Metagame np: NU Stage 14 - City Escape (Baton Pass + Speed Boosts BANNED)

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The NU council has decided to suspect the combination of Baton Pass and Speed Boosts.

This includes both Speed Boost + Baton Pass as well as Agility/Rock Polish + Baton Pass and any other way of Speed Pass

The b value for the ladder will be 9 with a COIL requirement of 2800. Sample values with the corresponding statistics:
Code:
GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

Council reqs will be 1800 COIL.

We have decided to suspect this combination due to the large amounts of Pokemon that are made ridiculously threatening due to receiving Speed. As NU is not a very fast metagame, there are few counterplay options when Pokemon such as Malamar or Xatu receive Speed boosts.

Tagging The Immortal for ladder

/!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
  1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
  3. No discussion on the suspect process;
  4. You are required to make respectful posts;
  5. You are required to read this thread before posting.

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

If you have any questions feel free to ask below.

The suspect will end on Saturday, July 2nd at Midnight EST
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
Ok I brought this up in the NU room but it's a little dead and there's no council members to actually discuss this with.

Why is a ban that is already pretty complex being suspected when the problematic component being Combusken has already been banned from the tier once for the exact same thing? I think it's pretty silly to go to the effort of preserving Combusken when it's clearly the broken component in chicken pass, because not only does it have the bulk and utility (as well as massive offensive presence in comparison) which actually make it a good BP choice over Ninjask.

I think it's a very odd choice of suspect as there is no proof that bugpass can be abused to the same extent as chickenpass and not trying to deal with the most problematic component sounds like a very strange idea on the council's end. If the community can prove that bugpass (which is very unlikely because of the factors I already brought up) can be effectively abused to the same extent, what is the problem of reverting the Combusken ban and then dealing with Baton Pass?
 
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yogi

I did not succumb...
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Okay, I know I haven't played both Pokémon Showdown and NU for a long time, I believe around a year, but I'm going try and put my overall views out here and question why speed+passing is being tested when that clearly isn't the problem; it's Combusken. Another thing I'm not too familiar on is the complexity of the Baton Pass ban, but I'm kind of in the loop for understanding the various different bans and reasons.

Yes, ban the ability for this combo and then it won't be broken, because you want to keep combusken in the tier; I get it, because it is a very good mon to use and build with due to typing and ability to outspeed most the meta-game after a few turns. But like I've stated before it's unhealthy for a meta to want to make something even more complex for sake of keeping the pokemon that they cherish, because both ninjask and whirlipede are not broken with this combination due to weaknesses in both stealth rock and, for the former, defences and for the latter, initial speed. It also allows both of these mons to shine somewhat in a meta that'd be impossible to make a mark in with a unique niche that doesn't harm the rest of the meta in the way that it'd have to be played.

This, to be fair, seems more of a ban to actually hold on to a pokemon then for it to ban this combination, which in my opinion shouldn't be how it should be approached :( Meaning that a whole bunch of other mons could be legal by not using a specific ability, or move, etc.

Those are just my thoughts on this (don't hate me >.<)

Edit: I also agree with p2 on that if you decide that combusken, after the theoretical ban, isn't the main problem and that it is all bp+speed boost users: then just revert it?
 
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Peli

name elevated but i still act average
It is because combusken is in no way broken on its own. It's the speed boost + baton pass that makes the strategy arguably broken. Ninjask teams have worked with this same tactic before, it's not just busken, it's the pair.
 
Ok I brought this up in the NU room but it's a little dead and there's no council members to actually discuss this with.

Why is a ban that is already pretty complex being suspected when the problematic component being Combusken has already been banned from the tier once for the exact same thing? I think it's pretty silly to go to the effort of preserving Combusken when it's clearly the broken component in chicken pass, because not only does it have the bulk and utility (as well as massive offensive presence in comparison) which actually make it a good BP choice over Ninjask.

I think it's a very odd choice of suspect as there is no proof that bugpass can be abused to the same extent as chickenpass and not trying to deal with the most problematic component sounds like a very strange idea on the council's end. If the community can prove that bugpass (which is very unlikely because of the factors I already brought up) can be effectively abused to the same extent, what is the problem of reverting the Combusken ban and then dealing with Baton Pass?
I figured this would be asked eventually. Combusken is the best choice for passing Speed, this is correct. However, many top NU players have experimented with different ways of passing Speed, and all have been very effective. Saying there is no proof doesn't really make sense, just because you haven't seen it done doesn't mean it can't be done. When discussing options for the suspect test, many different possibilities were considered, but the NU Council believes that there are many different ways of passing Speed that are all causes of the problem.

I guess suspect ladder will be added asap but how long will the suspect last?
2 weeks from when the ladder goes live. When the ladder is live I will put the deadline. I just don't want to screw anyone out of time if I can at all avoid it.
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
Why is a ban that is already pretty complex being suspected when the problematic component being Combusken has already been banned from the tier once for the exact same thing?
As the person who really popularized chicken pass the last time it was banned, I think calling this "the exact same thing" is pretty asinine.

Last time chicken pass was popular was before the overarching OU clause on baton pass.

What made the previous set so incredibly effective was the ability to pass both speed and defense and atk at the same time. Accumulating 3 boosts every turn instead of 1 is an incredible difference when it comes to the potential of stored power users, as well as the variety of pokes that appreciated the attack and def raises as well. The metagame was much different then than it is now (it's much slower now) and we don't have ridiculous passing partners like Feraligatr that had few checks to begin with and were able to be passed Atk, Speed, and Def AT THE SAME TIME and then further boost themselves.

Stuff like Malamar is not even close on this scale while being only passed speed as speed often isn't the reason it fails to sweep in the metagame as is, most teams carry Colbur signal beam psychic types for exactly this purpose.
In my opinion having slow pokes in the meta is WORSE for chicken pass as that means you have bulkier things that can take hits before the speedy mons really have a chance to get out of hand.

Passing just speed is not nearly as threatening as passing Atk, Spe, and Def simultaneously, and that's why I think referring to previous decisions regarding combusken pass is unjustifiable and silly.
 
If you genuinely feel that Combusken alone is the problem, you're probably best off voting no ban.

HOWEveR

Don't vote with only that assumption either. Test other strats (Ninjask, Agilipass, whatever) if you don't encounter them on the ladder (which you probably won't) before you choose not to ban it.

Preliminary thoughts are basically that this is a strong strategy that should be prepared for, but people often don't because despite its effectiveness, it's rare. It's a lot like rain in that regard; sometimes you're going to have a very uphill battle against it but other times you'll be fine. What makes this strategy questionably broken for me is that unlike rain, you don't need to limit your teambuilding to a select few Pokemon. Almost every Pokemon is better with the extra Speed, which means almost every Pokemon can find its way onto the team. Packing an answer doesn't mean you're inherently going to win, nor does it mean that Combusken is useless because even being able to burn stuff and/or pass one boost can be good enough sometimes. But any good strategy is going to have its way of being effective in the face of counters, so that doesn't make it broken on its own either.

If I ladder to get reqs, I'm not sure what I'll vote. Right now I mostly agree with The Goomy but who knows how I will/would feel by the time I get/would get reqs.
 

Blast

Member of the Alien Nation
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ftr myself and a couple other users have played around with Ninjask pass and it honestly isn't that bad lol (idt I saved replays but others did iirc). It's certainly not better than Combusken but I don't think it's fair to assume that Combusken is the only legitimate Speed passer without any evidence on the opposing end either.

I also don't think it's fair to try and pin down any specific aspect of this strategy as the most problematic component. You can make a case for any part of the core in question and it would be just as subjective. Like for example, I could argue that Xatu is the problem because it's the only recipient with Magic Bounce, Stored Power, and enough natural Speed and Special Attack to run through teams after only a few boosts. And while Speed pass would likely still be a legitimate strategy even if Xatu was banned, it's far and away the best recipient and Xatu's unique traits are a huge reason why this strategy was deemed suspect-worthy at all.

The problem lies in the specific core of Speed Boost BP Combusken + CM Magic Bounce Stored Power Xatu. You can argue Combusken is the problem, you can argue Xatu is the problem, you can argue Speed pass is the problem. The reason I personally voted for a BP-related suspect was because I felt that it would be the least likely to leave negative after-effects on the tier (which is again subjective, but the majority of the council voted for a BP test too).
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
I agree with ryan. Combusken is not the problem that we are looking out here for on this ladder.

I'd also like to quote amg on an important point from the NU chat a few minutes ago:

[20:41:40] amg: and we are talking the wallbreakers that utilize these boosts as well

This important to note because most of the discussion in this thread is inevitably going to be about the passers themselves, while in my opinion, the real problem is the wallbreakers that go with them. Everything benefits from the speed boost, but there's currently a lot of things that benefit from it especially. There are things in this tier like Mesprit, Samurott, and (obviously) Xatu, which benefit from the speed boost that these Pokemon give so much. The good thing is that these Pokemon can also function without the Speed Boost! It's a strategy with little to no downside that in my opinion, is not necessary nor provides balance to this tier.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
ftr myself and a couple other users have played around with Ninjask pass and it honestly isn't that bad lol (idt I saved replays but others did iirc). It's certainly not better than Combusken but I don't think it's fair to assume that Combusken is the only legitimate Speed passer without any evidence on the opposing end either.
This post annoys me because, you speak of Ninjask-pass being not "that bad". But is it broken? I highly doubt you would consider it broken, and if it isn't it should not have been brought up at all in the suspect thread. Neither should any form of other speedpassing, such as AgiliPass. Sure, these strategies can be worked, but if you don't think they are broken then you shouldn't be voting to ban BP + speed. As Ryan said, "If you genuinely feel that Combusken alone is the problem, you're probably best off voting no ban."

Now let me discuss why I believe Ninjask-pass or Agilipass are not problems. Ninjask pass has always been a thing but for the majority of time it has always been regarded as a gimmicky strategy. Why? First of all, Ninjask's very pathetic offensive presence when not holding a Choice Band makes it hard for it to force out other pokemon, and then set a Substitute, and get off a pass. If you look at the NU Viability rankings, the amount of common pokemon that Ninjask can force out is extremely low. There are a few, such as Lilligant, Malamar, and Jynx but it pales in the comparison to the amount of things that just straight up beat it 1v1. Just sending speed without an intact substitute is definitely workable but it's a very difficult strategy for Ninjask to pull off because Ninjask invites so many dangerous heavy hitters in (for example, Archeops, Magmortar, Charizard, Rhydon, Aurorus), which makes it very hard for the baton pass recipient to get the boost without taking big damage in the process. Now compare Ninjask to Combusken, something that may actually be broken. Combusken can force out a huge number of pokemon due to its fire-fighting typing. It can actually set up Substitutes on multiple pokemon due to Bulk alone as well (if holding an eviolite). You can't just hit Combusken hard back hoping it can't send anything in, because unlike Ninjask, Combusken can deal huge damage on its own to its opponents. Combusken's typing also synergizes well with its main BP recipient, Xatu, and with Malamar. And it doesn't lose 50% of its health to Stealth Rock. Ninjask isn't even comparable to Combusken in terms of efficiency, and is very clearly not broken with Speedboost + pass.

As for Agilipass and RockPolishpass, there are a wide variety of pokemon that can use the two moves in NU. (Combusken, Scyther, Smeargle, Swellow, Ariados, Beedrill, Dodrio, Emolga, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Floatzel, Girafarig, Gorebyss, Leavanny, Ledian, Lopunny, Masquerain, Minun, Ninjask, Plusle, Rapidash, Sawsbuck, Lunatone, Solrock). However this strategy suffers from a major problem that makes me highly doubt it is broken in any way. You cannot use moves while getting the speed, as you can with Speed Boost- you cannot set up a Substitute and get a speed boost, or attack the opponent while you are getting the boost. That means most of the time the pokemon are forced to take a hit while setting up Agility. And then later again the recipient will be forced to take a hit because it is a fastpass, not a slow pass, and there is no Substitute behind it. Since strong pokemon like Floatzel and Scyther get the strategy I'm sure it can be used to some degree of success. But you would need several high-level replays to convince me it's actually broken.

tldr: usable strat =/= broken strat, don't vote ban if you think only chickenpass is broken
 

yogi

I did not succumb...
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The main problem I have with this is the fact that, unlike other speed boost+baton pass mons, combusken is easily splashable. You can make teams without thinking too much about what will threaten it due to its great/unique NU typing and almost perfect neutral coverage just with its STAB moves; the same not being said about the other two potential speed passers. More-so, passing with agility or any other speed increasing move is even less broken because it requires actual set-up every time that this mon wants to pass, as they can't just click protect/substitute, meaning that it's not exactly easy to do with consistency. And any attempt at trying to get consistency would require specific teams made for catering around this mon for it to function correctly, as, due to it giving up at least two slots to a speed move+baton pass, it would/will be basically deadweight if not built around properly or if you have a specific match-up that doesn't favour the passing mon, respectively.
 
I figured this would be asked eventually. Combusken is the best choice for passing Speed, this is correct. However, many top NU players have experimented with different ways of passing Speed, and all have been very effective. Saying there is no proof doesn't really make sense, just because you haven't seen it done doesn't mean it can't be done. When discussing options for the suspect test, many different possibilities were considered, but the NU Council believes that there are many different ways of passing Speed that are all causes of the problem.
I agree with man that this blanket suspect might be a bit overstretching (maybe that is the goal). When I sit in the nu room I will see complaints on chicken pass, but I've never seen any other pass abuser hated on. The links in the OP give me the vibe we follow OU rules to an extent, so the policy for bans should also apply? Namely, it is on the people looking to change the status quo to provide replays / reasoning that isn't dogma theorymoning.

For example:

I played against advantage in a NU room tour and he used a sand attack sub passing ninjask. He didn't win but the team was solid(solid replay here).

Many strategies are solid but dont work everytime therefore I suggest players to vote no on the blanket speed pass suspect.

That format seems fair, doesn't need to exactly be that but it seems more diplomatic than astral top tier flexing.
 
I know we're trying to avoid complex bans here, but I think the issue with the whole situation is the safety in which said passers can attain boosts and pass them along a la Speed Boost + Protect (correct me if I'm wrong). If we did a complex ban of the combination of Protect/Substitute + Speed Boost + Baton Pass (which sounds incredibly stupid, I know and probably will get a lot of shit for this), I feel like it can significantly nerf the Speed Passing issue.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
The thing about this strategy is its kind of like OHKO moves: it's either broken, or useless. It just adds an unecessary and, frankly, stupid element that NEVER should have been part of Pokemon. BAN PLEASE
 
I will not make a verdict with my lack of meta experience at this moment (the only thing I enjoy about playing Pokémon now is making the occassional really silly team) but I do have something to say about it.
But way back, in my first few matches on Pokémon Online (before I even joined here!), I remember passing a Flame Charge to Gardevoir. And sweep. After that, I've used a fair few of silly teams, some of them including a Speed Pass Ninjask. Speed passing to things with a lot of power that can safely take a hit (well, we don't have Gardevoir anymore, but there are a lot of things residing on 80-85 speed in the tier that can do the same) is still a dangerous thing. Xatu is an obvious recipient but mixed Samurott can still do it. Ludicolo too - that way it does not have to set up its own rain.
It's pretty hard to create the oppertunities unless mons have great natural synergy - for example, Combusken and Xatu. That combo would still work with Agility instead of Speed Boost. Sure it'd be a tad less reliable but it'd still work as long as you have a free turn (and you may want to have an alternative or two to pass to - it's not like Samurott is bad to add on a team alongside those two, anyway).

Whether this deserves a ban or not is up to you guys but a lot of things are extremely dangerous (especially in NU) once they receive that boost.
 
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The thing about this strategy is its kind of like OHKO moves: it's either broken, or useless. It just adds an unecessary and, frankly, stupid element that NEVER should have been part of Pokemon. BAN PLEASE
you say>
unecessary and, frankly, stupid element
So passing stats is bad for you....I think it pretty cool move but it can also pass negative buffs, and is really countered by phazers..your point makes no sense.
 
I have a real problem with the suspect. It is easy to work around. There are numerous ways to fool the entire strategy: trick, curse pass, roar/whirlwind, circle throw, destiny bond... the list goes on. Mons like steelix, torterra, and poliwrath can shuffle the team around. Dusknoir and anyone bold enough to run curse on a ghost type can stall it out. Sash+destiny bond.
Roar users have fallen out of use in this metagame and that's a real shame.
And yes. As everyone knows, Xatu is a bit more challenging to phase. But it's really not too hard.
 
I'm so glad this came up for discussion. Speed passing is so broken in NU that it isn't funny. I've seen more than just Combusken do it too. It's not fun to deal with. The arguably best way to combat speedpassing in NU is with clear smog/haze users such as Gastrodon and Weezing. The only problem is that those moves are really uncommon because they aren't powerful enough and only do one particular job. And even if you have them, you have to be able to survive and take a shot against the speedpass teams. Phasing moves are also possible, but again have the issue of needing to take a shot and being hard to use on the select number of mons that run them. Speed passing makes movesets that have issues working without proper team support go above and beyond what they normally do,
such as banded+moxie Pinsir. Even if there's only one thing receiving the speed and passing the speed, the opponent is forced to dedicate 100% of their focus on beating the baton passer and passee. Speed passing isn't invincible of course, but it is something that makes the game too easy to play. At least in the NU tier. Speed passing in my opinion is the same as passing multiple types of boosts with the extra boosts occurring on the receiving end rather than the passing end. So it's slower in terms of when it happens, but it's practically the same concept. I think that Speed Passing should be banned from NU. No exceptions.
 
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