Rus: but yeah bronzong is really really hard to stop
★Frania: well yea but i shouldnt be forced
★Nido-Rus: the other biggest issue is
★Nido-Rus: even if you send in a tapu
★Frania: to run fini/koko
★Nido-Rus: you can't stop it from clicking hypnosis on flying types/levitate mons
★Frania: ^
★Frania: and bulu just can switch in and out
★Nido-Rus: yeah
★Nido-Rus: vest bulu is
★Nido-Rus: so good at just switching in, taking a hit
★Nido-Rus: and switching back out
★Nido-Rus: since it recovers so much with horn leech
★Frania: yh but you dont even need to take big hits
★Frania: since you sleep your checks with bronzong
---
★Nido-Rus: ye
★Nido-Rus: like
★Nido-Rus: I'm literally running
★Nido-Rus: triple dark
★Nido-Rus: and I won against a team with sylv
★Frania: maybe i couldve played it better
★Nido-Rus: bc bronzong just invalidated it
★Nido-Rus: sending in sylv
★Frania: but yea the moment you set up tr
★Nido-Rus: was basically the same as letting me set up tr
★Frania: the game was over
★Frania: yea i couldnt risk
★Nido-Rus: and the other issue
★Frania: sending in sylv
★Nido-Rus: is that with bronzong clicking hypnosis, it has a much, much easier time setting tr the second time
★Nido-Rus: because you either lose the mons zong clicks hypno on
★Nido-Rus: or you switch them out
★Frania: someone in the thread made an argument for how you just got to stall out the first tr
★Frania: since there is no way theyll set it up two times
★Frania: but like
★Frania: no bronzong check can switch into hypno
★Nido-Rus: it's pretty easy with zong's typing
★Nido-Rus: another issue is
★Nido-Rus: unlike amoong
★Frania: so how are you supposed switch in to prevent the set up
★Nido-Rus: hypno isn't blocked by goggs or grasses
★Frania: yea its only lum
★Nido-Rus: like if it was, it'd be completely fine
★Frania: that isnt viable
★Nido-Rus: you could just switch
★Nido-Rus: to the old gen 6 standard goggs rachi
★Frania: well i still wouldnt like
★Frania: having to dedicate an item
★Frania: for the one mon
★Frania: but at least it would be managable
 
Last edited:

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

Notable moves: Taunt, Substitute

while I can see the frustration, Heatran really shuts that down (as would any other method of stopping the TR setup) and with Zard Y as well as Jirachi being S-rank I really don't see it being quite strong enough to do anything but cheese some wins against unprepared teams
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
Add Roar to that. While niche, it's really clutch to have against TR and set up sweepers. Plus there are many z moves that kill (or at least nearly kill) such as Volcarona, aegislash, hoopa, lando (if you are heatproof zong) to name a few. Z trick room zong is such a cool addition to the new meta; but totally manageable.
 

FloristtheBudew

I'm just tired

Notable moves: Taunt, Substitute

while I can see the frustration, Heatran really shuts that down (as would any other method of stopping the TR setup) and with Zard Y as well as Jirachi being S-rank I really don't see it being quite strong enough to do anything but cheese some wins against unprepared teams
I don't think you guys get that substitute and taunt existed when gravsleep was legal. Nor are those options good counter play if trick room has already been set up. Kinda with the thought it should be something considered suspecting. Bronzong gets Heatproof which would fit very well with Grassy Terrain. Not to mention the core doesn't require you to have Bulu and Zong on the field at all times. You do have a team and an opposing Heatran / Tyranitar fits very well in dealing with the threats you suggested.

Some replays would be a good idea though. If it doesn't have a huge amount of counter play, then some replays would show that.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Well one big difference from gravsleep was that it was applicable to all sleep inducing mons on the team including BS things like mega gengar and skymin and could be set by multiple teammates. This is on 1 mon, can only be "set up" once (obviously can be more than once but in anything but ideal circumstances it's one) and of course Bronzong itself just doesn't hit a lot of mons hard, unlike how the gravsleep abusers could.

I'm not saying ZTR Zong isn't good or whatever. But I'm not ready to call it as broken as GravSleep.
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
HypnoGrav was also a massive ball of pain - the standard team had Mew / Sableye / Darkrai / Mega Gengar / Skymin / Landorus-I, several of which had sleep moves (even Grasswhistle Skymin) and multiple instances of Gravity (Mew, Lando, probably Sableye). Bad Dreams racked up damage over time, Mega Gengar kept sleeping Pokemon from switching out, and Lando-I in Gravity is just fucking terrifying already when half your team isn't asleep. Zong + Bulu doesn't have anywhere near the same pressure as the full HypnoGrav roster, uses a Z-move whose effect is lost if you're forced out, and still has a Hydro Pump's chance of failure (and we've all won and lost games on Hydro Pump before).

Comparing ZTR Bronzong to HypnoGrav is just not an accurate way to look at it.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
The accuracy boost from Gravity was also significantly larger. Gravity confers 5/3x accuracy boost, whereas Z-TR is only 4/3x. So Hypnosis would never miss under Gravity, whereas Hypnosis after Z-TR will miss 20% of the time. I have seen many hypnomisses in people's ladder run with Bronzing, reflecting the inconsistent nature of this strategy.
 
I would just like to say that I played with this for ~50 matches now and never found the accuracy boosted hypnosis to be reliably accurate, in fact a large amount of the time I ended up missing or unable to use hypnosis because of the effects of fairy or electric terrain. While it is definitely worth running and very threatening to unprepared teams, it is in no way broken or unhealthy.
 

Fran

formerly Frania
is a Tiering Contributor
so this is the team i made to test the how ztr bronzong does in practice. and its as stupid as it was expeced it to be. it wins many match ups just from team preview, in worse case scenarios when your opponent manages to KO your bronzong you should be left in good enough sweep with azumarill/rest of your trick room core. hopefully the team will get some usage during the doubles ladder tour and so we can prove why this silly thing deserves at least a suspect.

Kangaskhan @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: xxx
xxx Nature
- Fake Out
- Seismic Toss
- Protect
- Disable

Bronzong @ Psychium Z
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: xxx
xxx Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Hypnosis
- Trick Room
- Protect

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: xxx
xxx Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Nature's Madness

Hoopa-Unbound @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: xxx
xxx Nature
IVs: 20 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Trick Room
- Protect

Scrafty @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: xxx
xxx Nature
- Fake Out
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
- Stone Edge

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Protect

i tried to save only good matches where neither side got lucky / misplayed badly so i think this is a fair representation of how problematic the team can really be.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-527048959
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-526774474
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-527525813
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-527560295
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-527580820
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528125628
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528185440
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528200910
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528200729
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528534310
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-528540982

edit(Bughouse): i explained it in my first post so i hope its pretty clear that bulu can always force the grassy terrain giving broznong free sleep. honestly i havnt played any good games against koko/fini so i didnt bother saving replays. also id be very interested if you could expland on the other viable pokemon / teamstyles that bronzong would be ineffective against. i experimented with this team quite a lot and i think i have a pretty good idea of how effective it can be in most match ups. and its not easly checkable, you cant really prepare your team against it unless you flatout counterteam trick room. so its not like i purposely decided to not share replays of any bad match ups i just havnt encountered any oo.
edit2:i added heatran/diancie to the team over azumarill/scrafty and got pretty amazing results getting the 2nd spot during the dlt (unfortunetly didnt have the time last day to ladder for rank 1), and what i found that the kang-hoopa trick room is a pretty solid playstyle on its own, while bronzong is what pushes it over the edge, often winning games on its own or breaking big holes in opposing team to the point where the rest should be able to clean up. its an unfair advantige where the trick room team gets the mon that requires much more attention than anything else. its not just a case of bronzong literally winning games on its own but the team support it provides (via sleeping) makes the z-tr user far more likely to win most match ups.
 
Last edited:

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
These replays bring more attention to Azumarill's OP factor than Bronzong's ability to set up TR and sleep imo. It only takes 1 free turn for Azumarill to transform into a death machine. Just comes to show that it doesn't need a perfect support like Jirachi to make Azumarill stupidly good.

Croven also just defeated Lolk in a ssnl match with Azumarill: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-530013345
 

Matame

New Rules
These replays bring more attention to Azumarill's OP factor than Bronzong's ability to set up TR and sleep imo. It only takes 1 free turn for Azumarill to transform into a death machine. Just comes to show that it doesn't need a perfect support like Jirachi to make Azumarill stupidly good.

Croven also just defeated Lolk in a ssnl match with Azumarill: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-530013345
I made a variation of this team without azu (which you can check out here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...buildin-bronzong.3587522/page-10#post-7224394) for dlt and it was still consistent as hell. Honestly only weakness I find with bronzong is that even after the acc boosts hypnosis isn't 100% accuracy which can end up being annoying every now and then. Zongernwith heatproof/grassy terrain is stupid fat and only rly drops to like Hoopa or Ground Z moves. All of its weaknesses are easier to cover than you'd think: stuff like bulu negating electric terrain, hoopa destroying mons with substitute, z trick room bypassing taunt. Bronzing is just really good at temporarily shutting threats down so you can tear their team apart with powerful attackers. It forces you to end up having to sack threats that may have been helpful later on in the game ( even more so when paired with hoopa which makes stalling out trick room with tect impossible) and worst case scenario you struggle to get trick room up later but still have a chance with a few attackers left while half of their team is asleep. It's insanely difficult to play around and when played well is incredibly consistent even to the point where I'd say it's broken.

I haven't saved any replays bc I wasn't rly planning on posting but I'll see if I can get some on an alt over the next few days.
 
I made a variation of this team without azu (which you can check out here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...buildin-bronzong.3587522/page-10#post-7224394) for dlt and it was still consistent as hell. Honestly only weakness I find with bronzong is that even after the acc boosts hypnosis isn't 100% accuracy which can end up being annoying every now and then. Zongernwith heatproof/grassy terrain is stupid fat and only rly drops to like Hoopa or Ground Z moves. All of its weaknesses are easier to cover than you'd think: stuff like bulu negating electric terrain, hoopa destroying mons with substitute, z trick room bypassing taunt. Bronzing is just really good at temporarily shutting threats down so you can tear their team apart with powerful attackers. It forces you to end up having to sack threats that may have been helpful later on in the game ( even more so when paired with hoopa which makes stalling out trick room with tect impossible) and worst case scenario you struggle to get trick room up later but still have a chance with a few attackers left while half of their team is asleep. It's insanely difficult to play around and when played well is incredibly consistent even to the point where I'd say it's broken.

I haven't saved any replays bc I wasn't rly planning on posting but I'll see if I can get some on an alt over the next few days.
I didn't build one myself but I also laddered a bit with zong trick room and if anything its Hoopa that makes the team so reliable. Bronzong is able to be worn down, you can stall out the trick room turns and pivoting into the right terrain +intimidate can stall out zong's usefulness. Hoopa you can't stall out under TR, it breaks wide guard, bypasses subs bypasses protect, you can bypass sash users with a partner. In my experience both laddering and in tournaments with this kind of team, its hoopa that makes it so deadly, not 80% accurate sleep.
 
I think its time to talk about a tapu lele suspect. The effect that lele has on getting TR is already well known, as the life orb psychic moonblast taunt set basically requires a mental herb or redirection, which while not really that unusual of options, neither of which were really common on TR last generation. Lele has fundamentally changed the way TR gets set up. Hoopa, metagross and deoxys are much more threatening this generation. Deoxys specifically has really taken off in terms of viability, and I now no longer consider adamant scarf lando a viable option because of all of the deoxys running around.

But what really seals it in my mind is this calc:
252+ SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 110-131 (33.9 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

One of the premier bulky pokemon, who also happens to be a psychic resist, can't really be considered that considered that good of a switchin considering its a 3HKO. This means that if you are wanting something that can switchin on lele more than once that isnt a dark type that gets destroyed by moonblast, you have to look at a quad psychic resist.

Scarf outspeeds scarf lando and nearly ohkos it. Specs OHKOs zard. I don't really think that there is any one particular aspect of lele that isnt unmanageable, but the total package is a defining force in the meta game and ridiculously centralizing.
 

DaAwesomeDude1

waiting for a moment
is a Top Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
DPL Champion
Maybe back in 2016, I'd be supportive of a lele suspect, but the meta has settled down now and lele really isn't suspect worthy anymore imo.

Lele changing the way tr gets set up is just an example of meta adaptation. As new threats comes out or new sets become more popular, the meta adapts to it. There's a difference between healthy adaptation and unhealthy. Running roar heatran to stop evoboost eevee is an example of unhealthy. TR choosing more offensive setters like hoopa as opposed to passive ones that don't offer any immediate benefits like cresselia or using jolly scarf lando is again healthy meta adaptation. You're making taunt lele out to be unstoppable for tr, there are ways to bypass lele without running mental herb. Z TR bronzong is immune to taunt, jirachi and offensive setters like Hoopa puts the lele user in a situation that benefits the opponent more. If lele taunts but the opp goes for an attack, then lele takes a bunch of damage. If lele gets it right, cool, you still force lele out next turn anyways cause jirachi/hoopa still threatens it. You just find a time where lele isn't out and set up TR, which isn't really hard to do.

A big problem about lele + deoxys is that it really only fits under hyper offense. This makes it so that it folds under trick room and pretty much most speed control (especially tr with hoopa-u).

Yes, your calc shows that lele hits really hard, but so does charizard y. At that point, you just revenge kill it.

Choiced lele isn't unbeatable, each set gains an advantage while losing another. Scarf lele trades fire power for speed which makes it so that your steel can switch in a lot better. Yes lele, which is an already strong enough Pokémon, ohkos charizard, which is not a psychic resist, when it's holding specs. Specs gets crazy fire power but loses out on the ability to switch moves and is susceptible to getting revenge killed. Psych z gets a one time nuke but loses out on overall power.

Don't get me wrong, I think lele is really good but it's not suspect worthy. It's more manageable than gardevoir in oras. Lele is much easier to scout it's set than gradevoir which, unlike lele, if you predict wrong can cost you the game (fast encore, 3 attacks, trick room). Lele doesn't have gardevoir's utility, it just hits really hard.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Here are a list of mons I believe as noteworthy suspects:

1. Jirachi - With the inclusion of Tapus and Salamence it has gotten so much better, and is definitely a cut above the other redirectors
2. Azumarill - too easy and too powerful of a win con. Doesn't need Jirachi to set up and take out 2+ mons. Azumarill can be totally useless in the hands of a worse player, but when both players are equally strong, I believe the person with Azumarill has an advantage. Azumarill also make the game more match-up based imo, punishing players who utilize slower-paced, bulkier teams compared to those with a more offensive, faster-paced build.
3. Hoopa-U / hyperspace moves - I think hyperspace moves are broken by principle. A move with solid base power with the ability to remove protection is absurd if you think about it. Hoopa-U with speed control (whether it be Trick Room or Tailwind) can be an uncontrollable wrecking ball alongside another offensive partner. Whether we suspect the hyperspace moves or Hoopa-U itself is up for discussion
4. Tapu Lele - If Jirachi ends up going, then I can definitely see Tapu Lele becoming problematic. Lele + Deoxys-A would dominate even more with one of its major counters removed. Psychic + Fire is such a lethal offensive combination that can be hard to stop without a select few mons on your teams. Also forces teams to run other Tapus to counteract Lele's Terrain moreso than other tapus. I think Tapu Lele is actually better than Gardevoir now, due to the Pixilate nerf, and the fact that Tapu Lele can hold different items to alter its power or speed, making it a lot more unpredictable
 

GenOne

DOU main. GMT-7. PS!: GenOne
is a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Here are a list of mons I believe as noteworthy suspects:

1. Jirachi - With the inclusion of Tapus and Salamence it has gotten so much better, and is definitely a cut above the other redirectors
2. Azumarill - too easy and too powerful of a win con. Doesn't need Jirachi to set up and take out 2+ mons. Azumarill can be totally useless in the hands of a worse player, but when both players are equally strong, I believe the person with Azumarill has an advantage. Azumarill also make the game more match-up based imo, punishing players who utilize slower-paced, bulkier teams compared to those with a more offensive, faster-paced build.
3. Hoopa-U / hyperspace moves - I think hyperspace moves are broken by principle. A move with solid base power with the ability to remove protection is absurd if you think about it. Hoopa-U with speed control (whether it be Trick Room or Tailwind) can be an uncontrollable wrecking ball alongside another offensive partner. Whether we suspect the hyperspace moves or Hoopa-U itself is up for discussion
4. Tapu Lele - If Jirachi ends up going, then I can definitely see Tapu Lele becoming problematic. Lele + Deoxys-A would dominate even more with one of its major counters removed. Psychic + Fire is such a lethal offensive combination that can be hard to stop without a select few mons on your teams. Also forces teams to run other Tapus to counteract Lele's Terrain moreso than other tapus. I think Tapu Lele is actually better than Gardevoir now, due to the Pixilate nerf, and the fact that Tapu Lele can hold different items to alter its power or speed, making it a lot more unpredictable
As much as I get why people would support a Rachi, Hoopa or Lele ban, I think removing any of those would do more harm than good and cause a chain reaction of subsequent bans. I'm pretty indifferent to whether Azu is hypothetically banned, but in the current meta I think it's balanced. I just urge people to question if the mons they accuse of being broken really are, because once we start banning these mons we're probably not going to stop suspecting things for a while.

Jirachi: If there is a good reason to ban it, it's because it can be abused to give mons like Azu and DD Mence a free setup. It also isn't the glue mon it was in ORAS, since sleep redirection isn't really relevant anymore. However, banning Rachi probably will trigger a chain reaction where Lele might warrant a suspect. DAD1's post above pretty much summarizes my thoughts on why Lele is fine right now, but like you said Pocket Lele + Deo-A would be a lot tougher to deal with. Of course, Trick Room would still counteract Lele + Deo just fine, and there are other good steels like Celesteela, Aegislash and Metagross-Mega that can stand up to psyspam. In my mind, people would still be split on whether Lele was broke, but I think more people would be swayed in favour of a Lele ban if Rachi was gone. Banning Lele would further trigger a chain reaction, which I'll get to a bit further below.

Azumarill: Again, I'm pretty indifferent here. Some people love it, some people hate it. Banning it won't trigger any chain reactions, we'll just stop seeing bunnies on the battlefield. Fwiw, it could become a lot tougher to deal with if we ban Lele - again I'll get to that a bit further down.

Hoopa-U / Hyperspace Moves: Now that we're in a more specially-oriented meta, Hoopa-U is shining a lot more. QSNS's new bulk spread for Hoopa also makes it a lot thornier to take down, wheras in ORAS iirc people mostly used Life Orb and maybe Sash. It is also (aside from Kyurem-Black and some Megas) the only 700 BST mon in doubles that hasn't been deemed an Uber, and hey maybe it's time to revisit that. However, Hoopa also keeps a lot of things balanced in DOU that would otherwise be broken. First of all let's talk about Trick Room. Aside from Jirachi, Trick Room is the only other real thing keeping psyspam hyper offense in check. The problem with Trick Room on its own, however, is that 4 turns under Trick Room are really only 2 when your opponent simply spams protect to stall out turns. Hoopa fixes that by being able to penetrate Protect, and while some people view that as what makes Hoopa broke it's also a force that makes Trick Room viable. Tbh I'm not sure if I've seen a decent Trick Room team this gen that didn't have Hoopa on it. Of course, Hoopa does enable Hypnozong to be more threatening to the point that some people want Zonger banned, but I think Hoopa holds together more of the meta than it breaks. In the first months of this meta DOU was pretty HO-oriented until people realized how good Hoopa-U and Trick Room could be.

Tapu Lele: As I mentioned above, banning Rachi could prompt a chain reaction where more people would want to suspect Lele. In some ways, banning Lele wouldn't be that bad for the meta...the meta would just experience a paradigm shift where priority moves once again rule. Sure, Kang got nerfed a bit and Talonflame isn't going to be relevant anymore, but otherwise the meta would be ORAS again but with terrain wars and a few new mons. If you liked ORAS better, this might be a step in the right direction. If you thought ORAS was stale by the end of it, banning Lele is the quickest way to make SM feel stale all over again. However, banning Lele would start another big chain reaction where we once again would have to look at banning things. Azumarill would once again become virtually unstoppable after it sets up, and if people already want it banned in SM I guarantee it's only going to become more controversial without Lele in the meta. Prankster Thundurus would also become relevant again, and we'd be back to seeing teams that spam T-Wave and Swagger, which means we'd have to revisit if Swagger warrants a ban. Really, THALK as a whole would become a prominant team style again, except for maybe Amoonguss which would still suffer because of Koko and Fini.
 
Here are a list of mons I believe as noteworthy suspects:

1. Jirachi - With the inclusion of Tapus and Salamence it has gotten so much better, and is definitely a cut above the other redirectors
2. Azumarill - too easy and too powerful of a win con. Doesn't need Jirachi to set up and take out 2+ mons. Azumarill can be totally useless in the hands of a worse player, but when both players are equally strong, I believe the person with Azumarill has an advantage. Azumarill also make the game more match-up based imo, punishing players who utilize slower-paced, bulkier teams compared to those with a more offensive, faster-paced build.
3. Hoopa-U / hyperspace moves - I think hyperspace moves are broken by principle. A move with solid base power with the ability to remove protection is absurd if you think about it. Hoopa-U with speed control (whether it be Trick Room or Tailwind) can be an uncontrollable wrecking ball alongside another offensive partner. Whether we suspect the hyperspace moves or Hoopa-U itself is up for discussion
4. Tapu Lele - If Jirachi ends up going, then I can definitely see Tapu Lele becoming problematic. Lele + Deoxys-A would dominate even more with one of its major counters removed. Psychic + Fire is such a lethal offensive combination that can be hard to stop without a select few mons on your teams. Also forces teams to run other Tapus to counteract Lele's Terrain moreso than other tapus. I think Tapu Lele is actually better than Gardevoir now, due to the Pixilate nerf, and the fact that Tapu Lele can hold different items to alter its power or speed.
It's about time someone made a noteworthy list.

Anyways, Lele's ban will make "Psychic Spam" no more and bring back priority moves. (That is obvious.) Whether you want to see this as a Pro or Con, that is completely up to you. Nevertheless, I'm sure that Mega Metagross, Hoopa-U, and Deoxys-A will still be used. The problem is that players may be deterred from using them separately because they are so used to playing these mons with Lele. In other words, players may think that these mons are "not as strong anymore" and may simply toss them aside. What I'm trying to say is that you certainly don't need Lele to use these mons, so don't vote "no ban" for the sake of just saving "Psychic Spam". Now, where I stand in this issue is that Lele by itself is not that threatening, but its partners (minus Mega Metagross) certainly are, and its partners are still powerful without it.

For the matter of AzuRachi, I have two viewpoints about it. First of all, Jirachi is an insanely stupid support. Like sure, you can use spread moves to bypass it, but Jirachi has three methods of speed control. (Icy Wind cannot be taunted, Trick Room is long-term, and Thunder Wave is permanent.) And although it is obvious in some teams on what it plans to use, it is hard to prevent what it has in store. You must either focus in eliminating it or its partner. Also, allowing Jirachi to use speed control give it the opportunity to flinch your mons to death. Another obvious trait of Jirachi is that its stats and typing is ridiculous. If you want to OHKO it, you must have a dedicated killer (ex. Hoopa-U, Charizard-Mega-Y, or some Z-move) or Double target it with super effective moves. And even then, it can simply use Protect and have its partner attack instead. It's truly a frustrating mon to deal with. For the matter of Azu, quick ban it if Lele is banned. One opportunity means a win con, and Frania did a good job proving that without Jirachi.

Edit: You don't need Jirachi to check Psychic Spam. There are other ways.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top