Metagame Sketchmons

Quick Ban

I think the idea of sketching belly drum is much more menacing than it actually is, because in execution, it's fairly easy to deal with and in some cases can be used to your advantage. However, the sheer presence of mimikyu makes bd overcentralizing, to the point that you're almost mandated to run unaware or a bulky steel mon that can deal with both mimikyu and snorlax. So while it's not completely bork like shell smash and the bigger issue in my opinion just being mimikyu, I do feel belly drum is toxic enough to warrant a quick ban.
 
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Suspect Belly Drum. While Belly Drum Mimikyu is indeed a big problem, bulky Roar users not weak to Ghost or Fairy can take a hit, and force it out. There are several other powerful users in Arcanine, Scizor, and Dragonite, and a suspect ladder will confirm how much the meta struggles with them, and how limited their checks are. Stall is likely to use Magearna or Quagsire, both of which can handle Belly Drum users for the most part.

Of course, that's not to say Belly Drum isn't broken. We just have a bunch of gray area to properly determine, and a suspect is a perfect chance to explore it.
 
Hmm. Qt made a good point. The thread won't be active because Sketchmons is already dead. So here's what I decided.

I'm gonna do what Flint did for Water Bubble, which is a voting whether it needs to be quickbanned or not, but there's no poll, because I'll do it in this thread.

So, vote whether Belly Drum needs a quickban or not. There's no reqs for this one, because it's originally meant to be a poll.

Vote like this,
Belly Drum: Quickban
Belly Drum: Suspect

Also please provide with reasoning. If your reasoning isn't valid, I might consider not counting your vote.

Because this isn't a suspect, I'll decide the one with over 50% number of votes.
What. I'm going to assume that this is just not thinking things through, but this is actually a terrible way to poll. There are a bunch of related issues here, and it all adds up to something worse than the some of the parts. If you want to know how to actually do this kind of thing, here's a link to get you started on the stuff I'm not covering here for brevity: https://www.qualtrics.com/blog/writing-survey-questions/
Issue A: Free voting. There's a reason for suspect test requirements, and that's the fact that it filters out uninformed posts. Even just picking a few top players and listening to them would be better than this, because at least then it would be correlated with what's broken. In the past, open votes have shown themselves time and time again to be a bad idea, and that arriving at the right result is almost completely luck based. Sketchmons will do better here than normal because not very many random voters will know about it, but the lack of foundation here makes the next parts even worse.
Issue B: Biased polling. Nowhere is there an option for not suspecting, which means the decision tree is actually <A or [A or B]> rather than <A or B>. Based on the way this tends to work, this poll makes it much more likely that Mimikyu will be banned in a way that is not correlated with healthyness.
Issue C: Begging the question. Your poll, rather than gathering opinions, assumes and limits the possible answer space. Because the only options are suspect vs quickban (rather than wait, do not suspect, etc), this instead leads to an automatic suspect or ban regardless of brokenness. To show how bad this is, imagine if you had put bulbasaur in there instead of belly drum: it would still be suspected, because there isn't any other option.
Issue D: The numbers. Quick Bans are reserved for pokemon that are so broken it isn't worth the time to suspect them; thus, it takes more evidence to quickban. The way you have it at 50-50, even something that wouldn't get banned by a suspect could still get banned by this.

With that being said, I suppose I'll have to say Suspect, as the lesser of two evils. Quite frankly, Mimikyu is nowhere near broken, and its GSI such as Kartana, Clefable, Mega Scizor and are extremely splashable, and it doesn't lack in partial answers such as Mega Metagross, Mega Pinsir, and Tapu Lele. Overall, I don't see any real reason to conclude that any pokemon is unbalanced with it, much less the entire move in general.
 
Im voting suspect.
From my experience I can confirm that mimikyu is very comon, and pretty much a staple on any HO team, however i personally dont feel as if its over-powered at all. I wouldnt even say it is in the top 3 mons in sketch rn.
The only valid argument i can see for ban is that its overly centralising, however to be quite frank, a lot of stuff wall it, and a lot of stuff can 1v1 it. Literally any unaware mon (clef/quag) wall it af. Also so many things outspeed it if ur running ho, that it really shouldnt be too much of an issue.
 

Fissure

Cotton Candy Thighs
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
lovely kiss is banned but sleep powder is not. I would assume this is so because sleep powder does not affect grass types, mons with overcoat, or mons with saftey goggles while lovely kiss effects everything.
 
All Grass-types have a built-in immunity to Sleep Powder (as well as the higher accuracy Spore), as does anything holding Safety Goggles. Lovely Kiss is not stopped by either of those things, so it's the superior move by enough of a margin that it's worth drawing the line in between them.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ban Belly Drum

Still intrigues me to see people still want this in the meta when it can turn the tide of the match in one turn due to one mistake on the opposing end. It really does not promote skillfull play and can allow lower level players to beat higher level players if the team does not have at least 2 checks to the BD mon (and I aint just talkign about Mimikyu here, Hawlucha and Zygarde also deserve a mention. This move has no place in the current meta and should go immediately.
 
As I've said before, Mimikyu isn't very good, much less the others, but I can shout untill the sun burns out without being any more than anectdotal evidence. Thus, I tried to find out what makes it so broken... and found nothing. Does anyone (Chloe. Funbot28 Laxpras gmfc The Official Glyx ) have an example, any example, of Belly Drum Mimikyu being unhealthy or broken? I'd prefer examples unique to Mimikyu that wouldn't be done equally well by another mon/Sd coverage Mimikyu, but at this point any will do.

Looking at the sketchmons open: Mimikyu has a 24.5% usage rate, which is decently high but nowhere near MMeta, Tapu Lele, Landorus, Zygarde, or Greninja. It's also been pretty uniformly unimpressive.

Looking at Daily Finals: Mimikyu has a pathetic 6.25% usage, only being used once to date:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7sketchmons-532577151 Mimikyu gets a KO vs a weakened mon and injures another



Ban Belly Drum

Still intrigues me to see people still want this in the meta when it can turn the tide of the match in one turn due to one mistake on the opposing end. It really does not promote skillfull play and can allow lower level players to beat higher level players if the team does not have at least 2 checks to the BD mon (and I aint just talkign about Mimikyu here, Hawlucha and Zygarde also deserve a mention. This move has no place in the current meta and should go immediately.
A repeat of the above, but what has led you to this conclusion? As of right now, I'm unconvinced that any belly drum user bar Mimikyu or maybe Snorlax is even viable, much less unhealthy. Have you used either of Hawlucha/Zygarde?
 
Hm... after a few quick matches involving Belly Drum... I've come to a few conclusions.

1.) Belly Drum on its own is okay on most users. They are able to be outsped and KOed before they can do any serious damage. For those with priority, the damage can be taken nicely. The most problematic of these users, barring involvement of Sketched moves, is Azumarill, in my opinion.

2.) Belly Drum with unnatural priority is an issue. This includes Snorlax, which can easily make a sweep happen due to its sheer power. Snorlax can also OHKO Celesteela with Fire Punch, as well. While I think it's Snorlax that causes this issue (and why a ban on Sketchable Belly Drum won't fully solve the issue)

3.) The more variety and power the Belly Drummer has, the greater the issue. With something like Dragonite or Snorlax, your hand can easily be forced into something you don't want (thanks to the combination of Extreme Speed and coverage), or you simply have to stay one step ahead of them, or get your team wiped. This also applies to Mimkyu, as it has an easier setup, but the ghost imitation is far less powerful.

With everything considered... we might need to end up either enlisting a complex ban to deal with these effects, or just simply banning Belly Drum as a whole (which I am okay with). Calling Snorlax and Mimikyu unimpressive is not going to work when they can simply wait for the Tapu Lele and the Ghost/Steel to get KOed, and then a sweep most likely happens, if they can get off a Belly Drum...
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Does anyone (Chloe. Funbot28 Laxpras gmfc The Official Glyx ) have an example, any example, of Belly Drum Mimikyu being unhealthy or broken?
Personally, I think Mimikyu sucks, but lots of other people don't for some reason, which is why it's popular. I personally just dislike what could come from Belly Drum once people get past the idea that Mimikyu is good, since you could just slap Belly Drum/Z-Belly Drum on near anything fast or with priority and boom, it becomes a threat, or the reverse, slap a priority move onto something that already gets Belly Drum and do the same thing. It might not be the most effective strategy in the world, but it has the potential of becoming centralizing enough that something would need to be done about it in the future if we don't do something about it now. Mimikyu alone is already on most sketchmons teams, even if it doesn't perform well.
 

Fardin

Tournament Banned
Here are some calc to help people decide if Mimikyu should get a quick ban or nah. ( BTW Mimkyu is just so fragile, sitrus berry would be stupid and pointless on it)
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 465-547 (115 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 501-589 (125.8 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 403-475 (120.6 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 164 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 288-338 (84.2 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (70% of gross doesnt run BP in sketch)
+5 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 480-565 (125.6 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are obv some mons that can outspeed it and live a hit from sneak, but if manage to chip some health away from them during the battle(which isnt so hard with the right team), Mimkyu can just come in late game and sweep teams. It def deserves a quick ban imo..giving it a suspect would be a waste at this point and we should rather just focus on the bigger problems in this meta like pinsir/gross/phermo etc.

Also QT: in most of ur replays, ur opp didnt know how to use mimkyu correctly and their teams were just bad
 
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Here are some calc to help people decide if Mimikyu should get a quick ban or nah. ( BTW Mimkyu is just so fragile, sitrus berry would be stupid and pointless on it)
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 465-547 (115 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 501-589 (125.8 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 403-475 (120.6 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. 164 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 288-338 (84.2 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (70% of gross doesnt run BP in sketch)
+5 252 Atk Mimikyu Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 480-565 (125.6 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There are obv some mons that can outspeed it and live a hit from sneak, but if manage to chip some health away from them during the battle(which isnt so hard with the right team), Mimkyu can just come in late game and sweep teams. It def deserves a quick ban imo..giving it a suspect would be a waste at this point and we should rather just focus on the bigger problems in this meta like pinsir/gross/phermo etc.

Also QT: in most of ur replays, ur opp didnt know how to use mimkyu correctly and their teams were just bad
Sure, a lot of the replays were bad. The problem is, there aren't any good replays, and those are the closest thing Sketchmons has to a competative area. As far as I can tell, most of the hate for mimikyu is entirely theorymon, with maybe a touch of ladder experience. If anyone has has evidence to the contrary, please show it, but as is I'm not even seeing how this is an issue for just about any well built team. What makes it so obviously and indisputably broken that it cannot even be suspected? If your issue is a suspect taking time away from something else, just call for a suspect on that instead of going after a bad pokemon.
 

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
Sorry to break your discussion about Belly Drum, but I'd like to ask you what do you guys think about this ?

Gigalith @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Toxic
- Shore Up

I tried it and it seems decent as a rock setter.
In this meta, he gets Shore up, so he can finally recover himself, especially since Shore Up has a better recovery under the Sandstorm.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Why Nerdy what is happening with bdrum? Something should really be done before the tour goes much farther... There's also things like Pheromosa which are completely broken and then stuff like Boomburst PoryZ which is at least suspectable... imo the meta should be cleaned up asap so this open can be as legitimately competitive as possible
 
Why Nerdy what is happening with bdrum? Something should really be done before the tour goes much farther... There's also things like Pheromosa which are completely broken and then stuff like Boomburst PoryZ which is at least suspectable... imo the meta should be cleaned up asap so this open can be as legitimately competitive as possible
Agreed, a decision would be nice. Pheromosa is, as Lax has suggested, completely ridiculous, and getting this belly drum situation out of the way one way or another is an important step forward in that.
 
Why is pher broken? I personally use it as a lead, and find it to be a fantastic lead, but by no means broken. Maybe im missing out on something tho.

As for belly drum, i think honestly just run a suspect test. I have expressed my opinion earlier (that its not really broken at all) but if people want it suspected then imo just go with it. I am fairly confident that the majority of people do not think its broken anyways, so a suspect test would appease everyone. As its the open, it would be helpful to get a st over with quickly, as otherwise teambuilding can be a bit of a pain.

Finally, Laxpras mentioned pz earlier... and I have to say this thing is in dire need of a suspect. I dont think people realise how broken this is. It 2KHO's chansey if its specs boomburst (guaranteed if rocks are up). Like honestly... if ur not running a ghost type, and u see this thing in the team preview... ur in deep trouble. I just personally think that if a mon has literally no switchin other than a ghost type, it definitely warrants a suspect. And then you can even factor in the fact that pz can alsoo run zconversion and like moongeist beam so yeah... its scary.

WTF:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 330-390 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
Sorry I was really, really busy irl. As a result of the poll, Belly Drum has been banned.

Tagging The Immortal

This decision is rushed because people insist on it due to the open. I am sorry for this. Because of that, I assure you that I will not make this kind of decision again. After this, there will NOT be any more quickbans and things will be properly suspected before they were banned.
 
Why is pher broken? I personally use it as a lead, and find it to be a fantastic lead, but by no means broken. Maybe im missing out on something tho.

As for belly drum, i think honestly just run a suspect test. I have expressed my opinion earlier (that its not really broken at all) but if people want it suspected then imo just go with it. I am fairly confident that the majority of people do not think its broken anyways, so a suspect test would appease everyone. As its the open, it would be helpful to get a st over with quickly, as otherwise teambuilding can be a bit of a pain.

Finally, Laxpras mentioned pz earlier... and I have to say this thing is in dire need of a suspect. I dont think people realise how broken this is. It 2KHO's chansey if its specs boomburst (guaranteed if rocks are up). Like honestly... if ur not running a ghost type, and u see this thing in the team preview... ur in deep trouble. I just personally think that if a mon has literally no switchin other than a ghost type, it definitely warrants a suspect. And then you can even factor in the fact that pz can alsoo run zconversion and like moongeist beam so yeah... its scary.

WTF:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 330-390 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I'm potentially biased because I run stall, but pheromosa is essentially a guessing game every time it comes in. Between standard coverage of bug buzz/hjk/focus blast/pjab/ice beam, it's already hard to answer, but add in a sketch move and it gets worse. You essentially pick and choose what pokemon on a very short list (Doublade, Alolan Marowak, Mantine, MVenu, and toxapex) wall you; any given coverage option picks off three or so, so you have to run multiple of these+soft checks on nearly any given team.To make matters worse, even if you've already scouted for and found blades so your mantine can switch in, they can stil uturn out and gain momentum+rocks damage on your mantine. You can't trap it with Dug/Weav/Ttar, either, so it's "If rocks come in on the field and they don't screw up, you lose." What makes it different from other breakers like Hoopa-U, however, is that you don't sacrifice your offensive presence either, as Pheromosa is a great cleaner versus offense as well.

Even in sketchmons with transform, chansey shouldn't be running max HP. HP investment is far less effecient than a 4/252+/252 spread, since what you lose in max hp you make up for in HP not lost to attacks and defensive utility. This can actually take specs boomburst; 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 264-312 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. The issue of trick still exists, of course, but at least this can wall. Tyranitar is also a good answer, to all sets (Z-conversion ghost, specs, scarf, Z-conversion electric), Specdef Rachi takes both choice sets, Specdef Celesteela takes anything bar Thunderbolt; certainly, it's extremely hard to answer, but "no switchins" oversells it a little.
 

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