ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Agree with both Lucario and Tentacruel rising to A-.

I've been using Nasty Plot Lucario lately to very satisfying effect. Coverage is just a little barren with the current set I'm running, but the ability to almost guarantee that Mega Sharpedo (my pick for best cleaner in UU currently) will never sweep is really sweet, as is OHKOing several Pokemon at +2 that can live a +2 Close Combat and KO Luke in return.

Dingbat mostly summed up my feelings on offensive Tentacruel. I've lost count of all the lead Krookodiles I've OHKO'd on turn 1 and have won the game from virtually that alone. My only complaint with Tentacruel is that he doesn't have base 85 or 90 SpA because I've also lost count of the number of lead Swamperts that live LO Giga Drain with barely any HP.
 

Sacri'

the end is here
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Remember when Sacri' said sylveon would never go above A- and I was dumb for thinking otherwise lol.
Hope I didn't hurt your feelings, buddy. I still dont see it A rank mostly because of speed factor, thats called opinion. I'm glad the VR council agreed with you if that makes you feel any better about it. :heart:

edit so this post brings something to the discussion: I do agree with most of the points pif brought about Umbreon, I also think it should move down to B- mostly because of the competition it faces from other clerics.

I don't see any reason to let Lucario move up. The metagame is still rather unfriendly to it and most of the time I just end up using Cobalion because it does better in general. I do understand the fact that Lucario can sweep if it has the right set but honestly just getting the boost is really hard. SD is still easily revenge killed by Cobalion while the Nasty Plot can be revenge killed by Alakazam, Beedrill, Aerodactyl and Crobat, considering how common these things are I think Lucario should stay B+.

Don't have much to say about Tentacruel moving up, it's not that good by itself but considering how hard removing hazards is in this tier I guess its high speed and its good typing + rapid spin might be enough to allow it to go A-.

I totally agree with Mega Ampharos going down. UU is so unfriendly to it, its even worse now that it gives a free hit to Sylveon. Krookodile has also seen a spike in usage which tends to be really frustrating for Mega Ampharos. It doesnt actually beat things that are commonly used, its a shaky Entei and Aero check at best. It just doesnt have enough niches to make me want to use it over the other megas of the tier so theres also that. B- seems fair to me.
 
Last edited:

Wanka

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UUPL Champion
Idk after using amph extensively throughout the suspect and then comparing it to some of the other B rank mons, I'd actually vouche for it to stay where its at. I don't see it being worse than mega aggron in this meta and just from using it in the 60ish games I played, it had some bright spots. It actually acted as a very good entei check for me and I was able to take advantage of SF spam by nabbing momentum on entei's. Saying it gives sylv a free hit is a bit naive because sylv cant really hard switch into an amph as 90% of the time ur getting VS'D on. I also found it to be a very efficient way of dealing with gyardos as it doesn't really care about what gyara wants to do. I'd agree that its a shaky aero check and with krook being one of the best mons on the tier rn, it is difficult to find its way on teams. On top of that, there really is only one good amph set being bulky resttalk so yeah those things do hold it back which is why its in the B ranks but I just don't see it in the same tier as any b- mon. <3 amph.
 
Last edited:

Adaam

إسمي جف
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 8th Grand Slam Winner
Gonna reply to Sacri's comments on Lucario. It's unfair to claim Cobalion is better in general considering the meta has shifted such that balance is pretty much garbage right now. Every single drop since Sab dropped made balance worse and worse (except Zappy which is now dead), and now with NP Celebi and Specs Sylv here you're basically asking to be dumped on by any well-built offensive team or full stall. Offense is the premier playstyle right now, which gives Lucario its chance to shine. Godlike movepool + priority + immediate wall breaking capabilities gives it an edge over Cobalion such that one isn't inherently better than the other. Against bulky teams, Lucario has the advantage, and against offensive teams, it depends whether or not the team is built to handle +2 Espeeds/Bullet Punches/Vacuum Waves well. However, priority is the big thing that often makes me skip Coba for Lucario. With so many threats, speed control is key to give counterplay to everything, and that's something Cobalion lacks.

Sure every set can be revenge killed by something, but is that really enough to throw it in B+? Consider Infernape, for example. They share similar bulk, are revenge killed by the same things (if NP), but Lucario has superior typing. Yet Ape is one subrank above it (yeah shitting on Sab is nice but Steel typing overall provides more set up chances). In addition, Lucario's large movepool means you're "checks" may not be checks if it's carrying that coverage move that smashes it, whereas for NP Ape, Bat always revenges it, Diancie always walls it, Bee always revenges it etc. Lucario is arguably the most dangerous mon to give up a free turn to, so leaving it in B+ is just not right.
 
Last edited:

Sacri'

the end is here
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
It's unfair to claim Cobalion is better in general considering the meta has shifted such that balance is pretty much garbage right now. Every single drop since Sab dropped made balance worse and worse (except Zappy which is now dead), and now with NP Celebi and Specs Sylv here you're basically asking to be dumped on by any well-built offensive team or full stall. Offense is the premier playstyle right now, which gives Lucario its chance to shine.
Defensive utility matters and Lucario has none. It has a great typing but it can't use it at all. Offense being a good playstyle right now doesnt make Lucario any better, in fact it just means you're going to struggle a ton to even try to get the boost from Nasty Plot/SD. You stated that yourself, balance has been getting worse recently, thats right. Here is the thing: Lucarios main niche has always been its ability to sweep these balanced teams. Priorities clearly arent enough to make up for Lucarios terrible bulk and that is why Cobalion is better and is used more.

Sure every set can be revenge killed by something, but is that really enough to throw it in B+? Consider Infernape, for example. They share similar bulk, are revenge killed by the same things (if NP), but Lucario has superior typing. Yet Ape is one subrank above it (yeah shitting on Sab is nice but Steel typing overall provides more set up chances). In addition, Lucario's large movepool means you're "checks" may not be checks if it's carrying that coverage move that smashes it, whereas for NP Ape, Bat always revenges it, Diancie always walls it, Bee always revenges it etc. Lucario is arguably the most dangerous mon to give up a free turn to, so leaving it in B+ is just not right.
Infernape is just more versatile, thats a fact. You cant act like Lucario can run SD/NP and Infernape can only run NP. Thats simply not true. Scarf, Band, Mixed Attacker, NP, all these sets can work and it has a better movepool in general. The issue with Lucario is that it has to set up to do something but when you have a shitty bulk and an offensive metagame, setting up is just out of the question most of the time.
 
Thing about Lucario is that it actually has defensive utillity. The steel typing is pretty fucking valuable for any hyper offense/offense it makes things like Scarfed Hydreigon think twice before it Draco's. It also prevents it from just clicking Dark Pulse since Lucario easily takes advantage of it grabbing of a free boost. Lucario often forces a lot of switches which will often give it a free turn to set up and the fact that it can vary between Nasty Plot and SD is a very big momentum grabber because teams have to find out the set first and might lose some Mons in the process whereas Cobalion is really fucking predictable. The power lack is also notable because Lucario has amazing immediate power not much things want to take an Adamant Close Combat at all and Focus Blast is just disgustingly strong. Lucarios amazing access to a lot of priority also gives it a big edge over Cobalion and Infernape how Adaam mentioned already and priority is really needed on offense orientated teams where Lucario just fits the best on.
The fact that its one of the best stall breaker/balance breaker, its unpredictability and that it's an important member for any great hyper offense easily makes it A-.
 
Woah, probably the best changes atm.
I support Tentacruel's nom, I think that we already discussed about that, but rip, Zapdos was gone and we had the new drops, so we forgot to complete it's nomination :(

Anyway, I need to do a nomination.
Toxicroak
from A- to A Rank:
Toxicroak is the 2nd best Fighting-Type actually, and I'm using it a lot just because the drops were very favorable to it, since it lose a hard check (LO Zapdos OHKOes it with Thunderbolt iirc) and it got 3 Pokémon that can't switch in it. And how Zam probably will be banned, Toxicroak will lose another Hard Check, and it means that it will be one of the most predominant Poison-Types in the tier, since it has a good Attack Stat and a "meh" Special Attack Stat, two good setup moves, a ton of moves that can be used (Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Vacuum Wave, Gunk Shot, Sludge Bomb/Wave, Natural Gift, Dark Pulse, Drain Punch, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot) and a good Speed, since it can outspeed stuff like Mamoswine and Chandelure (OHKOes with Gunk Shot after one SD), and aside of that, it has a demolishing Dark-Type priority that can KO a lot of Pokémon when ~60%, just like PorygonZ, Roserade, Heliolisk. It is also the best Water-Type "sponge" on the Metagame, since it can defeat CroCune and non-Sleep Talk + Roar variants, so it is probably the best answer to Suicune aside of NP Celebi on Bulky Offense teams. Toxicroak is definitely A potential IMO.
 
I've never really got the "lukes not versatile enough" argument

It's worth noting that nape and cobalion's perceived versatility really comes down to 2 viable sets each, cobal can take setup or pivot, while nape can take physical or special ft CC/stone edge and all of their set variances come down to... doing what luke does in the 4th moveslot of it's SD set. Sure they swap more moves items and ev's around but the actual function is the same, changing up the checks and counters by functioning as a revenge killer, wallbreaker, or setup wincon. Luke does all of this in one Hydrie resistant teamslot and with proper teambuilding it''s 4mss is a nonfactor as you just... use the 4th move that best suits your squad. The only thing nape and cobal are doing that luke is not is...setting rocks.


Another thing not mentioned was overall team synergy namely speed control, memento/taunt, and healing wish support (standard fare on offense). Lucario with its check twaved or tailwind up is absurd, you just click CC+coverage and rip open half a team 10 times out of 10 in the offense mirror. Only slurpuff benefits more from memento or taunt, and healing wish lets you run 2 lucario's (which is exactly as broken as it sounds) and all of these moves come on high speed high utility and very very splashable mon's that core well with luke against all playstyles typing/resistance/threat coverage wise, some examples would be... tornadus (wither le doublade, wither le waters), celebi (lure kill ez, waters begone), shaymin (specs seed flare ruins lucario checks, hw on a passive switch is a free +2), suicune (its suicune) and whimsicott (nice dragon immune core for HO), etc etc. All this results in Luke being a lot more splashable than you would think in teambuilding as it's premire cores cover vast swaths of the metagame in 2 mon slots while offering very real explosive damage output.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
more noms

Metagross has gained a bit of traction in this meta, and for good enough reason. As a 'mon that can tank some decently strong hits and strike back equally as hard while being a somewhat decent stealth rocker itself, I found that metagross was more often than not able to pull a decent amount of weight in matches. Although its weakness to three of the most common types certanly doesn't help and its troubles breaking through the strongest walls in this meta on its own suck as well, its increased utility in light of these recent drops has definitely helped its case in. Metagross --> B+

Suicune, on the other hand, has lost quite a bit of traction as a bulky water. With Sylveon and Celebi in this tier, I feel that more and more teams have been able to capably slot in multiple threats that naturally put a ton of pressure on Cune, and as a result, I feel those drops have hampered Cune's ability to perform its role as a premier bulky water in this tier, and I'm certain that Cune is not on par with the other S ranks, let alone some of the A+ mons. Suicune --> A/A+
 
Seconding dingbat's nom for Suicune to drop. Simply put, Celebi's drop is a HUGE thorn in Suicune's side. Nasty Plot styles all over it, Perish Song guarantees CroCune never sweeps. Roarcune will start gaining momentum to stuff the boosting sets but then Suicune just gets pressured to shit and Celebi can keep Giga Draining until the cows come home and STILL sweep or get a pass off. Not saying that Celebi beats Suicune every time, but it has a clear and present advantage and is probably better/more versatile than Suicune in the current metagame, so Celebi either needs to go S (also on board with this once Zam gets the probable boot) or Suicune should drop.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
I've actually been finding just the opposite re:Suicune's viability - Suicune makes a great partner for Celebi, able to beat many of its checks and stops. In particular, NP Celebi appreciates Suicune's ability to reliably switch into Crobat, M-Aero and most of the Steel types that trouble the set (Doublade and Metagross in particular), and makes a powerful bulky offense core to build a team around.

Basically, I'd be hesitant to immediately drop Suicune. It lost one good check in Zapdos while gaining an even better one in Celebi, but it still does what it always does - namely, checking like 60 or 70% of the metagame while still providing decent offensive pressure via CM and/or Roar.

EDIT: Agreeing with a potential rise for Metagross, though, as it has been doing really well this meta. B+ doesn't feel out of the question for it right now.
 
Last edited:
Vaporeon from D rank to Unranked

Like I shouldn't have to elaborate why. The future is looking grim for the little guy and the newest drops aren't helping at all. Outclassed in almost every way possible considering the alternatives we have.
If any elaboration is needed, Sylveon dropping completely outclassed its real only role on a cleric fat WishPasser, since every other water in UU already outclassed it as bulky water. Unrank it.
 
Vaporeon from D rank to Unranked

Like I shouldn't have to elaborate why. The future is looking grim for the little guy and the newest drops aren't helping at all. Outclassed in almost every way possible considering the alternatives we have.
Pretty sure it's D only because it's UU, so we have to rank it. Once it falls it'll probably vanish from the VR.

Also, supporting dingbat's Metagross nom to B+. Been using the thing quite a bit lately, and it's yet to really let me down. High Attack paired with some strong STAB moves and some nice options in EQ/Rocks/Trick/Explosion/Bullet Punch really allow him to generally put in work against a lot of mons.
 

Sun

Who cares if one more light goes out? Well I do...
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

offensive set is the main reason for his possible up to a-, this set is really good shows to address Band Krook, Mamo, Entei, Nidoking / queen, and being normally used to seeing this pokemon run a defensive set, makes a surprise that may be winning the battle, this set also is able to weaken the top dragons Hydreigon and Salamence, using acid spray + ice beam or sludge Bomb / wave, finally we also speak of the defensive set, which puts toxic spikes and removes the hazard opponents by putting pressure various ghost as Sableye, Chandelure and doublade using scald, also the phazer capacity is very good against Suicune, I think we deserve this rise to A-

During suspect, I noticed that Cm Cresselia really was good, good bulk, enjoys a decent movepool, able to eliminate the dark-types and dragon-types as Sableye, hydra, Salamence, also is a great counter to the common Cobalion , and for many other fighting-type pokemon as mienshao, ultimately controls well the poison-type become more common with the drop of Conkeldurr and sylveon as Nidoqueen and Toxicroak, but cm set is not the only one good set of Cresselia, in fact, the set "utility" has the glue function to certain teams who need speed control, and also a solid counter in some wallbreakers; its ability to be good in almost every kind you team (except hyper offense) makes Cresselia one of the best pokemon of the moment, I propose a rise in A

Lucario is a great pokemon, has the ability to very easily boost against bulky teams, has the ability to be able to use swords dance and nasty plot, this is a very important factor to consider because it makes lucario "unpredictable" and therefore difficult to control; I think every team should have balance in mind a countermeasure for it, as can be a revenge killer or a hard check, sd Set manages to win against teams more offensive as mega aero / azelf / Hydreigon, the nasty plot instead an advantage against the physical walls that tend to scout the set of luke, as swampert, Cresselia, using nasty plot have a big advantage against them, (you can beat Cresselia with dark pulse) also enjoys the advantage of vacuum wave, which is useful to hit hard Cobalion, this ability is lacking in sd set (as extreme speed and bullet punch as prio moves) finally manages to strike hard suicune and Blissey using Focus Blast, capable of OHKO them after a nasty plot, support with pleasure the rise to A-
 
Last edited:

Manipulative

Camila <3
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I definitely agree with Tentacruel getting a rise. Zapdos was an incredibly good option for bulky offense and balance teams and was something that hindered Tentacruel, but it's gone now. I honestly am not a fan of most of UU's options for hazard removal anymore, but Tentacruel is certainly among the best of them if not the best. Mega Blastoise may be acknowledged as the best spinner in the tier, but often times there's just too much cost in filling your Mega-slot with it. There are also qualities that Mega Blastoise lacks in comparison to Tentacruel; most noticeably the ability to remove Toxic Spikes upon entry. As soon as Mega Blastoise comes in on a Toxic Spike, it becomes "crippled" since it'll get worn down upon each turn that it stays in (and it'll want to stay in to spin anyways). A good part of the reason it's so threatening is because it is so difficult to take it out with a single hit, but the residual damage from Toxic Spikes makes that more doable. The lack of passive recovery sets it back even further. The main mon that competes with Tentacruel as a hazard remover for me is Salamence. Obviously Mence is amazing in whatever role it performs, including as a Defogger, but I just find myself wanting to use Tentacruel instead most of the time. The amount of utility it offers in that one teamslot between Rapid Spin, setting and removing Toxic Spikes, and Haze, is incredibly useful to say the least. Qualities such as being able to switch into Specs Sylveon's STAB moves and check Conkeldurr, and also being able to effectively run an offensive set (which has been receiving a bit more popularity lately), also warrant Tentacruel's rise to A-.


I don't have too much to add on to the Lucario argument, but I agree with both Adaam and Ice Tea. One point that I do want to reiterate though is that Lucario has the immediate power to be threatening, and isn't always going to be reliant on getting a boost up. Of course, the idea is still going to be to get a boost up and that's when it's going to be most threatening, but 110 Base Attack or 115 Base Special Attack coupled with a Life Orb and strong STAB moves still isn't something to take lightly. It's not like Lucario is really slow either; base 90 Speed allows Lucario to outpace a good portion of the tier, and access to various priority moves just makes it all the better. Switching out of Lucario opens up the possibility of it setting up. The fact that Lucario has no counters since it can pick and choose what it wants to beat between its two sets and common coverage moves also helps its case. I also agree with the metagame shifting to favor more offensive builds being good for Lucario and think that it would be just fine to place it at A-.
 


Tagging watfor the Cresselia fanboy, Mahmudkipz
Agreeing with a rise for Cresselia. The fast CM set is actually an incredible win condition, that surprisingly can break through traditional CM Psychic type checks like Hydreigon(especially Scarf Hydrei) and even Dread Plate Krookodile really easily without even necessarily running a Colbur Berry, and actually in my opinion does the job of bulky win condition a little better than Reuniclus even if it vulnerable to status. Add to this the ability to also run the Thunder Wave support set, and be able to blanket check a number of relevant threats in UU(including all of the fighting types pretty much unlike Slowking, Mamoswine, Salamence, Gyarados to an extent, Nidoking & queen, and quite a few more). Cresselia is amazing because it can not only just sit there and set up in the faces of some more offensively orietated teams there, but even for the fact that its support moveset just stops so many relevant threats in one slot. This thing definitely deserves A rank at in this meta. I also want to put it out there that, this is probably the most effective CM Psychic right now possibly more so than Reuniclus.


I'm not so sure about Lucario, but it has been an extremely member of spike stack, and is valuable for hyper offense as a way to deter Scarf Hydreigon from spamming its STABs(much like Sylveon in that respect). I think the main thing that goes against it, is that even though on paper it has no counters, it certainly has more than enough checks that are extremely common most notably things like Cresselia, Slowking, Salamence, Doublade, Gligar and even some offense staples like Krookodile can check it in a pinch. I personally think that SD is really overrated, and that NP is probably the most effective set imo. I wouldn't be against seeing this in A- though! Swords Dance is probably effective only on spike stack to be honest, and Cobalion provides the same resistances with greater defensive utility, so Lucario certainly DOES face competition though,
 
Last edited:
Because one turn recovery keeps florges relevant. I.e. the cm synth/wish synth sets. Also please don't say sylveon is less specially bulky than florges; because if slyv/florg have the same investment sylv is like 1.7% less specially bulky lol Punchshroom
 
The thing is you cannot afford to make same investment for Sylveon as you make on Florges, thats why Florges is a better special pivot/wall compared to Sylveon
 
....? If I wanted to run sylveon as a cleric there's no serious way you can't say that cm florges is the only way it stays relevant/good. I'd go so far to say that if its not wish synth or cm/synth its outclassed.florges with a cleric set can afford to run investment....but sylveon can't? Why? Sylveon generally has way better things to do like use specs hyper voice or something, but if I ever wanted a cleric which has more bulky on the physical side I could feasibly use phys def cleric sylv. Its not its best set, but it emphasizes that florg has to keep to its niches to stay valuable. Ofc cm/synth is really good and has been a pillar for balanced teams for ages but just thought I'd put it out there.
 
Generally speaking, Sylveon outclasses almost all of Florges' roles except Calm Mind; one-turn recovery is that good. Sylveon only has very slightly less special bulk while passing larger wishes and having significantly better physical bulk and more power. Florges is still an excellent cleric, but its Calm Mind set is what has kept its rank since Sylveon's drop. Florges has the luxury of running Aromatherapy or coverage where Sylveon would need WishTect to keep itself healthy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top