PU Analyses Discussion Thread

Anty

let's drop
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Hey guys, its been a week after the Victreebel ban, but is it alright if I do an analysis for Weepinbell? I've been testing it quite a bit and it's worked well. It's almost the same as Victreebel but slightly weaker and more frail
I would say leave it for at least another week, as I dont think one week of testing is enough especcially since the metagame has been changing recently (it is starting to settle down though)
 

rubsomebacononit

I was cringe and annoying when I was on smogon RIP
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I would say leave it for at least another week, as I dont think one week of testing is enough especcially since the metagame has been changing recently (it is starting to settle down though)
Yeah, I understand. I'll also do some more testing
 

rubsomebacononit

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Sorry for double posting, but it's been a week and I feel as though the meta has settled enough. Is it ok if I take Weepinbell?
 
Guys I think Shelgon needs an analysis. It is a good wall with a fairly good attack stat. It has access to Wish-Tect and has a phazing move in Roar. Obv, it can use eviolite and its typing is ok. Dragon-types are a bit unusual(Fraxure being the only one) and Shelgon can outdamage him. Fairy type are a bit rare though Ice-types are pretty common. Still, maybe it deserves an analysis.
 
Guys I think Shelgon needs an analysis. It is a good wall with a fairly good attack stat. It has access to Wish-Tect and has a phazing move in Roar. Obv, it can use eviolite and its typing is ok. Dragon-types are a bit unusual(Fraxure being the only one) and Shelgon can outdamage him. Fairy type are a bit rare though Ice-types are pretty common. Still, maybe it deserves an analysis.
it is pretty mediocre. because offensive sets are outclassed completely by fraxure, it's only niche is as an average wall with wish, but it lacks the raw bulk to soak up attacks and gain free turns due to constantly wishing and protecting, it is setup / spikes bait for very common pokemon in the tier, and the few things it walls well by virtue of its typing are walled better by defensive zweilous anyway (outside of monferno i guess which sets up on shelgon).
 
it is pretty mediocre. because offensive sets are outclassed completely by fraxure, it's only niche is as an average wall with wish, but it lacks the raw bulk to soak up attacks and gain free turns due to constantly wishing and protecting, it is setup / spikes bait for very common pokemon in the tier, and the few things it walls well by virtue of its typing are walled better by defensive zweilous anyway (outside of monferno i guess which sets up on shelgon).
Sir, defensively, it is better than Zweilous stat-wise and movepool-wise(is that even a word? :P). Shelgon has wish to heal itself and pass to his teammates. Also, it only has 3 weaknesses while Zweilous has 4 and a quad weakness. I think it has a small niche.
 
Sir, defensively, it is better than Zweilous stat-wise and movepool-wise(is that even a word? :P). Shelgon has wish to heal itself and pass to his teammates. Also, it only has 3 weaknesses while Zweilous has 4 and a quad weakness. I think it has a small niche.
yeah but those factors aren't valued objectively like that. for example, for the weakness argument, zweilous's extra weakness (fighting) doesn't matter significantly in most cases, as monferno is an uncommon pokemon that can setup on shelgon anyway if swords dance, scraggy sets up on shelgon and zweilous (lacking dragon tail but it still forces it out), kadabra's focus blast isn't really enough to beat zweilous as sash has a high probability to lose 1v1 and life orb can't ko 1v1 so it loses, most other focus blasts won't ko it, meanwhile the 4x weakness is also irrelevant because fairy-types destroy shelgon anyway. like you said, it's only niche is wish, but due to its poor bulk it doesn't get to pass wishes often so it tends to become too weak to pass anything and has to stick with just wish protecting which means it is free setup
 
yeah but those factors aren't valued objectively like that. for example, for the weakness argument, zweilous's extra weakness (fighting) doesn't matter significantly in most cases, as monferno is an uncommon pokemon that can setup on shelgon anyway if swords dance, scraggy sets up on shelgon and zweilous (lacking dragon tail but it still forces it out), kadabra's focus blast isn't really enough to beat zweilous as sash has a high probability to lose 1v1 and life orb can't ko 1v1 so it loses, most other focus blasts won't ko it, meanwhile the 4x weakness is also irrelevant because fairy-types destroy shelgon anyway. like you said, it's only niche is wish, but due to its poor bulk it doesn't get to pass wishes often so it tends to become too weak to pass anything and has to stick with just wish protecting which means it is free setup
Ok sir. Thanks for your time. Maybe Shelgon really is a pretty bad mon.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Hi I noticed you guys uploaded a Wailord analysis but didn't include or mention a set I have used in RU a month or two ago to decent success.

The set is the following
Wailord @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aqua Ring
- Protect
- Substitute
- Scald

I actually used enough speed to beat Alomomola reliably because thats a big RU threat that becomes set up fodder. Basically the point of this set is the same as Stallrein when permanent hail was still a mechanic; Toxic Spikes support is therefore almost necessary. In RU Dugtrio is legal so I used that as a partner to increase the chance of keeping Toxic Spikes by killing grounded poisons but that obviously is unavailable in PU (Diglett maybe?). Compared to Walrein you need an extra turn to set up, you don't get free hail chip damage, and you do not get Roar but in exchange you get Pressure, a better defensive typing, and Scald. Also since this is PU I suppose your opponents will just be weaker. Only Suicune can run a similar set with Pressure (and it really outclasses Wailord) but it needs a Relaxed nature and it is obviously not RU or PU legal.
 

WhiteDMist

Path>Goal
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Roselia is the most common Toxic Spiker, which in itself presents a conundrum: it also absorbs Toxic Spikes. Diglett is terrible and needs Roselia to be weakened to actually trapkill it properly. Also, why are you mentioning non-PU mons? There is no point comparing them, unless you can back it up with PU relevant examples. What does this even wall? Piloswine and Rapidash, as well as support Pokemon: not exactly screaming good utility here. It's not on anyone to test it out, it's on you to convince the QC team.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
WhiteDMist

Okay Ill be happy to try and ladder and get replays of Wailord working in this tier. Do you think decent ladder replays would be sufficient or is the ladder less than reputable? Thats assuming there is a PU ladder actually. Just taking a quick glance at the viability ranking though I would say after set up Wailord does wall actually a good chunk of the tier which I'm sure you can see for yourself. The reason I mentioned RU Pokemon is because RU generally has a much higher power level than PU (RU Pokemon > PU Pokemon) so if a Pokemon is successful in RU then of course its going to be relevant. I'm sad you don't want to test it yourself since you're the more knowledgable PU player but I suppose I understand that because there would just be too much for your QC team then.
 

scorpdestroyer

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WhiteDMist

Okay Ill be happy to try and ladder and get replays of Wailord working in this tier. Do you think decent ladder replays would be sufficient or is the ladder less than reputable? Thats assuming there is a PU ladder actually. Just taking a quick glance at the viability ranking though I would say after set up Wailord does wall actually a good chunk of the tier which I'm sure you can see for yourself. The reason I mentioned RU Pokemon is because RU generally has a much higher power level than PU (RU Pokemon > PU Pokemon) so if a Pokemon is successful in RU then of course its going to be relevant. I'm sad you don't want to test it yourself since you're the more knowledgable PU player but I suppose I understand that because there would just be too much for your QC team then.
saying that a set is successful in RU = success in PU is quite flawed because the metagames are quite different. I don't know much about RU, but here in PU there's almost zero reason to use Wailord for its walling abilities (tbh you haven't even convinced me it's good in RU in the first place, but I digress). Like WDM mentioned it walls hardly anything noteworthy that makes me want to put it on a team (no, I can't see for myself, you tell me what it walls that makes me want to turn to this set), and there are rarely any teams that would allow Wailord to set up Sub Aqua Ring. Almost every team has a way to power past Wailord, through special electric types or just strong hitters in general, Roselia is extremely common and walls it completely while absorbing tspikes. Moreover, other defensive waters exist that can actually wall significant Pokemon: Politoed, Carracosta, and Pelipper are just some examples that wall roughly the same things as Wailord and more, all without relying on as much team support and/or unreliable strategies. The obligation is on you to prove to us that the set is worth consideration for a team, not on us to test it.
 

MZ

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I guess I'll just add that your reasoning is "RU pokemon are stronger" and then you talk about how Wailord beats support pokemon. Idk how much you've played PU, but it's ridiculously offensive right now with a heavy emphasis on setup sweepers. In addition, the high prevalence of like 7 good offensive waters makes a good water check a necessity, leaving your set totally stopped by pokemon such as Politoed and and Roselia. We also have as a ton of viable electrics on most teams, far more than just Jolteon and rotom-c, and other scald burn immunities that basically just win like CM duosion and Clefairy.

Also I don't see why you'd use this in RU when it literally cannot touch Jellicent, jynx, and seismitoad, as well as plenty of other things like cm virizion, sub BU Braviary, venomoth, RestTalk malamar, sub cm meloetta, cm Sigilyph, DD shed skin scrafty, and even gurdurr setting up on it (all above C+). Sounds like a terrible defensive water with toed, mola, Jellicent, and even quagsire in the tier. Being reliant on scald and nothing else should only be for very specific defensive purposes, such as wishpassers like vaporeon or Alomomola, and Wailord really lacks the utility to set up and pull this off well.
 
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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
So a few things. I'll tag the three people who responded to me, thanks for your replies. Megazard scorpdestroyer WhiteDMist

Let me try to convince you the above Wailord is analysis worthy, if you think it deserves one later I will write it up if nobody else picks it up.

First of all you all seem to fundamentally misunderstand Wailord which I expected which is why I talked about Walrein in my previous post - Wailord is extremely comparable to Stallrein but not a typical bulky water so to speak. You do not mainly use Wailord to switch into Rapidash/Basculin or a generic weak attacker that can't usually hit you super effectively like Sash Kadabra. Although you certainly can do this, this is only one of Wailord's secondary purposes which is unfortunately somewhat outclassed by the other bulky waters. The other main purpose, which isn't outclassed at all, is to be a PP staller that also can be a "win condition" of sorts. Basically Wailord is infamous/famous/wellknown for spamming Water Spout which is the set that comes to mind despite your guys' (very nice btw) Curse analysis. So it can pretty easily scare things out and even if it cant by virtue of its reputation it can still come in on the before mentioned Pokemon like Basculin and get a Sub/ring up. After that it only needs one more turn of set up to get into a hard to break combo of spamming sub and protect which is easily done because Wailord's good bulk (it can set up a sub on LO Zeb's Tbolt for instance). Pressure and good bulk and typing make it very stally, for instance the Roselia you guys were fretting about just runs out of PP with the common synthesis and if it tries to be sneaky and set up Spikes you can fish for scald burns (you win in either way).

As for the replays you asked for. I played about 54 games of PU on the ladder with the team starting from 1000 and lost 5 games while getting to the number one elo spot in 2 days with my first pu team. Most of the replays had Electrode to lure out Roselia with Explosion (didn't like it despite Wailord being able to technically win) but I realized in practice Piloswine was often the first switch in so I decided to just go complete stall from original semistall with a Lickilicki. Wailord is a useful figure that in many games acts as typical bulky water perfectly well (its slightly bulkier than politoed iirc and can pp stall boosters like cm clefairy while politoed perish songs) but in other games it acts as the set intended as a win condition and an unbreachable wall. You can look my name up for more replays I obviously wont post all of them.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257364952 I lost this game despite being very lucky in the opening but I was a little unlucky not to get a scald burn at the end, otherwise Wailord could have pp stalled servine as well as missy.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257536593 i think this game got me to #1...Wailord couldn't do too much to an opposing semistall/fullstall team but it prevented a ninetales from ravaging me

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257277175 he didn't let me get a chance to do it but its clear if i get to set up my 2 tspikes then wailord gets a 6-0

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257354797 showing offensive pokemon simply can't beat Wailord when it sets up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257216078 one of my first pu games (probably first 10 or def first 20) so I didn't really know much meta yet but I do know Wailord is hard to break :]

I'm sure you all will have questions and criticisms because the set is so unorthodox (unless you used stallrein *-*) so just ask me and I'll try to answer and justify wailord's presence. Thanks
 
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Anty

let's drop
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So a few things. I'll tag the three people who responded to me, thanks for your replies. Megazard scorpdestroyer WhiteDMist

Let me try to convince you the above Wailord is analysis worthy, if you think it deserves one later I will write it up if nobody else picks it up.

First of all you all seem to fundamentally misunderstand Wailord which I expected which is why I talked about Walrein in my previous post - Wailord is extremely comparable to Stallrein but not a typical bulky water so to speak. You do not mainly use Wailord to switch into Rapidash/Basculin or a generic weak attacker that can't usually hit you super effectively like Sash Kadabra. Although you certainly can do this, this is only one of Wailord's secondary purposes which is unfortunately somewhat outclassed by the other bulky waters. The other main purpose, which isn't outclassed at all, is to be a PP staller that also can be a "win condition" of sorts. Basically Wailord is infamous/famous/wellknown for spamming Water Spout which is the set that comes to mind despite your guys' (very nice btw) Curse analysis. So it can pretty easily scare things out and even if it cant by virtue of its reputation it can still come in on the before mentioned Pokemon like Basculin and get a Sub/ring up. After that it only needs one more turn of set up to get into a hard to break combo of spamming sub and protect which is easily done because Wailord's good bulk (it can set up a sub on LO Zeb's Tbolt for instance). Pressure and good bulk and typing make it very stally, for instance the Roselia you guys were fretting about just runs out of PP with the common synthesis and if it tries to be sneaky and set up Spikes you can fish for scald burns (you win in either way).

As for the replays you asked for. I played about 54 games of PU on the ladder with the team starting from 1000 and lost 5 games while getting to the number one elo spot in 2 days with my first pu team. Most of the replays had Electrode to lure out Roselia with Explosion (didn't like it despite Wailord being able to technically win) but I realized in practice Piloswine was often the first switch in so I decided to just go complete stall from original semistall with a Lickilicki. Wailord is a useful figure that in many games acts as typical bulky water perfectly well (its slightly bulkier than politoed iirc and can pp stall boosters like cm clefairy while politoed perish songs) but in other games it acts as the set intended as a win condition and an unbreachable wall. You can look my name up for more replays I obviously wont post all of them.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257364952 I lost this game despite being very lucky in the opening but I was a little unlucky not to get a scald burn at the end, otherwise Wailord could have pp stalled servine as well as missy.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257536593 i think this game got me to #1...Wailord couldn't do too much to an opposing semistall/fullstall team but it prevented a ninetales from ravaging me

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257277175 he didn't let me get a chance to do it but its clear if i get to set up my 2 tspikes then wailord gets a 6-0

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257354797 showing offensive pokemon simply can't beat Wailord when it sets up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-257216078 one of my first pu games (probably first 10 or def first 20) so I didn't really know much meta yet but I do know Wailord is hard to break :]

I'm sure you all will have questions and criticisms because the set is so unorthodox (unless you used stallrein *-*) so just ask me and I'll try to answer and justify wailord's presence. Thanks
OK I appreciate you getting those replays as it would be hard with the ladder, but this still doesn't convince me. PU is a heavily offense focussed meta, and most of the council do think that stall (and semi stall) is way too match up based to be very viable, this is to do with the pure strength of many offensive pokemon. Defensive playstyles are niche, but your team (as an example) is very threatened by pokemon like simipour, simisage, and ninetales. Not only that but the thought of pp stall is a bit crazy in such a tier, as substitute + protect have a combined PP total of 32, and looking around, a lot of pokemon can deal with that + pressure (yes offensively with mons like zebby). This may not be so bad if toxic spikes where much better in this tier, but sadly they are not due to roselia being the best pokemon in the tier (arbok isnt so bad either). Basically im not saying that this would be completely unviable, but in an offensive tier like this with toxic spikes counterplay, it is fairly unreliable. Adding onto that, the set would not exactly be viable enough to be relevant, meaning it would not be worth giving it an analysis. The set we have onsite isnt viable itself (which is why it is in e-rank), but i dont think this set is good enough to be worth revamping the whole analysis as we have a lot more priorities, ie giving every FE pokemon an analysis.
 
In my opinion having used Stallrein quite a bit last geb the biggest flaw this strat has is the lack of Hail damage to negate leftovers. Not opposed to an analysis I guess if YOU write it since its pretty effective if tspikes are kept up
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
That makes me happy galbia! I noticed in the reservation thread you're the bully leader but Anty is the goderator. Does this mean I'm allowed to write the analysis skeleton yet or not? If so I'll start probably in a couple days or possibly today depending on my life.

I understand what you're saying Anty but I disgaree with your findings. My team isn't really weak to Simipour or Simisage or Ninetailes since I have Roselia to counter simipour, roselia/avalugg to beat simisage if its special/physical and Gabite to OHKO ninetales with as well as licki for emergency back up versus all of them really. I would possibly disagree with your entire premise that stall is weak - I have been told that in basically every official tier this gen but I have made in my opinion good stall teams in all official tiers except ubers,nu (and I dont play OU). I find thats because people bandwagon on the forums to attack stall, they never try stall for themselves, and because people are blinded by the obvious (lol sd haxorus in uu gg stall...never realizing you can use granbull or realizing that trick room is often lol gg ho in the same way). That discussion goes beyond wailord tho :]
 
You can but for now you only have my qc check so 2 more qc members to convince (we will also have to sort out why an e rank Mon has 2 sets lol)
 

MZ

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That makes me happy galbia! I noticed in the reservation thread you're the bully leader but Anty is the goderator. Does this mean I'm allowed to write the analysis skeleton yet or not? If so I'll start probably in a couple days or possibly today depending on my life.

I understand what you're saying Anty but I disgaree with your findings. My team isn't really weak to Simipour or Simisage or Ninetailes since I have Roselia to counter simipour, roselia/avalugg to beat simisage if its special/physical and Gabite to OHKO ninetales with as well as licki for emergency back up versus all of them really. I would possibly disagree with your entire premise that stall is weak - I have been told that in basically every official tier this gen but I have made in my opinion good stall teams in all official tiers except ubers,nu (and I dont play OU). I find thats because people bandwagon on the forums to attack stall, they never try stall for themselves, and because people are blinded by the obvious (lol sd haxorus in uu gg stall...never realizing you can use granbull or realizing that trick room is often lol gg ho in the same way). That discussion goes beyond wailord tho :]
I mean at this point it seems more like we're beating a dead horse, but here goes. Stall, at some point, will always be more unreliable than other play styles. No, it isn't totally unviable. But due to the massive amount of threats in the tier you will lose to something and that's just a given, which is the problem stall faces. No, stall isn't totally unviable at all. But your journey was certainly made easier by, quite frankly, how poor quality those games were. Anty is quite correct about the issues you have with a well played Ninetales (Gabite is really easy to wear down just enough and Licky isn't a counter) as well as hazard stack + spinblocker basically being gg (why I find a defogger on stall is absolutely necessary despite your own hazards being removed), you having zero switchins to Dodrio or LO Kadabra with SR up, CM duosion and clefairy being monsters if they don't mindlessly lose all PP vs wailord or clefairy paralyzes it, auto losing to sub/roost articuno... I mean I could go on but yeah. Stall naturally has issues with these pokemon, PU happens to have enough of these random stallbreakers that it makes stall stupidly hard to pull off. Oh, and Roselia is in no way a Simipour counter, it cant switch in after simi knocks it off and has to always be at max health to take 2 LO ice beams with its eviolite. The fact is, facing better teams would have made your ladder journey stupidly hard (we really need to get some good teams on the ladder).

That was more for the random theory ramblings, since it didn't seem like you were grasping the point we were trying to make. Galbia literally just sniped me and honestly I don't care about the analysis (I'm not even qc, the issue was just stupid enough for me to post), but I guess I'll still post this because it took a while
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Just curious how you deal with opposing roselias cause they seem very problematic for your team.

I wouldn't be opposed to it getting another analysis if you did it yourself pif. The thing is that i think you need more toxic users to make it effective, as its p hard to keep tspikes up in this meta against competent teams imo. Having Toxic users as a must and making the set full stall I can see that set being good for certain teams.
 
To be honest, there are many ways to deal with the Rose. I personally use a Flying type Pokemon like Dodrio, or just any strong Physical attacker in General. Kadabra also decimates it with STAB Psychic/Psyshock
 

MZ

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To be honest, there are many ways to deal with the Rose. I personally use a Flying type Pokemon like Dodrio, or just any strong Physical attacker in General. Kadabra also decimates it with STAB Psychic/Psyshock
If you want to discuss Roselia's rank, I'd try viability rankings. As it is, I doubt it's going to be removed from S. Of course super effective hits do a lot, that's the point, but it's certainly not that easy when actually playing against it.

edit: oh it was a response to a comment a month ago. I mean it's still not nearly that easy to actually handle roselia, "hit with with a STAB SE move" isn't a good reason for wailord to be better or w/e
 

rubsomebacononit

I was cringe and annoying when I was on smogon RIP
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Thoughts on deslashing Hidden Power Grass on Zebstrika's analysis? Piloswine has moved up to NU and most of Hidden Power Grass's targets can also be hit by Hidden Power Ice (eg. Stunfisk).

Also I'll try to remove Piloswine mentions from the PU analyses :o
 
most of these are being covered in revamps (though they're going really slowly atm), but we can get rid of them for the mons that aren't getting revamps.

Anty edit: This is not to say we don't notice people doing CMS stuff..
 
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