Singles Break that Core (Week 17: Hippowdon + Lucario + Dragonite) ~ VOTING (post #395)

Voting for thecrystalonix just because Mega Bro checks both mons really well. It's a shame Blaziken gets Knock Off and Thunder Punch; my vote would've went straight to edavis707 if it didn't.
 
voting for tco
bro's really solid against both. beating suicune in cm wars is really nice and blaziken cant do much of anything to it.
 

DragonWhale

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thecrystalonix wins this week with his Mega Slowbro nomination! It was a really solid counter to this core that can't even lose from unlucky crits!

This week we're going to look at a rather intimidating offensive core that is pretty common in Battle Spot Singles. One Pokemon has a deadly combination of Belly Drum and a priority move, and the other Pokemon has many tools to clear a path for its teammate to sweep: Gengar and Azumarill!



What Pokemon do you use to deal with this core?
 

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Level: 50
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Beam
- Extrasensory

Greninja absolutely destroys this duo as before gengar mega evolves, greninja is faster than it and can take care of it with a dark pulse. It would be foolish for azumarill to set up on a greninja as a gunk shot ohkos an azumarill at full health. Also, if somehow azumarill does set up, even a +6 aqua jet doesn't ohko this ninja as long as it retains its water type that is.

Calcs
220 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 187-221 (139.5 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
36 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 213-252 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 116-137 (78.9 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Cresselia @ Mental Herb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Trick Room
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
- Lunar Dance

Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest/Quiet Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice

Mega Ampharos is already deadly under Trick Room, and it has more than enough Special Attack to rip through even bulkier variants of Gengar. The setup is simple: lead with Cresselia, and immediately proceed to Trick Room, then Lunar Dance. As Ampharos Mega-Evolves, it gains the Dragon typing, meaning that Azumarill can not KO it with +6 Aqua Jet.

calcs coming soon, don't worry.
 
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(Thundurus-Therian) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 SpA / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Dark Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast / Volt Switch


OHKO's gengar
248+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 146-174 (107.3 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Faster gengar won't OHKO it first
252+ SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Thundurus-T: 129-153 (83.7 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

OHKO's Azumaril
248+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 283-338 (151.3 - 180.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Volt Switch can help cope with Perish Trapping.
 
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Ditto@Choice Scarf
Ability: Impostor
EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
-Transform

Ditto can switch in safely on Mega Gengar's poison STAB or WoW, and outspeed(Scarf) and OHKO. It can also revenge kill Azumarill if it's at +6- you OHKO w/ Play Rough, while Aqua Jet is only a 2HKO. EVs and nature don't really matter much, the only thing you really want is 252 EVs in HP. Here are some calcs with Ditto's HP:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar(Ditto): 24-29 (19.3 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Mega Gengar(Ditto) Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 174-206 (127.9 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bulky: 0 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar(Ditto): 21-25 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO

0 SpA Mega Gengar(Ditto) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 152-180 (91 - 107.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill(Ditto) Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 444-523 (217.6 - 256.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill(Ditto): 99-117 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill(Ditto) Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 111-132 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill(Ditto) 111-132 (54.4 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill(Ditto) : 25-30 (16.4 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO

A few problems w/ this core are Substitute Gengar(Sub blocks Impostor. Also a problem if it subs turn you switch in. Your Shadow Ball will only break the sub, while its will OHKO,) CB Azumarill(Play Rough OHKOs, and you don't copy CB boost), and bulky Gengar since you aren't guaranteed to OHKO, meaning it might kill you w/ the Sludge Bomb you switch in on(presumably), w/ a Shadow Ball the next turn. Still, pretty decent against this core, and not overly niche.
 

Psynergy

Triumph and Glory
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What Pokemon do you use to deal with this core?
I just cry and lose.

But actually if this is still going I hear Raikou is a cool guy.


Raikou @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Extrasensory / Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch

This checks Gengar pretty well, outspeeding it before it Mega Evolves and hitting it with Extrasensory or Shadow Ball, while naturally threatening Azumarill with Thunderbolt or Volt Switch. Raikou needs the Life Orb to actually OHKO Gengar and Azumarill (unless they're running less HP), otherwise this would be Assault Vest to check Gengar better. It needs to be careful if Gengar is Sashed though since Azumarill may be able to revenge kill it with Aqua Jet, but otherwise does a good job of threatening both without having to go out of its way to cover them.
 
Voting for surgical_tubing. Life orb thundurus-t is a beast and really stops this duo but it can also stop the commonly used garchomp, landorus, and salamence with hidden power ice.
 
I vote for Psynergy. It's a toss up between Raikou and Thundurus sets for me. I do like the increased speed Raikou brings to the table, being able to outspeed not only normal Gengar but also other threats like Garchomp is an advantage in my opinion.
 

cant say

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this one was really hard this week, I visited this thread a few times to try and come up with a reliable one-mon counter to these guys and just couldn't. This is a really strong core, no wonder we lose to it in our streams lol. Any defensive answer to Azu gets trapped and killed by Mega Gengar with either Destiny Bond or Perish Song, which is why didn't nominate anything like Mega Venusaur, and anything that fast enough to get rid of Mega Gengar before it Destiny Bonds you needs to be able to survive a +6 Aqua Jet from Azu (to be considered a true), which is why I didn't nom Mega Beedrill.

In the end I was going to nom a Choice Scarf Rotom-W set but never got around to it.
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Ice
- Trick / Volt Switch

Enough speed to get the jump on Mega Gengar, put the spare EVs in Def so that Azumarill can't 2HKO you with a Play Rough + Aqua Jet combo (well it does if it gets a max roll on both attacks or a crit on either). Thunderbolt can 2HKO both, but you won't be sweeping this core with Rotom, as after you've killed off one then you're too weakened to beat the other bu you'll at least do a chunk with a Thunderbolt before you die.


I've gotta vote for what's there though, tbh I don't really like any of them except for maybe Greninja since it can at least force Azumarill out and then kill Gengar before it evolves, so I'll vote for aniravjain. I think regular Thundurus is better than Therian since you can go for a clutch t wave before you go down if you've just killed off Azu and too weak to beat Mega Gengar. Raikou is cool but since it can't OHKO Mega Gengar it'll just get 2HKOed by that or easily revenged by Azumarill. I was pretty close to voting for Ditto, it's actually probably better with a Focus Sash though..
 
Well cant say took the words straight out of my mouth. I did the same, been theorycrafting all I could to find a 1 mon nomination but I just couldn't.

Greninja has its flaws but I think it's the best nom. So I vote aniravjain as well.
 
this one was really hard this week, I visited this thread a few times to try and come up with a reliable one-mon counter to these guys and just couldn't. This is a really strong core, no wonder we lose to it in our streams lol. Any defensive answer to Azu gets trapped and killed by Mega Gengar with either Destiny Bond or Perish Song, which is why didn't nominate anything like Mega Venusaur, and anything that fast enough to get rid of Mega Gengar before it Destiny Bonds you needs to be able to survive a +6 Aqua Jet from Azu (to be considered a true), which is why I didn't nom Mega Beedrill.

In the end I was going to nom a Choice Scarf Rotom-W set but never got around to it.
Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power Ice
- Trick / Volt Switch

Enough speed to get the jump on Mega Gengar, put the spare EVs in Def so that Azumarill can't 2HKO you with a Play Rough + Aqua Jet combo (well it does if it gets a max roll on both attacks or a crit on either). Thunderbolt can 2HKO both, but you won't be sweeping this core with Rotom, as after you've killed off one then you're too weakened to beat the other bu you'll at least do a chunk with a Thunderbolt before you die.


I've gotta vote for what's there though, tbh I don't really like any of them except for maybe Greninja since it can at least force Azumarill out and then kill Gengar before it evolves, so I'll vote for aniravjain. I think regular Thundurus is better than Therian since you can go for a clutch t wave before you go down if you've just killed off Azu and too weak to beat Mega Gengar. Raikou is cool but since it can't OHKO Mega Gengar it'll just get 2HKOed by that or easily revenged by Azumarill. I was pretty close to voting for Ditto, it's actually probably better with a Focus Sash though..
Mega Beedrill's Drill Run (my set) doesn't even OHKO 4 HP Mega Gengar.
 
Pretty conflicted on this one. I really like Omastar's Ditto but it's use seems limited and Ditto's low HP makes it a little too frail for my taste. Aniravjain's set is more versatile but gunkshot's accuracy makes me nervous. Voting for Pynergy's Raiku because it's works reasonably well, doesn't have accuracy limitaitons, and it's an unexpected moveset (at least to me) to not have Calm Mind + Sub.
 

bobochan

slow mo my bobo
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I was gonna nom Technician Roserade but then AV Azu is relatively common on PGL stats so I refrained.
Just did some quick calcs and unfortunately LO Raikou does miss out on the KO against Mega Gengar.
Greninja is a top tier threat that can sweep teams if you don't bring the correct mons to battle.
With that said, going to vote for aniravjain since it's the safest way to beat the core.
Only bad thing with using Greninja is having to rely on Gunk Shot's poor accuracy against Azumarill.
 

DragonWhale

It's not a misplay, it's RNG manipulation
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Psynergy wins with his Life Orb Raikou nomination! Raikou is blessed with great coverage for an Electric-type, and it sure helps it out a lot here.

This week, we're going to have a special week and break a Kanto Classic core! For those of you who are not aware of what Kanto Classic is, it's Kanto Pokemon only with no held items. So let's begin!

On one side of the core, we have a Pokemon who is revered as the greatest Pokemon in the GSC metagame and is getting a slice of its old glory in this format once again. The other side is a Pokemon that works well with this behemoth thanks to its ability to switch in to hits that threaten his partner, and is simply a great Pokemon overall. Snorlax and Slowbro!



Remember, your nominations must be Kanto only and without items (i.e. no megas). The pool of available Pokemon is limited and it's first come first served, so don't wait too long! Identical Pokemon are okay so long as the sets themselves serve different enough purposes (e.g. Disable Alakazam and All-out attacker Alakazam). Have fun!

PS: Don't forget you can put multiple pokemon in a single nomination n_n. Not a lot of things can really beat this 2v1.
 
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Zapdos
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 SpD
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Roar

Snorlax won't out damage Roost recovery without boosts, and it can't paralyze Zapdos either. If it is a Curse variant, Zapdos can Roar it. That's not a full answer to it of course, but it wouldn't be a very good core if there was a good Poke that ruined it completely, now would it? How Zapdos deals with Slowbro is obvious. You don't OHKO, but the worst it could do is Ice Beam or Toxic, and the worst a standard set can do is Scald and burn, or Psyshock if they know you're specially defensive.

252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Zapdos: 76-90 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Zapdos: 150-177 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That seems pretty good, and this isn't even Bold. As long as it's not at +2 and you've taken Stealth Rock damage(or its boosted higher/you've taken other residual damage) or the last Pokemon you can just phaze it. Zapdos does low damage to Snorlax with Discharge, but that paralysis chance can come in handy(for the chance to cause full paralysis, not the speed lowering effect, obviously.)

0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 54-64 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

4 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Zapdos: 49-58 (24.8 - 29.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 36-43 (18.2 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

Even Ice Beam doesn't do much. I guess it's a problem with a few Calm Minds, but it pretty much never runs that, and needs several boosts to not get stalled anyways.

cant say edit: you forgot Zapdos vs Snorlax calcs:
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 51-61 (19.1 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO.....
 
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ethan06

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Gengar
Ability: Levitate
4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt
- Will-o-Wisp / Destiny Bond

Classic Stallbreaker Gengar. No Timid nature because Modest 252 still outpaces Jolly 95s (Arcanine) and there isn't a lot in the intervening Speed tiers to worry about, with all the big meta threats either being naturally faster (Alakazam, Dugtrio, Starmie, Jolteon etc.) or much slower (Snorlax, Clef, Slowbro, Chansey). Modest guarantees that Gengar can OHKO Slowbro after a Stealth Rock hit:

252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 182-216 (90 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And Taunt + Will-o-Wisp shuts down most variants of Snorlax, including the RestTalk set which can't touch Gengar. As for AV sets:

252+ Atk burned Snorlax Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 34-41 (25.1 - 30.3%)
252+ SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Snorlax: 78-93 (29.2 - 34.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Loses to Crunch variants and any Slowbro with SpDef investment but it's capable of doing heavy damage to both, and KOing or crippling at least one of the two. Run with a Pursuit trapper for the just-in-case instances where Shadow Ball doesn't KO - Aerodactyl is a good call for its ability to do heavy damage to an unboosted Snorlax.
 

Demantoid

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Articuno
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sheer Cold
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Freeze-Dry / Roar
OHKO moves are one of the best ways of beating the super bulky teams that have started appearing and Articuno is one of the best users. Articuno's massive bulk lets it easily tank attacks from unboosted Snorlax and Slowbro. Rest and Sleep Talk were chosen so Articuno could heal burns and paralysis it might suffer when switching in. Sheer Cold is likely to eventually hit and is the quickest way to take out Snorlax. Freeze Dry hits Slowbro for about 50% but Roar can be used to deter people setting up in front of Articuno. Articuno can switch in on both even if rocks are up but loses if it gets paralyzed by Snorlax's Body Slam. If needed you probably pp stall their attacks. A faster set is also an option to outspeed unboosted Dragonite, Gyarados, and Cloyster.

  • 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Articuno: 52-63 (26.3 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  • +1 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Articuno: 78-93 (39.5 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 4 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Articuno: 39-46 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
  • 0 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Articuno: 42-51 (21.3 - 25.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
  • 0 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Articuno: 37-45 (18.7 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
  • 0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 92-110 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 49.6% chance to 2HKO (guarenteed after rocks)
  • 252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Articuno: 82-98 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • +2 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Articuno: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 12 SpD Articuno: 42-51 (21.3 - 25.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
 

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