Serious Political Correctness and Race

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Chou Toshio

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Edit 2020: While I generally still favor non-political correctness, and I prefer social norms that allow more, and humorous examinations of difference... and yes, I still generally disagree with a policing or reactionary identity politics that serves to alienate or draw lines rather than bridge differences... the line of argument of the original OP I wrote disturbs me quite a bit now.

I do think special consideration is needed for underserved, disadvantaged, and frankly historically oppressed groups-- but whatever your identity or whatever your preference for social norms, I think that we should all try to act in good faith and step towards the understanding that should come from common humanity. Intersectionality is about forming empathy, transcending difference, and ultimately creating solidarity. That goes for those of all forms of oppressed and privileged. Empathy to acknowledge histories and systems of difference in order to move towards reparations, but also grounds for welcome and understanding and forgiveness.

And for the most part, focusing on what is deep and fundamental, and crucial, and overlooking that which is superficial. That's the sentiment I had in my original OP that I still believe, but do have a changed view in how much empathy the task requires.
 
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My opinion on this would take some time to write out, so before I start, can you tell me how exactly you define "political correctness"? The term has become quite muddied, I think, so I don't want to argue against something you're not saying.

I will say this:
I have a clear opinion in this, and it's related to my opinion on the video I posted and my view of Trump voters-- that these happenings are in part the monstrous consequences of forcing an agenda on people; of forcing people to be more than people, and better than human nature can be realistically expected to be. If you cannot defuse, if you cannot let down your guard, you cannot be true neighbors.

And if you're not neighbors... you can't hear the real cries of help and desperation that need answering-- like what we're seeing in rural USA and in poor white UK.
By telling people not to "force an agenda on people" (force how?) and instead reach out to their "neighbours", who are attacking them, are you not the one expecting them to be more than human? This, to me, is a pretty blatant case of shifting the responsiblity to the victim, something I'm not willing to do. Also, I'm not american, but I'd wager that "let those stupid white people die in their poverty, we only want equality for ourselves" is not a relevant political stance. Again, though, I might be misunderstanding you because I'm not sure what the actual point of contention is.
 
for starters, the thread u linked was written in jest and was just trying to bait responses. if u read the caps it spells cucks for trump.

i read your spheal, and would you mind clarifying your views though? it seemed unclear what you deemed too be "too politically correct" and "crossing the line"?

in general, i've found that people who typically are opposed to political correctness simply wish to assholes. quite ironically, the purpose of "political correctness" is in order to allow for a plurality of viewpoints. the opposition tends to not realize that free speech is lifted, not hampered, thru curtailing silencing language. as mntnd in the op, racial jokes are very muddy because there is a hegemonic, historical power dynamic, and often minority groups are the butt of the joke. much like in media, where fatness or queerness is seen as a gimmick in acting, there are still very evident examples of inequalities in our day to day lives. the reinforcement of these power dynamics is a silencing tactic, plain and simple.

wrt to recent events: blatant ableism, racism, jingoism was exemplified thru our election in the past year; trump himself championed his cause as an opposition to "pc culture". the spawning of the alt-right is through the manifestation of this disdain. the radicalization of white men was seen like none other. r/the_donald is but a microcosm of the true communities at large--far less heinous, too. these alt-righters felt that their whiteness was under attack and wanted to maga thru removing feminist and minority progression. donald won in part because his sexism, racism, etc. attracted these ppl, not deterred, and this is why we need to set sanctions for what is conducive to conversation more than ever.



and yes, much like the extremists in opposition are dangerous, i'll keep in mind the examples of the "pc culture" getting out of hand. i definitely have problems with destroying conversation and silencing ppl thru fear and outrageous policy. these outliers aren't worth discrediting an entire ideology of being a decent fucking human being though. yes the "feminists" who are offended by u looking at them are ridiculous. but the thing is, these ppl didn't nominate our president.

we can talk about race. we can talk about sex. we can talk about rape. we can also do it in a way that allows everyone involved to feel the conversation is accessible. people take this ideology to extremes, much like any other ideology. working to create a space in your community which promotes equality and plurality is what we can all set out to do.

in general, the movement is just about caring for people. a "pc movement" to curtail uses of "dumb", "stupid", etc. may receive a lot of flak, but perhaps if you listened to the curators of the discussion, you'd learn a thing or two too.
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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If you grow up in a truly racially mixed place, you wouldn't fear or even feel uneasy when talking about race at all.
You won't even fear a single bit when people make stereotypes of your race.

It seems to me that people in the UK view stereotypes very differently from USA.
In the UK, at least when I lived in the UK, stereotypes were perfectly ok, and people make them all the time without being offended.
I've been in a small private school, but despite only having 200 students, we came from 28 different countries.
We also had plenty of exchange students from France and Germany every year.
But according to people on Smogon, in the USA, stereotypes are seen as part of racism.

Black people in the UK had generally no problems with Asians touching their hair. They don't mind. Some of them even likes it when Asians touch their hair, making them feel special. Everyone was happy and giggling. No one's pissed.
But according to American media, black people are supposed to get offended if people want to touch their hair.

In the UK, people are very encouraged to talk about the culture of their countries. Nearly every single meal.
People asked me many questions about Hong Kong and China in general.
People ask people what are the good stuff, or stuff they like about their own country.
Many black people legitimately come from Nigeria, and actually spend their holidays in Nigeria, and they taught us interesting stuff about Nigeria.
Everyone found learning about other cultures to be interesting.


But Americans don't like this at all.
At least, American Smogonites have acted like people introducing good stuff of a country is supposed to be having superiority problems.

Sometimes people make fun of each other's accent. For laughs. No one's pissed.
But in America, making fun of an Asian's accent is supposed to be offensive.

In the end, who makes more friends from different ethnic backgrounds?
Certainly not the Americans.
Have you ever been to America or do you continue to just pull shit out of your ass like you do in literally every other thread?

Like referencing Americans on smogon is really fucking dumb because you don't actually /know/ who is American and you are looking at a very specific subset of the population.

Also the UK is far less racially diverse than the United States as a whole, like what are you even talking about.
 

Cresselia~~

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Have you ever been to America or do you continue to just pull shit out of your ass like you do in literally every other thread?

Like referencing Americans on smogon is really fucking dumb because you don't actually /know/ who is American and you are looking at a very specific subset of the population.
No, but there is enough American media on Youtube and Twitter, and so on.
Plus I actually have American friends who work in Asia.

You can actually tell who is American quite easily.
 
there is a historical context of ownership over black bodies so yes guess what sometimes ppl don't like their fuckin hair touched. that's so invasive anyway if you don't even know someone. consent is a thing

it's all about context, relationship, etc.

i just don't understand your posts cresselia honestly
 

atomicllamas

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Stereotype breakers do exist. But the majority of the population are going to fit in the stereotypes.


Got to love how Americans constantly love to believe they are better than UK or Europe as a whole.
Which is exactly why you can identify Americans so easily.
I said America is more racially diverse than the UK which is a statistical fact, I never said that this made America superior to the UK. For the record I do not think America is the best country in the world, nor do I think I'm superior to anyone for being born in America, I find blind patriotism pretty off putting.
Ask, and I will try to clarify.

My stance is, the American version of political correctness (which isn't that emphasized in the UK) is flawed.





This study supposed that being born in another country makes you more diverse.
It supposed that having more people of color makes a country more diverse.
This is not what I meant.
Having a lot of people of different ethnic backgrounds around you, does not necessarily increase your chance of making friends with these people.

If you aren't peaceful and comfortable around each other, no matter how many colored people there are, you don't make friends with them.
Except you have no idea how much the average American interacts with people of different races, your assumption that the average American has less diverse friend groups is completely unfounded on anything other than what you are apparently getting from smogon (how does this lead to your conclusion?) or youtube and twitter (again how is this leading to your conclusion?). Your stance is also completely uninformed as a non-american who uses Smogon / twitter / youtube as the basis for your knowledge on America/Americans.

Prove what you post, don't invent a stereotype and use that as an argument, it makes you look stupid.
 

atomicllamas

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Whilst friend making may be statistically difficult to prove, statistics on interracial marriage is easy to prove.
The percentage of interracial marriage is much higher in the UK than in the USA.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xed-number-diverse-families-soars-decade.html

And I find interracial marriage to be very honest-- whilst you can pretend to be nice to colored people if you are just making friends, you can't really pretend when it's a marriage.
This states that in the UK 9% of couples living together identified as an ethnically mixed couple. In 2013 in the United States 12% of newly weds married someone of a different race.
 

atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Also notice how you've managed to make this thread which was supposed to be about political correctness into a thread where you are arguing (wrongly) that the UK is more racially diverse than the United States by the false definition that racial diversity means a higher rate of interracial marriage. This is the "prove blacks aren't inferior" of the 2016 election thread all over again.
 

Cresselia~~

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Also notice how you've managed to make this thread which was supposed to be about political correctness into a thread where you are arguing (wrongly) that the UK is more racially diverse than the United States by the false definition that racial diversity means a higher rate of interracial marriage. This is the "prove blacks aren't inferior" of the 2016 election thread all over again.
But thats because people asked me questions and I had to clarify
 
Even though I have never lived in Iran, my dad has been raised there until the age of twenty. From what he has told me about people there, it seems that they don't care about differences in racial appearance. I'm not sure how well this applies outside of Tehran, but the government seems to emphasize discrimination by religion more than ethnicity. If anyone had to utilize satire, Iranians seem to make fun of their own culture and government more than others'.
 
What I don't understand is why people feel the need to impose their views like theirs is the only one that matters and pretend that there are no other valid viewpoints. It just feels to me that people are too eager to turn topics like these into something like "If you aren't with me completely, you are dumb and wrong" etc. And even if someone genuinely felt that way and doesn't want to pretend otherwise in an attempt to have a discussion with others, what is the point in attempting to force your viewpoint on me if you aren't even going to consider the things I have to say?

I think it's very good that there are people willing to discuss topics like these in a serious manner without hostility (for the most part). Even if I don't agree with everything they have to say, I understand those positions better and where people are coming from. I really appreciate posts and people that try to explain things and engage with others seriously. What I don't understand is what is the purpose of being openly hostile and mocking other people who may not understand your side or disagree with parts of it?

Like giving a example specific to this site: what's the point in posting a troll thread to bait responses about SJWs? Granted, that was a pretty good troll given how long it took me to figure it out. But there's also other posts made by certain users in this subforum who are quite obviously aren't making any attempts at actually discussing things and are just trolling because ??? Does making posts and threads like that make you feel better about your side? Is it something for you and your friends to laugh about it an IRC/discord channel? Like that's what I don't get. At that point it's just circlejerking how morally superior you are to everyone else and what's the good in that?

This is what turns me off of "political correctness" and "SJWs" or whatever. I am 100% for social justice and treating others better/fairly. I am 100% for combating injustice and inequality that occurs due to race, sexual orientation, whatever. But that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything someone has to say. And if you can't respect that, and want to make fun of me or others as a result, then why should I respect you or your opinions?
 

Chou Toshio

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Alright, I'll admit that the opinions I outlined in the OP are not well organized-- but it's a topic with a lot of nuance, so it's not like it's easy to outline what type of conduct should/should not be expected in society and by proponents of progressive social positions. I will try to give better context in the below responses; but to be clear, there's no clear black and white here. But then, that IS my point--

That issues of race are contentious and complicated, but that's why it's better to have cultural/social norms that allow for vagueness, breath-room, and slow cross-acceptance-- instead of demanding black and white, right and wrong. Hawaii is a lot more diverse and multi-racial, but it's also got the Polynesean and Asian cultural influences that innately push us towards a social norm more accepting of moral vagueness, and putting a greater emphasis on building relationships/preserving harmony/letting the other side save face.

It may be difficult for people from a purely western background, with its thought squarely sat astride a culture developed for logical thinking and science to conceptualize what I'm trying to say, or even be comfortable with it.

Putting it simply though-- you can win a battle and lose a war. You can win an argument, but stoke the flames of hate.

And what I'm trying to say by bringing an Asian mindset, a vague mindset here, is that there's no correct answer. I can't give you a list of situations of when it's good to point out a mis-placed micro-aggression and begin a dialogue on it, and when it's best to let that white grandma cashier register touch your hair, or ask you what country you're from (hey! I'm a 4th generation American, but my family comes from China and Japan. Why thank you, I'm also proud of my English). It's difficult, but there's got to be more patience and humanity from the progressive side if we want to actually change people and not provoke greater hate and divide.

dice
My opinion on this would take some time to write out, so before I start, can you tell me how exactly you define "political correctness"? The term has become quite muddied, I think, so I don't want to argue against something you're not saying.

I will say this:

By telling people not to "force an agenda on people" (force how?) and instead reach out to their "neighbours", who are attacking them, are you not the one expecting them to be more than human? This, to me, is a pretty blatant case of shifting the responsiblity to the victim, something I'm not willing to do. Also, I'm not american, but I'd wager that "let those stupid white people die in their poverty, we only want equality for ourselves" is not a relevant political stance. Again, though, I might be misunderstanding you because I'm not sure what the actual point of contention is.
I understand you were just throwing together a quick response, but it's also an over-simplification.

There is a difference between times when you are, in the moment, a victim-- and times when you are interacting with others on a daily basis. There seem to be many progressives that demand that others conform to their view of polite/correct conduct, down to every second and interaction of our lives-- constantly pointing out micro-aggressions and pointing out the vileness of even mild-mannered and un-ill-intended offenses.

The point of the video was that constantly stacking up those expectations for conduct didn't help, doesn't help in changing the way people think. It is VERY effective in setting the mind of new generations who happen to be raised in those progressive areas and surrounded by those ideas-- but it NOT AT ALL effective at changing racists, or in areas with high influence of racists, or simply too far from urban center to experience the full effect of those cultural transformations.

There is no question that society has made progress, but what we have also done is in fact, build a bigger divide, charge the racial tensions, alienated millions of whites and made them feel estranged from their own country(ies).

There's an incredibly enlightening piece in the video I linked, where Trevor, again once a leader of the UK's multi-cultural fostering race policies, commented:

"Martin Luther King gave us a new set of ideals. But sometimes, ideals are not enough to achieve lasting change.

Revolutions have a way of getting out of hand. What starts as a march of liberation, can become thought control, and worse. Unwittingly, I think we gave birth to an ugly new doctrine.

The new doctrine says this:
1) All whites are alike.
2) All whites are guilty, and tainted.
3) No white person should ever criticize someone who's not white."

Most individual progressives will say that this is over simplifying their views and not what they are saying-- but THINK about how we talk about white privilege, checking your privilege, that no white person can ever understand their privilege. While many progressives might not mean to create an absolutist dogma, the fact is that many people experience it that way. And that can draw lines in the sand, and lead to scary things; the repercussions are-- well, they're in Brexit, and they're in the US President Elect and his cabinet of deplorables right now.




Here's another point of reference-- you wouldn't walk into a village in the mountains of the Middle East and call them bigots and monsters for the way they treat women, demand that they stop trading children in their village judicial processes, and call them offenders of micro-aggression for wanting to touch your hair. That wouldn't be at all productive, it wouldn't liberate anyone, and it certainly wouldn't be good for building a relationship, or understanding.

Especially when so much of the trouble in the middle east, especially in regards to the West, has come about because the west has and is coming and telling them right and wrong-- and holding peoples who haven't been through the same industrial and thought revolutions as us how to think and act and be; even worse when we do it to a people who's cultural vantage point is one extremely against rapid change, and steeped in revering tradition.



Now, you may think "that's the middle east, a totally different situation in completely different countries," but the dynamics here are much the same. In the US, people underestimated the disconnect between liberal cities and slowly changing rural areas. What we are doing is VERY similar to my theoretical situation in the middle eastern village-- that is the degree to which people don't understand their fellow Americans. Yes they are a part of our country, and therefore a part of the society we need to build, but that just means we need even greater sensitivity going forward. Because, while I'd agree with someone like Jon Stewart that no one owns America, this is their country as well-- and neither side can escape the other.


People praise "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" without accepting what those things actually are and mean-- a diversity of CULTURE, the fact that people are not going to agree, and that people are coming from completely different backgrounds of tradition and vantage point. If you want peace in that context, you do need thicker skin, and a willingness to "live and let live."

Moving to progress is good, but forcing your views on a people not ready for them can be really, really bad. Patience, forgiveness, incremental progress, and yes a healthy dose of shared, light-hearted racist joking along the way is a much better path to peace and understanding.


I'm Asian. My best friend in highschool was whiter than a ping pong ball. He would constantly joke about my height and short Asians, and bitch (rightfully) about being the target of anti-white racism. I'd never shy away from a haole (white) joke in his presence either. Both of us made Mexican jokes like no one's business, because hey-- "there are no Mexicans in Hawaii because it's too far to swim here." Ultimately though I never could have asked for a more loyal friend, and within the context of our shared Hawaii culture, this was completely normal. We are extremely different, but we are Ohana, we are family. (As would be any Mexicans who FLY out here to join the community)



In closing, here's a quote from an interview about Trump voters and poor whites:

"Viewed like this, all the talk about “political correctness” isn’t about any specific substantive point, as much as it is a way of expanding the scope of acceptable behavior. People don’t want to believe they have to speak like Obama or Clinton to participate meaningfully in politics, because most of us don’t speak like Obama or Clinton."
 
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TheValkyries

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My favorite trend is SJW posts full explanation of their viewpoint and how being respectful and mindful of power dynamics of race/sexuality/gender/class is beneficial and inclusive to disagreement and discussion and then someone comes in and says that race/sexuality/gender/class differences are all imagined and you're making it up. Naturally there's not much to discuss there other than "wtf you're literally just trying to say that none of what we say actually matters at all" so the response is angry and frustrated and then someone makes a post like jalmonts saying "why can't you respect differing opinions" with literally 0 nothing nada self awareness.

Literally the most liked post in the thread outside of OP. Perfection.

Edit: Every discussion goes this way "power dynamics exist along these fracture lines" "I don't see it that way" "*historical data and context*" "Im minority and I have non minority friends. We make fun of other minorities all the time and also sometimes white people! White people can be okay!"

It's individual analysis in the face of a systemic problem that's precisely the jig. Everyone is culpable and responsible but that doesn't make them bad humans. But racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/classism all have always been viewed/treated as an individual disease that rots a person to their core. For some reason they not only fail to but refuse to parse that simple reality that we SJWs and pc police are talking about things bigger than individual shit.
 
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My favorite trend is SJW posts full explanation of their viewpoint and how being respectful and mindful of power dynamics of race/sexuality/gender/class is beneficial and inclusive to disagreement and discussion and then someone comes in and says that race/sexuality/gender/class differences are all imagined and you're making it up. Naturally there's not much to discuss there other than "wtf you're literally just trying to say that none of what we say actually matters at all" so the response is angry and frustrated and then someone makes a post like jalmonts saying "why can't you respect differing opinions" with literally 0 nothing nada self awareness.

Literally the most liked post in the thread outside of OP. Perfection.

Edit: Every discussion goes this way "power dynamics exist along these fracture lines" "I don't see it that way" "*historical data and context*" "Im minority and I have non minority friends. We make fun of other minorities all the time and also sometimes white people! White people can be okay!"

It's individual analysis in the face of a systemic problem that's precisely the jig. Everyone is culpable and responsible but that doesn't make them bad humans. But racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/classism all have always been viewed/treated as an individual disease that rots a person to their core. For some reason they not only fail to but refuse to parse that simple reality that we SJWs and pc police are talking about things bigger than individual shit.
It is difficult for me to respond, since I am sure that for every person who is as reasonable as I think I am, I know that there are plenty of people who are equally unreasonable, but I'll try my best.

Your post seems to me like a vast oversimplification of the discussions that take place, both for me personally and the majority of posts I see in this forum and what I see and hear in real life. I really wish it was as simple as how you put it because we could ignore those who are denying such issues exist and focus on enacting actual change. I personally believe there is quite a bit of nuance involved when discussing race/sexuality/gender/class issues and that with regards to those issues, I may not completely agree with someone on them. It seems like you feel there should be/is no nuance with those topics. That's totally ok, but I don't think that makes me automatically wrong just because I do not believe cultural appropriation is an important issue or remotely racist or whatever (as an example). Really, that shouldn't even be a barrier of what I think is a more important discussion, namely, how do we go about changing these things?

So with no disrespect to your perspective, my own personal perspective is that most discussions do not go the way that you seem to think they do and that oftentimes these conversations contain a bit more subtlety beyond what you feel most discussions contain. I'm sorry that you think that that is a result of my own personal failing (and if that is the case then we probably have nothing to discuss), but if that's really what you think, then perhaps I (and certainly many others I would presume) truly do lack self-awareness. If that's the case, then what then? You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. What happens next?

I'm also not sure why you brought up likes given that plenty of different people make posts that garner lots of likes. Not only is it not relevant but I could easily bring up posts by "SJWs" or whatever you want to call them that get a lot more likes than I do if you haven't noticed lol. Some of those posts also happen to break forum rules but hey...

If all of this is beyond "individual shit," which I definitely believe, what solutions can you offer us that will bring us feasible change? Let's talk about that then. I am totally interested in a discussion on how we can solve societal racism and bring about equality.
 

Soul Fly

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My favorite trend is SJW posts full explanation of their viewpoint and how being respectful and mindful of power dynamics of race/sexuality/gender/class is beneficial and inclusive to disagreement and discussion and then someone comes in and says that race/sexuality/gender/class differences are all imagined and you're making it up. Naturally there's not much to discuss there other than "wtf you're literally just trying to say that none of what we say actually matters at all" so the response is angry and frustrated and then someone makes a post like jalmonts saying "why can't you respect differing opinions" with literally 0 nothing nada self awareness.

Literally the most liked post in the thread outside of OP. Perfection.

Edit: Every discussion goes this way "power dynamics exist along these fracture lines" "I don't see it that way" "*historical data and context*" "Im minority and I have non minority friends. We make fun of other minorities all the time and also sometimes white people! White people can be okay!"

It's individual analysis in the face of a systemic problem that's precisely the jig. Everyone is culpable and responsible but that doesn't make them bad humans. But racism/sexism/homophobia/transphobia/classism all have always been viewed/treated as an individual disease that rots a person to their core. For some reason they not only fail to but refuse to parse that simple reality that we SJWs and pc police are talking about things bigger than individual shit.
I think a part of the issue is we need to very thorough when laying out the framework of what exactly is "systemic" and "structural", because sure it translates into a society-wide culpability for certain oppression(s), but I can understand why people would extrapolate it to, so [claim_1] is that everyone is racist, but to prove that wrong, all I need to find is just one person who isn't racist/hasn't faced racism, b/c that will break down a universal claim. [claim_2] I am not racist! I think the KKK is bad and I have multicultural friends/ am non-white/ am female myself and I have never faced these issues.

I think there needs to be a greater discussion into the material, tangible nature of this flow of power. For instance how a black shooting becomes black crime/hood violence, and how a muslim shooting becomes a terrorism issue; even though it becomes pretty clear that both in the case of San Bernardino and Pulse, they weren't ISIS members or whatever the shit. However when a white guy shoots up a black church, or opens fire on a school his actions are never analyzed socially, but rather he's a mentally unbalanced lone wold a.k.a an individual as opposed to a reflection of his social ethnicity/race.
And how these issues exist in a symbiotic relationship with class, both in cause and effect.

I can post papers and shit, but I have a nagging feeling that those will be largely tl;dr. If someone fluent at this shit wants to take a crack at it, then I have a feeling this discussion (and the general discourse around race over here) will benefit largely imo.
 
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I'm still not sure what exactly this elusive "political correctness" that people have an issue with is, for reasons I will explain in this post, so I'll just talk about what I think is the problem.
Alright, I'll admit that the opinions I outlined in the OP are not well organized-- but it's a topic with a lot of nuance, so it's not like it's easy to outline what type of conduct should/should not be expected in society and by proponents of progressive social positions. I will try to give better context in the below responses; but to be clear, there's no clear black and white here. But then, that IS my point--

That issues of race are contentious and complicated, but that's why it's better to have cultural/social norms that allow for vagueness, breath-room, and slow cross-acceptance-- instead of demanding black and white, right and wrong. Hawaii is a lot more diverse and multi-racial, but it's also got the Polynesean and Asian cultural influences that innately push us towards a social norm more accepting of moral vagueness, and putting a greater emphasis on building relationships/preserving harmony/letting the other side save face.

It may be difficult for people from a purely western background, with its thought squarely sat astride a culture developed for logical thinking and science to conceptualize what I'm trying to say, or even be comfortable with it.

Putting it simply though-- you can win a battle and lose a war. You can win an argument, but stoke the flames of hate.

And what I'm trying to say by bringing an Asian mindset, a vague mindset here, is that there's no correct answer. I can't give you a list of situations of when it's good to point out a mis-placed micro-aggression and begin a dialogue on it, and when it's best to let that white grandma cashier register touch your hair, or ask you what country you're from (hey! I'm a 4th generation American, but my family comes from China and Japan. Why thank you, I'm also proud of my English). It's difficult, but there's got to be more patience and humanity from the progressive side if we want to actually change people and not provoke greater hate and divide.


I understand you were just throwing together a quick response, but it's also an over-simplification.

There is a difference between times when you are, in the moment, a victim-- and times when you are interacting with others on a daily basis. There seem to be many progressives that demand that others conform to their view of polite/correct conduct, down to every second and interaction of our lives-- constantly pointing out micro-aggressions and pointing out the vileness of even mild-mannered and un-ill-intended offenses.

The point of the video was that constantly stacking up those expectations for conduct didn't help, doesn't help in changing the way people think. It is VERY effective in setting the mind of new generations who happen to be raised in those progressive areas and surrounded by those ideas-- but it NOT AT ALL effective at changing racists, or in areas with high influence of racists, or simply too far from urban center to experience the full effect of those cultural transformations.

There is no question that society has made progress, but what we have also done is in fact, build a bigger divide, charge the racial tensions, alienated millions of whites and made them feel estranged from their own country(ies).

There's an incredibly enlightening piece in the video I linked, where Trevor, again once a leader of the UK's multi-cultural fostering race policies, commented:

"Martin Luther King gave us a new set of ideals. But sometimes, ideals are not enough to achieve lasting change.

Revolutions have a way of getting out of hand. What starts as a march of liberation, can become thought control, and worse. Unwittingly, I think we gave birth to an ugly new doctrine.

The new doctrine says this:
1) All whites are alike.
2) All whites are guilty, and tainted.
3) No white person should ever criticize someone who's not white."

Most individual progressives will say that this is over simplifying their views and not what they are saying-- but THINK about how we talk about white privilege, checking your privilege, that no white person can ever understand their privilege. While many progressives might not mean to create an absolutist dogma, the fact is that many people experience it that way. And that can draw lines in the sand, and lead to scary things; the repercussions are-- well, they're in Brexit, and they're in the US President Elect and his cabinet of deplorables right now.




Here's another point of reference-- you wouldn't walk into a village in the mountains of the Middle East and call them bigots and monsters for the way they treat women, demand that they stop trading children in their village judicial processes, and call them offenders of micro-aggression for wanting to touch your hair. That wouldn't be at all productive, it wouldn't liberate anyone, and it certainly wouldn't be good for building a relationship, or understanding.

Especially when so much of the trouble in the middle east, especially in regards to the West, has come about because the west has and is coming and telling them right and wrong-- and holding peoples who haven't been through the same industrial and thought revolutions as us how to think and act and be; even worse when we do it to a people who's cultural vantage point is one extremely against rapid change, and steeped in revering tradition.



Now, you may think "that's the middle east, a totally different situation in completely different countries," but the dynamics here are much the same. In the US, people underestimated the disconnect between liberal cities and slowly changing rural areas. What we are doing is VERY similar to my theoretical situation in the middle eastern village-- that is the degree to which people don't understand their fellow Americans. Yes they are a part of our country, and therefore a part of the society we need to build, but that just means we need even greater sensitivity going forward. Because, while I'd agree with someone like Jon Stewart that no one owns America, this is their country as well-- and neither side can escape the other.


People praise "diversity" and "multi-culturalism" without accepting what those things actually are and mean-- a diversity of CULTURE, the fact that people are not going to agree, and that people are coming from completely different backgrounds of tradition and vantage point. If you want peace in that context, you do need thicker skin, and a willingness to "live and let live."

Moving to progress is good, but forcing your views on a people not ready for them can be really, really bad. Patience, forgiveness, incremental progress, and yes a healthy dose of shared, light-hearted racist joking along the way is a much better path to peace and understanding.


I'm Asian. My best friend in highschool was whiter than a ping pong ball. He would constantly joke about my height and short Asians, and bitch (rightfully) about being the target of anti-white racism. I'd never shy away from a haole (white) joke in his presence either. Both of us made Mexican jokes like no one's business, because hey-- "there are no Mexicans in Hawaii because it's too far to swim here." Ultimately though I never could have asked for a more loyal friend, and within the context of our shared Hawaii culture, this was completely normal. We are extremely different, but we are Ohana, we are family. (As would be any Mexicans who FLY out here to join the community)



In closing, here's a quote from an interview about Trump voters and poor whites:

"Viewed like this, all the talk about “political correctness” isn’t about any specific substantive point, as much as it is a way of expanding the scope of acceptable behavior. People don’t want to believe they have to speak like Obama or Clinton to participate meaningfully in politics, because most of us don’t speak like Obama or Clinton."
How exactly did I oversimplify? What you just posted is nothing but an extremely long version of "racists are not reasonable people, so you have to just accept them the way they are", and that's why this backlah aginst "political correctness is so oddbecause if you're all about living and letting live, why get mad at people who complain about being treated unfairly? Why not let them live and have different opinons? Why do racists get this kid gloves treatment while people standing up to them don't? Because they simply can't help but treat people like shit, and the only way to stop it is to love them for it? I'm not buying it. I usually avoid talking about myself in this context, because it might distract from the point, but to give some perspective, here's how I formed my view on these things:

In school, I was the only black kid in my year. The other kids liked to joke about my skin, about my hair, about my lips, about slavery, about black people's existence, really. Being kids, this was normal, and everyone joked about everyone. But over time, I noticed that these were not really jokes, with set-ups and punchlines, but rather empty statements about how funny it is that some people are black, followed by laughter. I was the punchline, because I was a (BAN ME PLEASE). I was not happy about this realization, so I tried to explain it to the others, and about two people cared. This wasn't some village in middle america, it was a city, in germany, and everyone agreed that racism was bad. I was outnumbered and powerless, much like minorities tend to be in society, so I had no choice but to get used to it. I tried to level the playing field, sometimes, with jokes about white people, but for some reason those weren't funny, which is funny to me. Jokes about turkish people were funny. Out of options, I thought the others might grow out of it, but no signs of that, so I was getting annoyed. At one point, someone outside of my circle of friends called me a (BAN ME PLEASE), and I punched him in the face, and he never called me a (BAN ME PLEASE) again. I don't go around punching people these days, and I don't advocate it, but it worked. Social progress was made. Another thing that worked was addressing a white friend of mine with an insult every time I spoke to him because he wanted to know why I have an issue with the word nigga. He lasted 5 minutes. Social progress was made. But mostly they kept going, so on a normal day I was a (BAN ME PLEASE) with (BAN ME PLEASE) hair and (BAN ME PLEASE) lips playing his (BAN ME PLEASE) music.

Now, you might say "they were just being assholes, they would've joked about something else if you weren't black", and you'd probably be right to a degree, but that's precisely the point: they were being assholes, because verbally abusing people, especially those who can't fight back, makes you an asshole, which is the whole point of "political correctness" (I've never seen smoeone advocating for "political correctness" use the term on their own accord, but maybe that's just my limited experience). It's fine if you say something insensitive because you didn't know better, but if someone pointing that out is enough to make you double down and complain about imaginary cenorship, you're just an asshole. And if you're scared of speaking your mind because nothing is safe to say anymore, you've built yourself a prison of strawmen, and whose fault is that. And don't think I've never been in the privileged position. I grew up in an environment where calling people (BAN ME PLEASE)s and using gay as a negative word was normal, so I did those things, even though I didn't hate gay people, but then it was pointed out to me that this is hurtful and discriminatory, even though I didn't hate gay people, and so I stopped, because it was the reasonable thing to do. Social progress was made. Similarly, a (newer) friend of mine used the word nigga a while ago, so I explained to him that I'd prefer if he didn't use words that implied my lack of worth as a human being, so he stopped, because he's not an asshole. Social progress was made.

And that's the crux of it, really. You can avoid conflict by just living and letting the people who do not want to let you live live, but the only people that helps happen to be the ones propagating racism, leaving them the freedom to propagate racism in peace. If you prefer the absence of conflict to the presence of justice that's your call, but don't act like I'm going too far by having the audacity to demand equality. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't care about people agreeing with me or following rules or adopting scientific vocabulary or "political correctess". You don't have to talk like Obama or Clinton to not call me a (BAN ME PLEASE). All I'm trying to "force" is that people treat me like a person and not a punchline, which requires nothing but basic empathy, and if that's too much to ask of you, you're not my neighbour.
 

Cresselia~~

Junichi Masuda likes this!!
I'm still not sure what exactly this elusive "political correctness" that people have an issue with is, for reasons I will explain in this post, so I'll just talk about what I think is the problem.

How exactly did I oversimplify? What you just posted is nothing but an extremely long version of "racists are not reasonable people, so you have to just accept them the way they are", and that's why this backlah aginst "political correctness is so oddbecause if you're all about living and letting live, why get mad at people who complain about being treated unfairly? Why not let them live and have different opinons? Why do racists get this kid gloves treatment while people standing up to them don't? Because they simply can't help but treat people like shit, and the only way to stop it is to love them for it? I'm not buying it. I usually avoid talking about myself in this context, because it might distract from the point, but to give some perspective, here's how I formed my view on these things:

In school, I was the only black kid in my year. The other kids liked to joke about my skin, about my hair, about my lips, about slavery, about black people's existence, really. Being kids, this was normal, and everyone joked about everyone. But over time, I noticed that these were not really jokes, with set-ups and punchlines, but rather empty statements about how funny it is that some people are black, followed by laughter. I was the punchline, because I was a (BAN ME PLEASE). I was not happy about this realization, so I tried to explain it to the others, and about two people cared. This wasn't some village in middle america, it was a city, in germany, and everyone agreed that racism was bad. I was outnumbered and powerless, much like minorities tend to be in society, so I had no choice but to get used to it. I tried to level the playing field, sometimes, with jokes about white people, but for some reason those weren't funny, which is funny to me. Jokes about turkish people were funny. Out of options, I thought the others might grow out of it, but no signs of that, so I was getting annoyed. At one point, someone outside of my circle of friends called me a (BAN ME PLEASE), and I punched him in the face, and he never called me a (BAN ME PLEASE) again. I don't go around punching people these days, and I don't advocate it, but it worked. Social progress was made. Another thing that worked was addressing a white friend of mine with an insult every time I spoke to him because he wanted to know why I have an issue with the word nigga. He lasted 5 minutes. Social progress was made. But mostly they kept going, so on a normal day I was a (BAN ME PLEASE) with (BAN ME PLEASE) hair and (BAN ME PLEASE) lips playing his (BAN ME PLEASE) music.

Now, you might say "they were just being assholes, they would've joked about something else if you weren't black", and you'd probably be right to a degree, but that's precisely the point: they were being assholes, because verbally abusing people, especially those who can't fight back, makes you an asshole, which is the whole point of "political correctness" (I've never seen smoeone advocating for "political correctness" use the term on their own accord, but maybe that's just my limited experience). It's fine if you say something insensitive because you didn't know better, but if someone pointing that out is enough to make you double down and complain about imaginary cenorship, you're just an asshole. And if you're scared of speaking your mind because nothing is safe to say anymore, you've built yourself a prison of strawmen, and whose fault is that. And don't think I've never been in the privileged position. I grew up in an environment where calling people (BAN ME PLEASE) and using gay as a negative word was normal, so I did those things, even though I didn't hate gay people, but then it was pointed out to me that this is hurtful and discriminatory, even though I didn't hate gay people, and so I stopped, because it was the reasonable thing to do. Social progress was made. Similarly, a (newer) friend of mine used the word nigga a while ago, so I explained to him that I'd prefer if he didn't use words that implied my lack of worth as a human being, so he stopped, because he's not an asshole. Social progress was made.

And that's the crux of it, really. You can avoid conflict by just living and letting the people who do not want to let you live live, but the only people that helps happen to be the ones propagating racism, leaving them the freedom to propagate racism in peace. If you prefer the absence of conflict to the presence of justice that's your call, but don't act like I'm going too far by having the audacity to demand equality. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't care about people agreeing with me or following rules or adopting scientific vocabulary or "political correctess". You don't have to talk like Obama or Clinton to not call me a (BAN ME PLEASE). All I'm trying to "force" is that people treat me like a person and not a punchline, which requires nothing but basic empathy, and if that's too much to ask of you, you're not my neighbour.
But apparently, the type of political correctness in USA does not make racist remarks / jokes illegal.
Whilst in the UK, verbal racism in the public is illegal. It's illegal to say stuff like "go back to your own country" in the UK. You can be arrested for saying that, if you happen to be caught on camera.

But people in the UK aren't going to be offended by the same things.
For example, stuff like asking an Asian "Why is your English so good?" is generally not considered racist in the UK.
However, in the USA, a lot of people are making it seem that Asians are supposed to get offended.
And for another example, remarks on stereotypes such as "You can do this! You are Asian and you should be good at maths." is not considered racist in the UK, Russia, and actually, the entire Asia.
And that, for one more example, blacks in the UK have no problems with people wanting to touch their hair.

The type of political correctness in USA seems to be pushing that there are many things people should be offended with, even when the person was originally of good intent. Such as "your English is so good" ,etc.

My stance is, why do you bother to feel offended?
Why do you have to feel offended?
Why do white people need to know so many extra things to avoid to potentially offend you?
When people ask Asians "why is your English so good?" they shouldn't feel offended at all, and should have said thank you, or just honestly state that they have been living in an English speaking country for a long time.
People want to touch Afro hair because they are curious. They have not been exposed to hair types like this, and it's cool that you have different hair, that's why people are curious.

Even when people on the streets scream random racist remarks at me, I wouldn't feel sad about it-- because it's not my problem.
My skin color is NOT a legitimate problem. It's that person that is having a problem. He/ she has behavioural issues.
I think most people only feel sad and offended because they wondered if their skin color is a problem, and that is related to self esteem issues.
If people shout the N word at you in the UK, and is caught on camera, he's going to be arrested anyway. He is the criminal, the one with the problem, not you.

But I suppose the last paragraph is a bit extreme, because it is quite normal to be sad when people yell remarks at you that are truly racist.
Maybe you'd feel bad about humanity as a whole, etc.
Moving back towards my previous point. I think the USA type of political correctness is making people believe that a lot of stuff are supposed to be racist, even when people do not have ill intent.
And that, is what I call flawed. I believe that if that person has no ill intentions, no one should have been offended at all.
And that includes stereotyping, because sometimes, stereotyping can be factually statistically correct.
And factoids on its own are supposed to be neutral.
It shouldn't be considered racist unless the person saying that has real negative intentions.
 

Chou Toshio

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How exactly did I oversimplify?
There is a difference between times when you are, in the moment, a victim-- and times when you are interacting with others on a daily basis. There seem to be many progressives that demand that others conform to their view of polite/correct conduct, down to every second and interaction of our lives-- constantly pointing out micro-aggressions and pointing out the vileness of even mild-mannered and un-ill-intended offenses.


What you just posted is nothing but an extremely long version of "racists are not reasonable people, so you have to just accept them the way they are", and that's why this backlah aginst "political correctness is so oddbecause if you're all about living and letting live, why get mad at people who complain about being treated unfairly? Why not let them live and have different opinons? Why do racists get this kid gloves treatment while people standing up to them don't? Because they simply can't help but treat people like shit, and the only way to stop it is to love them for it? I'm not buying it.
Putting it simply though-- you can win a battle and lose a war. You can win an argument, but stoke the flames of hate.

And what I'm trying to say by bringing an Asian mindset, a vague mindset here, is that there's no correct answer. I can't give you a list of situations of when it's good to point out a mis-placed micro-aggression and begin a dialogue on it, and when it's best to let that white grandma cashier register touch your hair, or ask you what country you're from. It's difficult, but there's got to be more patience and humanity from the progressive side if we want to actually change people and not provoke greater hate and divide.

@ the general discussion:

Ironically, just as TheValkyries said that the problem for social justice isn't with individuals or individual interactions so much as the systemic problems, the same thing is true for the problems this thread is highlighting that have been stoked by broad social cry for political correctness.

Pissing off one racist isn't so much a problem-- until it becomes a wide, entrenched sense of people (here whites, both racists and non-racists) feeling silenced. Until it becomes a movement or division that represents real harm or threat.

It's pretty clear too that I am not proposing a clear-cut and easy solution here. I am simply highlighting a real problem.

This is something that has bothered me for a long time-- as the OP said, going back to my college days in California. Coming from a place with broader racial acceptance and greater multi-culturalism than the mainland USA, I just felt that social progressives were taking the wrong attitude, and that it was going to blow up in their faces and turn far more ugly. And it definitely has.

So this is also an "I told you so." kinda of thread, kinda. It's rather also well connected to any "I told you so" sentiments Bernie supporters would like to make to Hillary ones. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm happy on either account (the opposite...). To those social progressives who WOULD think about the talking points here, and also re-consider how they should go about impressing their own social stances in their daily interactions, that's enough for me in this thread. As I said, I don't really have a solution, but wanted to voice what I was thinking and feeling-- because even without a solution, the problem is a real one.
 
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I understood very well that what you were saying was indeed what you were saying. I read your posts. They turn the responsibility on the victims instead of standing with them. This promotes injustice for the sake of comfort. I think that's a horrible thing to do. Conftronting racism has "blown up in people's faces" (this is very arguable) because of people like you, who would rather stand by and do nothing. I'm outty.
 
My opinion on this would take some time to write out, so before I start, can you tell me how exactly you define "political correctness"? The term has become quite muddied, I think, so I don't want to argue against something you're not saying.

I will say this:

By telling people not to "force an agenda on people" (force how?) and instead reach out to their "neighbours", who are attacking them, are you not the one expecting them to be more than human? This, to me, is a pretty blatant case of shifting the responsiblity to the victim, something I'm not willing to do. Also, I'm not american, but I'd wager that "let those stupid white people die in their poverty, we only want equality for ourselves" is not a relevant political stance. Again, though, I might be misunderstanding you because I'm not sure what the actual point of contention is.
PC is love
 

KM

slayification
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hint hint hint one of the reasons different things are viewed differently in different countries is because each country has a unique history with how it has treated people of different races !!! imagine that
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
hint hint hint one of the reasons different things are viewed differently in different countries is because each country has a unique history with how it has treated people of different races !!! imagine that
Can you please refrain from posting in such a smug, arrogant and sarcastic way. It doesnt help further discussion in any way.
 
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