np: Doubles OU Stage 5 - Little Bunny Foo Foo | Gravity + Sleep Ban will Allow Spore!

Idyll

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Welcome to the fifth suspect test for ORAS Doubles OU! For the next two weeks, we'll be looking at Azumarill. Azumarill is a very threatening attacker in the DOU metagame. With Belly Drum, priority in Aqua Jet, and a Huge Power-boosted Attack stat that gives it power on par with Groudon's, Azumarill has the ability to end games on its own. A single positioning advantage or a redirector next to it is usually all it takes for Azumarill to become dangerous, making it a fearsome foe. Its bulk and typing is also notable as both are also to owe for its ability to set up on a number of threats in the metagame with ease. Notorious since XY, Azumarill is finally getting judged on whether it should remain in the tier or not.

The test will run for two weeks. Like usual, there will be battling requirements to qualify for voting. Battling requirements will consist of ladder requirements. There will be NO posting requirement for this suspect; still, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.

Remember to keep an open mind in this suspect! Please respect the opinions of others; remember, just because you believe in your side doesn't mean the other is wrong!

Azumarill will be allowed on the suspect ladder.

The B value for this suspect is 14.5. One will need to achieve a COIL of 2600 to qualify. In addition, one will also be required to have a minimum of 77 GXE with a game limit of 60 maximum.

N=14.5/log2(40*GXE/2600)

These numbers were crunched by our local Doubles Magician kamikaze and not me because I suck at math lol!

Tagging The Immortal for the ladder. Credits to the community for the song :)!

Remember to have fun ;0
 

Fran

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with azu you need to build a whole team around that, since (assuming you oppoenent plays correctly) there should be no way youre getting of a belly drum and do anything without fake out and redirection, so its fairy safe to call azu teams a playstyle. i loved azumarill for laddering, the games end very fast, most of the time i didt need much thinking into it and it gets an extra good match up againts bad trick room teams, or wierd ladder teams in general (like mono-fire). that beiing said i dont think the azu teams get much good match ups outside of that. obv sun is your worse match up and if you face something like bulky zard + zapdos you should loose. vs kang there is many mons that will take advantage of you trying to set up the bd, if youre gonna be focusing on that heatran, aegislash or kyurem will probably get up a substitute, and you cant really prevent that. getting of the bd will always give your opponent a turn that he can turn into his advantige, if youll try to play around that you simply wont get it off at all. not to mention things like volcanion that absultly shut down azumarill. keep in mind i assume the azumarill team oppoenent is a competent player that will make rather correct plays. vs gardevoir you have the same problems only worse since hyper voice + helmet amoongus or jirachi is gonna be a huge fucking problem. again if you send your whole game trying to play around gard + other threats you just wont be getting of the bd. the whole time youre at +0 with azu its almost a 1v2 situation assuming you wouldnt like risking yourwincon your whole team is based around. i thing azumarill team can win in all of these match ups since with every pokemon you should be able to play around your counters, that beiing said you dont carry any advantige going into the game therefore i dont see any reason to ban azumarill
 
This pokemon getting a suspect does not surprise me. After the Jirachi Suspect, its logical that this pokemon is looked at (Seeing as Jirachi's suspect was partially because it helped pokemon like Azumarill succeed while both complimenting each others typings), and for good reason. This rabbit is a powerhouse and has great coverage between just a few moves to help beat the other team to a pulp. Aqua Jet helps alleviate it's speed issues, Play Rough is it's strongest STAB that can massacre anything thats not a fat Poison/Steel type, or it can run Knock Off instead to beat those fat checks (Looking at you Jirachi). Its typing and bulk only help it further become a threat and without a heavy hitter or some prior chip, it can be a pain to take down (especially next to redirection). It also has a nice niche of helping to alleviate some team weakness to Trick Room and some Speed Control.

Now despite all of that, it has pretty big drawbacks. While it can punch holes through an entire team, it still needs to set up that Belly Drum to do so. It's common Redirector Partner Jirachi, is super weak to spread moves like Earthquake and Heat Wave (Zard-Y + Lando-T cores are super deadly and common), and one of those Azumaril doesnt appreciate taking since it needs to be healthy to get off the BD and have some use on the team. Its common partner (Jirachi) is also a big momentum stopper to Azumarill when it is an opponent and Azu isnt carrying Knock Off. There are other big threats that stop Azumarill if they aren't gotten rid of before hand; Mega-Venusaur, Volcanion, Zapdos, Amoonguss, Mega-Gyarados (if Azu is running Knock Off/Aqua Jet) just to name a few. Zard-Y is a soft check as well just because of the sun and even after a BD Azumarill cant OHKO Zard-Y with Aqua Jet.

I do think this Pokemon is healthy for the meta though. It helps to keep high usage Pokemon in check, like Lando-T, Heatran as well as most other medium usage Pokemon through just sheer damage. With Azumarill gone the meta gets worse as we have one less solid check to Lando-T (#1 usage mon lol) and fire types and would have to resort to a gimmick scarf Water Pokemon, or going back to full on weather wars to abuse Rain to restrain the things that Azumarill keeps under control.

All in all, this pokemon is strong but doesn't deserve the ban. It's very limited on what coverage moves it can run since the Belly Drum and Protect are required moves, Sun really helps soften up its damage and Zard-Y is a big threat. The release of Volcanion further increases the available coverage against Azumarill. It's a solid Pokemon, and deserves the respect of staying in DOU as a common place threat.
 
Man this suspect has been tough for me. On one hand, you have a duo of AzuRachi(both of which have now been suspected) which is completely annoying to face due to the stupid good redirection abilities and support of Jirachi. Meanwhile, you have Azumarill which can easily set up with that support and then proceed to kill mons off one at a time, meanwhile mons that could beat rachi with Heat Wave or Earthquake just get decimated by +6 Aqua Jet. That's disgustingly ridiculous and one of the answers to AzuRachi would be Amoonguss if Safety Goggles support wasn't there. The duo is pretty cancer to go up against, but we all know there are ways to get around it.

These issues for AzuRachi come up not really against one particular mon, but rather against mons in tandem. For one, Thundurus in tandem with wallbreakers that can straight up demolish Azu remains one of the most annoying things for AzuRachi. Taunt effectively screwing over Azumarill's redirection, and if there's Thundurus and something like Zard Y on the field, Azu has to pick its poison essentially. Thundurus smacks it with TBolt and SolarBeam from Zard Y is incredibly threatening. Another thing is Azu frankly keeps some mons in check. It's one of the few mons that can outpace(Aqua Jet) and OHKO scarf Landorus, the other main one being Scarf Kyu B. I feel its incredibly valuable with just how well it keeps these top tier mons in check, so if Azu were to leave the tier, it would quite honestly pain to see a form of nuking the entire meta game go.

Do I think it needs to go? If I'm being honest, its a problem in the meta game but something that can control things at the same time. If Azu does leave, we essentially now have no AzuRachi, which is a pretty centralizing duo on its own. Honestly, I'll need more games on the ladder to truly decided weather I want Azumarill to go or not, but from the games I've played in tours(got swept by Azu in Doubles Open) and the experience on the ladder, I'm slightly leaning towards ban at this point.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place

We are also NOT doing any suspect tours this time.
D=

Some initial thoughts to make this not a one liner

A lot of people are going to be crying out that Azumarill needs a team built around it and that makes it less OP etc etc. I disagree with this heavily. You need one mon tops to pair with it, and that mon is usually Jirachi. Teams usually already tend to have Fake Outers, ways to deal with weather etc etc. Its not like these are unique to Azu teams only. Teams that are built around an idea tend to have mons that are usually not seen in other teams such as Venu in sun teams.

Now with that being said, I still do think that Azu is quite strong in the current meta. It is ridiculously hard to stop once it gets going, and can demolish entire unprepared teams. Very few mons can deal with it and Azurachi is literally the meta. Will be interesting to see how this suspect will go, but chances are its being banned.
 

GenOne

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AzuRachi is tough to beat once it's set up, but first you have to get both Azumarill and Jirachi onto the field.

You could lead with AzuRachi but opposing leads will typically have Fake Out and/or spread moves. Also, shout out to sun teams which make Azu's +4 Aqua Jet a manageable +2.

More often than not you're going to have to set Azu up mid way through the battle, and good opponents won't make it easy to get both Azu and Rachi on the field. You need to be good at making reads and predictions to set up AzuRachi against a good player. That's what I think is kind of neat about Azumarill -- it puts a lot of mental pressure on both players to make good reads.

There's also enough decent AzuRachi checks and switchins in the meta that you don't autolose just because Azumarill sets up.
 
Heavy Procrastinating writing a paper rn, because I think it's worth tackling some of the perspectives people have immediately used for not wanting to ban azumarill.

I'm not going to go quote posts, and start reviewing points individually, but there seems to be a general consensus which completely ignores terms in pokemon known as "positioning" and "win conditions".
Simply put, Azumarill, even when in the back of a team, forces opponents to make certain sub optimal plays, such as having to lead always for azumarill.
Furthermore, when one has led, and not seen Azumarill, they have to be super careful not to lose all of their resources into protecting their team from the likely leads of kang / lando / heatran / thundurus / sleep mon/s / speed control, in order to protect the initial azumarill checks that they were forced to lead with.

Generally, people aren't taking into account, that the azumarill player is allowed to think too! They know how you intend to stop their set up, and as a result will just play for a free turn to get azumarill in, as I illustrated in some VR tiering posts. even when teams have all these checks, such as amoongus / bulky zard + zapdos, it's super important to note that the azumarill team has the benefit often of fake out support and redirection to just dodge these problems.

In terms of win conditions, with azumarill in the back, the opponent has to literally play the WHOLE GAME, with the intention of not letting azumarill get in for free, or the game is over, I'm not convinced this is healthy for the tier whatsoever.

As a side note, calling a pokemon linear is an argument which I personally think is stupid and shouldnt be featured in deciding whether to ban azumarill. Everyone knows what azumarill intends to do, and yet its success is still insane, as aforementioned, this is largely due to the fact that simply knowing what something does, doesnt mean you can stop it.

Finally we stand where we were a few months ago with the Jirachi suspect test, and this time I ask you, which tier do you think would make for a better playing and teambuilding experience, A doubles OU with or without azumarill?
 
Recently, I've researched a bit on how to counter AzuRachi counters. "Haze" Volcanion, which I use often in the Singles Meta, and "Snatch" Mons have proven to be very effective. To be more specific, "Haze" eliminates all stat changes in the field, and "Snatch" steals the stats boost of any other Mons in the field. Take note that "Snatch" is not effected by Follow Me, leaving dumb-founded opponents with an Azu that just lost its HP for nothing. With this, I'm just saying that there are ways to bypass Rachi in order to make Azu worthless. And yes, I'm aware that they may seem as unusual choices, but they are definitely rewarding to use against an AzuRachi team.

(Sources: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Follow_Me_(move))

Before you rant about "why the heck would I even use that in a normal matchup", test it out in this non-AzuRachi suspect test. Seriously, where are the AzuRachi?

Tagging n1n1 and GenOneRaisedGenY just in case they are interested.
 
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I'd be interested in seeing pro-ban users' thoughts on what makes Azumarill more broken than Kangaskhan. I haven't been in touch with the meta lately, but to me it looks like you could replace "Azumarill" in all of these arguments with "Kangaskhan" and "+6 Aqua Jet" with "+2 Return/Sucker Punch" and be even more valid. (I'm not trying to sound snarky. I actually want to see serious answers and see if they influence my decision in any way.)

Also Follow Me/Fake Out support applies equally to both mons so I don't think it should be a factor in Azumarill's banning when it wasn't enough to ban Mega Kangaskhan (to clarify I don't think Kang is broken either).
 

kamikaze

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I just want to explain a little bit more of why we decided to suspect azu, since a lot of people were wondering what changed all of a sudden.

Azumarill has always been something annoying to deal with like Dawg mentioned above, merely for the fact that you want to prevent it from getting a belly drum directly from team preview. But it was never something I considered broken or warranted a suspect until recently.

The meta has shifted to the point where a really common type triangle I have noticed come up when both battling and building has been between Fairies, Fires, and Dragons.
Fires beat Fairies, Dragons beat Fires, and Fairies beat Dragons. At least thats the traditional look on it (yes there are exceptions here and there)
Because of the increase in viability of both Dragons and Fires, Azumarill has indirectly been buffed since a lot of these pokemon are in fact setup bait for Azumarill to freely Belly Drum upon while redirection makes it much easier in some bad situations. A lot of teams trying to function in the metagame by adding pokemon to blanket check a lot of threats within the tier unfortunately have left themselves slightly more open to Azumarill as a result.

The plethora of Mega Kang and Mega Garde teams in particular that I have seen growing in popularity often leaves themselves open to be torn apart by a late game azumarill if its not constantly kept in check from getting off a Belly Drum. I do however think there are some things people simply need to explore more such as using Mega Charizard Y, which while ohko'ed by aqua jet is an amazing offensive powerhouse that tears through a lot of teams which currently are lacking in good fire resists besides other fire or dragon types, as well as its ability to obviously halve aqua jet damage for its teammates.
 

GenOne

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Recently, I've researched a bit on how to counter AzuRachi counters. "Haze" Volcanion, which I use often in the Singles Meta, and "Snatch" Mons have proven to be very effective...

...Tagging n1n1 and GenOneRaisedGenY just in case they are interested.
Haze Volcanion is kind of cool but only works because Volcanion is already a naturally good Azu check, even without Haze. I can't see Snatch being very viable, as an Azu check or otherwise in competitive play.
 
Ok saying that we can use shit like haze volcanion and snatch on random ass mons is not a good way to think about a metagame. These are completely inferior options and only serve as failsafes for losing to azu. Im not 100% sold either way right now but I know for sure its not healthy to run objectively bad pokemon/sets as ways to not autolose to a pokemon.
 

Bughouse

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It's not like Haze Volcanion is only good for Azu. DD Gyarados and CM Sylveon are pretty popular these days too. As random techs go, it's a totally fine one.
 

sam-testings

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I'd be interested in seeing pro-ban users' thoughts on what makes Azumarill more broken than Kangaskhan. I haven't been in touch with the meta lately, but to me it looks like you could replace "Azumarill" in all of these arguments with "Kangaskhan" and "+6 Aqua Jet" with "+2 Return/Sucker Punch" and be even more valid. (I'm not trying to sound snarky. I actually want to see serious answers and see if they influence my decision in any way.)

Also Follow Me/Fake Out support applies equally to both mons so I don't think it should be a factor in Azumarill's banning when it wasn't enough to ban Mega Kangaskhan (to clarify I don't think Kang is broken either).
i think its because +4 is more than +2 and aqua jet is better than sucker punch. Thats most of it really. oh and jirachi pairs well and all that jazz.

Someone correct me if im wrong im not actually good at this tier
 

Demantoid

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Recently, I've researched a bit on how to counter AzuRachi counters. "Haze" Volcanion, which I use often in the Singles Meta, and "Snatch" Mons have proven to be very effective. To be more specific, "Haze" eliminates all stat changes in the field, and "Snatch" steals the stats boost of any other Mons in the field. Take note that "Snatch" is not effected by Follow Me, leaving dumb-founded opponents with an Azu that just lost its HP for nothing. With this, I'm just saying that there are ways to bypass Rachi in order to make Azu worthless. And yes, I'm aware that they may seem as unusual choices, but they are definitely rewarding to use against an AzuRachi team.

(Sources: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Follow_Me_(move))

Before you rant about "why the heck would I even use that in a normal matchup", test it out in this non-AzuRachi suspect test. Seriously, where are the AzuRachi?

Tagging n1n1 and GenOneRaisedGenY just in case they are interested.
Snatch actually steals the move not just the boosts so the Snatch user would then use Belly Drum and lose half its health. You also have to use it on the turn they belly drum.
 

MajorBowman

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Why are we suspecting Azumarill as a whole and not just belly drum or something? Seems kinda silly to get rid of the entire Pokemon when only 1 move is the issue
 

Ununhexium

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Why are we suspecting Azumarill as a whole and not just belly drum or something? Seems kinda silly to get rid of the entire Pokemon when only 1 move is the issue
Because you ban a Pokemon based on its best set you don't ban moves / abilities / etc just to keep one Pokemon in the tier
 

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