Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Merritt

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Horsea (yes trade) should be E tier because dragon scales are ridiculously rare in these versions. Also, have the Treecko and Zubat discussions concluded? I don't see any sort of resolution.
Calling it ridiculously rare is a little bit of a stretch, it's just a matter of using thief on Horsea that you fish until you get one, but after taking another look at Kingdra it's not really all that amazing. Definitely better than Seadra, but still comes late and with a lackluster movepool outside the Surf and Ice Beam that almost every water type gets. Moved it down to E.

Zubat's going to stay at C unless I see other support for a rise to B. The early period of training it really is very painful and the payoff for it just isn't amazing. Compared to Magikarp, the training period is similar, but Magikarp's evolution happens right around Strength time, making it immediately more powerful than even Crobat. Calcs were done with a level 22 15 IV Gyarados and Crobat (yes I'm aware you can't get a level 22 Crobat) on the exact same level 20 Numel to show power disparity.

40 Atk Gyarados Strength vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 34-40 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Crobat Wing Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 30-36 (50 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's pretty much the same with Thrash vs Fly (which again, Gyarados is getting well before Crobat gets Fly). Sludge Bomb does bridge this gap, but as a one time only TM that pokemon like Vileplume, Breloom, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel would all make good use of as well, so this does count against Crobat. Even beyond this, Gyarados also has heavy HM usage, getting several essential ones so it can constantly support the team while Crobat has Fly. This is ultimately what pushes Magikarp up to B while Zubat should remain C.

On a note of other Flying-types, Skarmory's now in C as well. Its defensive abilities paired with moderately decent power was what originally had it as B but that was clearly overestimating it after I just did a run trying to use it. Skarmory was definitely useful, but it wasn't really great at all.

In that same run I used Treecko and while I still personally think it's a B rank mon I would be alright with A as well. I'm planning to move it to A unless there's some heavy pushback in the discussion, so I'm making it the main talking point.

Treecko --> A or stay B
 
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Calling it ridiculously rare is a little bit of a stretch, it's just a matter of using thief on Horsea that you fish until you get one, but after taking another look at Kingdra it's not really all that amazing. Definitely better than Seadra, but still comes late and with a lackluster movepool outside the Surf and Ice Beam that almost every water type gets. Moved it down to E.
Okay.
Zubat's going to stay at C unless I see other support for a rise to B. The early period of training it really is very painful and the payoff for it just isn't amazing. Compared to Magikarp, the training period is similar, but Magikarp's evolution happens right around Strength time, making it immediately more powerful than even Crobat. Calcs were done with a level 22 15 IV Gyarados and Crobat (yes I'm aware you can't get a level 22 Crobat) on the exact same level 20 Numel to show power disparity.

40 Atk Gyarados Strength vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 34-40 (56.6 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
40 Atk Crobat Wing Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Numel: 30-36 (50 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's pretty much the same with Thrash vs Fly (which again, Gyarados is getting well before Crobat gets Fly). Sludge Bomb does bridge this gap, but as a one time only TM that pokemon like Vileplume, Breloom, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel would all make good use of as well, so this does count against Crobat. Even beyond this, Gyarados also has heavy HM usage, getting several essential ones so it can constantly support the team while Crobat has Fly. This is ultimately what pushes Magikarp up to B while Zubat should remain C.
Despite the not-the-best physical attack stat, Zubat works partially because of good offensive typing. There are quite a few grass type opponents around gyms 4-6, and Tate and Liza and Steven are pretty much the only notable late-game opponents that use flying-resistant Pokemon. Zubat is also fast and relatively bulky, so it can make up for not hitting hard by hitting more times. Also, I don't really get how Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel make better use of sludge bomb (though Breloom probably does), as they either get no STAB or hit even less hard. Even if Zubat was worse than Magikarp, it can still be B tier, right?
On a note of other Flying-types, Skarmory's now in C as well. Its defensive abilities paired with moderately decent power was what originally had it as B but that was clearly overestimating it after I just did a run trying to use it. Skarmory was definitely useful, but it wasn't really great at all.
Okay.
In that same run I used Treecko and while I still personally think it's a B rank mon I would be alright with A as well. I'm planning to move it to A unless there's some heavy pushback in the discussion, so I'm making it the main talking point.

Treecko --> A or stay B
I've already said pretty much everything I have to say about Treecko, so I won't be saying much more until someone continues arguing for B tier placement.
 
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I would like to ask why Aron is considered D tier Pokemon. I was thinking about using it along with Trapinch in my Emerald playthrough but I'm not sure. It has adequate attack, amazing defence and usable early STAB options (Metal Claw and Rock Tomb) while having many useful resistances (albeit possessing horrible weaknesses as well). This is a serious question, not a complaint about tiering.

In that same run I used Treecko and while I still personally think it's a B rank mon I would be alright with A as well. I'm planning to move it to A unless there's some heavy pushback in the discussion, so I'm making it the main talking point.

Treecko --> A or stay B
I've recently beaten Ruby with Sceptile and Breloom in my team and I can't really say they should be in the same tier.
The thing about Treecko is that its type (coupled with its poor movepool) simply doesn't let it easily faint other Pokemon. It is average against Brawly, borderline useless against Wattson (Magnemite line resists everything Grovyle has and Voltorb can just selfdestruct on you), actually useless against Flannery etc. Of course, Sceptile is significantly better in later parts of the game, however it can still struggle against Wallace's ice coverage.
I've mentioned Treecko's awful coverage so let me expand upon this issue. While Leaf Blade is an excellent STAB (which you get midgame), it is often resisted and our little guy would appreciate some coverage. Sadly, Dragon Claw, Brick Break and Return are acquired too late. Dig was nerfed hard in gen 3. Aerial Ace and Rock Tomb are pretty bad. Sumwun mentioned Strength in his posts, however it is only slightly better than NVE Leaf Blade (unless it's quad resisted). And I would like to stress this - if you have 85 base attack and your coverage is 80 BP normal type move, you have a problem.
Bottom line, Treecko struggles too hard between Roxanne and Lilycove in Ruby. It doesn't deserve A rank.

On the other hand, Breloom was really good. I was surprised how effective Bulk Up, Leech Seed and Mach Punch were. Later acquired Sky Uppercat was just insane, destroying most of the opponents in 1-2 hits.

On a side note: I've also used Solrock in my Ruby playthrough and it was pretty damn effective. While it does require a lot of grinding (coins for Psychic, 31 level for Cosmic Power and 37 level for Rock Slide), it doesn't have problems beating a lot of trainers (mainly due to abundance of fighting, bug and flying types). Still, it may not be enough to escape D rank considering how awful Game Corner is in this game.
 
I've recently beaten Ruby with Sceptile and Breloom in my team and I can't really say they should be in the same tier.
The thing about Treecko is that its type (coupled with its poor movepool) simply doesn't let it easily faint other Pokemon. It is average against Brawly, borderline useless against Wattson (Magnemite line resists everything Grovyle has and Voltorb can just selfdestruct on you), actually useless against Flannery etc. Of course, Sceptile is significantly better in later parts of the game, however it can still struggle against Wallace's ice coverage.
I've mentioned Treecko's awful coverage so let me expand upon this issue. While Leaf Blade is an excellent STAB (which you get midgame), it is often resisted and our little guy would appreciate some coverage. Sadly, Dragon Claw, Brick Break and Return are acquired too late. Dig was nerfed hard in gen 3. Aerial Ace and Rock Tomb are pretty bad. Sumwun mentioned Strength in his posts, however it is only slightly better than NVE Leaf Blade (unless it's quad resisted). And I would like to stress this - if you have 85 base attack and your coverage is 80 BP normal type move, you have a problem.
Bottom line, Treecko struggles too hard between Roxanne and Lilycove in Ruby. It doesn't deserve A rank.

On the other hand, Breloom was really good. I was surprised how effective Bulk Up, Leech Seed and Mach Punch were. Later acquired Sky Uppercat was just insane, destroying most of the opponents in 1-2 hits.
Treecko's early game problems can be reduced quite a bit by the bullet seed TM on Route 104. It also sweeps most things in the last gym in 1-2 hits, so ice attacks aren't a problem. While it does have a few low points between Wattson and Lilycove City, they aren't significant enough because nearly half of the game happens after Lilycove City.
As for the comparison to Shroomish, Shroomish suffers from most of the same problems that Treecko does. Shroomish has an even worse early game, with Treecko's same bad level up movepool and much lower offensive stats. It also sucks against Brawly, Wattson, and Flannery, and it's also weak to ice. Treecko does have coverage problems, but fighting attacks aren't "just insane" either. Once past Lilycove City, fighting is more resisted than grass, and it wasn't a ton better to begin with. Shroomish's coverage moves, such as sludge bomb, also come pretty late. If tiers could be decided by comparing two specific evolution families, then Treecko is at the very least on par with Shroomish.
I would like to ask why Aron is considered D tier Pokemon. I was thinking about using it along with Trapinch in my Emerald playthrough but I'm not sure. It has adequate attack, amazing defence and usable early STAB options (Metal Claw and Rock Tomb) while having many useful resistances (albeit possessing horrible weaknesses as well). This is a serious question, not a complaint about tiering.
On a side note: I've also used Solrock in my Ruby playthrough and it was pretty damn effective. While it does require a lot of grinding (coins for Psychic, 31 level for Cosmic Power and 37 level for Rock Slide), it doesn't have problems beating a lot of trainers (mainly due to abundance of fighting, bug and flying types). Still, it may not be enough to escape D rank considering how awful Game Corner is in this game.
I agree with these.
 

Merritt

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I would like to ask why Aron is considered D tier Pokemon. I was thinking about using it along with Trapinch in my Emerald playthrough but I'm not sure. It has adequate attack, amazing defence and usable early STAB options (Metal Claw and Rock Tomb) while having many useful resistances (albeit possessing horrible weaknesses as well). This is a serious question, not a complaint about tiering.
Aron's main issues can be summed up as a typing that fails to shine in most major battles and evolutions that frankly just come a bit late for their payoff. I actually use Aron more often than I probably should because I think Aggron is a cool pokemon, so I'll go through a mixture of my experiences and what Aron should/should not be able to do beyond that. Aron's best point is honestly right around when you catch it, since it's coming basically with Headbutt and Metal Claw or at least incredibly close to them, and has the option to take the only slightly contested Rock Tomb TM you just got. At this point you have a pokemon with more than respectable attack for that point in the game, an interesting defensive typing backed up by a sky high defense stat, and access to both STABs (granted at 50 BP) and a relatively high power coverage move for that point in Headbutt.

This is immediately unable to be put into any real use due to Brawly being a fighting type gym leader and absolutely annihilating Aron. The next major fight afterwards with the rival has both Marshtomp and Combusken as a complete wash due to their secondary STAB, although Grovyle isn't overly difficult for Aron to beat, though still somewhat annoying. In Ruby and Sapphire the Wailmer is also very difficult if not almost impossible, and both the Shroomish and the Numel are both unpleasant for Aron to try and deal with. In Emerald the Wingull instead of Wailmer is much easier to deal with due to Rock Tomb being much more effective, and both the Slugma and Lombre (since Lombre's best move is Absorb instead of Shroomish's Mega Drain) are significantly more plausible to deal with.

Wattson is a chore for Aron. While Aron does handily stop Voltorb's Selfdestruct from being a threat, the electric STAB attacks every member of his team has hurt a lot due to Aron's lackluster Special Defense and HP. The Magneton (and Magnemite in RS) are arguably the easiest to deal with due to the Mud Slap Aron has - absolutely horrific vs every other opponent but finally getting some potential use - but even then it's still a weak non-STAB move and Aron's attack is no longer as stellar as it was just a little while before.

Maxie/Archie at Mt Chimney is the next major battle in your way and at this point Aron is getting old and you just want to get to evolution please so Aron can stop being so dead weightish. Mt Chimney does set the tone for basically all of Magma and Aqua vs Aron though, basically being that Aron does amazingly well vs all Poochyena and Zubat lines and is basically a dead stop for most of Team Aqua in general including Archie since Archie's best shot is right there with Sharpedo's Crunch. The next battle has him relying on Swagger and Slash (woo hoo). Maxie and Team Magma meanwhile have Poochyena and Zubat that are just as ineffective but the Numel lines that so many of them just completely ruin Aron and evolution's day since virtually all of them have Magnitude or Earthquake. Overall Numel is hilariously good vs the team that likes water for basically the entire game, but struggles vs Team Magma whenever they use Numel is an accurate summary of Aron vs evil teams.

Flannery is the next major battle and it doesn't go quite as well as you might hope. One of Aron's flaws that I haven't gone into huge detail about is that it's really slow, so it's often taking hits before it gets a chance to retaliate, burning through healing items more than faster pokemon do. This shows up somewhat in Flannery's gym, though many of Flannery's own Pokemon are slow so you might be able to take them out before they nail Aron with high powered STAB attacks on its poor special defense. Aron definitely does better in RS than Emerald though.

Norman is arguably the major battle where Aron finally gets a chance to shine, and remember earlier when I said that right after getting it was Aron's high point? I lied, this is Aron's high point, right here and in this battle. Without Norman getting incredibly lucky Aron should be able to take Norman without much issue, purely due to its resistances. You've also probably just gotten to Iron Tail at this point, and who better to try it on than Norman? Just don't use it on the second Slaking in RS, nothing worse than missing it when Slaking goes for Focus Punch. If you've ground past Norman with Aron up to 32 and evolution to Lairon things are even easier due to Lairon's flat out superior stat spread.

Before Winona ideally Aron's evolved into Lairon which has helped patch up its flagging attack stat back to "good" levels. Aron's weaknesses and strengths are just highlighted with this evolution, although its weaknesses are slightly patched up. Lairon's special bulk is still lacking, its speed is still terrible and you get hit first more often than not still, but your defense continues to be sky high and your attack, backed up by your shiny new high BP move Iron Tail, is pretty good.

Route 119 Rival and Aron depends almost entirely on whether or not you've managed to get to evolution, which is a higher level than this rival battle's ace. If you have not evolved, Ruby and Sapphire rival is a complete wash, don't even bother really since the only thing you have a shot against is the Shroomish, even Grovyle is probably 1v1ing Aron. As Lairon this changes slightly, since you can probably take on Grovyle at that point and almost certainly beat Shroomish. Numel, Wailmer, Combusken, and Marshtomp are implausible to beat. In Emerald the prospects are much better, since Lombre is terrible depending on which move Nature Power turns into (I believe it's something that doesn't change the matchup right there), Pelipper is only running Wing Attack, and Slugma doesn't have Magnitude like Numel does. Aron can almost definitely beat Pelipper, Slugma, and most likely Lombre depending on what Nature Power is, and still really needs to be Lairon to take on Grovyle.

Winona seems like an idea fight at fight from Lairon's typing alone - especially if you gave Lairon Rock Tomb and honestly why wouldn't you? However, a significant portion of Winona's team is pretty difficult for Lairon, specifically the Pelipper and Altaria. Pelipper is beatable, although it'll do a very large amount of damage to Lairon first. Altaria is a dead cause - it has Earthquake in all versions which Lairon cannot handle. Skarmory and Tropius are both plausible to beat, but they're also very annoying to try and take out, particularly Skarmory. If you still have Aron at this point, which is completely possible since level 32 before Winona is something you could not hit, especially with something as annoying to grind as the slow Aron, you can almost definitely beat the Swablu or the Swellow, but the Tropius and Skarmory are a less likely cause without items. Pelipper also multiplies in difficulty.

Next is Lilycove Rival, who's almost identical to the Route 119 Rival only you should definitely have a Lairon by this point. Matchups are basically the same, although there's now a Swellow you eat for breakfast and Emerald Rival insists on proving they're a moron by Combusken in Emerald having Quick Attack instead of Double Kick, so now Lairon eats it for breakfast too.

After this your next major battles are Team Aqua/Magma who I summarized overall matchup earlier, and then we finally get to Mossdeep. At this point Lairon is very difficult to use vs average trainers as well, since you're on the water and Lairon is a rock type and slow. RS Tate and Liza are pretty simple for Lairon, both being weak to steel and the most threatening move being Solrock's Flamethrower which doesn't hit all too hard unless Solrock gets sun up. Emerald is much more difficult since Lairon cannot afford to be out until Claydol dies since Earthquake is still Earthquake.

After this there's more Aqua/Magma as summarized much earlier, and then finally you're at Sootopolis gym for your next major battle. Odds are you're not Aggron right now, since 42 is somewhat tricky to actually arrive at since your main opposition up to this point has been Hoenn's oceans. You might have arrived there by feeding off Team Magma's Poochyena and Zubat and Team Aqua in general, but I wouldn't put money on it. Regardless, this would only change your matchup in a small way, since now you probably beat the Luvdisc. Other than that it's a water type gym and they all actually have a STAB move, what did you expect?

Aggron continues its pre evolution trend of not taking much from anything except fighting and ground physical attacks, hitting actually pretty hard at this point, being slow as hell, and having mediocre at best special defense. As Aggron you get access to a pretty cool move in Brick Break which is actually pretty contested and Aggron probably doesn't really need it even though it'd like it, and you've only recently gotten Earthquake which is just the most heavily contested physical TM you'll get so good luck Aggron. Regardless, giving Aggron these moves turns it into a slow but powerful physical attacker with several strong options, although Rock Tomb is still your Rock STAB. You also get a bunch of special TMs but Aggron's special attack is absolutely terrible so don't bother - they're worth nothing on Aggron outside the "cool" factor.

At this point we're at the League for major battles. Wally you do fairly well against except Magneton if you don't have Brick Break or Earthquake, but if you're bringing Aggron this far you honestly should. Aggron probably won't take on all of Wally's team, they do wear him down with (resisted) special attacks since Aggron is slow, but he can take on at least one, probably two or three without items.

Elite Four I'm going to sum up very briefly.

Sidney: Does pretty well especially since you're probably a higher level if you're fighting league, Cacturne is annoying and Sharpedo/Crawdaunt are inadvisable to fight.

Phoebe: Will-o-Wisp from Banette sucks and Dusclops 2 has Earthquake but otherwise it's just a slugfest that you win due to type and power alone.

Glacia: In RS both Sealeo and Walrein have Water STAB as well as their Ice moves. Avoid fighting them. In Emerald this is only the case for Walrein, so you can take on the Sealeo. Glalie is no challenge and is weak to your Steel STAB.

Drake: Weird bastard, you should definitely beat Shelgon and Altaria, in RS one of his Flygon has Dig and the other Sand Attack so you can stay out for at least one turn vs either of them, Salamence is annoying due to Intimidate and a fairly strong Flamethrower, Emerald Flygon has Earthquake and Kingdra has surf so don't fight them.

The Champion is obviously very different between RS and Emerald, but neither of them are really favorable to Aggron. Steven first, where his Metagross and Claydol are both washes and unless you feel confident your Aggron is faster and you've given it Earthquake so is Steven's Aggron due to all three having their own Earthquake. Armaldo and Cradily aren't too hard to take down as long as your iron tail doesn't miss over and over, but Skarmory is a prolonged battle that you definitely win if you use items and probably win even if you don't, but he's also going to wear you down and get spikes up. I'd advise somebody else for Skarmory there.

I would be incredibly surprised if an Aggron at comparable levels managed to take out more than one of Wallace's pokemon, and I'd even be caught slightly off guard if Aggron managed to 1v1 any of them. Wallace is a bad matchup for Aggron.

These have been overall a mixture of my experiences with Aron and looking in more depth at the movepools of major battles, and I hope this more clearly explains why I believe Aron is much more a D rank pokemon than any other rank. Sorry for the absolutely massive post, I actually quite like Aron and so had a lot to say about it.
 
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Shroomish has an even worse early game, with Treecko's same bad level up movepool and much lower offensive stats. It also sucks against Brawly, Wattson, and Flannery, and it's also weak to ice. Treecko does have coverage problems, but fighting attacks aren't "just insane" either. Once past Lilycove City, fighting is more resisted than grass, and it wasn't a ton better to begin with. Shroomish's coverage moves, such as sludge bomb, also come pretty late. If tiers could be decided by comparing two specific evolution families, then Treecko is at the very least on par with Shroomish
I would like to point out that Shroomish CAN beat Wattson with Leech Seed, Stun Spore and Mega Drain, however it would take a long time and be pretty annoying. And if that is not enough, you are able to get Breloom (which completely destroys Wattson) by that point in the game. As for coverage move - Strength is really all you need since 130 base attack is just insane. You don't need coverage for ghost type since there are too few of them in the game.
Also, Fighting moves coming from 130 base attack ARE much better than grass moves coming from 105 base SpA until Lilycove. After Lilycove, the only things I remember being trouble for Breloom were Maxie's Camerupt, Wallace's Milotic and Wally's Gardevoir (and these can still be beaten 1v1 if you Bulk Up in advance). I am not listing any of E4's members because I don't feel like checking everyone's movesets. I do acknowledge that it has problems with trainers like Phoebe there for example.

Sorry for the absolutely massive post, I actually quite like Aron and so had a lot to say about it.
Absolutely no need for apologizing, I am very grateful for your satisfactory answer. I guess I will use Aggron in my future OmegaRuby playthrough instead of Emerald one. Babying both Aron and Trapinch is not ideal.
 
I would like to point out that Shroomish CAN beat Wattson with Leech Seed, Stun Spore and Mega Drain, however it would take a long time and be pretty annoying. And if that is not enough, you are able to get Breloom (which completely destroys Wattson) by that point in the game. As for coverage move - Strength is really all you need since 130 base attack is just insane. You don't need coverage for ghost type since there are too few of them in the game.
Also, Fighting moves coming from 130 base attack ARE much better than grass moves coming from 105 base SpA until Lilycove. After Lilycove, the only things I remember being trouble for Breloom were Maxie's Camerupt, Wallace's Milotic and Wally's Gardevoir (and these can still be beaten 1v1 if you Bulk Up in advance). I am not listing any of E4's members because I don't feel like checking everyone's movesets. I do acknowledge that it has problems with trainers like Phoebe there for example.
You are right about Breloom being better at using strength and sky uppercut due to its good physical attack. However, Breloom learns sky uppercut kind of late, and when it does, regular trainers start throwing lots of stuff like Pelipper, Tentacruel, and Gyarados at it. If something like Shroomish can be A tier without helping much against these, then an evolution family that sweeps all these can definitely be A tier. Also, are you sure that Breloom has an easier time against Tate and Liza than Sceptile does?
 
You are right about Breloom being better at using strength and sky uppercut due to its good physical attack. However, Breloom learns sky uppercut kind of late, and when it does, regular trainers start throwing lots of stuff like Pelipper, Tentacruel, and Gyarados at it. If something like Shroomish can be A tier without helping much against these, then an evolution family that sweeps all these can definitely be A tier. Also, are you sure that Breloom has an easier time against Tate and Liza than Sceptile does?
In Ruby, Pelipper, Tentacruel and Gyarados are much less common than their unevolved forms in trainer battles (yes, even after Lilycove). Breloom can OHKO Wingull, Tentacool and Magikarp and I reckon it can win against their evolved forms as well, although with certain risk.
Breloom is obviously worse than Sceptile against Tate and Liza, however it is a double battle and you should have Pokemon with Surf under your disposal at this point of the game. This is why I didn't list them. It's still a valid point, I do not deny that.

You seem to think that Breloom struggles in late game which simply is not true. Its low point is its early game (before it evolves). If you want a proof then have this recording of 3 different battles against Gyarados which you considered troublesome for Breloom:
EDIT: I've checked the same battle with my 38 lv Sceptile. It needed 3 Leaf Blades to faint Gyarados (the second one left it at ~15% HP).
 
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In Ruby, Pelipper, Tentacruel and Gyarados are much less common than their unevolved forms in trainer battles (yes, even after Lilycove). Breloom can OHKO Wingull, Tentacool and Magikarp and I reckon it can win against their evolved forms as well, although with certain risk.
Breloom is obviously worse than Sceptile against Tate and Liza, however it is a double battle and you should have Pokemon with Surf under your disposal at this point of the game. This is why I didn't list them. It's still a valid point, I do not deny that.

You seem to think that Breloom struggles in late game which simply is not true. Its low point is its early game (before it evolves). If you want a proof then have this recording of 3 different battles against Gyarados which you considered troublesome for Breloom:
I agree with much of what is said here (esp. the lack of fully evolved water pokes), but I would point out that while Breloom can beat Gyarados, it was pretty inefficient. The first battle necessitated bulking up, leech seeding and then still only 2HKOing with Strength. The second battle was a 4HKO with strength (if I counted correctly) and the 3rd battle was a mix of the two. Inefficiency hurts a pokes ranking, but I actually still think Breloom can be good enough for A (early grass type - helpful if skipping Treecko, fighting STAB provides good coverage, and pretty good matchups in major battles)
 
How is Feebas not E tier when it probably takes longer to find Feebas than it takes to beat the game with a Goldeen?
Is Zubat going to move up now or what?
Clamperl (Huntail) is listed before Clamperl (Gorebyss). This typo should probably be fixed.
 

Merritt

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How is Feebas not E tier when it probably takes longer to find Feebas than it takes to beat the game with a Goldeen?
Is Zubat going to move up now or what?
Clamperl (Huntail) is listed before Clamperl (Gorebyss). This typo should probably be fixed.
Sorry that was a mistake, Feebas is E.

To elaborate - Feebas is in E purely due to difficulty in finding it and the additional time and resources spent even after finding it to get it to evolve since you need to throw a bunch of Pokeblocks at it.

Fixed the Huntail and Gorebyss typo.

Zubat's going to stay at C unless I see other support for a rise to B.
Hasn't happened, and you haven't presented any new compelling arguments for it either.
 
The OP already explicitly told you it's not.
Hasn't happened, and you haven't presented any new compelling arguments for it either.
Despite the not-the-best physical attack stat, Zubat works partially because of good offensive typing. There are quite a few grass type opponents around gyms 4-6, and Tate and Liza and Steven are pretty much the only notable late-game opponents that use flying-resistant Pokemon. Zubat is also fast and relatively bulky, so it can make up for not hitting hard by hitting more times. Also, I don't really get how Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel make better use of sludge bomb (though Breloom probably does), as they either get no STAB or hit even less hard. Even if Zubat was worse than Magikarp, it can still be B tier, right?
 
This is my explanation for why Groudon and Kyogre should be B tier. I'm very aware that I'm oversimplifying everything, but I think it's enough to get my point across.
An evolution family is tiered according to how much it helps with the run. For the sake of example, and because this is kind of close to the truth, imagine that Kyogre is usable for the last 1/4 of the game, but is somehow versatile enough to one-shot everything. Also, let's say that a typical B tier family is obtainable very early and usable for the entire game, but can only one-shot about 1/4 of its opponents. Kyogre and that B tier family have about the same amount of opportunity to help, so by this logic, they should be in the same tier.
One obvious flaw to this logic is that a Pokemon obtained later will eat up less experience, but this flaw alone is not enough to raise Groudon and Kyogre to A tier. Do the two deserve to move down, or am I missing another, bigger flaw?

Also,
Despite the not-the-best physical attack stat, Zubat works partially because of good offensive typing. There are quite a few grass type opponents around gyms 4-6, and Tate and Liza and Steven are pretty much the only notable late-game opponents that use flying-resistant Pokemon. Zubat is also fast and relatively bulky, so it can make up for not hitting hard by hitting more times. Also, I don't really get how Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel make better use of sludge bomb (though Breloom probably does), as they either get no STAB or hit even less hard. Even if Zubat was worse than Magikarp, it can still be B tier, right?
Is this or is this not a valid argument?
 

Merritt

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This is my explanation for why Groudon and Kyogre should be B tier. I'm very aware that I'm oversimplifying everything, but I think it's enough to get my point across.
An evolution family is tiered according to how much it helps with the run. For the sake of example, and because this is kind of close to the truth, imagine that Kyogre is usable for the last 1/4 of the game, but is somehow versatile enough to one-shot everything. Also, let's say that a typical B tier family is obtainable very early and usable for the entire game, but can only one-shot about 1/4 of its opponents. Kyogre and that B tier family have about the same amount of opportunity to help, so by this logic, they should be in the same tier.
One obvious flaw to this logic is that a Pokemon obtained later will eat up less experience, but this flaw alone is not enough to raise Groudon and Kyogre to A tier. Do the two deserve to move down, or am I missing another, bigger flaw?
I'm not going to agree or disagree with the nomination, but I'd like to discuss the logic you use here.

I disagree with the premise of availability vs usefulness being such a major factor. The fact is that, generally speaking, the endgame is usually more difficult than the earlygame, at least partly because you're expected to have more options to deal with it. For that reason, a pokemon who can take on Gym 8 solo I'd rate more valuable than something that could solo Gym 3 if that was the absolute only thing either pokemon could contribute.

This obviously would never be the case, the pokemon who could take on a gym earlier in the game would definitely have some value elsewhere, even if it was just weakening a later pokemon and similar for the late gym pokemon.

Beyond that, however, I disagree with the reverse of this premise. A pokemon like Poochyena contributes very little to gym battles overall, but generally speaking can take out a single (generally the weakest) pokemon at every gym except Roxanna and Tate&Liza. It's also capable of some HM utility, can take on most average trainers, and can at the very least weaken troublesome major battle pokemon. By that logic, Poochyena is a pokemon who's available for the entire game, but has use against maybe 1/5th of it. This should of course shoot Poochyena out of D tier and into maybe one tier lower than Groudon/Kyogre. Similar logic exists for the Wurmple line, perhaps even more so since they both completely annihilate Brawly, Dustox is pretty useful vs Norman due to Protect vs Slaking, and Beautify has catching utility as well as all but invalidating the various grass type route trainers.

The logic itself is skewed way too heavily towards early availability for that reason, which is why I think it's not good logic.

Despite the not-the-best physical attack stat, Zubat works partially because of good offensive typing. There are quite a few grass type opponents around gyms 4-6, and Tate and Liza and Steven are pretty much the only notable late-game opponents that use flying-resistant Pokemon. Zubat is also fast and relatively bulky, so it can make up for not hitting hard by hitting more times. Also, I don't really get how Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, and Tentacruel make better use of sludge bomb (though Breloom probably does), as they either get no STAB or hit even less hard. Even if Zubat was worse than Magikarp, it can still be B tier, right?
The grass type opponents are generally speaking route trainers, which are not particularly difficult for almost any trained Pokemon that's not at a disadvantage to handle unless you're underleveled, since with only a few exceptions they have IVs of 5 or less. Crobat isn't frail, but it's also not amazingly bulky, and at a certain point more speed is just overkill. Vs most major opponents there's not a lot of difference between base 90 speed and base 130 speed, particularly with EVs factored in - both are going to hit the opponent first.

While Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, Tentacruel, and Breloom might not make strictly better use of the Sludge Bomb TM compared to Crobat, it does reduce their ability to be used effectively by taking it away from them. Essentially, by using the Sludge Bomb TM on Crobat it says that if you planned to use any of these Pokemon (with the arguable exception of Breloom since it just would appreciate it, not need it) their usefulness is going to be impacted fairly heavily. Crobat might be the best user, but it does hurt these otherwise fine pokemon and so the cost should be accounted for.
 
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Crobat isn't frail, but it's also not amazingly bulky, and at a certain point more speed is just overkill. Vs most major opponents there's not a lot of difference between base 90 speed and base 130 speed, particularly with EVs factored in - both are going to hit the opponent first.
It's still bulky enough to help a lot against Wally and three Elite Four members. The fact that not a single Elite Four Pokemon resists flying also makes Crobat good.
While Vileplume, Cradily, Crawdaunt, Tentacruel, and Breloom might not make strictly better use of the Sludge Bomb TM compared to Crobat, it does reduce their ability to be used effectively by taking it away from them.
Now I see your point about Vilplume and Tentacruel, but Crawdaunt and Cradily were pretty bad to start with. Do they really get that much worse when denied access to sludge bomb?
 
This is my explanation for why Groudon and Kyogre should be B tier. I'm very aware that I'm oversimplifying everything, but I think it's enough to get my point across.
An evolution family is tiered according to how much it helps with the run. For the sake of example, and because this is kind of close to the truth, imagine that Kyogre is usable for the last 1/4 of the game, but is somehow versatile enough to one-shot everything. Also, let's say that a typical B tier family is obtainable very early and usable for the entire game, but can only one-shot about 1/4 of its opponents. Kyogre and that B tier family have about the same amount of opportunity to help, so by this logic, they should be in the same tier.
One obvious flaw to this logic is that a Pokemon obtained later will eat up less experience, but this flaw alone is not enough to raise Groudon and Kyogre to A tier. Do the two deserve to move down, or am I missing another, bigger flaw?

Also,Is this or is this not a valid argument?
I'll say the same thing here that I did in the DPPt thread. This oversimplifies things by trying to apply an arbitrary formula, which is generally bad logic so if you yourself admit it's overly simple, then you should fix it. Merritt summed up the rest of it pretty well, but I would also say that your idea of a "typical B family" is an overgeneralization. We can't assume what a B family is (in terms of some formula to determine tiering) exactly because every poke is different and has its pros and cons that resulted in it landing in said tier. Again, experience with said poke is crucial in a spot like this.
 
The fact is that, generally speaking, the endgame is usually more difficult than the earlygame, at least partly because you're expected to have more options to deal with it. For that reason, a pokemon who can take on Gym 8 solo I'd rate more valuable than something that could solo Gym 3 if that was the absolute only thing either pokemon could contribute.
Later-game performance is more valuable than earlier-game performance, right? Then doesn't that mean an evolution family that takes some time to start working but finishes strong, like Treecko, can be A tier?
 
Later-game performance is more valuable than earlier-game performance, right? Then doesn't that mean an evolution family that takes some time to start working but finishes strong, like Treecko, can be A tier?
It can be, but again it's different in every situation. We can't just generally say "this poke is good for late-game, so A tier." Pros and cons have to examined with user experience adding credibility. If then, it is decided that the poke fits in A tier, then it will be placed there. Basically if it's a poke's placement is too close to call, then the more valuable experience (in this case late game usage) can help it reach the higher tier.
 
I disagree with Rayquaza (Emerald) being A tier. It honestly should be S tier. Even though Rayquaza is a very late encounter, it just comes at such a massive level difference that it greatly outweighs its one flaw. All it takes is two small detours. A few second detour in the Aqua Hideout to obtain the Master Ball, and a 5 minute detour back to Sky Pillar after the story event to chuck the Master Ball at. At level 70, it greatly outlevels your team (and everyone else) by at the very least 25 levels. With its massive base 150 offenses, it OHKOs nearly every encounter except for maybe Glacia's Walrein. Due to the level difference it can even survive her Ice Beams at full health unless you have terrible IVs. It beats down Juan with zero issues, roflstomps the victory road, and slams through the E4, as well as destroying Wallace too. Even speedrunners go out of their way to catch Rayquaza due to the immediate benefits it gives. If the only argument one can give to make Rayquaza A tier is its late encounter, when it trivalizes every encounter it can participate in, it's not really a sound argument.
 
I disagree with Rayquaza (Emerald) being A tier. It honestly should be S tier. Even though Rayquaza is a very late encounter, it just comes at such a massive level difference that it greatly outweighs its one flaw. All it takes is two small detours. A few second detour in the Aqua Hideout to obtain the Master Ball, and a 5 minute detour back to Sky Pillar after the story event to chuck the Master Ball at. At level 70, it greatly outlevels your team (and everyone else) by at the very least 25 levels. With its massive base 150 offenses, it OHKOs nearly every encounter except for maybe Glacia's Walrein. Due to the level difference it can even survive her Ice Beams at full health unless you have terrible IVs. It beats down Juan with zero issues, roflstomps the victory road, and slams through the E4, as well as destroying Wallace too. Even speedrunners go out of their way to catch Rayquaza due to the immediate benefits it gives. If the only argument one can give to make Rayquaza A tier is its late encounter, when it trivalizes every encounter it can participate in, it's not really a sound argument.
The issue with Rayquaza is purely how late it is. That is its only flaw, but it's a significant one. No other pokemon in any game comes close to its dominance in the end of the game, but at that point you're left with 6 major fights (7 if you include Wally) if you choose to go get Rayquaza before Juan. I and a couple other people who I talked about the preliminary rankings with agreed it was A purely due to availability, but it's definitely the best of A and very close to S. If there's a consensus for S then I'd be happy to move it up.
In other words, "every encounter it can participate in" is still not very many encounters.
 
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The thing is, once you get Rayquaza in Emerald, you've essentially won the game. It's not like the other Mascots where it pulls a lot of weight but ultimately is just a team member, Rayquaza is more than capable of soloing the rest of the game just thanks to the massive level difference and Dragon's coverage. It covers the hardest area in the game (Victory Road), the last 7 major battles (including Wally as a Rival), and takes virtually no investment or effort to do so beyond using the Master Ball to speed up the fight, which it's more than worth.
 

Merritt

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The thing is, once you get Rayquaza in Emerald, you've essentially won the game. It's not like the other Mascots where it pulls a lot of weight but ultimately is just a team member, Rayquaza is more than capable of soloing the rest of the game just thanks to the massive level difference and Dragon's coverage. It covers the hardest area in the game (Victory Road), the last 7 major battles (including Wally as a Rival), and takes virtually no investment or effort to do so beyond using the Master Ball to speed up the fight, which it's more than worth.
This is absolutely true, and I 100% agree that Rayquaza is a level of power higher than the other mascot legendaries (in every game honestly), but at the same time, like I said in a previous post, it still has the issue of being incredibly late - it is the third latest Pokemon in the game, with only Bagon and Mawile being later - and I feel like that needs to be reflected somehow. For that reason I'd honestly be more inclined to lower Groudon and Kyogre than raise Rayquaza if that's the main concern.

While I don't feel that availability should be the most heavily weighed factor, it should come in at some point. Rayquaza has one flaw and its name is availability. This was actually a heavily discussed topic back in the last thread and I made sure to bring it up with almost every person I talked to when making the preliminary rankings since it was one of the larger discussion points.

I personally feel that Rayquaza is the most potent A rank except maybe Zangoose, but ultimately that's what it should be; while Rayquaza solos the game from the moment that you get it with essentially 0 investment it's only doing it for a small portion of the game. While that might sound like I'm parroting sumwun's flawed argument earlier about some mathematical usefulness/availability ranking, I do think that the availability is a large enough factor to keep Rayquaza out of S. I'd honestly like to see an argument for why Rayquaza's incredibly large availability gap isn't able to keep it from being S, keeping in mind that availability is a factor in deciding a ranking.

S rank Rayquaza is a possibility that's there, but I would need a really good reason to justify S rank for a Pokemon who's only around for just slightly over a quarter of the major battles in the game. Every other S rank can certainly contribute more up to the point of Rayquaza's obtainability, and while they don't annihilate the lategame like Rayquaza does, they are still able to contribute incredibly significantly when not just stomping everything using Rayquaza.
 
This is absolutely true, and I 100% agree that Rayquaza is a level of power higher than the other mascot legendaries (in every game honestly), but at the same time, like I said in a previous post, it still has the issue of being incredibly late - it is the third latest Pokemon in the game, with only Bagon and Mawile being later - and I feel like that needs to be reflected somehow. For that reason I'd honestly be more inclined to lower Groudon and Kyogre than raise Rayquaza if that's the main concern.

While I don't feel that availability should be the most heavily weighed factor, it should come in at some point. Rayquaza has one flaw and its name is availability. This was actually a heavily discussed topic back in the last thread and I made sure to bring it up with almost every person I talked to when making the preliminary rankings since it was one of the larger discussion points.

I personally feel that Rayquaza is the most potent A rank except maybe Zangoose, but ultimately that's what it should be; while Rayquaza solos the game from the moment that you get it with essentially 0 investment it's only doing it for a small portion of the game. While that might sound like I'm parroting sumwun's flawed argument earlier about some mathematical usefulness/availability ranking, I do think that the availability is a large enough factor to keep Rayquaza out of S. I'd honestly like to see an argument for why Rayquaza's incredibly large availability gap isn't able to keep it from being S, keeping in mind that availability is a factor in deciding a ranking.

S rank Rayquaza is a possibility that's there, but I would need a really good reason to justify S rank for a Pokemon who's only around for just slightly over a quarter of the major battles in the game. Every other S rank can certainly contribute more up to the point of Rayquaza's obtainability, and while they don't annihilate the lategame like Rayquaza does, they are still able to contribute incredibly significantly when not just stomping everything using Rayquaza.
Rayquaza should be S because when its power is so much higher than anything else, availability doesn't matter nearly as much. Availability has to be considered for pokes like Shroomish or Ralts because they don't come at an inordinately high level like Rayquaza (they come at levels similar to the other pokes / trainers in the area, weakening their overall advantage early on). No other pokemon is obtained at Level 70, giving such a massive advantage over opponents even if it is for a shorter period of time.
 
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