NU Analyses Discussion Thread

soulgazer

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Approved by Raseri
I also stole this from Spirit :toast:


Hi, this thread is meant to primarily discuss one of two things: possible additions/updates to completed analysis and is the place to go to if you want to make a case for a Pokemon that doesn't have an analysis but believe it should receive one.

The first entails the following:

-Whether an analysis needs to be completely rehauled to fit the current metagame

-Whether a set needs to be added/updated

-Other small miscellaneous changes such as giving X move a slash on X Pokemon's set

The second should be self-explanatory, but if you believe that X Pokemon deserves an analysis, make sure nothing completely outclasses it and that it has a good enough niche. For instance, while Marshtomp isn't necessarily bad, there's not much of a reason to use it over Seismitoad which has all of: bulk, typing, and being able to set up Stealth Rock, while it can also do things that Marshtomp can't, such as pulling off a offensive set and its immunity to Water-types attacks when using Water Absorb.

You can also post here if you are not sure on what sets to add in your skeletons. Another option is to lurk in #neverused on mIRC/mibbit and ask us about it, but since not every QC members go on IRC, posting here will let everybody to see it and add their opinion.

ex:
Hi, I was wondering what are the sets that deserves to be on Samurott's analyse? I have a lot of experiences with the Special Attacker set, but I am not sure about Swords Dance as it faces a lot of competition from Feraligatr.
 
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Has any checked to see if all Omastar/Spiritomb mentions have been removed from the currently finished analyses that mention either Pokemon?
 

antemortem

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Has any checked to see if all Omastar/Spiritomb mentions have been removed from the currently finished analyses that mention either Pokemon?
currently doing a sweep. any mentions deeply rooted I will leave for someone more experienced with NU but I've got enough knowledge to remove/fix small stuff.
 

soulgazer

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http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/roselia

Max SpDef is really bad in my opinion, and Hidden Power Fire needs to be slashed on the set too.

Spikes
########
Name: Spikes
move 1: Spikes
move 2: Giga Drain
move 3: Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Synthesis
ability: Natural Cure
item: Eviolite
evs: 248 HP. / 252 Def / 8 SpD
nature: Bold

With Rest and Toxic Spikes in Moves as Toxic Spikes > Synthesis Roselia can be nice on stall since it will have Wish support from Audino, Lickilicky, Flareon, or even Slurpuff. As for Rest well, it is not really as reliable as Synthesis (getting back to full is nice, but being forced to switch out or to burn sleep turns can put your team in some bad situations). BTW I know that Toxic Spikes is already mentionned in Moves, but it seems that it imply Toxic Spikes should be used over Spikes; which honestly isn't really good for Roselia as it will now face a lot of competition from Dragalge.

A Physically Defensive spread allows Roselia to set up Spikes more easily than the Specially Defensive spread; it can now switch on Ground-types more easily, take on Fighting-types better, etc. It is still bulky on the special side even with just HP investments, so it can still take on Rotom (be careful for Trick), Grass-types, etc.
I want a Hidden Power Fire slash as some teams can't afford Ferroseed setting up entry hazards for free on Roselia or Klinklang setting up a Substitute without any risk.

If you guys wants me to calc and make a different spread that can take some specific special hits, pls tell me.
 
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boltsandbombers

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Alright, I'm going to suggest a small slashing change. On the current audino analysis double edge is slashed before knock off which I don't agree with. In almost all situations, having knock off is more useful than having a slightly more powerful stab move. Ghosts,
in particular NP mismagius are fairy common and unless audino runs toxic (which it should not) it is hopelessly walled by them. Sure, missy commonly runs colbur berry but having knock off allows audino to beat it 1v1. Now, I know that usage does not equal viability, but when was the last time you saw someone use an audino without knock off?
While not running double edge leaves audino prone to sub NP liepard, it can also use encore of paired with a different heal bell user on stall. While it is really darn good, NP liepard isn't too common.
Thoughts?
 

Ares

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Alright, I'm going to suggest a small slashing change. On the current audino analysis double edge is slashed before knock off which I don't agree with. In almost all situations, having knock off is more useful than having a slightly more powerful stab move. Ghosts,
in particular NP mismagius are fairy common and unless audino runs toxic (which it should not) it is hopelessly walled by them. Sure, missy commonly runs colbur berry but having knock off allows audino to beat it 1v1. Now, I know that usage does not equal viability, but when was the last time you saw someone use an audino without knock off?
While not running double edge leaves audino prone to sub NP liepard, it can also use encore of paired with a different heal bell user on stall. While it is really darn good, NP liepard isn't too common.
Thoughts?
Seeing as I was the one who originally wrote that I'll comment on why I have the set order that way. While Knock Off does allow you to beat Ghost types in a 1v1 situation a lot more easily it does not allow you to break a lot of pokemons subs which then allow them to setup on Audino. Knock Off just seems to get pitful damage while Double-Edge is STAB 120 bp and can actually break subs. Thats why its slashed first.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Seeing as I was the one who originally wrote that I'll comment on why I have the set order that way. While Knock Off does allow you to beat Ghost types in a 1v1 situation a lot more easily it does not allow you to break a lot of pokemons subs which then allow them to setup on Audino. Knock Off just seems to get pitful damage while Double-Edge is STAB 120 bp and can actually break subs. Thats why its slashed first.
Alright, fair enough. Worth a try I guess :P
 

soulgazer

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Audino NEEDS Knock Off. There's not a lot of Substitute users in NU lol, the only common one that i have in mind is like Klinklang, which Audino can't break unless it uses like Fire Blast. It does help against Substitute NP Liepard, but then Audino loses to Mismagius. IMO Knock Off's utility > Double-Edge's power. Knock Off should be first slash

I would also like to bring up Gourgeist-Small's analyse. I personally think that Disable is a better move than Phantom Force as it lets Gourgeist stop Ice Punch Lum Gatr, random Ice Beam users (trolling Jynx, especially if it's SubDisable), Life Orb Magmortar, and other things. Now I bet people will say 'it will become Taunt bait!', but what use Taunt in NU, is common, and is faster? Archeops? Mismagius? Gourgeist isn't staying in on those. If its slower, Gourgeist can still just cripple it or even Disable Taunt if its Protect + Disable. Phantom Force is also piss weak already, so its not like it will change anything if it gets Taunt'd or not (if Gourgeist somehow gets shutdown, both variant will be set up fodder).

here's what I think the set should look like (might need a better name):

Leech Seed
########
name: Leech Seed
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Will-O-Wisp
move 3: Substitute / Protect
move 4: Disable / Phantom Force
ability: Frisk
item: Leftovers
evs: 152 HP / 132 Def / 224 Spe
nature: Timid / Jolly

or even completely remove Phantom Force from the set and only give it a mention in Moves.
 
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Punchshroom

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Yeah I'm on board with getting rid of Phantom Force for Disable (though I use Rock Slide lol).
 

Ares

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Knock Off is on the set ?.?

Also I think it should go Disable / Rock Slide with Phantom Force getting a mention in moves
 

Ares

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Yeah, it's slashed after double edge.
Because personally I dislike the damage output from Knock Off, especially after you have knocked off an item. I find Double-Edge much better on it, cause Knock Off seems to be just specifically for Missy.
 
As someone who plays stall a lot, I agree Knock Off should be the main slash for Audino. Double-Edge definitely deserves a slash though, because it's damage output is nice for wearing down wallbreakers on the switch.

Also, Soulgazer while I really like that set, I don't think you should have Protect slashed with Substitute. Substitute is such an awesome tool that I would never consider giving up with Gourgeist-S, especially for something like Protect, which, in my opinion, isn't as strong. It could probably just be moved to Moves.

Both could probably just be updated through SCMS tbqh.
 

soulgazer

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both Protect and Substitute have their pros and cons LightningLuxray. Protect allows Gourgeist to scout slower opponents without having to lose 25% of its health (~18,5% factoring leftovers) and scout faster threats like Scarf Jynx, Rotom, Specs Typhlosion, etc. Status is also not a problem since you can Protect on Toxic and then Disable it. It does make 50/50s and Protect + Disable isn't 100% safe against status, which is why Substitute is good too obviously, but I wouldn't say that Protect doesn't deserve a slash.

also I don't know what you mean by that last line lol. most of the stuff posted in here will most likely be done via SCMS unless its like a new analyse or a complete revamp
 
Idk, I guess you can scout faster Pokemon with Protect, but it seems as though Gourgeist-S forces a lot of switches, and Substitute capitalizes on that a lot. Also, with Leech Seed coming into play a fair amount, the amount of health lost from Substitute tends to be very little.

Also all I meant by the last line was that revamps probably weren't necessary. :o
 

Psywaves

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Before I move it into QC, I'd like to know what the general consensus is regarding Scarf and Physically Defensive Rotom-S. Do you reckon they deserve their own sets, or not? Cheers. :)
 

boltsandbombers

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Before I move it into QC, I'd like to know what the general consensus is regarding Scarf and Physically Defensive Rotom-S. Do you reckon they deserve their own sets, or not? Cheers. :)
Not QC, but I support the two having different sets. Defensive has merits over rotom-M because of higher bulk and base stats and decent defensive typing, while scarf has good utility in volt switch.
 

watashi

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on gourgeist small i usually just use seed bomb so i can take out a weakened samurott/feraligatr/kabutops instead of taking like 2-3 turns to stall them out (or more if theyre lum)
 
re: Haunter

Does anyone feel a Sub set is worth it in the post-Spiritomb meta? I've honestly not used SubSplit or SubDisable this gen strictly because of Spiritomb, but I'm sure they're much better now.
 

soulgazer

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I wouldn't mind Rotom-S getting a PhDef set in the analyse as the typing is nice. Not sure about Choice Scarf deserving one because it isn't hard to wall it, and tbh the only niche I can think of is being able to revenge kill Sceptile from full (which Scarf Rotom (Ghost one) can't do) while being an electric-type, but i don't think it's enough for it to deserve a set Psywaves, so I would personally give it a good OO mention.

Hollywood idk. Both can't really beat Audino since it will have Knock Off + Wish/Protect, and other specially bulky Pokemon can probably still beat it (looking at SpDef Rhydon), and I don't think it is easy for Haunter to get a Substitute up in this meta lol. Knock Off is everywhere, and a lot of walls can 2HKO it. Taunt + Destiny Bond's utility just seems superior in my opinion. If I had to choose tho, SubDisable > SubSplit
 

Punchshroom

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re: Haunter

Does anyone feel a Sub set is worth it in the post-Spiritomb meta? I've honestly not used SubSplit or SubDisable this gen strictly because of Spiritomb, but I'm sure they're much better now.
SubDisable's use seems to have fallen drastically, as numerous Pokemon have ways around it; even mono-attacking / -coverage mons, like Ferroseed, Audino, and Gurdurr, can get around Disable with Protect or Mach Punch.

Looking at the meta, I am not sure if a Substitute set even warrants use right now. It does not help Haunter take advantage of defensive threats or beat counters any better than a vanilla Taunt and/or Destiny Bond set already does; its speed tier is no longer as good as it was last Gen, meaning it will likely get revenged right back once the Sub is gone (meaning Haunter is usually better off attacking), and it is so frail that its Substitutes survive virtually no non-immune attack thrown at it.

Haunter is expected to die super fast in this meta, and I don't expect Substitute to help it in that regard; I'd rather opt for coverage or disruption moves to make the most of Haunter's time on the field.
 

watashi

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Haunter @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

if i were to use haunter this would be the set. wisp is needed since it helps with so many pokemon and taunt is useful audino, garbodor, and other defensive polemon. hex can hit something very hard if they get burned or poisoned, but shadow ball can be used for reliability. eviolite allows it to take weaker attacks, such as gyro ball from burned ferroseed or vileplume's giga drain. you still die to slurpuff's play rough though
 

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