NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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Is everyone even playing the same metagame as me? I cant see how Milotic is even hard to deal with considering the mass dumb grass type spam (Leafeon, Venu and Sceptile most specifically...ughh), which to to honest are alot harder to deal with than Milotic. That and the high usage of Toxicroak too etc. In addition most sweepers also having a ways around it, i found it very underwhelming to use and to play against this round. I guess because i use Spikes etc but still wow i was expecting it to be the second coming of christ. ~_~

If it was to be nominated then it should be because of the offensive LO set not for defensive characteristics, seriously. Even then "why?" this is arguably the most balanced metagame uu has ever had. I question peoples team building skills sometimes lol
 

SJCrew

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If Cresselia comes in on something like Moltres
...and what if it doesn't? Cresselia, more often than not, will be at full health or close to full health, setting up a CM on a Pokemon that has no chance of beating it (Fighting types, walls/tanks). Even if we were to take your example at face value, you have to actually have Drapion, Absol, or Houndoom on your team to take advantage of the situation. But keep in mind that if Cresselia has > 70% HP under any circumstances, it will CM instead and Houndoom and Absol WILL lose.

And who on an offensive team is Cresselia going to set up on without taking loads of damage against first? Froslass? Taunt. Donphan? Roar. Scyther/Swellow/etc...yea good luck.
That sounds like Heysup's offensive team, not the UU metagame, lol. If you Cresselia-proofed your team and played with it for the entire round, that's good for you, but you're not representative of every player that used conventional methods such as singular counters like Houndoom and Mismagius (who fail pretty much all the time), or Trick and Toxic, which are either prevented by Sub CM or evaded altogether. Using anything besides attacking as a way to counter Cresselia is never a surefire way to beat it and therein lies the problem: a majority of the UU metagame can't even 2HKO Cresselia while she gets to CM like a whore and stall everything out.

My experienced opinion: Cresselia is easier to set up on than almost any variant of Milotic.
I'm sure if I used the Heysup method of beating Cresselia by putting Taunt/Roar/Uturn/Toxic on everything, it'd be a little easier to beat. But standard offensive teams had to bend over backwards to make sure they weren't getting swept by it, which never seemed to change the fact that they didn't always work. If all of your methods for beating a certain Pokemon involve everything besides dealing direct damage and KOing it, you have a huge problem on your hands.

My issue with Milotic is that it checks more Pokemon than Cresselia
I like to debate as much as the next guy, but when you start saying stuff like this, you just seem delusional and desperate to hold on to your convictions. I don't even need to point out how Milotic can't come in on and wall strong physical attackers like Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, or how offensive Grass types can walk all over it.

You cannot argue with Calm Mind, 120/120/130 defenses, and an immunity to Spikes. You just can't. As much as you'd like to juxtapose some of Milotic's advantages being stronger than those of Cresselia's, the raw statistics as well as the consensus of other experienced UU players are against you. 95/79/125 vs 120/120/130, you do the math. Regardless of what you may think, Cresselia was banned, and under very sound reasoning, and if Milotic measured up to that very same standard, or even better, it might have already been banned by this point.

Maybe I do agree that Milotic is rather tough for UU to handle and it could very well feasibly be banned someday, but if this is the only case you can present for it, I think it's safe to say we'll be seeing around for a long while.
 

FlareBlitz

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Milotic loses to the most popular pokemon in the tier and one of the most popular types in the tier. It cannot switch into and reliably beat every physical attacker without [insert STAB bug/dark move here]. It cannot use Calm Mind at all, and is not capable of going on the offensive like Cresselia was unless it's the LoLO Milotic set.

It's just not a comparison between the two. At all. Cresselia is heads-and-shoulders better. So it doesn't get haze, boo fucking hoo. What could set up on it that likes thunderwave/toxic/ice beam/psychoshifted burn/boosted special attacks or anything else that cresselia could do to fuck with your day? All Milotic can do is sit there and haze until whatever its hazing decides to just attack and force it to recover.

Given my experiences with my anti-milotic team (except an RMT soon, it's almost completely refined) I can now confidently say that there are a variety of diverse and powerful sweepers in the metagame who can bullrush past Milotic barring unfortunate hax or poor play, and if people use moltres/azumarill/donphan or whatever cores than they should rightly expect to get stalled the fuck out by it.
 
...and what if it doesn't? Cresselia, more often than not, will be at full health or close to full health, setting up a CM on a Pokemon that has no chance of beating it (Fighting types, walls/tanks). Even if we were to take your example at face value, you have to actually have Drapion, Absol, or Houndoom on your team to take advantage of the situation. But keep in mind that if Cresselia has > 70% HP under any circumstances, it will CM instead and Houndoom and Absol WILL lose.
Uh no. Absol survives Signal Beam, as does Houndoom. HP Ground is even a better situation, since they both survive. Those are 3 "perfect" examples of Pokemon that can abuse Cresselia. There are quite a few others, Froslass for example (or any Spiker). DS Uxie with any Pokemon not named Toxicroak. Rhyperior. The list goes on.

Milotic loses to the most popular pokemon in the tier and one of the most popular types in the tier. It cannot switch into and reliably beat every physical attacker without [insert STAB bug/dark move here]. It cannot use Calm Mind at all, and is not capable of going on the offensive like Cresselia was unless it's the LoLO Milotic set.

It's just not a comparison between the two. At all. Cresselia is heads-and-shoulders better. So it doesn't get haze, boo fucking hoo. What could set up on it that likes thunderwave/toxic/ice beam/psychoshifted burn/boosted special attacks or anything else that cresselia could do to fuck with your day? All Milotic can do is sit there and haze until whatever its hazing decides to just attack and force it to recover.
When will people consider the fact that a Pokemon can only run 4 moves with 508 EVs? I don't get why people think Cresselia is doing anything more than Milotic if it isn't using Calm Mind.

The answer to you question: probably not much can set on Cresselia with 30 moves.

What can set up on Milotic with the four moves: Haze, Surf, Ice Beam, Recover? Answer: not much. Certainly less than Cresselia with four moves, but apparently it has more I dunno.

Flare Blitz said:
Given my experiences with my anti-milotic team (except an RMT soon, it's almost completely refined) I can now confidently say that there are a variety of diverse and powerful sweepers in the metagame who can bullrush past Milotic barring unfortunate hax or poor play, and if people use moltres/azumarill/donphan or whatever cores than they should rightly expect to get stalled the fuck out by it.
Your anti-milotic team is weak to standard offense, I couldn't help notice....but then again I wasn't using Milotic. It would be impressive if there was a team you could make that wasn't weak to standard offense without being walled by Milotic (Venusaur is basically the only thing that works effectively).

I like mine better :)

My most successful way of beating Milotic is using a couple Milotic lures (SD Blaziken, SD Kabutops, etc) with Spikes and SR along with LO Arcanine to finish it off and pull off a sweep.
 
@the whole shrang/heysup conversation

Is this not exactly what I meant? Cresselia was banned for almost exclusively Calm Mind. If it didn't Calm Mind, and I'm sure all the players during that metagame can attest to this, it was significantly easier to beat, possibly not even broken. Take away Calm Mind and you have a decent new stall tool but not much else. Calm Mind, believe it or not, is an offensive move. Milotic can not be compared to Cresselia unless you want to theoretically pretend it didn't have Calm Mind in which case I can almost assuredly say Milotic would be in general the better wall with far superior typing and a better support and offensive movepool, especially with the 100 SpA to boot.

Is everyone even playing the same metagame as me? I cant see how Milotic is even hard to deal with considering the mass dumb grass type spam (Leafeon, Venu and Sceptile most specifically...ughh), which to to honest are alot harder to deal with than Milotic. That and the high usage of Toxicroak too etc. In addition most sweepers also having a ways around it, i found it very underwhelming to use and to play against this round. I guess because i use Spikes etc but still wow i was expecting it to be the second coming of christ.
If Milotic were gone, my guess would be that the use of grass types would actually significantly decrease bar Venusaur because of its general utility, who might still fall in usage to mons like Moltres and Mismagius if Milotic left, and grass types just lost their number 1 free switch/setup opportunity. By taking away one variable and leaving everything else the same you can conclude that grass types are used mainly to check Milotic, even if they do have other purposes in the metagame.

Of course this is just my best guess (eh suspect test) but it's my best guess from what I've found.
 
If Milotic were gone, my guess would be that the use of grass types would actually significantly decrease bar Venusaur because of its general utility, who might still fall in usage to mons like Moltres and Mismagius if Milotic left, and grass types just lost their number 1 free switch/setup opportunity. By taking away one variable and leaving everything else the same you can conclude that grass types are used mainly to check Milotic, even if they do have other purposes in the metagame.

Of course this is just my best guess (eh suspect test) but it's my best guess from what I've found.
And the fire types usage would increase. I see the F/G/W core right here.
Example: if we had Arcanine banned, we would probably see lots of grasses running around.
If Venusaur is gone, water pokes would be "abundant" in a way.
And so on...

At least that's what i believe.


PS: I just saw a CM Relicanth. Like, WTF.
Now i have to use CM Sudowoodo with a huge base 30 SpA coupled with a huge special movepool consisting of Hidden Power and Earth Power... oh, what a pain.
 
I have seen a lot of sandstorm... and the only point of those teams seem to be "lets hope they don't have something to deal with cradily so we can toxic stall the whole team"

ps. i hate cradily
 
Concerning personal suspect testing:

I've found repeatedly that when I use a suspect for the first time, it rarely lives up to the hype created by the pro-ban side. When I first used Milotic, I found myself faced with so many grass/electric moves, and even fires and rocks like Arcanine, Houndoom, Magmortar and Steelix could screw me over. But as I used it more and more, I began to understand its capabilities and limits in more and more specific terms. I've had similar experiences with Salamence in OU as well as Venusaur, Froslass and Cresselia in UU to an extent.

Concerning the nominations:

What's the big deal? These are just nominations. The nominations don't directly matter in the voting stage. Additionally, the nominations aren't necessarily saying that a Pokémon is broken, just that it might be broken. The nominator might turn out to be undecided or even preparing a UU vote.

Concerning the Cresselia stuff:

...lol. Cresselia's done. It's BL. Maybe Heysup and SJCrew should have another battle with the ducks banlist, but other than that I don't see the point of a comparison between Milotic and Cresselia. Unless you're talking about pure support Cresselia...?
 

shrang

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I think the Cresselia-Milotic comparisons are there so if you can say "Milotic is better than Cresselia at X" (And X is a broken factor), then Milotic, should be banned by comparison. I don't really see what Milotic has better than Cresselia on the whole anyway, and (forgive me) pro-ban people just seem to be picking on the minor details of the Cresselia vs Milotic comparison rather than look at the big picture.
 

PK Gaming

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More people need to use Sandstorm. It's a pretty fun playstyle to run in UU, and while the useless as hell Hippotas is a drag, you get free stealth rocks / death fodder.

I mean Rock Polish Aggron becomes a lot better in SS because he isn't OHKO by Surf and that gets you the 2HKO on Milotic and friends.

It's an neglected playstyle that more people should play.
PS: If Hippotas gets down rocks and toxic's something it deserves a standing ovation.

Edit: Are we talking about Cresselia now? (Shudders) the terrible memories...
 
I am about l l that close to go batshit insane over sandstorm. The only surefire counter are strong close combats which most are conveniently banned. Thats not to say its unbeatable though. Strong ground types like torterra and rhyperior are often their downfall in wearing them down. The thing I hate is when they try to stall you out with with a "Hyper Defense" stack of Regirock,Cradily, and Shuckle to wear down your ground types and stall you out with toxic/perm sandstorm.
 

SJCrew

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Uh no. Absol survives Signal Beam
79.4% - 94.1%

lol whoops

dead w/spikes

as does Houndoom
29.5% - 34.9%

2HKO on average with SR, guaranteed with Spikes. Also, you have absolutely no chance if it's packing HP Figthing (I didn't, but a lot of players did, especially on Sub CM).

If Spikes aren't down in either situation, both Pokemon would be left with less than 10% after they attack, which means they die if I switch to something else to take the attack. Cresselia is decently fast for a wall and has instant recovery, so she can still come back in and recover to wall the rest of your team, which is pretty much GG if Absol or Houndoom were the best you can do. It's funny how neither of them OHKO before being hopelessly crippled too.

So I better congratulate myself, since I managed to use 6 Pokemon that Cresselia couldn't just walk in and set up on. Apparently I can't do this for Milotic though.
No you didn't, you just told me that you're trying really, really hard to stop Cresselia with two Pokemon that die incredibly easy to residual damage, and two that can stop it from setting up but don't actually beat it. The reason I place so much emphasis on "conventional" methods such as attacking and KOing the Pokemon in front of you is because they're the only surefire ways to beat it. From where I stand Scyther is the only Pokemon that can do that and it's 4x weak to SR, so it's not going to last long if Donphan can't keep those rocks at bay.

Donphan can't Roar if it's the last Pokemon, can still be worn down by attacking, and furthermore, it can't deal substantial damage to it. Cresselia is very much capable of setting up on Swellow because it doesn't even 3HKO in its dreams, and can only U-turn out to Scyther. Cresselia doesn't even need to set up to beat these guys, as it will naturally outlast them by attacking/recovering and letting SR do most of the work. And we're talking about an entire team geared toward beating Cresselia.

There are quite a few others, Froslass for example (or any Spiker). DS Uxie with any Pokemon not named Toxicroak. Rhyperior. The list goes on.
That's not even a good list, lol. You're listing support Pokemon that can set up on a lot of things, but don't actually beat Cress. Froslass can't set up Spikes because it's too busy Taunting and being hit by +1 Psychics. Even if it could miraculously get more than one layer up, it wouldn't matter because Spikes fail to stop the biggest threat to your team, which is Cresselia itself.

As for Uxie, it Dual Screens while I basically get to spam CM and the only way it could force me out is by sacrificing itself with Mememto. Great, so you suicided one Pokemon and sent in another just to have a chance of forcing Cresselia out. And that's balanced how?

To begin with, in order for your examples to work to work, the setup Pokemon has to be able to set up (Froslass has to sacrifice a turn to Taunt, then keep using Pain Split to keep it from dying to +1 Psychic), then the incoming sweeper has to be able to threaten Cresselia out and subsequently sweep. That doesn't take into account the fact that the sweeper could be checked/countered by something completely different and Cresselia, who is still very much alive, can come in on something else and promptly set up. The entire reason we banned Cresselia in the first place is because no matter how many times you tried to force her out, she simply would not fucking die (Defensive Characteristic) and could easily abuse her defenses to open a setup opportunity and sweep (Offensive Characteristic).

I'm merely pointing out that if Cresselia is banned for reasons like these, then it would only make sense for Milotic to be banned. This isn't as hypocritical as the Raikou situation (I would certainly say Raikou was a much better sweeper than Cresselia), but if you consider Cresselia's defensive characteristic nominations (few as they were), Milotic makes just as much sense (more in my opinion) to ban as well.
Are you seriously not noticing the difference between Milotic or Raikou taking a strong physical hit and Cresselia taking a strong physical hit, or are you pretending to ignore it for the sake of the argument? Milotic is not being banned because it doesn't take hits nearly as well as Cresselia, has more solid counters (I can name six or seven as opposed to Cresselia's two or three), and has no stat boosting moves to threaten the entire team as well as the sweepers it forces out.

Basically, Cresselia has Calm Mind and better defenses, and Milotic doesn't, which was the entire reason she was banned to begin with. Once Milotic ups that physical defense and gets CM, let me know so I can don my pitchfork and help boot her out of the tier as well.
 

PK Gaming

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I'm curious to know if Electivire has ever been tried for UU.
That bastard might join us soon if Mence gets banned. His suspect usages are bottom rung. (55) it's a joke really, and I would NOT want to see this pokemon in this tier. Give me Heracross, give me Smeargle. Hell I'll taking fucking Roserade, but NOT Electivire.


Gotta count on those scrubs to come through for me.

Edit: Even Erazor agree's. This thing sucks ass, and I don't want to see it's ugly mug in UU.
 

shrang

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That bastard might join us soon if Mence gets banned. His suspect usages are bottom rung. (55) it's a joke really, and I would NOT want to see this pokemon in this tier. Give me Heracross, give me Smeargle. Hell I'll taking fucking Roserade, but NOT Electivire.


Gotta count on those scrubs to come through for me.

Edit: Even Erazor agree's. This thing sucks ass, and I don't want to see it's ugly mug in UU.
Its Suspect usage is probably because not many people play Suspect, and those who do are players who know what they're doing and know that Electivire is garbage. E-Vire usage isn't going to fall substantially even if Mence gets banned because noobs are still going to abuse GyaraVire because they think its cool when it actually sucks.
 
Oh god can please stop talking about cresslia, If you have an argument why a pokemon is suspect show why it is broken not "This pokemon is vaguely similar to a BL pokemon so they are the same ok"

Electivire and Snorlax. You will see it once in a blue moon most of the time but its everywhere used by 400 CRE newbies.
 

SJCrew

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I'm not going to buckle to the popular opinion that Electivire is terrible, since I'm certain a lot of players don't have much experience with it, if at all, but it is indeed more a gimmick sweeper and I don't see it running through anyone's team in a top-tier OU match (especially if there's any chance your opponent sees it coming).

Anyway, Evire in UU would basically ban Electric moves from the tier and make Milotic effectively invincible.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, I have a suggestion: let's not bother testing any of the bottom OUs besides Umbreon, Dusknoir, and Tentacruel if they ever come down. I don't want to waste my time with anything even close to reminiscent of the UU ducks metagame.
 

shrang

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I thought you said you got bored of this metagame and you wanted something to drop down so there's something to do... o_0
 
E-Vire... Snorlax...
What next, Suicune? (trying to imagine how to take this thing down in UU).

Ok, trolling comments aside:

Umbreon doesn't need testing. Umbreon was UU after all.

About usage: Well, Heracross is closer of being UU than all those pokes SJCrew mentioned. Dunno why: mine did 99% with a Swarm Megahorn to Gyarados O_o

I think the only one that doesn't need testing is exactly Heracross. The other bottom OU pokes can be tested (IF they ever come down).
 

SJCrew

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I thought you said you got bored of this metagame and you wanted something to drop down so there's something to do... o_0
Abusing suspects is fun for a while, but I have to play against them too, you know. I'd be a hypocrite if I voted the suspects BL even though I really wanted them to stay.

I still play UU, but experimentally. Using alts to abuse ridiculous gimmicks is actually rather fun. Anybody remember the guy with Trick Room Solar Power Sunflora? Yeah, that was me. :P

Gimmicks or not, you still need to practice proper teambuilding. I'm still going to automatically hate everyone on ladder who faces me with a team full of NUs (Flare or Thund especially).
 
The reason I bring up Cresselia is because I consider it the benchmark for a defensive ban, and tbh the reason it was banned was CM. Whether or not non-CM Cress and Milotic are comparable is beside the point. CM is basically what got Cress banned, and Milotic isn't defensively ridiculous enough for it to be banned despite the lack of calm mind.

I love UU for pretty much the same reason as SJCrew. Concept teams are so much more possible, and everything has a great offensive partner. I am having a very difficult time trying to find a sweeper that doesn't have a partner that lures in the same walls and explodes or something.
 
Is it possible that people vote for suspects round-by-round simply because they don't want the metagame to stagnate like OU has/did for so long? Raikou and Froslass were everywhere, and people got sick of them. Understandably, they were too capable for the tier, but now we have Milotic and Venusaur getting a lot of attention. Is this just because we don't want the tier to cluster around these Pokemon? I think a lot of UU players who nominate these Pokemon want to see the tier free of "easy options." For example, Milotic is a relatively easy option for adding defensive bulk to a team; likewise, Venusaur can slot into so many teams and fulfill a similar role (particularly alongside Milotic). I think a lot of the UU player base wants to escape the "bog-standardness" that tends to appear in OU (masses of dragons and steels) and create a truly (forced) diverse metagame. At the moment, despite what some have argued, I don't think it is particularly diverse. Teams have only diversified so far as to counter the likes of Milotic, which still keeps diversity within certain boundaries. Anything beyond that is making a deliberate attempt to be different, which I applaud, but how are the success rates of these teams?

If Milotic were voted BL, this would undoubtedly open up the tier for Slowbro and Slowking, both of which have excellent qualities, but do have their pitfalls that make them less "easy" (ie. they only really defend on one side of the spectrum each). Picking one of the two to better suit your team's needs would go some way towards enhancing the mix-bag appeal of UU.

The problem is, stall loses another valuable tool, and I can't help but think that the metagame keeps getting pushed in an all-out-sweeper direction. Is that fair on players who prefer that style? I'm just posting these things because they have been rumbling around in my head, and I can't decide on a vote (quickly running out of time).
 
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