Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Muscle K

Banned deucer.
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After using the three 'mons, the rankings granted to Diancie and Latias seem suitable - Diancie is arguably the tier's best mega, being a fantastic offensive check to Pinsir and zard as well as serving as an excellent stall breaker, set-up sweeper and even a balance breaker when ran with nature power and koko can break through the popular Celepex or Celetine core with incredible ease. As well as that, Diancie acts as an excellent anti-lead against most, if not all variants of ho leads, being able to prevent rocks and webs from 'mons such as Azelf, Skarmory, Garchomp and Smeargle, while also preventing Ninetales from setting up veil. TL:DR Diancie is a fantastic choice this meta, and I can honestly see it being in A+ simply because its so good.
There's not much to say about latias, apart from the word "fantastic". In all seriousness, Latias has yet again proven to be a great pick, being an effective balance breaker, easily sweeping through most, if not all with cm boltbeam + Stored Power. While stored power is it's most effective set, creative sets such as reflect type sets being utilised efficiently. Latias' ranking is perfectly fine atm, but similarly to Diancie, I can see it moving up to the A- rank in the future.

Altaria has suffered greatly to the transition into the new generation, being outclassed as a sweeper, stallbreaker and wallbreaker, as well as loosing the value of its niche. As a sweeper, Altaria finds very little opportunity to setup a Dragon Dance - which is its only viable set in the current meta - without HEAVY support - and even then, it is checked by the tier's most common walls, including Celesteela, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Toxapex - with the former countering every potential set and the latter having to fear earthquake and the only mentioned 'mon that doesn't immediately threaten it. As well as that, it is outclassed as a sweeper by 'mons such as as Mega Tyranitar, Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence and Charizard-X - all of which having a better stab combination, as well as possessing higher offensive capabilities, whether it can achieve that through the means of superior attack stats (all of which do btw), superior bulk in the case of Mega ttar, Zard-X and Dnite and some having the capabilites of possessing a z-move.

tl:dr Even when compared to the 'mons of the B- rank, Altaria fails to compete for not only a mega slot, but as a sweeper / breaker in general. i Believe it honestly deserves a drop.

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Koko is undeniably A+ material, which is why I won't give much detail about it. Tapu Bulu, however, is difficult. It has so many qualities that warrant both to keep it in A+ but also to drop it to A. Since the release of mega diancie, there has been a surge of usage in 'mons such as Scizor, Celesteela and Vensaur, effectively reducing Bulu's capabilities as a wallbreaker. However, bulu still sees utility as an excellent support 'mon - providing grassy terrain for ground weak 'mons such as Diancie, Camerupt, Heatran and Magearna - as well as acting as an excellent stallbreaker, being able to easily beat spl and ciele stall builds.
As I post this today, bulu's positive qualities outweigh the negative meta trends, which is why I disagree with a Bulu drop.


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Go Read Cheryl. and BPGXMG posts for reasoning because i've just spent a whole fucking hour forming a brief argument that most aren't going to bother reading
But i'd like to add the fact that meta trends are not kind to this thing. As stated above, Scizor and other bulky steel types are seeing an increase in usage after the mega diancie release, meaning that Togekiss has a harder time adapting to the meta. While it does gain access to nasty plot and moves such as Fire Blast and Focus Blast / Aura Sphere, the most common (and only relevant) stallbreaking set runs a mono attacking set, which doesn't help it against anything.
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Lower to C+ : Meta trends aren't exactly favourable, as well as sash zam being a massive gimmick. Basically outclassed by most other special attackers.
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Remain in B: Slowbro is incredibly good on Bulky Offense, where it serves as a fantastic check to basically most physical attackers not named Tapu Koko. Unlike Toxapex, it isn't completely passive since it has a great movepool and great special attack stat. It's good defensive typing allows it to check 'mons that Pex can't, such as Lele, Heatran (Z / Earth Power and doesn't mind being trapped) Swampert, Non Dark Pulse Gren, Kyub, etc.
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Remain in C+ : Volcanion is a good balance breaker and stallbreaker. Can beat most balance builds with its stab alone and has good bulk, which can allow it to take on some offensive builds, such as veil, where it can easily cripple Zygarde and Landorus with Steam Eruption's high burn chance and threaten Magearna once it's Z move has been used.
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Rise to B: Birdspam v2. is only one of many examples of Dragonite's position in the meta - an incredibly power Z Move abuser that can consistently setup. And they said gyarados and salamence outclassed it ha dumbasses
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Rise to A: Incredibly Anti-Meta, being able to easily 6-0 the veil and webs and easily walling the tier's new addition in the form of Diancie and Latias
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Rise to A+: I've made a post on this before, but anyways, raise -
the usage stats WCoP and OUPL certainly agree with this, as well as it being an incredibly good and diverse wall in the current meta.
 
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Leo

after hours
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After using the three 'mons, the rankings granted to Diancie and Latias seem suitable - Diancie is arguably the tier's best mega, being a fantastic offensive check to Pinsir and zard as well as serving as an excellent stall breaker, set-up sweeper and even a balance breaker when ran with nature power and koko can break through the popular Celepex or Celetine core with incredible ease. As well as that, Diancie acts as an excellent anti-lead against most, if not all variants of ho leads, being able to prevent rocks and webs from 'mons such as Azelf, Skarmory, Garchomp and Smeargle, while also preventing Ninetales from setting up veil. TL:DR Diancie is a fantastic choice this meta, and I can honestly see it being in A+ simply because its so good.
There's not much to say about latias, apart from the word "fantastic". In all seriousness, Latias has yet again proven to be a great pick, being an effective balance breaker, easily sweeping through most, if not all with cm boltbeam + Stored Power. While stored power is it's most effective set, creative sets such as reflect type sets being utilised efficiently. Latias' ranking is perfectly fine atm, but similarly to Diancie, I can see it moving up to the A- rank in the future.

Altaria has suffered greatly to the transition into the new generation, being outclassed as a sweeper, stallbreaker and wallbreaker, as well as loosing the value of its niche. As a sweeper, Altaria finds very little opportunity to setup a Dragon Dance - which is its only viable set in the current meta - without HEAVY support - and even then, it is checked by the tier's most common walls, including Celesteela, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Toxapex - with the former countering every potential set and the latter having to fear earthquake and the only mentioned 'mon that doesn't immediately threaten it. As well as that, it is outclassed as a sweeper by 'mons such as as Mega Tyranitar, Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence and Charizard-X - all of which having a better stab combination, as well as possessing higher offensive capabilities, whether it can achieve that through the means of superior attack stats (all of which do btw), superior bulk in the case of Mega ttar, Zard-X and Dnite and some having the capabilites of possessing a z-move.

tl:dr Even when compared to the 'mons of the B- rank, Altaria fails to compete for not only a mega slot, but as a sweeper / breaker in general. i Believe it honestly deserves a drop.

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Koko is undeniably A+ material, which is why I won't give much detail about it. Tapu Bulu, however, is difficult. It has so many qualities that warrant both to keep it in A+ but also to drop it to A. Since the release of mega diancie, there has been a surge of usage in 'mons such as Scizor, Celesteela and Vensaur, effectively reducing Bulu's capabilities as a wallbreaker. However, bulu still sees utility as an excellent support 'mon - providing grassy terrain for ground weak 'mons such as Diancie, Camerupt, Heatran and Magearna - as well as acting as an excellent stallbreaker, being able to easily beat spl and ciele stall builds.
As I post this today, bulu's positive qualities outweigh the negative meta trends, which is why I disagree with a Bulu drop.


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Go Read Cheryl. and BPGXMG posts for reasoning because i've just spent a whole fucking hour forming a brief argument that most aren't going to bother reading
But i'd like to add the fact that meta trends are not kind to this thing. As stated above, Scizor and other bulky steel types are seeing an increase in usage after the mega diancie release, meaning that Togekiss has a harder time adapting to the meta. While it does gain access to nasty plot and moves such as Fire Blast and Focus Blast / Aura Sphere, the most common (and only relevant) stallbreaking set runs a mono attacking set, which doesn't help it against anything.
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View attachment 87222 Lower to C+ : Meta trends aren't exactly favourable, as well as sash zam being a massive gimmick. Basically outclassed by most other special attackers.
View attachment 87221Remain in B: Slowbro is incredibly good on Bulky Offense, where it serves as a fantastic check to basically most physical attackers not named Tapu Koko. Unlike Toxapex, it isn't completely passive since it has a great movepool and great special attack stat. It's good defensive typing allows it to check 'mons that Pex can't, such as Lele, Heatran (Z / Earth Power and doesn't mind being trapped) Swampert, Non Dark Pulse Gren, Kyub, etc.
View attachment 87219Remain in C+ : Volcanion is a good balance and stallbreaker. Can beat Chansey with Superpower since Sludge Bomb isn't really needed since Fini is no longer relevant.
View attachment 87220Rise to B: Birdspam v2. is only one of many examples of Dragonite's position in the meta - an incredibly power Z Move abuser that can consistently setup. And they said gyarados and salamence outclassed it ha dumbasses
View attachment 87218Rise to A: Incredibly Anti-Meta, being able to easily 6-0 the veil and webs and easily walling the tier's new addition in the form of Diancie and Latias
View attachment 87217Rise to A+: I've made a post on this before, but anyways, raise -
the usage stats WCoP and OUPL certainly agree with this, as well as it being an incredibly good and diverse wall in the current meta.
Hey man, I don't like nitpicking others' arguments (in fact I hate when people do that) but I can't let this slip through. Volcanion is by no means a Stallbreaker and is never going to be one lol. Superpower may be a cool move to surprise a Chansey switchin in theory but in practice it's terrible because even if you run a bad set with Life Orb and Atk evs to do 50%, the Attack drop means that you're never 2hkoing chansey without a zcrystal because it can just spam Softboiled and get back to full. If you were thinking of running a z move like some Greninjas do, then you're walled by Toxapex still. And even if you somehow manage to crit through Chansey, Dugtrio traps and gets rid of Volcanion. I fail to see any real reason to use this mon in the current meta and I totally agree with Night Train Lane's arguments for it to drop
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
A ---> A+
A ---> A+

Drops
A+ ---> A
A+ ---> A
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
B ---> B-
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C+
B- ---> C+
C+ ---> C
C+ ---> C
C ---> Unranked


  • Ferrothorn is one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, thanks to its amazing bulk and defensive typing, as well as the ability to setup Spikes in the face of a large portion of the metagame. Its ability to check dangerous threats such as Ash Greninja and non HP Fire Protean Gren, Tapu Koko, and rain teams is very valuable. Its also one of the few defensive Pokemon in the metagame that can be troublesome to switch into; most Leech Seed immune Pokemon hate being Knocked Off, while other Pokemon like Heatran and Celesteela become much less threatening without their Lefties.
  • Tapu Koko has always been a great Pokemon, but its viability has always fluctuated at certain points. Now however, Tapu Koko is easily one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Z Wild Charge sets are very strong, and have the ability to royally fuck walls such as AV Gear, Chansey, Mew, and Clef. It's a very useful stallbreaker with insane pivoting and supporting abilities that makes it a huge bitch to deal with. It's also very versatile in general, being able to run many variations of support moves such as Roost, Taunt, and Natures Madness, as well as Choice Specs and Farium Z. Electric Terrain also provides very valuable support to teammates such as Mega Camel and Mega Diancie.
  • Mew is still a great Pokemon, but its viability has fallen off a bit over the past few weeks due to the metagame adapting to it. Pokemon such as Greninja are running Dark Pulse much more often, Tapu Koko is running sets such as Z Wild Charge and Specs to break through it, Clefable usage is at an all time high, Tapu Bulu's are starting to run Sub more often, Latios' are seen running CM sets which can use Mew as set up fodder, and both Mega Diancie and CM Mega Latias can be quite troublesome for it.
  • Much like Mew, Bulu is still a very good Pokemon. However, the influx in Mega Venu hurts it quite a bit, which forces it to forgo a moveslot for Zen Headbutt or start running Rockium Z more often. The massive influx in phys def Steela as well as Mega Scizor is also causing its Grassium Z set to lose a lot of viability, and now forcing it to run Fightinium Z in order to properly break them.
  • Zard Y dropping can be described in three words: Shed Shell Pex.
  • Keldeo's main niche was being a good Choice Scarf user that compress the roles of revenge killing Volcarona as well as other things such as Greninja. With balance at an all time high, Keldeo's usefulness and inability to break the many Pex, Mega Lati, and Venu balances running around is hurting it quite a bit. People are also gravitating towards other Scarf users, such as Kartana and Lele. Specs is still very strong and is able to run through teams that use AV Gear as their Keldeo switch-in, and the lesser usage of AV Growth helps this. Waterium Z is a decent set but is definitely not enough to keep it in A rank.
  • Mega Slowbro's viability to wall certain threats such as Zygarde and Landorus-T has worsened due to the massive influx in Toxic Spikes, as well as Dark Pulse Greninja seeing much more usage than before, and Sub DD Zygarde being able to effectively stall out Mega Bro with T-Spikes in play.
  • Mega Altaria's niche is at muscling through unprepared teams. Despite this, more teams are more prepared for it than weak to it, and it's not enough to keep it the same rank as something like Hawlucha or Mega Camel.
  • Nidoking just really doesn't see enough usage to justify its B- rank.
  • Togekiss' niche is mostly as an annoying stallbreaker, but it fails to break through Double Defog stall or any stall carrying Zapdos, so its niche is no longer as strong. It's also forced to run coverage for the massive amount of Steels running around, such as AV Gear and Steela, which keeps it from being able to run Heal Bell.
  • Mence faces a ton of competition from both Gyarados and Dragonite.
  • Nihilego is walled by a large portion of the meta and is very much outclassed as a Scarfer. T-spikes is the only thing keeping it ranked.
  • Volcanion is a strong hole puncher but just faces so much competition from the tier's plethora of other breakers. Mega Latias' introduction into the tier also sucks for it too.
  • Mega Pidgeot is pretty much non-existent, and practically any team wanting to run an offensive Flying-type breaker will just run Tornadus-T. No it's not a stallbreaker in 2017 either, because Zapdos exists. This + Mega slot = no viability.
Tapu Bulu A+ to A: All agreed
Mew A+ to A: All council agreed
Mega Diancie A to A+: Most were against it for now
Tapu Koko A to A+: All agreed
Ferrothorn A to A+: All agreed
Volcarona A+ to A: 50/50 like always
Keldeo A to A-: Mostly all agreed except one
Mega Latias B+ to A-: Most disagreed
Mega Slowbro B to B-: All agreed
Mega Altaria B- to C+: Most agreed few disagreed
Nidoking B- to C+: All agreed or didn't care
Salamence B- to C+: All agreed or didn't care
Togekiss B- to C+: All agreed except one
Nihilego C+ to C: All agreed or didn't care
Volcanion C+ to C: All agreed or didn't care
Mega Pidgeot C to C-/Unranked: All agreed or didn't care


Discussion Slate

A ---> A+
B+ ---> A-
B ---> B-
C+ ---> B-

YEET
 
A ---> A+
B+ ---> A-

I agree that both of these Pokemon should rise. Especially in OLT we've seen a huge number of players gravitate toward reliable breakers that can easily get 1-2 kills per game and have virtually no safe switch ins. Even though Dugtrio is still very common, the sheer power of these two Pokemon makes them incredibly threatening to any archetype. KyuB could have risen for a while now IMO, but Specs Lele in particular has been everywhere (on y4/Kanto's team, for instance) and dual Psychic STAB can 2-3HKO even resists, like AV Magearna and MixDef Celesteela. Meanwhile its other sets are just as good as ever; Shed Shell Lele is still a serviceable stallbreaker, and Choice Scarf Lele is probably the best revenge killer in the tier if you already have a Volcarona check (or bank on not facing a Volcarona - which is another plus for Lele). Kyurem-Black's only real switch in is like...Mega Scizor, and if you don't have one then Subzero Slammer probably kills something. It also destroys Mega Venusaur cores such as Venusteela which is valuable.

No opinion on Gallade, and I haven't used Hippowdon, but the latter has also seen use in OLT so I don't mind if it goes up.
 
Lele - awesome power, decent speed and a versatile Pokemon to boot, making it harder to check. Switch in Celesteela expecting the Scarf set and boom - Specs Thunderbolt 2HKOs. Access to Psyshock allows it to effectively go mixed, and being able to protect its team from priority is huge. A+

Kyurem-B. I've been saying this for months, it needs to rise. Brilliant wall breaker (my favourite set is Ice Beam, Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, Roost), can put in a lot of work vs stall (wrecks Pex, Skarmory, Tangrowth and Celesteela). Agree with A-

Gallade is just not that good. As a Mega I'd much rather use Latias or Medicham, it's ability sucks and Mega Sableye stops it dead. Personally I'd drop it to C+

No opinion on Hippo haven't used it in OU.
 
Hippo deserves to go up to B-. IMO, it's got a solid niche as a Stealth Rock setter that has reliable recovery and phazing, so it's not setup bait. It can handle a lot of threats such as Mega Diance, Mega Pinsir, Rockium Z Lando-T, Specs Tapu Koko, and more. The ability to reset weather in an emergency is also a nice bonus although you really don't want to ever switch into Rain abusers or Mega Charizard Y

SpDef Hippo (252/252 but with an Impish Nature) handles Mega Diance easily (unless it has Energy Ball due to Bulu's Grassy Terrain but in that case you wouldn't even switch in), and it can still avoid the 2HKO from Jolly Mega Pinsir's Return after Rocks.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
I'll go over the slate first:

Lele to A+ - Agree. Let's take a look at Venu/Pex/Celes. Two of those mons are weak to Psychic, while the third struggles with Thunderbolt and HP Fire - it is 3HKOed by both, which can be hard to recover at times. Scarf Lele appreciates the meta slowing down, as its speed tier is much more valuable. Shed Shell Lele can be quite harsh on stall; Chansey can't really switch in, as Psyshock 3HKOes and Taunt makes it useless, while everything else is hit rather hard by the appropriate coverage move. This to me warrants a rise.

Kyurem-Black to A- - Agree. This thing is a monster. People are now beginning to realize that it can in fact run multiple sets - 3 Attacks + Roost and Icium Z in particular. The latter set absolutely crushes Pex/Venu/Celes. Stall is also limited on answers. Definitely an A- mon rn.

Gallade to B- - Agree.
Its niche was beating Mew, and if Mew drops, it needs to as well.

Hippowdon to B- - Indifferent.


Now, for my own nominations:
Right now, C+ is far too large. Some mons need to drop, and others rise.

Mega Gyarados to C
- Why would anyone ever use this? Celes/Venu/Pex laughs at it, any offensive play style will render it useless, and it faces competition from stall breakers that actually have utility outside of breaking stall.

Primarina to C-
- This is in a bad spot right now. Balance ruins it - Water/Fairy is completely walled by Celes/Pex/Venu. Stall has answers in Toxapex and Chansey. As always, offense ruins it.

Altaria-Mega to C/C-
- This is just really bad in this metagame. It's deadweight vs balance, doesn't do much to stall - Unaware Clefable and Skarmory wall it unless it has Fire Blast, which is worse coverage for it than EQ otherwise - and any offensive team will outspeed and KO.

In addition, Breloom needs to get UR. The council I believe must have forgotten about this in a similar vein to Rotom-Wash and Volcanion. It's no wonder, because it's never used. It's absolutely garbage in this metagame. Pex/Celes/Venu laughs at its dual STAB, with Bullet Seed needing 5 hits to reliably 2HKO Pex, Continental Crush only doing half to Celes - which roasts it with Flamethrower - and Venu being in a similar situation, OHKOing with Sludge Bomb. If it goes for the boost, Continental Crush/Bullet Seed can in fact break through them, but Celesteela has Protect and Seed isn't gonna break through Venu or Celes. With proper play, this thing will do nothing vs the core. Stall also manhandles it, with Skarm living to Counter it, Zapdos outspeed and Heat Waveing it to death (CC isn't a guaranteed OHKO without the boost it's never gonna get), Pex once again being present to stop it, and Clefable just hard walling it. This isn't to mention that Mach Punch isn't really enough to salvage it vs offense, as Lele is once again rising in popularity, along with Birdspam returning. Finally, in a meta filled with Electric terrain and Grass types, Spore isn't very helpful. This thing has no place in OU right now.

Now, for upper-tier noms:

Excadrill to B+
- This is beginning to find more usage, as it's super handy on rising HO styles. In particular, Birdspam appreciates its ability to spin reliably. It also appreciates the slower meta, as its Choice Scarf set is no longer half as bad as it used to be.

Alolan Marowak to A-
- Z-Wild Koko is truly stopped by this, and so is Ferro. Pex/Celes/Venu can't switch in at all. Stall is 6-0ed by this unless Dugtrio runs Pursuit, which isn't really all that great on it. Mega Diancie is bad but it'll never get the chance to come in on those Shadow Bones. The meta in general is lacking strong ghost resists right now, as the only other ghost to prep for - Gengar - has fallen off rather badly.

That's it for now I guess.
 
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to B-
I used it on SM OU and is great to handle a ton of threats like Lando-T, Chomp, Zygarde, M-Loppuny and others because of the combination of phazing, reliable recovery and great physical bulk. It also offers role compression being able to set up Stealth rocks. Also, it can run Stone Edge, surviving Zard Y's Fire Blast most of the time (6.3% to OHKO) and +1 Volcarona Fire Blast and +2 M-Pinsir's Return and OHKO them with Stone Edge (however, at cost of Whirlwind).
But it does its job very good at handling many OU top tier threats.
 
Tapu Lele to A+ --> Agreed
Tapu lele is a great wallbreaker and scarf revenge killer that saw great usage in olt. It also has sets like calm mind, twisted spoon, and of course, shed shell, that can catch people off guard. It also can run focus blast for steel types, thunderbolt for celesteela, hp fire for scizor and ferrothorn etc to beat its "Counters"

Kyurem Black to A- --> Agreed
I think that this thing is realllllly good. Icium Z is absolutely broken, because as stated before, unless they have a mega scizor they automatically lose a mon. It also does have other sets to catch people off guard such as specs special, specs mixed, band physical, band mixed, life orb mixed, or expert belt. I personally used this a lot in olt, and I think that actually it should go as far as to A, as it was really a star on my team in battles.

Gallade Mega to B- --> Definitely Agree
I never understood why people said that this is so good. I think that actually it should drop to c+, because seeing this in the same rank as azu, zard x, camel, dragonite, and especially mega mane does not sit well with me. It has good stats and a decent movepool, but it gets walled by so many things like celesteela, mega scizor etc.

Hippowdon to B- --> Agree
This is amazing on balance, being able to wall everything that everyone above me said. It also can run stone edge to punish zard y, pinsir, volcarona, etc, whirlwind to phaze out sweepers like zard x, pinsir, and dragonite is amazing. It also has toxic for lando, obviously earthquake, stealth rocks and a bunch of other utility moves. Sand is also great on defensive mons
 
to A+ ---> Agree

Koko still takes the title for best Tapu atm, but this thing is still incredibly good. Lele has the capability to destroy every playstyle with a different set and is always something a team needs to watch out for when building. Cele/Pex/Venu (and stall as a whole) gets destroyed (mostly the latter two but Steela has problems with coverage) by Shed Shell + Fightinium set, it can dent basic Psychic and Fairy checks such as Ferro and Steela, and Scarf Lele is effective as ever with Ash Gren and Koko preceding to run rampant and 100+ speed scarfers aren't as common anymore, making its speed tier a lot better. Rise

to A- ---> Agree

While I'm not the best at using this thing, I can admit it's only gotten better. It really has no solid switch ins with its coverage and power on both of its sets, and the Icium Z set gives it a nuke that decimates a lot of things that could switch in to attacks from fully special/specially based mixed sets.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 177-209 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 388-457 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 620-732 (170.7 - 201.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Kyu-B also has the ability to hit common Ice/Electric switch ins like Heatran and Magearna with things like Earth Power. It's speed tier isn't bad either and it resists powerful STABs that dent other offensive threats such as Ash Gren's Water moves and Koko's Electric moves. And when it gets down, it even has recovery to top all this off, Roost being a very solid move for a wallbreaker like Kyurem-Black. Definitely rise.
to B- ---> Agree

Leaning towards rise for Hippo. It can serve as a decent blanket check to Lando and company, and not dying to an Ice move before you set up an SR unlike Lando and sometimes Chomp is nice. It also gets Whirlwind, which is cool for forcing out things like DD Lando and SD Chomp, and is an emergency counteraction to sweeps. It definitely has a niche over Lando, as well, due to reliable recovery, something that allows it to remain a consistent check to mons like Koko and Magearna throughout a match, something Lando cannot do. Definitely a nice mon.
to B- ---> Agree

I haven't used Gallade, but if anything I'd go towards drop due to Medicham's existence and how many things can take a hit from it and just not hitting hard enough sometimes. Hitting ghosts super effectively isn't really a solid niche because aside from Gengar and Alowak ghosts are scarce rn and the former gets OHKOed by Zen Headbutt anyway. Knock and Poison coverage as a whole though as well as having a much better speed tier than Cham is enough to keep it in B- over C+.
 
Kyuremb to A-
This mon is really annoying. There is no doubt in it's utility against fat teams but against offence is is exactly as annoying. Very little can actually OHKO it with full health. Mainly diance and loppuny and that's all! Like I am not even kinding. SD chomp with dragon claw has slim 18% to OHKO, unless you want to waste your crystal right there. Scarf lele can do so, but you are locked into moonblast and enemy can take advantage of that really easily. Kartana also fails to OHKO, CB zygarde risk speed tie.... Yeah, this mon almost always gets minimum one kill.

I think that garchomp might rise. Balance is taking ladder and not much of it can really deal with this mon. Z ground and z draco are both amazing in sniping some key defensive mons like landorus t, tangrowth, clef. In my opinion one of best wallbreakers right now.
 
to A+ agreed

Specs Lele enjoys some metagame trends.
1) SD Mega Scizor rising and Specs Lele is the best check in existance
2) Celesteela running more physdef (192+) these days to handle the rise of Bird Spam better
3) People using Mew and Tran as a pivot to scout which move you are locked into but with Specs there is nothing to scout because you 2HKO easily

Modest is also a nature people have been using as of late and the reasons are simple:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 174-204 (45.1 - 52.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 168-198 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 332-392 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Psychic Terrain: 144-169 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

One of the biggest weakness to any choiced Lele is Psychic and Fairy having common immunities or resists. Facing Pex+Greninja or Mega Venu + Bisharp can be annoying because you have to predict correctly. Being locked into Psychic invites in very threatening Darktypes and it always sucks to have immunties to your strongest attack. I still think that Specs is its best Set because of the raw damage. Having the freedom to use Thunderbolt also eases the matchup against Pex+Gren. One should note however, that a resisted Psychic in Psychic Terrain is stronger than a regular Thunderbolt.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
  • Nidoking just really doesn't see enough usage to justify its B- rank.
I thought usage didn't indicate viability? I here this all the time and it's just supposed to be ignored for nidoking?
anyways i think kyub should definitely rise, icium z is just a nuke and it has awesome coverage such as fusion bolt for bulky waters and earth power/focus blast for steels.
Lele i really like tbolt on to slap celesteela and greninja (if u are scarf). also z move sets are nice to lure people who think you are scarf. Also both these mons are still very good vs stall, and kyub is a check vs rain (kabutops is losing traction and if kingdra clicks draco you can exploit that easily.
Also i agree alolan wak deserves to rise if tapu koko is now in a+ and it really has great coverage vs celesteela, toxapex, tangrowth, etc. it also has good support options in rocks and wow
and I definitely agree with unranking pidgeot, it's really trash
 
I agree with the rise of Lele, esp now since specs lele are now a real thing. All of its sets are just super deadly. It can run scarf (which imo is the best clean up scarfer with its incredible hitting power), it can run specs and 2ohko mons that actually resist psychic (with rocks/spikes). It can run shed shell taunt + 3attks to destroy stall. It can run z move fighting to destroy trans (common switchins), it can also run z move thunder/bolt (which is, tho, not common at all, or just never seen) to destroy steela . But z move thunder ohkos physical steela, which have seen a huge rise in usage recently. Z move tbolt ohkos after rocks, while having 70% or so to ohko without rocks.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I thought usage didn't indicate viability? I here this all the time and it's just supposed to be ignored for nidoking?
anyways i think kyub should definitely rise, icium z is just a nuke and it has awesome coverage such as fusion bolt for bulky waters and earth power/focus blast for steels.
Lele i really like tbolt on to slap celesteela and greninja (if u are scarf). also z move sets are nice to lure people who think you are scarf. Also both these mons are still very good vs stall, and kyub is a check vs rain (kabutops is losing traction and if kingdra clicks draco you can exploit that easily.
Also i agree alolan wak deserves to rise if tapu koko is now in a+ and it really has great coverage vs celesteela, toxapex, tangrowth, etc. it also has good support options in rocks and wow
and I definitely agree with unranking pidgeot, it's really trash
I don't mean literal usage like on the ladder, but Nidoking just sees such little use in any setting, be it ladder and tour scene. It doesn't really make sense to have Nidoking in such a high ranking when it's such an uncommon sight, and for good reason. Its niche is very small, and the fact that it hasn't been used in any major tour match since early SPL where ABR used it iirc, shows its lack of viability.
 
I don't mean literal usage like on the ladder, but Nidoking just sees such little use in any setting, be it ladder and tour scene. It doesn't really make sense to have Nidoking in such a high ranking when it's such an uncommon sight, and for good reason. Its niche is very small, and the fact that it hasn't been used in any major tour match since early SPL where ABR used it iirc, shows its lack of viability.
Do you think nido role as a scarfer is know to most people or do you asume it is life orb?, in any case it can get surprise kills if they dont know what set it is and stay in vs scarf mostly.
 
Do you think nido role as a scarfer is know to most people or do you asume it is life orb?, in any case it can get surprise kills if they dont know what set it is and stay in vs scarf mostly.
That's it's only use. Surprise. Life Orb is its only niche, because without Life Orb it's not an effective wallbreaker at all.
 
Do you think nido role as a scarfer is know to most people or do you asume it is life orb?, in any case it can get surprise kills if they dont know what set it is and stay in vs scarf mostly.
Nidoking's role as a Scarfer is known to most people...as pure dogshit. If your only reason to use a mon is "surprise factor" then literally any Pokemon that is capable of holding a Choice Scarf fits the bill. I get that snatching a few kills on ladder with a meme set is enough to convince some people, but the Scarf set is outclassed by other revenge killers in literally every facet EXCEPT being so bad that no one will see it coming. By running this item you prevent Nidoking from ever fulfilling its main and only niche of wallbreaking with Sheer Force + LO boosted coverage, which is still not an awful niche fyi (breaks a sizable number of fat staples such as Cele / Pex / Clef). Don't force a mon to do something it isn't suited to unless you have a good reason, which you don't.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
scarf nidoking is like scarf bulu, like sometimes you get a kill on some fast guy and you feel kinda good but then they send out some other guy that sets up on your attack and you regret everything

3d passed me the ice spam team with kyub and i did some laddering with it, kyub did insanely well and i think it needs to rise. coverage just smacks everything that tries to resist ice and icium z destroys guys like celesteela and ferro. it's an absolute menace to face, like it's just so easy to bring in and threaten to ohko your puny landorus-t.

meta trends have been in kyub's favor. fall of zard y is good because that's one less mon it gets threatened by, koko rise is also good because kyub can check koko and switch into thunderbolts or maybe z wild charge if needed. rise of venu is also stellar for it because it can just ice beam that guy, thanks to teravolt ignoring thicc fat. you don't even need z freeze shock.

real players charge up freeze shock on celesteela protect
 
Unranked-> C

Remember Nihilego? The mon whos only Set that is not outclassed means get up hazards and absorb Toxic Spikes for your team? Well, I think Nidoqueen does this simply better because of the superior defensive typing.
Compared to Nidoking, Nidoqueen is much bulkier which also reflects into its movechoice:

Nidoqueen (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Poison Jab
- Earth Power
- Thunderbolt / Flamethrower

This mon is probably the best partner for Vincune because it absorbs and sets up Toxic Spikes while countering Electric-mons, especially Koko who is kinda terrorizing the metagame with his unpredictable Sets. Nidoqueen can keep up the hazards against Double Defog Stall easily as well because it beats Zapdos and Skarmory. It can also function as an emergency Mega Diancie check after some prior damage. With Sheer Force boosted Poisn Jabs you can counter CM Clefable but Poison Point is also viable to punish U-Turns from Koko and to give your Poison Jabs a chance to poison. Also a solid counter to AV Magearna that lack Ice Beam, who can be very tough to switch into for some teams.

My opponent used this against me (I choked with Mimikyu btw):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-622413458
 
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Why is Dragonite higher than Salamence? I understand that there's a laddering team running around rn with Pinsir/Manphy/Mimkyu/Dragonite/ but Dragonite as a whole isn't more effective as a late game cleaner than Mence.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Why is Dragonite higher than Salamence? I understand that there's a laddering team running around rn with Pinsir/Manphy/Mimkyu/Dragonite/ but Dragonite as a whole isn't more effective as a late game cleaner than Mence.
Mence faces heavy competition from both Nite and Gyarados for a team slot. There just really isn't much of a reason to run it anymore. Its main niche was cleaning up teams that primarily used Scarf Lele as their revenge killer, but nowadays 101+ Scarfers are more common. D-Nite and Gyarados both find it much easier to set up, and potentially clean because of their typing/abilities.
 

Avant Heim

formerly The Bill Cipher
Kyurem Black to A- -----> Agree

This this is amazing. It has 170 base attack and 120 base special attack, meaning it can attack from BOTH sides. Icium Z with Freeze Shock is actually way too powerfull(the only things that can tank it well are Toxapex and Mega Scizor), and even then Toxapex is beaten by Fusion Bolt and Mega Scizor is burned alive by HP Fire. Also 3 attacks+Roost is also a fun set to use.
Also, i must give credit to the choice sets, they really catch people off-guard
Venu/Cele/Pex is eaten alive by this mon, as stated before

Tapu Lele to A+ -------> Agree

This thing is amazing. It destroys all the playstyles because of it's variaty of sets. The choice locked sets are very dificult to tell apart(aside from damege input), you can bring Celesteela in thinking it's Scarfed and T-Bolt wipes the floor with you. The famous Cele/Venu/Pex core is also destroyed by this mon, since Venusaur and Toxapex are weak to Psychic moves( Psychic terrain helps out) and Celesteela is weak to Thunderbolt and HP-Fire.

Psychic Terrain is also a very good thing, since it blocks priority, meaning that Mega Scizor can't Bullet Punch it and Mega Mawile can't Sucker Punch it.

Also, it's very good agains stall, because it beats Mega Sableye, it beats Cele/Venu/Pex and renders Chansey useless due to Taunt( it stops terrain stalling)

Hippo to B- ------> Agree

It's a solid rocker that has reliable recovery and phazing(so it's not setup bait like Chansey). It also is excellent at pressuring top tier mons like Tapu Koko, Mega Pinsir, Mega Diance and Z-Lando T.
 
Kyurem Black to A- -----> Agree

This this is amazing. It has 170 base attack and 120 base special attack, meaning it can attack from BOTH sides. Icium Z with Freeze Shock is actually way too powerfull(the only things that can tank it well are Toxapex and Mega Scizor), and even then Toxapex is beaten by Fusion Bolt and Mega Scizor is burned alive by HP Fire. Also 3 attacks+Roost is also a fun set to use.
Also, i must give credit to the choice sets, they really catch people off-guard
Venu/Cele/Pex is eaten alive by this mon, as stated before

Tapu Lele to A+ -------> Agree

This thing is amazing. It destroys all the playstyles because of it's variaty of sets. The choice locked sets are very dificult to tell apart(aside from damege input), you can bring Celesteela in thinking it's Scarfed and T-Bolt wipes the floor with you. The famous Cele/Venu/Pex core is also destroyed by this mon, since Venusaur and Toxapex are weak to Psychic moves( Psychic terrain helps out) and Celesteela is weak to Thunderbolt and HP-Fire.

Psychic Terrain is also a very good thing, since it blocks priority, meaning that Mega Scizor can't Bullet Punch it and Mega Mawile can't Sucker Punch it.

Also, it's very good agains stall, because it beats Mega Sableye, it beats Cele/Venu/Pex and renders Chansey useless due to Taunt( it stops terrain stalling)

Hippo to B- ------> Agree

It's a solid rocker that has reliable recovery and phazing(so it's not setup bait like Chansey). It also is excellent at pressuring top tier mons like Tapu Koko, Mega Pinsir, Mega Diance and Z-Lando T.
Please do not simply summarize what the mon does. Statements like "it has 170 base Attack and 120 base Special Attack" do not offer any insight into how the Pokemon functions in the metagame. For instance HP Fire is not a common move on Kyurem-Black because it prefers Earth Power for the likes of Magearna and Heatran. Your argument could cite the Koko + KyuB core which allows Fusion Bolt to 2HKO these two Pokemon and so allow the use of HP Fire over Earth Power. Please also mention the uses of the 3 attacks + Roost set since being fun alone does not warrant a rise.
As for Lele, again, please do not simply summarize basic information such as "Psychic Terrain blocks Priority." How does this affect its viability? For one you could mention the recent rise of Mega Scizor which Tapu Lele checks well. Then you could discuss cores such as Mega Diancie + Tapu Lele or Mega Alakazam + Tapu Lele. But let's look at what you actually did write; Choice locked sets are very easy to tell apart if you use the damage calculator or simply have enough experience to deduce what the damage rolls should be. Only Choice sets (technically Electrium Z as well but no one uses it) run Thunderbolt so you need to predict Celesteela coming in anyway. Stall also easily handles any Tapu Lele variant bar Shed Shell since Dugtrio traps and removes it for good. Plus Cele/Venu/Pex does not constitute Stall.

Anyway, I'd like to discuss Mega Latias. I don't know if I'm the only one, but to me this Pokemon is easily one of the most threatening Megas in the tier at the moment. It slots in very nicely on balance and its speed allows it to check so many threats that many other defensive Pokemon could not dream of beating, such as Offensive Landorus-T and Mega Pinsir. This thing is so bulky that it can set up on half the Fairies in the tier and Greninja (the most relevant Dark-type) struggles against CM / Thunderbolt. If you do not have Tyranitar or fail to preserve your Toxic user then you need to play immaculately to prevent a slow and steady sweep. Beyond CM it also has options such as Roost + 3 attacks (a Zapdos-esque set that was used on the Liones team) and utility options such as Roar / Reflect Type / Thunder Wave. I really want to raise this to A- but my only concern is that these latter options are quite rare. Still it can run through common team archetypes such as Venusteela and I am curious to see whether or not you guys agree with me. I don't expect it to rise next update but maybe in upcoming tours such as Snake and OLT Cycle 4 + Playoffs we will see whether or not it is actually good.
 
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