Other Metagames Analysis Discussion

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I know this may be still theorymon, but maybe we need to replace Scald by Steam Eruption on all STABmons analyses when Volcanion gets released due to it being a direct upgrade no?
 

baconbagon

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I know this may be still theorymon, but maybe we need to replace Scald by Steam Eruption on all STABmons analyses when Volcanion gets released due to it being a direct upgrade no?
I'd rather approach this on a case-by-case basis. Scald still has an excellent PP stat unlike Steam Eruption, which makes it the preferred STAB move for bulkier Water-types. I'll try to edit Steam Eruption into the analyses of Pokemon that would use it, such as Keldeo, but yeah let's wait until it comes out so we can see what happens.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
well how does it work?
Skill Swap gives opponents Imposter (used vs. Sub mons). It used to activate immediately, turning the opponent into Chansey. Now it just replaces their ability with Imposter, but doesn't immediately activate (it only activates upon switchin, not as soon as the user acquires it, ih8 tested this in-game), thus no longer neutering mons behind Subs, so I assume the QC team would want to change that move to something more useful, such as one of the slashes on the fourth slot (King's Shield or Metal Burst) or a pivoting move, such as Parting Shot. I'll leave that decision up to them though, as I don't use Imposter :P
 

baconbagon

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So uh Steam Eruption is actually a broken move

I'm thinking of changing the sets to:

[SET]
name: All-Out Attacker
move 1: Water Spout / Origin Pulse
move 2: Secret Sword
move 3: Steam Eruption
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Icy Wind / Hidden Power Bug
item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
ability: Justified
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Here, Origin Pulse is a strong and reliable attack with high PP that doesn't become less effective with Life Orb recoil unlike Water Spout.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Secret Sword
move 3: Steam Eruption
move 4: Icy Wind / Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Bug
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Justified
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Choice Scarf Keldeo is pretty free to run Water Spout + Steam Eruption, given that it rarely actually clicks attacks that often and doesn't need to break down bulkier teams with a high PP Water-type attack. 16 PP combined is absolutely fine for revenge killing and cleaning, especially as Secret Sword is usable too.

Also I don't really like HP Bug on this set, it's horribly weak and doesn't get the KOes that it needs to, whereas Specs actually puts a dent in Celebi

although in any case, Scald should stay in SubCM which needs a more reliable STAB and doesn't mind the loss in power due to its ability to boost quickly. Thoughts?
 
So I have a few suggestions.

Firstly on the Chansey analysis, we had talked about it in chat with a couple of other BH players, but I think the first three slots should be Whirlwind / Parting Shot / Recovery. The vast majority of the time when chansey can't transform it's because of a sub or another imposter and ww + parting shot is guaranteed to phase out everything including magic bounce while giving chansey a pivoting move. Recovery is pretty obvious. Fake out is quite situational since Illusion isn't really used that much, fake out still loses to ghost illusion, and even then chansey can just phase it out or click metal burst.
I suggest we change to:
move 1: Whirlwind
move 2: Parting shot
move 3: Milk Drink / Wish
move 4: Fake Out / Metal Burst / Spiky Shield / King's Shield
And then add in "moves" that spiky shield should always be used with wish and that wish + parting shot makes chansey a good wishpasser.
Also worth adding that chansey can run half happiness since it gives it half the power on return while having more than twice the bulk of the opponent.

Rayquaza should have a specs set, I think it's different enough from the standard aerilate set to warrant a set on it's own. And potent enough in the meta to be on the analysis.
Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Specs
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Boomburst
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Focus Blast / Origin Pulse / Trick
+Satk is necessary to get the 2HKOs on Chansey / Aegislash / Registeel. -Def is chosen so that ray can check protean sets that lack Boomburst or a move to hit it super effectively. Techno Blast is necessary because the last thing Specs Ray wants is to get walled by Soundproof. Extreme Speed is still powerful coming off a base 180 Atk and Focus Blast / Origin Pulse are here to take down Rock types in Sand like Sand Stream Ttar who can take two specs Boombursts and OHKO back. Origin Pulse is easier to Imposterproof but has less utility than focus blast. Trick is filler.
Also needs mixed adapt set.

Finally Shadow Tag Gengar is definitively good enough to have a set on the analysis because of the immense pressure it puts on any defensive pokemons since it can take out ANY defensive pokemon that has neither magic bounce or is a ghost type.
Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Illusion / Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe or 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Perish Song
- King's Shield / Baton Pass
- Roost / Sludge Wave
Aside from the first two move, I don't know if that's the optimal set. Gengar's point is to switch on a defensive pokemon like Ho-Oh, Chansey, Yveltal, Maudino.... as they recover and force it into that move with encore. Sludge wave heavily damage Magic Bounce Maudino, Baton Pass avoids a pursuit rk and King's Shield can help taking out a pokemon that doesn't hurt gengar as much like Mega Diancie (252 Atk Pixilate Mega Diancie Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mega Gengar: 118-139 (36.5 - 43%)).
Gengar can also run a sub + shell smash pass set with encore which can be really threatening.

Anyway, curious to know what the BH qc think.
 
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As I see it, the BH Protean ban is going to require minor changes to virtually every analysis and major changes to some, including basically a complete reconstruction of the Mewtwo analysis. How should we go about doing this?
i'd say just cms stuff that's easy and then redo ones with like 7+ edits yeah
 
i'd say just cms stuff that's easy and then redo ones with like 7+ edits yeah
I suggested some potential edits for Chansey, Rayquaza, Diancie, and Registeel over the CMS and found that Gengar is already devoid of mentions of Protean. Will continue at some point. I think the main analyses that will need to be redone are Mewtwo (both formes) and Latios.
 
I suggested some potential edits for Chansey, Rayquaza, Diancie, and Registeel over the CMS and found that Gengar is already devoid of mentions of Protean. Will continue at some point. I think the main analyses that will need to be redone are Mewtwo (both formes) and Latios.
Let me know which ones need to be redone and we can get them worked out asap! Thank you! :)
 
I suggested some potential edits for Chansey, Rayquaza, Diancie, and Registeel over the CMS and found that Gengar is already devoid of mentions of Protean. Will continue at some point. I think the main analyses that will need to be redone are Mewtwo (both formes) and Latios.
Someone did this. Not sure who though! If you notice anything else please alert me!
 

baconbagon

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The BH Diancie analysis mentions Choice Scarf Primal Groudon in C&C:

Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon can switch in and take at least one hit from Mega Diancie, depending on its investment and set, and can potentially outspeed and OHKO Mega Diancie with the Ground-type move of its choice, if it carries Choice Scarf. If Mega Diancie runs enough Special Attack investment, however, Primal Groudon cannot switch in safely without a Choice Scarf. On the other hand, if it gets a free switch, it does not need a Choice Scarf to take out Mega Diancie.

Can someone submit a rewritten paragraph, either in this thread or in the CMS if badged? Thanks
 
The BH Diancie analysis mentions Choice Scarf Primal Groudon in C&C:

Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon can switch in and take at least one hit from Mega Diancie, depending on its investment and set, and can potentially outspeed and OHKO Mega Diancie with the Ground-type move of its choice, if it carries Choice Scarf. If Mega Diancie runs enough Special Attack investment, however, Primal Groudon cannot switch in safely without a Choice Scarf. On the other hand, if it gets a free switch, it does not need a Choice Scarf to take out Mega Diancie.

Can someone submit a rewritten paragraph, either in this thread or in the CMS if badged? Thanks
Maybe try this?:

Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon can switch in on and take any one attack from Mega Diancie thanks to its good bulk and fire typing. Once in, it threatens an OHKO with any commonly run move. If Diancie runs enough spa investment, however, Primal Groudon can be 2HKO'd and defeated. Should Primal Groudon get a free switch, however, it wins regardless of which Diancie set is used.
 
The BH Diancie analysis mentions Choice Scarf Primal Groudon in C&C:

Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon can switch in and take at least one hit from Mega Diancie, depending on its investment and set, and can potentially outspeed and OHKO Mega Diancie with the Ground-type move of its choice, if it carries Choice Scarf. If Mega Diancie runs enough Special Attack investment, however, Primal Groudon cannot switch in safely without a Choice Scarf. On the other hand, if it gets a free switch, it does not need a Choice Scarf to take out Mega Diancie.

Can someone submit a rewritten paragraph, either in this thread or in the CMS if badged? Thanks
Maybe try this?:

Primal Groudon: Primal Groudon can switch in on and take any one attack from Mega Diancie thanks to its good bulk and fire typing. Once in, it threatens an OHKO with any commonly run move. If Diancie runs enough spa investment, however, Primal Groudon can be 2HKO'd and defeated. Should Primal Groudon get a free switch, however, it wins regardless of which Diancie set is used.
I elaborated and sent this as the edited version:

**Red Orb Groudon**: Red Orb Groudon can take any one attack from Mega Diancie thanks to its excellent bulk and Fire typing. However, many Red Orb Groudon, especially those with minimal HP, Defense, or Special Defense investment, can be easily knocked out in two hits by a move like Boomburst or Techno Blast if Mega Diancie has Special Attack investment or by a move like Precipice Blades if Mega Diancie has Attack investment. That being said, should Primal Groudon get a free switch, it wins regardless of which Mega Diancie set is used, making it an adequate check overall.

edit: I don't want to double post so here's some other news:

I submitted edits to remove mentions of Protean from Tyranitar, Dialga, Shedinja, Yveltal, and Kyurem-Black.

Couple of things I noticed:

Ho-oh needs a lot of work because so much of its niche was checking Protean.
Mega Gyarados needs a new EV spread because its past one was made to allow it to survive Protean Mega Mewtwo Y's Moonblast.
 
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baconbagon

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is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I elaborated and sent this as the edited version:

**Red Orb Groudon**: Red Orb Groudon can take any one attack from Mega Diancie thanks to its excellent bulk and Fire typing. However, many Red Orb Groudon, especially those with minimal HP, Defense, or Special Defense investment, can be easily knocked out in two hits by a move like Boomburst or Techno Blast if Mega Diancie has Special Attack investment or by a move like Precipice Blades if Mega Diancie has Attack investment. That being said, should Primal Groudon get a free switch, it wins regardless of which Mega Diancie set is used, making it an adequate check overall.

edit: I don't want to double post so here's some other news:

I submitted edits to remove mentions of Protean from Tyranitar, Dialga, Shedinja, Yveltal, and Kyurem-Black.

Couple of things I noticed:

Ho-oh needs a lot of work because so much of its niche was checking Protean.
Mega Gyarados needs a new EV spread because its past one was made to allow it to survive Protean Mega Mewtwo Y's Moonblast.
Thanks a lot, all implemented!

[BH] Ho-Oh is up for reservation again (or someone can put together some edits that I will merge in)

MAMP could you put together a new EV spread for Mega Gyarados?

Quantum Tesseract your paragraph looks pretty good; try maintaining the Spelling and Grammar Standards next time (2HKOed, Special Attack investment, Mega Diancie)
 
Hi everyone! I'm happy to announce that I've edited Regigigas, Mega Venusaur, Arceus, some of Mega Gyarados, and Regirock to remove mentions/implications of Protean, at long last. (morogrim's still unfinished Mega Mewtwo Y analysis was pretty helpful in figuring out what Mega Mewtwo Y is currently running, something I wasn't entirely sure of, so thanks to him for that.) This means that all of my minor edits are complete for now (unless someone finds something that still needs to be changed or has a better suggestion for one of the changes I made; I wouldn't be too surprised) and only a few more things have to be done to bring us up to date completely with regards to the Protean ban:
  • morogrim's Mega Mewtwo Y analysis needs to be completed (I plan on QC checking this soon)
  • A new Mega Mewtwo X analysis needs to be completed
  • A new Mega Latios analysis needs to be completed (or the Protean set can just be eradicated and we can leave only Tinted Lens, but I bet there are other ideas around)
  • The Set Details section of Mega Gyarados' Mold Breaker set needs to be changed. If anyone has a good EV spread for that set in mind, please let me know or post it in this thread.
Looking down the viability rankings, here are some high-viability Pokemon whose analyses still need to be completed (ones in progress are italicized):
  • Giratina
  • Aegislash
  • Groudon
  • Mega Audino
  • Mega Latias
  • Slaking
  • Mega Blaziken
  • Mega Metagross
  • Xerneas
If you'd like to write about any of the non-italicized ones above or any Pokemon in C+, C, or C- rank, feel free to let us know here.

P.S. If anyone is feeling rather ambitious, you can double-check me on my Protean removals. I'm open to constructive criticism!
 
Have you added a specs set for mega Ray too?
Not yet. If the mods are okay with it I'd be happy to let someone (you?) reserve that and write it as its own thing which I could add in

added needed analyses and specs ray to reservations op - bacon
 
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