Post-ORAS Create-A-Pokemon aka. "When do we start CAP 20?"

DougJustDoug

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I'd like to address a general issue as to "Where do we stand with the CAP project right now?". Not that anyone has asked specifically, but I know some people are wondering and/or frustrated about it. As a discussion, this is typically something geared more for the CAP PRC, but this thread is also somewhat of a general project status update, so I'm posting this in the main CAP forum. Please use the proper discretion, if you decide to give feedback.

There is not much urgency around CAP right now, in terms of wrapping up PR threads or starting a new CAP, because of the new ORAS games. This is not an official thing, it's just the natural consequence of a new game coming out. The CAP project allows us to experiment with new pokemon and their impact on competitive play. Right now, we don't need CAP to scratch that itch. If people want to mess with new pokemon and see how they impact the metagame, just pick up an ORAS cartridge or log into Showdown. We are currently in the playtest period of a huge, just-completed "Create-A-Pokemon Project" right now and Gamefreak was the TLT.

That doesn't mean there is nothing we can be doing in CAP, but there is a lull as we settle into ORAS and see how things shake out. I know I personally am spending a TON of time in the new games (both playing the game for enjoyment and researching stuff for various programs that I am updating), and I assume most serious Pokemon players are doing the same. We certainly can be doing PR right now, and I am not suggesting everything in CAP comes to a total standstill. But I do expect people with a finite amount of free "pokemon time" to be prioritizing the new games over fan community stuff. This is a GOOD TRADEOFF for projects like CAP -- because our project depends on people having detailed knowledge and experience with the games.

Although I don't think we should start a new CAP project immediately, I'm not exactly sure what the criteria are for WHEN we should start the next CAP project. There isn't anything objective PREVENTING us from starting a CAP right now, so it's hard to objectively say when the time is right to get moving with CAP 20. In my opinion, there are two interrelated areas of "readiness" as it pertains to CAP 20:

When is the CAP community "ready" and when is the OU metagame "ready"?

There are plenty of CAP people that are "ready" right now, so this isn't a vote thing (Read: Please don't post ITT to say, "I'm ready now") As I mentioned above, this question is more about when we determine that intelligent, avid pokemon players have gotten past the surge of time required to immerse themselves in a new version of the game/metagame and they understand the overall consequences of the changes introduced.

I know I personally am still knee-deep in all sorts of ingame stuff, both as a programmer doing research for several pokemon-related utilities, and as a fan that likes to do time-intensive ingame projects. And I know very little about the metagame changes that have emerged post-ORAS, beyond the high-profile bans and tier changes that have occurred over the past few weeks. So I definitely have more to catch up on.

But that's just me. Is my situation different than others? Have most people pounded out their ingame campaign, beat the E4, put their DS back on the shelf, and are now ready to spend their free "pokemon time" with hours and hours of CAP discussion and voting threads? Have most sim battlers been laddering obsessively and have digested the new metagame sufficiently to begin experimenting with adding new fake OU pokemon to the mix?

In talking to a few battlers, it's debatable as to whether ORAS has been a "big deal" to the OU metagame or not. I don't really want to have that debate in this thread really, because it will be a shitstorm. Also, I don't want to get into a discussion of when the OU metagame is "balanced" -- because it never is balanced. That's why the OU Tiering Council always has something on their plate.

What I'm really looking for is some input on how we should determine that ORAS has been sufficiently digested by enough active, intelligent people for us to have intelligent discussions about making major changes to the game (ie. add a powerful fake pokemon to OU, aka CAP 20).
 

Unsee

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Since I am a newcomer to CAP (and the forums, really), I don't know much about the process and the average length of time between projects. I always thought CAP was a fun little side project made to draw in the creative people that are all of us. The massive reasoning, as explained by you, DougJustDoug, has finally gotten to me. Regardless of my little experience here, I will proceed to hopefully contribute to this conversation in a good way...

It's been more than a month since the release of ΩR and αS. While this is not a very long time in the real world, it is massive in the Pokémon world and on the internet. I have had time to beat the E4, accidentally destroy Deoxys a few times before catching it, and more or less reach a satisfied state. That said, I am far from done playing Omega Ruby, but in a more relaxed state. Personally, I am ready for CAP 20. But to go back to my original point, I am new to this town, and my opinion might not be the best.

Still, though, I am sure the next project will begin sooner or later, and am very excited for its beginning!
 

dhelmise

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Since I am a newcomer to CAP (and the forums, really), I don't know much about the process and the average length of time between projects. I always thought CAP was a fun little side project made to draw in the creative people that are all of us. The massive reasoning, as explained by you, DougJustDoug, has finally gotten to me. Regardless of my little experience here, I will proceed to hopefully contribute to this conversation in a good way...

It's been more than a month since the release of ΩR and αS. While this is not a very long time in the real world, it is massive in the Pokémon world and on the internet. I have had time to beat the E4, accidentally destroy Deoxys a few times before catching it, and more or less reach a satisfied state. That said, I am far from done playing Omega Ruby, but in a more relaxed state. Personally, I am ready for CAP 20. But to go back to my original point, I am new to this town, and my opinion might not be the best.

Still, though, I am sure the next project will begin sooner or later, and am very excited for its beginning!
Adding onto what The Unseen Potato said, I believe that starting CAP 20 would be fun, no matter when it starts. This would allow a plethora of creative thinkers to help with what the community enjoys. I myself would enjoy whether or not I get to participate in the PRC; I would have a large amount of fun with the new Pokemon.
 

Bughouse

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I talked about this on IRC, but I'll resay it here.

Once Greninja is banned (which looks inevitable), the metagame will be pretty ready. The OU suspect ladder was very enjoyable and diverse, without being imbalanced. Probably the most fun I've had in an OU meta since, well, maybe ever? I certainly enjoy it more than anything in BW. I'd have to go back to late DPP to even have that be a question. So with regards to readiness of the meta, I believe a CAP could start as soon as that vote is over (i.e. quite soon).

I'm not sure when the userbase will be ready. I would argue waiting for the userbase to become ready is a futile endeavor. The main participants of CAP are always behind the metagame. That's just how it is. If you mean ready in terms of being able to give a good time commitment, perhaps it would be best to keep waiting and let people finish everything they want to complete in-game first. We all know how badly Cawmodore died when XY came out. I have no idea when that would be considered long enough to start. I mean, it has been out for over a month now. Is that enough? I don't know.
 

ginganinja

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OU Council doesn't have too much on its plate after Greninja (it and Mega Mence were the priority tests at least when I chatted to them a few weeks ago), so I'd take a look at that. A few other pokemon were thrown around for discussion after the eventual Greninja suspect test, but nothing was too concrete, so speaking as an OU mod, the OU meta is going to feel a good deal better after the Greninja suspect test.
 
I'd wait till after the current suspect testing, and then let the storm calm down after the results. After that, I'd give it a couple of weeks to let the meta settle down, if greninja is banned. I'd say about late janurary/early feb
 
Post Greninja suspect test seems to be as good a time as any to kick off CAP20, in my opinion - at least in terms of the meta being ready.

I took the release of ORAS as a chance to catch up on the OU metagame and have put a bit more of my time into following OU and playing showdown than I did previously. The most important changes to OU (not just the new megas) have been well represented in the ladders over the past couple of months, so I personally feel like I'll be ready for CAP20 following the suspect test.
Thanks to the suspect ladder we have an idea of what the meta could be like following a ban, and so I can't imagine the need for an adjustment period following a ban. Realistically, providing that the TLT and TL noms+votes start as soon as the suspect results are announced, there would still be around two weeks before the concept submissions begin anyway.
 
I think it comes down to this:
If the length of time before OU is ready is longer then the CAP process, we can just do a "for fun" CAP. We don't need to take the competitive aspect of this so seriously - there is nothing wrong with doing a less serious project while we wait for a more appropriate time to start back up.

If the length of time before OU is ready is substantially shorter than the CAP process then we should probably wait. We don't want to waste useable time over a less formal project.

Because people are suggesting the Greninja ban as a good time, the latter looks like the way to go.
 
I agree with starting it post suspect test, but give it about a week while the angry mobs calm down. Then the meta should be ready for a new CAP. I feel like the ORAS OU metagame has established itself pretty well, and things are starting to fall into place regarding periodic suspect tests and steady usage statistics.

ORAS has been out for a sufficient amount of time as well, considering that I've beat the game, caught every available legendary, and all that I'm doing now is screwing around with secret bases, training, and occasionally chaining a shiny.
 
It may also be a good idea to wait for the next tier shifts after thr suspect test. That would give the metagame a chance to react before we get started so that no new threat will pop up during our project. Again, I am not saying we should wait, but it might be an option to consider.
 
While I'm a huge CAP person, I do agree that it's wise to finish the Greninja suspect before starting CAP 20, because nothing else is outright broken and will cause huge shifts in the meta to make our CAP potentially useless.
 

nyttyn

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I think we should at least wait until after Geninja's suspect test ends. If it isn't banned, we can probably go ahead and proceed with CAP20 since the metagame will remain more or less the same way. Otherwise, if it is banned, I would like to advocate to wait at least until next month's usage stat, since people are SUPER fond of using those, and Greninja has a sizable enough effect on the meta that I would argue that waiting for the post-frog ban use stats would be for the best.

also we need to finish up the matter of the movepool issues PRC topic.
 
I think we'll be waiting a short time for the PRC threads to close before the TL and TLT threads open up to decide who'll be directing the CAP project.

I suppose everyone's thinking up a really sound concept to submit! Or in my case failing...
At least it's something to do in the meantime!
 

Da Pizza Man

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I think give it a week or 2 to let the meta sort itself out. I really want to be here for the full CAP this time.
The meta kinda already sorted out with the suspect ladder being the only ladder, I think we are fine, once the important prcs are done (Concept and maybe Movepool) I think we should start
 
This may not be relevant to the main process, but does anyone think Rebble and Bolderdash could tide us over until CAP 20 is ready to start? Even if we can't work on the full-fledged Prevos, could we at least provide (placeholder) artwork for the remaining Sinnoh Prevos?
 

Ununhexium

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I think we should start as soon as we finish up the PR thread on the concept submissions and announce the concept workshop forum to the general public for obvious reasons.
 
I think we should start as soon as we finish up the PR thread on the concept submissions and announce the concept workshop forum to the general public for obvious reasons.
The main problem for me with the last one was that it wasn't announced that it was starting, and I missed the original concept.
 

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