Metagame NP: SM RU Stage 1 - Strange Mercy (Feraligatr Unbanned)

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I could get behind that - if we introduced the same BP clause as OU (i.e. one passer, no passing Speed and other stats) I wouldn't mind a retest. It would make Choice Espeon more threatening as it could use Baton Pass to grab momentum and escape Pursuit. Having a look at what gets Baton Pass in RU:

Absol - can pass Swords Dance, Calm Mind and Curse. Super frail though

Accelgor - can pass Agility or Curse. Great Speed but frailty holds it back
Ambipom - lol why are you still using this thing? Can pass Nasty Plot though.
Durant - can pass Hone Claws and Iron Defence. Good physical bulk gives it set up opportunities
Espeon - can pass Calm Mind (and technically Curse, but...no). Can force switches but it's very frail and prefers to receive boosts than pass them
Gligar - can pass Swords Dance or Agility, and good bulk gives it space to do so.
Jolteon - gets Charge Beam...and technically Curse, but why would you run that?
Medicham - gets Bulk Up and Calm Mind and is able to force switches pretty easily. However, it's frail and not that fast
Oricorio formes - Swords Dance and Calm Mind but again...why would you use them?
Pyukamuku - can pass Curse, and great bulk with Unaware lets it easily set up on stuff that can't hit it super effectively.

If we're including lower tier mons, Ninjask can BP Speed easily thanks to Speed Boost while Volbeat gets Prankster Tail Glow and Baton Pass. Lopunny can also pass +3 Attack with Z Splash, or Cosmic Power. All of them are pretty awful outside of that though.
 
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MrAldo

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Cant get behind the idea of retesting baton pass to bring back stuff like quiver pass. It is a rather complicated topic cause if Im honest, I was fine on most parts with the previous baton pass clause but I firmly believe speed passing is a really unhealthy element that shouldnt be brought back. Only drypassing should be allowed cause it is a good momentum tool for many things.

But at that point you are going overboard with the complexity of the clause (although I believe it can be applied in some simple way on the way I envision it) so you wonder if it is worth all of that just to keep a move. You win some, you lose some

Also, fuck reuniclus.
 
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Cant get behind the idea of retesting baton pass to bring back stuff like quiver pass. It is a rather complicated topic cause if Im honest, I was fine on most parts with the previous baton pass clause but I firmly believe speed passing is a really unhealthy element that shouldnt be brought back. Only drypassing should be allowed cause it is a good momentum tool for many things.

But at that point you are going overboard with the complexity of the clause (although I believe it can be applied in some simple way on the way I envision it) so you wonder if it is worth all of that just to keep a move. You win some, you lose some

Also, fuck reuniclus.
Then why not simply implement it as OU has. Passing is allowed buto not the passing of speed with another stat.

Also the argument of not retesting because the rule is too complex just ends up with the meta having less options to work with because of the assumption it be too hard to learn or to implement.
 

Lord Death Man

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The argument of not retesting it is based in the belief that baton pass constricts teambuilding. And it does constrict teambuilding. I don't want to have to use haze Mantine on offense teams to deal with the possibility of Swords Dance pass Gligar to Sharpedo, Rock Polish pass Gligar to Heracross, Bulk Up/Acid Armor pass to Reuniclus/Necrozma/Espeon, etc. This isn't getting into actually niche things people can pass, like Cotton Guard/Tail Glow via Smeargle, Coil via Gorebyss/Huntail, or Curse Pass to a White Herb Unburden mon.

Baton Pass is controversial because it makes matches even more matchup based in a bad way, and I feel it heavily constricts teambuilding on those merits. A team featuring a sweeper you're weak to, but can manage with smart plays can easily become a team where you have to make perfect predicts every single turn or risk losing with the addition of baton pass.

I also think that drypass should stay banned because unbanning pieces of baton pass piecemeal is overly complicated for minimal gain.
 
Baton Pass has never proven healthy for pretty much any meta it was allowed in. It's a very frustrating playstyle to go against and really doesn't promote a stable metagame where room for creativity is allowed. Even in OU, where Baton Pass is already limited to Speed passing, it doesn't make it any less irritating and uncompetitive. I usually wouldn't try to bring up past precedent to support my arguments, but in this case, I hardly think Baton Pass is worth a retest at the moment, if ever, especially since we just recently re-added Feraligatr and the current metagame still needs time to settle.
 

ManOfMany

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So... let's get some actual metagame talk.

Araquanid’s a pokemon that has been thought of as mediocre and generally not worth using, but I wanted to try out just to make sure. What I found out is that it’s actually a very usable pokemon, that’s definitely better in practice than on paper. Everyone knows that Araquanid hits like a truck, and that it has great special bulk, but it also lacks coverage and easy is to wear down with Stealth Rocks. However, I’ve found that with the right moveset and with the proper team support it’s not actually that big of a problem.

The great thing about Araquanid is that it is such an amazing tank who is able to 1v1 so many pokemon. Its special bulk, even without investment, is insane, allowing it to take on Nidoqueen, Scarf Gardevoir, Shaymin, Salazzle, and several other relevant special attackers, as well as practically getting a free switch in on Florges and the Slow brothers. In addition, the water-bug typing is fairly useful in tanking hits from certain physical attackers, like Scarf Flygon, Gligar or Scarf Heracross. It’s kind of like Bewear in a lot of ways in that it is hard to kill, but it can one-shot a lot of things in return.

Here’s the set I’ve been using:


Araquanid @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Protect
- Liquidation
- Leech Life

I’ve been using it on a semi-stall team in tandem with Umbreon’s Wish Support and Toxic Spikes, and it regularly manages to get multiple kills per match. Leftovers is by far the best item for Araquanid, as it grants it a very substantial amount of recovery, especially in tandem with Protect and Leech Life. You rarely feel that you are worn down easily if you’re able to play it properly. Toxic obviously works great with Protect, and is necessary if you want to hit Mantine, Milotic, or pretty much any other bulky water-type. You can usually come out on top vs these pokemon if they lack heal bell support on their team, which makes Araquanid almost unwallable except for Venusaur and Toxicroak.

Here are some replays I had with my semi-stall team. I haven't really focused a lot on saving replays, so these ones are not all that great though. I also have recently replaced the Cresselia with a Scarf Gardevoir and its been working a lot better.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-574057405
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7rubeta-574054640

Overall, bubble spider is definitely a pokemon that is worth trying out. It doesn’t fit on every team, and might be a hindrance if you put it on hyper offense or something, but with a strong defensive backbone and some Wish/Heal Bell/Healing Wish support it can be really solid.

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Some other underrated pokemon I’ve been enjoying recently:

I’ve been using an AAA Life Orb set of Knock Off / Drain Punch / Gunk Shot / Bullet Punch on a lot of my teams, and it has performed wonderfully. Although it is overshadowed by Heracross, it has a lot of redeeming factors over Flame Orb Hera and definitely should be seen more. Being able to pivot into Doublade’s SD/Sneak is nice, and it also can threaten hard-switch on Reuni and other slower Psychic-types. It is also cool how it can OHKO fairy-types, and how it does not get worn down as easily due to the Drain Punch recovery.

Shoutouts to DTC for getting me thinking about this pokemon. Ferroseed is pretty cool as a defensive pokemon since it can do things that other steel-types really can’t do, such as set up Spikes and hard-check Gatr and other water-types with Leech Seed. It has a lot of problems, such as Eviolite reliance and being easy to lure with HP fire, but honestly it puts in a lot of work on certain builds.

Aerodactyl is a very neat offensive pokemon that outspeeds pretty much the entire metagame. Not only is it able to clean offensive teams and harass Swellow and Salazzle with Pursuit, it also threatens a lot of the flimsier balanced cores that you usually see, such as Gligar/Mantine and stuff. I’ve found that it is really nice paired with Zorodark (everything is) and Toxicroak as they can lure a lot of similar checks and counters. It does struggle quite a bit with bulkier pokemon like Doublade, Slowbro, and of course the fat ducks, and Stone Edge misses do suck, but its efficiency vs offensive teams makes it fairly decent.

Whimsicott is a really splashable threat on offensive teams. The primary reason of course, is being one of the few offensive pokemon that can check Flygon and Feraligatr in one slot without being a Choice Scarf user. I’ve seen people complain about its lack of power, which is extremely valid, as predicting wrong with Encore can give the opponent a free switch to Nidoqueen or Doublade or whoever. However, Z-lure sets with Psychium Z or Ghostium Z (shoutouts Rakan) can surprise a lot of checks, and priority Encore is still just so useful. If you’re fortunate, you can even clean up late-game with Moonblast.

Finally, Hoopa is something that I haven’t used personally, except for one time in Webs, but I’ve found it very hard to play against. Hoopa is a pokemon that thrives when Pursuit is at a low point in a metagame, and that is why it was sort of looked over in ORAS. But now, the usage of Sneasel, Drapion, and Aerodactyl, is quite low and Hoopa has more space to breathe. Hoopa is an absolutely fantastic wallbreaker both with Specs and Nasty Plot sets, with its only real counterplay on defensive teams being Toxic stalling (run Sub+NP or even Lum to avoid this). The great thing is it is not a glass cannon at all, and it can switch in with absolute ease on pokemon like Reuniclus, Cresselia, and Chesnaught. Its special bulk even lets it take on pokemon like Nidoqueen and Gardevoir, so it is basically guaranteed a kill every match. So yeah, definitely a mon that deserves more thought.
 
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Lord Death Man

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If we're talking about underrated mons, there's something I've been using lately and have had quite a bit of success with, and that's Nasty Plot Ninetales. The set I've been using is


Ninetales @ Firium Z
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Psyshock

I know the initial comparison is to the very similar Salazzle, but Ninetales has three decent sized advantages over Salazzle; it hits about 23% harder, it lacks a Psychic and Water weakness (thanks to Drought), and it has MUCH higher special bulk and somewhat higher physical bulk - I calculated them at roughly 58% higher sp. def and 22% higher defense - giving it more chances to set up in the face of certain mons, such as Bronzong (kos Salazzle with EQ), Cresselia, Milotic, or non-Haze Mantine.

This Ninetales set beats a few typical salazzle counters, like Dragalge, Quagsire, and Rhyperior, and can beat some checks without resorting to a Z-move, like phys def or non-haze specially defensive Milotic and Slowbro. In exchange, it does much worse versus some other mutual checks and counters, especially Snorlax. It is also slightly harder to revenge kill with certain scarfers, like Shaymin (earth power doesn't KO) and Gardevoir, while being much more vulnerable to being revenge killed by mons between their speed tiers, such as Zoroark and Durant.

Also sun can be nice to support certain pokemon, giving mons neutral to water more leeway to check Feraligatr and Sharpedo, improving Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun for mons like Cress and Shaymin, and giving Venusaur a small niche over Roserade (since you're not Heat Rock, it still has very limited turns). I've been using Ninetales alongside Gigalith because having the weather "reset" can be very useful for both Ninetales and Gigalith, while also giving you a way to take away sun from the opponent.

Cool wallbreaker, I think it has a small but legitimate niche in the tier right now, and I've had quite a bit of success with it overall.
 

Punchshroom

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Guess I'll just bring up this gem of a Pokemon then:


Minior @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Shell Smash
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake
- Substitute

SubSmash Liechi Minior has to be one of my favorite wincons in the tier atm. While it's very vulnerable to priority, though its access to Substitute means it can skirt around Sucker Punch if need be, it more than makes up for with its ability to easily access its explosive power and Speed. Ideally, you'd like to Shell Smash on either a resisted attack like Swellow's Boomburst or Heracross's Megahorn, or an uninvested blow from walls such as Florges; sitting ducks that are reliant on status, particularly Gligar and Torkoal, are especially appealing targets, though u may want to Sub first vs Gligar to prevent it from Knocking Off the Liechi Berry. Then, you Sub up until you reach Liechi, then crush opponents with +3 Acrobatics & Earthquakes with 100 base Atk and a blazing +2 base 120 Speed that is virtually untouchable for any Scarfer, or even any weather sweeper without priority for that matter. Btw, need I mention just how badly Minior threatens Sun teams? Like the aforementioned Torkoal and Gligar are vital/common Sun members that just give Minior free setup.

If the opponent tries to immediately respond to Minior by switching in their Scarfer while Minior's still in Shields Up forme, not to worry! Simply Sub on the switch and keep doing so until your Sub activates Shields Down, then Shell Smash behind the safety of your Sub and ta-da! You've turned the tables on that Scarfer and can immediately strike back and start cleaning up. Of course, requiring the removal of priority and weakening of bulky mons that can still take Minior's +3 attacks (preferably damaging them beyond repair if not outright KOing them, as Minior can spend a good number of turns setting up the ideal sweep) is quite the substantial amount of support, but having the safety of Shields Ups' bulk and status immunity combined with the ease of accessing the guns-blazing Shields Down forme, which requires smart play and possibly timing, to facilitate the sweep is oh-so-satisfying.
 

EonX

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Going to piggyback off of Lord Death Man a bit and back up his talk on Firium Z Ninetales. It's something I've been using a fair bit myself recently and I like it quite a bit. It's kind of a staondalone wallbreaker that has the Speed to give slower teams a lot of problems thanks to the sheer damage output +2 Inferno Overdrive has against the likes of Mantine and Umbreon in the Sun. Thanks to Drought, Mantine can be used as setup fodder (ideally, Nasty Plot as it comes in and then Plot again on the Toxic) to a certain extent. It's also a nice Pokemon in general to have in order to remove Sand from opposing teams and Ninetales's Speed allows it to outspeed Stoutland, a key Sand abuser. Unfortunately, Ninetales only really has 3-4 turns to do work since it heavily relies on Sun being out for its power. This does make Grassium Z an interesting option since it allows Ninetales to push heavy damage onto Gigalith which is a pretty common switch-in to resist Fire Blast and remove Sun at the same time. Obviously, Salazzle has more overall use due to its higher Speed and secondary STAB while still having utility against slower teams with Taunt. Now on to a set I've been loving on offense as of late:


Gardevoir @ Choice Specs
Ability: Trace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid or Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball

I posted about this over in the cores thread, but it's really a lot of fun to use. Trace is as great as ever and due to the tendency of many teams to rely on the likes of Offensive Nidoqueen and Doublade to check Fairy-types, Specs Gardevoir can lay waste to plenty of teams with unexpected power. Even teams with a fatter Steel-type like Registeel or Bronzong can be rendered useless as a switch-in with one proper prediction. The choice between Psyshock and Psychic is pretty simple: How much does your team fear CM Florges? Psyshock lets Gardevoir reliably 2HKO Florges while Psychic means it will always lock into a move that benefits from Sheer Force. This is important because, with a Timid nature, it's very easy to lead Gardevoir against most Nidoqueen teams and put immediate pressure on the opposing team. HP Fire and Trick are other options to consider as HP Fire 2HKOes AV Escavalier and OHKOes Band variants easily while Trick can cripple something like Registeel or Bronzong, depending on which coverage move you forego to add Trick. Timid is preferred to ensure Gardevoir always outspeeds Nidoqueen and Honchkrow, but Modest is viable for increased damage output and the fact that Queen and Krow usually run neutral Speed natures. However, keep in mind that Timid also lets Gardevoir always outspeed the typical Stoutland under Sand as well as neutral nature Venusaur in Sun and neutral nature Kingdra in rain. Give it a try. You'll be surprised how often you have one of two scenarios at Team Preview: "Wow, my opponent has no reliable Fairy resist. Free Moonblast spam." or "All I need to do is catch *insert Dark- or fat Steel-type here* with the right move once and I can spam a STAB move at will."
 
Hello -- I know I haven't posted in forever and I'm a relative nobody in the RU community, but I just picked up the game again a few days ago and Trick Room seems extremely strong. I've been floating around ~1500 or so using almost exclusively TR offense. I think the playstyle uniquely succeeds in the meta due to the plethora of viable setters (SpDef TrickRoomBoom Bronzong, LO 3 attacks Reuniclus, Defensive Aromatisse) as well as flexibility in terms of threats. Reuniclus, LO Escavilier, -Speed Tyrantrum, and Dragalge all rip through conventional balance cores.

However, I think the biggest boon to Trick Room teams lies in their inherent synergy with one of the best cleaners in the tier, BellyDrum Linoone.



Linoone (F) @ Figy Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 148 HP / 252 Atk / 108 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Seed Bomb
- Shadow Claw

The combination of the powerful wallbreakers under Trick Room and Linoone's ability to mop the floor with weakened balance cores makes the two a potent threat. I acknowledge 1500 isn't that high on the ladder and I would honestly love to hear some feedback from the rest in the community/see this in the hands of a more gifted player.
 
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