ORAS UU Viability Rankings V5

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pokemonisfun

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My thoughts on the nominations - keeping in mind I'm a lame stall player whose experience with these mons is me using them from other people's teams

Moltres: C+ rank is fine. I definitely think ChrystalFalchion way oversold Moltres; not mentioning for instance Moltres' second biggest problem - accuracy. But C+ still fits because we have other barely usable mons in this tier such as Uxie and Weezing.

Florges: A- rank is fine so is B+ honestly and I wouldn't mind if it dropped to D rank. To me its a worse Sylveon unless you're using CM Synthesis or Wish Synthesis but Sylveon has a much more viable Specs set. I just don't know how you people want to tier. As in lets say Mega Rayquaza dropped and was not quick banned for whatever reason. Obvious S rank. But what if the next day game freak released Mega Rayquaza 2.0 and it had 1 more base speed - so its almost always better than Mega Ray 1.0.? Does Mega Ray 1.0 drop to D because its basically outclassed or does it stay S because its obviously super overpowered still? If this question is answered I think it would make the Florges ranking a bit easier - although unlike my hypothetical yes I am aware Florges can run some sets better than Sylveon, just not many.

Umbreon: B- rank is fine, I made a post in the last thread.

Nidoking: I think it should always stay below Nidoqueen for reasons that have been outlined. But I wouldn't mind it rising to the same tier as Nidoqueen as long as it stays below her because they are quite similar. I think the reason why Nidoking should stay in B+ compared to Nidoqueen's A- is that Nidoqueen can run a successful defensive set in addition to an offensive set while Nidoking can only run offense.

Celebi: S rank for Celebi for sure; the most important nomination in terms of how we view the metagame, Celebi definitely deserves S rank. It has nearly everything going for it - extremely high bulk for an offensive Pokemon, probably only below Mega Swampert off the top of my head and extreme versatility and even power after a boost. It has literally no counter in the tier because its amazing coverage - Dark types sadly tend to be weak to Grass in this tier or otherwise cannot beat Celebi. The biggest (only?) issue Celebi has is its large amount of weaknesses but that is difficult to take advantage of for the before mentioned Dark type problem and Crobat and Beedrill fearing Psychic STAB moves (as well as boosted Sucker Punches). To be fair though I would say its defensive sets are overrated - particularly with Perish Song. It might seem like a good phazer beating Suicune, but because of Perish Song's low PP and Pressure, Celebi cannot be your only answer to Suicune and Snorlax and Reuniclus which is a bit unfortunate.

To me what pushes Celebi in S rank territory is 1) lack of counters 2) BP changes games too quickly. Honestly the defensive sets are irrelevant or very insignificant compared to the power Celebi can hold.

Cresselia: A rank I agree, it counters so much and can sweep. It has the potential to counter some Krookodile and Hydreigon sets which is just ridiculous, its only problems are a weakness to status/bad recovery in general, low power and iffy defensive typing.
 
In your hypothetical, Mega-Rayquaza 1.0 (or in our case, Florges) stays at an S rank because it still has viability when compared to the rest of the tier. Now that Sylveon has carved itself out a nice role as a Specs user, I feel the role of the cleric has fallen to Florges. Although outranked in certain aspects by Sylveon, I believe Florges can and has carved it's place into at least a B+ ranking. I personally believe A- is a little too high for a Pokémon that is, to a slight degree, only has two viable sets (CM and Wish).
And I just looked up Florges for the first time in forever. Did anyone notice it has better or equal stats compared to Sylveon in every stat except HP?
Dang Pixilate can get you places.

Florges should remain A-


Agree with pokeisfun on Nido king/queen. Both very good Pokés but since Nidoqueen has more than one set going for it, she deserves to be higher up on the tier list than King.
Nidoking and Nidoqueen should stay where they are


Celebi...Celebi is a mixed bag for me. I see why everyone here thinks it should move up a ranking, but I just can't see it. An S rank Pokémon is a 'mon that can overcome all of its flaws and perform excellently in the tier that it falls under (I'm just paraphrasing here). Celebi is by all means an amazing Pokémon. Great moves, a few sets to utilize them, ways to buff, support, and go on the offense. But I think Celebi is held back by it's major flaw. Psychic / Grass is a terrible typing. Terrible. Oh my lord it's so bad. When we have Pokémon like Mega-Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Mega-Beedrill, and others running around, I just feel like Celebi's typing leaves it too vulnerable to revenge-kills for it to truly be an S rank. Luckily for Celebi, as previously mentioned, the tier is ripe with water types just begging Celebi to Giga Drain them.
I'm going to have to say leave Celebi where it is for now. It's a great Pokémon but I feel as though it's typing restricts it from an S ranking

And now onto one of the nominations...

Gardevoir. Okay, so someone mentioned this already, but people are arguing that since, you know, Sylveon exists, Gardevoir has no reason to not drop. But I find that I use Gardevoir in vastly different ways than Sylveon. While many think that Sylveon's only viable set is Specs (I respectfully disagree), it is what it's good at. Meanwhile, Gardevoir has a little niche as the fastest fairy type in the tier (Base 80 speed unless you want to bring Mr. Mime up from PU). Now speed isn't everything, and Gardevoir sure doesn't hit as hard Sylveon does, but it's ability to Trace scout and to quickly dish out damaging fairy-type moves secures its spot for me.
I'm a little biased if you look at my signature but it's whatever.
Gardevoir should stay where it is. It has it's own niche to fill and Sylveon and Florges don't diminish it's role in the metagame

I just realized I didn't really motion for anything to move lol. Gotta contribute to the discussion!

I definitely support Mr. Highways nomination of Crobat from B+ to A- but I have nothing to add that he didn't already mention so I can't say much. It can destroy teams not prepared for it, especially (as they said) if it's the Sky Plate set. It also is an amazing (probably the best) Defog user in the tier and can even operate as an anti-lead with Taunt in it's moveset. It deserves to move up.
Crobat should move up to A-. It's proven that speed is probably the most important stat a Pokémon can have time and again, and it's surprising for those unprepared for it's more damaging sets
 
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Ununhexium

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Well the Rayquaza 2.0 argument is a lot different for offensive Pokemon relative to defensive Pokemon because offensive ones would likely be used together in like a spam core to weaken each others checks so they could both remain S rank but defensive Pokemon are different because they would stack weaknesses on eachother which is less than desirable.

That said, I think Florges should remain in A- rank because it's still a great cornerstone for balance teams with its Calm Mind set and the extra Special Defense can be huge when taking on threats to BO / Balance teams like Choice Specs Kyurem and the likes. I wouldn't say it's outclassed by Sylveon because they don't play alike outside of a WishTect cleric set (which in a lot of cases Sylveon does do better), but a stallbreaker / bulky wincon for stall teams obviously plays a lot different from a wallbreaker that at worst just chunks the switch in for 35%

Also Crobat definitely deserves a raise to A- rank just because Flying-type is so good right now (even if Mega Aerodactyl is still everywhere) so Sky Plate makes an excellent offensive Defogger (or Taunt user if you're into that) and BRAVE BAT still chunks like any Pokemon on offense for like 40% but unfortunately it dies kinda fast.
 
Moltres has an accuracy problem but you can run Flamethrower for that, you already have Hurricane to heavily damage opponents. Moltres isn't a glass cannon, so in certain situations a miss does not imply dying. You have Roost for recovery. And well, Mega Aero is common, but it hates switching into Moltres because of Will-o-Wisp. Moltres can severely cripple it for the rest of the match.

That Stealth Rock weakness hurts a lot (you need to carry hazard control with him), and its speed can leave a bit to be desired, but its power, good resistances, and the difficulty to switch into it makes it deserve something better than C rank.
 

YABO

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As crazy as it sounds, for me part of the reas on moltres sucks is precisely because nothing switches into it. My reasoning here is that since nothing switches into it then nothing really switches out of it. If nothing switches out of it then they are attacking. If they are attacking and you miss which happens quite often then you're dead because you're likely at 50 percent. I get that this is all anecdotal it's just that I think moltres is garbage and figured I'd share.
 
As crazy as it sounds, for me part of the reas on moltres sucks is precisely because nothing switches into it. My reasoning here is that since nothing switches into it then nothing really switches out of it. If nothing switches out of it then they are attacking. If they are attacking and you miss which happens quite often then you're dead because you're likely at 50 percent. I get that this is all anecdotal it's just that I think moltres is garbage and figured I'd share.
Was Durant bad in RU? It was actually banned, and the accuracy of its moves were bad. I don't think accuracy is a big factor here, considering that Fire Blast has decent accuracy, and you can always run Flamethrower, which is still pretty strong against offensive mons. If you send Moltres against something it can hit heavily, and it stays, it risks taking a huge blow. Also some mons cannot actually do many damage to it, so you can Roost the damage, Moltres is not like Floatzel in PU or NU, it's actually bulky and can survive some attacks.
 

Kink

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Was Durant bad in RU? It was actually banned, and the accuracy of its moves were bad. I don't think accuracy is a big factor here, considering that Fire Blast has decent accuracy, and you can always run Flamethrower, which is still pretty strong against offensive mons. If you send Moltres against something it can hit heavily, and it stays, it risks taking a huge blow. Also some mons cannot actually do many damage to it, so you can Roost the damage, Moltres is not like Floatzel in PU or NU, it's actually bulky and can survive some attacks.
Actually Moltres needs FB to OHKO offensive mons so your statement is false. It can't always rely on Hurricane's typing or power, not to mention the poor accuracy. The combination of Fire Blast and Hurricane is what gives Moltres it's flame, and if you remove that then you're better off using any other fire type (which you usually are in any case).
 

YABO

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Moltres is horribly inconsistent, can't break through every team, requires several slots of team support, and its decent bulk is severely cut by its horrid weakness to stealth rock. It's relatively slow and shows the same problems as Durant in the tier (which isn't ranked). It's fairly unique niche gives it a place on the rankings but its reliance on chance leaves it costing you just as many games as it wins you.
 
Btw, shouldn't Durant be ranked if only for being BL2? I always worked under the impression that mons that were banned in a tier necessarily needed to have an analysis in the tier above it, and that viability rankings were supposed to have some sort of correlation with analyses. If that isn't the case, then my bad I guess.
 
I've used Durant, it's a decent mon but 8/10 times Heracross is better. Durant's extra Speed is nice, but it has weaker STABs than Hera and thanks to Hustle it has a nasty habit of missing at the worst times. I'd put it in C / C- personally.
 

Kink

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Btw, shouldn't Durant be ranked if only for being BL2? I always worked under the impression that mons that were banned in a tier necessarily needed to have an analysis in the tier above it, and that viability rankings were supposed to have some sort of correlation with analyses. If that isn't the case, then my bad I guess.
That's correct, all BL2 mons were historically ranked. r0ady

edit: my mistake, checked out earlier renditions and apparently we're under no obligation to rank BL2 mons.
 

Kink

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Nominating Conkeldurr to A-. This thing has been underrated and underused (pardon the pun) since it joined us.

The Life Orb set is extremely effective at taking down a ton of even the toughest physical tanks, including Suicune which is a rarity. With no fear to its overall status or capacity to take on other mon, LO can take advantage of an extremely diverse movepool (Priority/Drain Punch Recovery, Bulk Up sets, Thunder/Ice Punch, Poison Jab, Knock Off, etc) and destroy whatever the team needs it to. This adds to its unpredictability, since the team can be formulated in such a way to minimize the likelihood of the Conk set being uncovered prior to it being used.

Which brings me to my next point: the AV set and Band set increase the overall versatility and teambuilding options. AV works against more passive teams in tandem with the aforementioned movepool, while the banded set is extremely difficult to pinpoint and can often destroy any opposition. The reasonable aspect of Conkeldurr being tiered at A- is because it still requires support. However, that support is often minimal, with almost no true constraints on the overall viability of the team. Its speed is naturally a concern, similar to Sylveon, but all things considered, Conkeldurr is a very good Pokemon that should be heavily considered for your teams if you need an edgy Fighting-type with a several teambuilding options and reasonable coverage.
 

dingbat

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ye bl2 mons are technically not uu 'mons so no obligation to be ranked, but all of em minus durant are (coincidentally) ranked anyways, because they are all viable in this meta

I think celebi is an S rank 'mon, altho it's not quite hydreigon/aero level of S yet. I think reachzero's post sums it up really well, and I'd like to add that its np set (its best set atm) pushes Celebi to an S rank threat; it shreds cores harder than tentacruel does, and until one of Dazzling Gleam or Earth Power is revealed, it's going to be really annoying for the opponent to judge whether Hydreigon or Steel types will be able to (defensively) check it. Celebi pressures this meta harder than the other A+ 'mons, sylveon being the closest rival in my eyes, and a move to S rank will reflect just that.

I have never used moltres before, but from what i've seen in battles, C rank is kinda right for it, altho C+ isn't out of the question; i will mainly address its offensive set here. Although it severely dents shit once it switches in, the fact of the matter is that it has very limited opportunities to switch in freely especially against offense (the best playstyle right now) due to its rocks weakness and pressure from a lot of the top threats that are on those teams, it requires the lower accuracy fire blast and hurricane or else it really loses out on its wallbreaking power, (king uu mentioned this) and it competes with other generally better options, particularly Chandelure (lacks recovery and is slower, but can hit even harder with fire blast and has somewhat better typing), Infernape (weaker right off the bat, but has way better typing and can set up np to sweep), and Tornadus (much weaker fire move and no recovery, but is a lot faster and can serve as an emergency tailwind/rain sacrifice whenever necessary). I don't know enough about its defensive sets to really comment on those, but I've seen one used kinda decently on the ladder.

Nidoqueen > nidoking, the extra defenses are still very important and we can always steal kokoloko's post showcasing that importance.

I stand by my nomination to nuke seismitoad, unless someone can show me a good reason to use it over swamp/mega swamp

Will edit more comments in here
 
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Do you really think that Durant doesn't even have one small niche in the UU meta? You came up with the argument that Heracross outclasses it in nearly any way.
Heracross has problems with Fairy pokemon, which can scare it out. Durant doesn't have this problem. Yeah it is countered by many defensive Pokemon and this is a big flaw, but it can check Cresselia, Florges, Beedrill and Aromatisse.

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 413-486 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Beedrill: 452-534 (166.7 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 283-338 (64.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 48-57 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

It is a pokemon which is really difficult to success with, but it has the ability to set up a Hone Claws on certain pokemon of the tier, which can cause a lot of damage if you softened it's counter. There is still the Thunder Fang to hit it's counter on the switch. While Heracross is the better option an most teams, Durant has still the ability to 1vs1 some Pokemon which Heracross normally can't.

I think Durant should at least be ranked as a C- rank, its speed and some better matchups against Fairy Types, Mega Beedrill and non Fire Fang Aerodactyl justify in my opinion a rank in the Viability Ranking
 
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I think C- rather than D, as its better Speed and superior defensive typing give it a niche over Heracross, although the latter is usually a better choice. It can also arguably run Choice Band sets than Heracross (although I prefer to run Flame Orb with Guts), as it can use Baton Pass to scout switch ins and grab momentum.
 

Kink

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D rank is only meant for UU Pokemon that are complete shit, so Durant would not qualify. C- is the only real discussion at the moment.
 

Shadestep

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Why would you rank Pokemon that are conplete shit?

(This is not a shitpost but a genuine question)
 
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Thisbemyalt

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Durant isn't complete shit, don't get me wrong its nothing more than a C mon at best but I would not go so far as to say that it doesn't deserve to be ranked. We rank a lot of bad things, just look at jolteon pre zam ban, nobody used that shit but someone proved it had the smallest niche ever so we ranked it. However I really don't find durant in the same boat, between a great movepool and impressive immediate power/speed I can certainly see using durant with a decent amount of success, which a few people have. C-/C is meant for bad mons that have enough of a niche to be useful in the current meta and I think its hard to say that Durant doesn't fit in, I already talked about this in the last thread so I won't go too in depth but this thing should honestly be ranked.
 
edit: my mistake, checked out earlier renditions and apparently we're under no obligation to rank BL2 mons.
ye bl2 mons are technically not uu 'mons so no obligation to be ranked, but all of em minus durant are (coincidentally) ranked anyways, because they are all viable in this meta
I didn't mean to imply that you HAD to do anything, I was mostly saying that I thought it made sense. If a new user sees that a non-UU mon has a UU analysis and wants to check how well it performs in the current meta, he's gonna turn to the viability ranks. I guess you can argue that it not being there should be enough of a clue (which isn't necessarily gonna be the case, since it could just be that people forgot about it), but at the same time, it does have an analysis. Besides, if UU is the only tier it's gonna be used in, wouldn't it make sense to give it treatment similar, to an extent, to UU mons?
I'm not talking about KD in particular (since it might end up being ranked anyway) but in general, even if viability ranks are more of a private project, as opposed to analyses which are official. I dunno, I guess it's a more philosophical discussion, but if we're ranking as nigh usable stuff that are already extremely niche (I'm not opposed to that), at least BL2 mons have more reasons for that.

I don't wanna clutter the thread with this topic so I apologize for bringing it up, but I felt like I needed to expand on my previous post.

I think that Celebi is very close to being S in a meta with Mence (although A+ is fine too), but if we end up banning that, I'd see little reason to keep it from rising. It all depends on how the meta continues to develop, obviously, but as it is now, either rank is fine for it.

EDIT: So I checked the OU viability ranks and I found the only thing we banned that wasn't ranked at least C- was Drought Ninetales, for obvious reasons since it doesn't even have an analysis (and there are non-OU mons in D there). And non-Drought Ninetales is still usable in other tiers, obviously. Funnily enough, if we were to ban Mence it'd be the first one not ranked there, at least until now.
 
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Why would you rank Pokemon that are conplete shit?

(This is not a shitpost but a genuine question)
Because they're in the tier, so we have to rank them.

Someday Vaporeon might finally fall to RU, then we can get it off the list.

As for Durant, it probably should be at least C-. Even if it's niche, it has a pretty impressive amount of power along with a really nice speed tier.
 

OLD GREGG (im back baby)

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I stand by my nomination to nuke seismitoad, unless someone can show me a good reason to use it over swamp/mega swamp
While there is no doubt swamp is better than toad, my opinion is that toad actually benefits from megaswamp being a thing in UU.

Here's why:

Mega swamp and toad have considerable overlap and function in a very similar fashion under rain. If you are running megaswamp without rain you are doing it wrong. That said, toad has a niche as a viable option for rain teams that can soften up the other side for mega swamp to clean up and vice versa; toads freedom to run a hard hitting special set really helps, thanks sludge wave. It gives rain teams more room to breathe by taking pressure off your mega slot-which is the main selling point of rain in UU, ofc I'm referring to megaswamp. Having dual swimmers in the rain adds immense offensive pressure because between the rain boosted waterfalls and hydro pumps, you will be putting holes in the other team. Rain is better in UU than any other tier rn and not just because of megaswamp. UU has a plethora of tools for rain to take advantage of:

1: UU is home to many water types that love to be in the rain.
2: UU is home to many hard hitting fire types that are much easier to deal with under rain.
3: UU is home to various other mons that aren't water but can significantly benefit from rain being up. For example flying types can now spam hurricane reliably which bcomes a very strong STAB with no drawbacks, electric types can now spam thunder reliably which becomes a very strong STAB with no drawbacks, toxicroak/tenta/helio/blastoise get some much needed passive recovery under rain, grass/steel/bug types have an easier time due to rain nerfing fire attacks, and goodra/vaporeon no longer fear status under rain. I think this sums it up well.

These are reasons rain is so viable in UU. Rain is the reason Toad is viable in UU.
 
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Actually Moltres needs FB to OHKO offensive mons so your statement is false. It can't always rely on Hurricane's typing or power, not to mention the poor accuracy. The combination of Fire Blast and Hurricane is what gives Moltres it's flame, and if you remove that then you're better off using any other fire type (which you usually are in any case).
You say my statement is false... But I never said it OHKOes things with Flamethrower, I said it can severely damage them... We have seen in the RMT of the week a very good Moltres with Flamethrower btw.
 

Kink

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While there is no doubt swamp is better than toad, my opinion is that toad actually benefits from megaswamp being a thing in UU.

Here's why:

Mega swamp and toad have considerable overlap and function in a very similar fashion under rain. If you are running megaswamp without rain you are doing it wrong. That said, toad has a niche as a viable option for rain teams that can soften up the other side for mega swamp to clean up and vice versa; toads freedom to run a hard hitting special set really helps, thanks sludge wave. It gives rain teams more room to breathe by taking pressure off your mega slot-which is the main selling point of rain in UU, ofc I'm referring to megaswamp. Having dual swimmers in the rain adds immense offensive pressure because between the rain boosted waterfalls and hydro pumps, you will be putting holes in the other team. Rain is better in UU than any other tier rn and not just because of megaswamp. UU has a plethora of tools for rain to take advantage of:

1: UU is home to many water types that love to be in the rain.
2: UU is home to many hard hitting fire types that are much easier to deal with under rain.
3: UU is home to various other mons that aren't water but can significantly benefit from rain being up. For example flying types can now spam hurricane reliably which bcomes a very strong STAB with no drawbacks, electric types can now spam thunder reliably which becomes a very strong STAB with no drawbacks, toxicroak/tenta/helio/blastoise get some much needed passive recovery under rain, grass/steel/bug types have an easier time due to rain nerfing fire attacks, and goodra/vaporeon no longer fear status under rain. I think this sums it up well.

These are reasons rain is so viable in UU. Rain is the reason Toad is viable in UU.
There are many more viable options for a rain team. Swift swim seismitoad is a gimmick at best and isn't even the set that brings up the argument of ranking toad in the first place.

At above, I really don't care what the RMT of the week is, and it's not conducive to this conversation. We're taking about overall feasibility in the form of viability, ranked in specific ways to make determinations on the pokemon's placement in the tier. I applaud you for finding one team where Moltres works. I'm sure I can make 10. As YABO stated, it's accuracy alone will forfeit games before they start. I suggest you look at the mon without bias by comparing them to other flying and fire types and determining whether or not Moltres actually does something better than any one of them. We're not questioning whether or not Moltres belongs in UU, we're questioning that you think it's viable beyond that of extreme support.
 
There are many more viable options for a rain team. Swift swim seismitoad is a gimmick at best and isn't even the set that brings up the argument of ranking toad in the first place.

At above, I really don't care what the RMT of the week is, and it's not conducive to this conversation. We're taking about overall feasibility in the form of viability, ranked in specific ways to make determinations on the pokemon's placement in the tier. I applaud you for finding one team where Moltres works. I'm sure I can make 10. As YABO stated, it's accuracy alone will forfeit games before they start. I suggest you look at the mon without bias by comparing them to other flying and fire types and determining whether or not Moltres actually does something better than any one of them. We're not questioning whether or not Moltres belongs in UU, we're questioning that you think it's viable beyond that of extreme support.
"I am sure I can make 10"... You like giving yourself airs... The RMT of the week IS conductive, because it gave reasons that improve Moltres in this meta: the prevalence of Conkeldurr, Sylveon and Celebi is good to Moltres as it can punish all of them, especially Conk and Celebi.
 
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