Project SM OU Weekly Research [Round 16: Greninja & Mega Latios]

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Indigo Plateau

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Taken over from starry blanket
Thanks to Ark for hosting the UU version of this thread, giving me the idea for doing the thread in this manner as opposed to previous editions
Co-hosted with Team Pokepals & FMG & Gross Sweep
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(Until we get a real banner)​

Hello everyone and welcome to the new, revamped SM OU Weekly Research thread! In this thread, the focus will be on playing with a variety of different Pokemon through a laddering competition phase, where the goal, along with being the highest on the ladder compared to the other competitors, will be to see how each of the test subjects of the week fare in the OU metagame. The laddering phase will be paired with a discussion phase, where anyone that is participating will give their thoughts on the test subjects' performances in the metagame, what sets are best, the teams they fit on best, etc.

Procedure/Rules:
  • Each week, 2 Pokemon will be chosen as our "test subjects".

  • There are two options in order to participate in the research:
    • You can go on Pokemon Showdown and create a brand new WR# alt and proceed to try and top the ladder. You do not have to reach #1 on the ladder; you will only be competing against everyone else who has signed up with a WR alt for that week.
      • WR Alt Example: WR(Week#) (Name) - WR1 Eclipse for Week 1, for example.
    • Alternatively, you can ladder with an alt of your choice as long as you provide evidence that the alt belongs to you. Since this is a new addition, please reference this post for further details.
  • You will post in this thread with your alt name as well as the Pokemon(s) that you will be using for the week. If you want to make a new alt, edit your post in the thread saying that you made a new alt. If you fail to post in the thread with your corresponding alt, you will be disqualified from winning for the week.
  • From there, start laddering! Get a team with any of the test subjects and go try and reach the highest on the ladder competing with the other WR competitors.
  • The laddering phase and discussion phase begin immediately at the start of the week; you may post at any time during the week for the discussion phase.
  • During the week, you must post in this thread about your experiences with any of the test subjects that you played with. Note: You don't need to post any more than once during the round. Your post doesn't have to be insanely detailed, although the more detailed your post, the better of a chance of you winning the discussion phase of each round.
  • When posting, you can include (but are not limited to):
    • Strategies used
    • Sets used
    • How you went about building with the Pokemon
    • General strengths / weaknesses you noticed about the Pokemon
    • If the meta is in favor of the Pokemon or not
    • How the Pokemon fares in high level / tournament play (examples are nice here)
    • And much more...
  • There will be one Hall Of Fame for the posting phase which users will compete to have their name in.
    • There will be two winners of the posting phase, one for each test subject; the winners of the posting phase will be the users who make the best post about their test subjects in all of the different categories listed above; the winners of the posting phase will be decided by my co-hosts and I.
  • Also recommended is that you please save your replays while laddering. Replays are always nice to see directly how the Pokemon perform in battle, so please save replays often to show how the tesr subjects do in normal matches.
  • Your posts for the posting phase don't need to be super lengthy & detailed, but they shouldn't be super short and simple. I'm not gonna put some arbitrary regulation on how many sentences you should have, but you should have at least a small paragraph.
Those are the rules; at the end of the day, I just want you guys to go out there and have fun using a number of underexplored and fun Pokemon, because at the end of the day that is the whole point of this thread, so go out there, and get to researching!

Round 14:

 
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Eclipse

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Round 1:


The first week of the Weekly Research will be focused on the two newest megas! Mega Sceptile and Mega Swampert saw usage last gen, but it's time for you guys to research and see how they do in the current metagame. Post in this thread with the WR1 alt you will be laddering with, as well as the mons you will be using, then get to researching! Laddering and discussion phase will end on Saturday, June 10th at 10:00 PM GMT-4/EST!
 
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Eclipse

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is a Contributor Alumnus
Making an announcement that to give everyone more time to ladder, the current round will last 10 days, so this round will end on the 10th
 
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GMars

It's ya boy GEEEEEEEEMARS
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Aight, played about 18 games so it's time for my discussion post!

Preliminary analysis: Mega Sceptile is trash. At the very least, it's very difficult to build with.

I tried two different team compositions - A modified variant of a team I got passed and HO with Tapu Bulu support as a wallbreaker.

Here's the final variant of the first team:
Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Will-O-Wisp
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock

Sceptile-Mega (F) @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Earthquake
- Giga Drain

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 144 HP / 188 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Landorus-Therian @ Earth Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Smack Down
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Taunt
- Calm Mind

Nihilego @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

In 18 games, Mega Sceptile did nothing. One time it clicked EQ on an 18% tran, that was cool. Other that that, it more often found itself missing out on OHKOs, 2HKOs, or becoming sac fodder. Despite this, this team was fun - Calm Mind Tapu Fini was surprisingly effective on it.

I'd rather not post the other team since it's so trash haha

Mega Sceptile has the same problem it did last generation in that it lacks power and struggles to pick up KOs. It seems like it could perform effectively if the other team was significantly worn down and it gets a neat new option in Grassy Terrain support, but more often than not Grassy Terrain undid any crucial chip and it invalidates Sceptile's ability to get past magearna and heatran with a potential EQ. Now that volc's big any real team has a scarfer that inevitably blows mega scep away, so I end up wishing it was a scarf UB more than a mega. There has yet to be a single game where I felt it was worth giving up a mega slot for.

Hopefully other people have more success with it!
 
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So, the past week of laddering with Mega Swampert has definitely been quite fun. I find that Mega Swampert is great in the OU tier. Rain has always been one of my favorite playstyles, and mega pert just makes using it much more enjoyable. Sure, rain is pretty matchup oriented and obviously mega Swampert won’t always get its chance to shine, but in all my games with it I have found that it usually picks up at least one kill per match, which is great. I managed to peak around 1700 with Mega Swampert.

Proof of Peak:

https://prnt.sc/fh9cyi



Overall: B+

Mega Swampert, I have found, is a huge threat to offensively based teams with its great typing and power. In addition, its 100/110/110 is very nice to allow it to take hits from strong threats like Tapu Lele, Zygarde, and Greninja. Water/Ground is also very useful defensively, allowing it to beat electric types like Tapu Koko, Magnezone, and Mega Manectric, and also blocking Volt Switch in general. Its massive attack of 150 allows it to muscle through common Pokemon such as Zygarde, Landorus-t, Toxapex, Heatran, Celesteela, Jirachi, and so on. However, like all Pokemon, it has its flaws. Common grass types like Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, and Ferrothorn can take hits from Swampert and retaliate back with their 4x effective STAB attacks. Despite the fact that Landorus-T takes a huge hit from rain boosted Aqua Tail/Waterfall and Ice Punch, it can use Intimidate and Rocky Helmet to pivot around mega Swampert and stall out rain turns. Another problem for it is that, in rain, it still misses out on outspeeding pokemon like opposing Kingdra. It also gets outsped by common scarfers like Terrakion and Garchomp which can pick off Swampert if weakened, and if it wants to outspeed them it has to forgo an Adamant nature for Jolly, meaning it misses out on a lot of its power. Lack of reliable recovery also hurts Swampert because of its ability to be worn down by Rocky Helmet/Iron Barbs, and then becoming more susceptible to priority moves like Water Shuriken. All in all, despite its flaws, Mega Swampert proves to be an effective wallbreaker and rain sweeper that can heavily dent an unprepared opponent’s team.


Good Matchups:


Decent / Situational Matchups:


Bad Matchups:




Playstyle Matchups:

Offense:

Mega swampert has a great matchup versus offense. Its powerful STABs and coverage run through offense staples like Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Landorus-T, and Magearna. Swampert is bulky enough to take hits from attackers like Tapu Koko and Zygarde, and only really falls over to potential Z-moves like Magearna’s Twinkle Tackle and Landorus-T’s Supersonic Skystrike, both of which are still rolls. When combined with Pelipper’s rain allowing it to outspeed everything that isn’t holding a Choice Scarf or boosted in any way (Magearna’s Shift Gear, Greninja’s Z-Happy Hour, Landorus-T’s Rock Polish) it just runs through most offensive teams. Webs offense is a little frustrating because if you lead Ferrothorn to block the Spore, the opponent gets up Sticky web and Stealth Rock with Smeargle and then goes into one of their setup sweepers like Pinsir, Bisharp, or Celesteela and goes ham. Webs have been dying down a little bit in usage lately, however, which allows Mega Swampert and the rain goons to just power through offense much more. Another thing worth mentioning is that since most offense teams can’t necessarily find a solid team slot for hazard control, Ferrothorn’s Spikes assist in Mega Swampert’s cleanup. Most offense teams usually have something like an AV Tangrowth which checks Mega Swampert very well, so all I did was pair it with something that can beat bulky grass types like Life Orb Tornadus-T.

Balance: Mega Swampert has a decent matchup versus balance. It muscles through Toxapex, Landorus-T, Zygarde, Alolan Marowak, and Magearna, and also forces out Zapdos because of its offensive pressure combined with the fact that Zapdos can’t touch mega Swampert unless it fishes for a Heat Wave burn. However, Regenerator cores with Pokemon like Slowbro, Amoonguss and Tangrowth, as well as other fat mons like Mantine, really shut down Mega Swampert. Amoonguss and Tangrowth tank an Ice Punch with ease and retaliate with their STAB grass moves or Amoonguss can Spore. Slowbro is bulky enough to eat up Earthquakes, and if it is Mega it can stall it out and fish for Scald burns, or use it as setup fodder either with Calm Mind or Iron Defense (had this happen to me one game.) When not in the rain, Skarmory and Celesteela can annoy Swampert because Skarmory can set up Spikes or Counter while using Roost to shrug off damage, and Celesteela can use Leech Seed + Protect to chip away at Swampert’s health. Overall, since most balance teams have Pokemon with reliable recovery and good checks to Swampert, it finds itself doing only decent versus the team. I find that balance can wear down my rain pretty well and definitely make it hard for Swampert to do much, but it certainly isn't dead weight on the team.

Stall: The current stall build of Mega Sableye/Dugtrio/Chansey/Clefable/Toxapex/Skarmory takes a number from Mega Swampert. Rain-boosted Aqua Tail allows it to 2hko Chansey provided that it hits, and its STAB hits everything neutrally or super effectively. However, when playing an experienced and sensible stall player, they will play smart and stall out the rain, and then proceed to either recover or wish/protect spam, or status Mega Swampert with Sableye's Will-O-Wisp or Chansey's toxic, to then finish it off with Dugtrio. Stall is annoyed by Mega Swampert but can easily beat it. Other stall builds usually invalidate Swampert because they will most likely have alomomola/tangrowth/amoonguss etc.

Strategies and Sets:

I find that mega swampert really only has a place in OU on rain, rain offense, to be precise. It shines well on these sorts of teams for self-explanatory reasons. Here are the two main sets I tried:
Offensive Rain Sweeper

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Aqua Tail / Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Toxic / Stealth Rock / Superpower / Stone Edge / Sludge Wave / Rain Dance

This is definitely the most reliable Swampert set i have used, it's pretty self-explanatory. The last moveslot, as you can see, can be filled with a variety of moves, which is one of Swampert’s problems: four moveslot syndrome. You will be more weak to a certain Pokemon depending on the last move you choose. Toxic helped me cripple switchins like Tangrowth, Slowbro, Mantine, and Rotom-Wash. Stealth Rock I used when I didn’t have a Stealth Rocker, and it also pressures stall a little more. Superpower lets me hit Ferrothorn for around 60%. Stone Edge allowed me to 2HKO Mantine and Pelipper which are quite frustrating to deal with, might I add. I tried Sludge Wave when i noticed a huge weakness on my team to Tapu Bulu,because with rocks up it is a guaranteed OHKO. I tried Rain Dance as last move as well because it helped give Swampert a second chance to shine once my Pelipper died. I have used both Aqua Tail and waterfall, Aqua Tail gives you a guaranteed 2HKO on Chansey with rain up, but waterfall is more accurate and generally more viable.

Physically Defensive:

Swampert @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Roar

This is a set I tried, not to much success. With good typing, it seemed like a decent check and pivot into CB Zygarde and tapu koko, but I found that over the course of the match, it got worn down and pressured way too much by the likes of Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Greninja, etc. Also the fact that sleep talk pulls rest 250% of the time didn’t help. Speaking of which, rest just gives pokemon like Volcarona and Magearna setup opportunities. Overall, this set was not good and i don’t recommend it. It basically destroys Swampert’s potential as a rain sweeper, while also taking up your mega slot for something potentially more versatile and threatening like Mega Mawile or Mega Medicham.



Building with Swampert-Mega:

I didn’t build with swampert all that much, I made two teams here that were decent, I guess.



https://pastebin.com/L6szQSTs

This team basically functions like a rain team does, with Kingdra and Pert as the two main sweepers, Ferro benefiting from rain and setting up Spikes, Volcarona helping versus opposing Ferrothorn/Tangrowth etc, and Clefable with Healing Wish to give Volcarona/Kingdra/Swampert a second life.



https://pastebin.com/wqihYQfT

I’m not too confident about this team because Mega Swampert can basically run through it lol. The idea was to pair it with Specs Pelipper to provide rain for Swampert and break through bulky Grass types for Swampert. Muk helps versus Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Charizard-Y. Toxic Landorus-T lets it poison Tangrowth and Zygarde to help break down the opposing side further. Healing wish Clefable, again, helps to bring back Kingdra/Swampert.



Most of my laddering was done with more solid, tested teams with Mega Swampert that I didn't build myself.





Metagame: In Favor or Not?

Overall I would say that the metagame is in favor of Mega Swampert’s arrival. Mega Swampert’s best matchup is versus offense, which is arguably the most common playstyle running around on the ladder right now. It struggles a bit more versus stall, but when played correctly and paired with the right Pokemon it can work very well. I like where this Pokemon is heading.


My prediction is that this Pokemon will land itself somewhere around B+ rank in the OU Viability Rankings.

Edit: Just checked the viability rankings, looks like Mega Swampert is B+. Call me a god. lol

And there you go! If you haven't tried out Mega Swampert, I would definitely recommend it. When played correctly, it is a dangerous rain abuser that can run through some of the most common archetypes right now.

Here are some replays of it in action.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-585596134
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-585910521
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-586243052
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-586248787

Hope you enjoyed! :]
 
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I used Msceptile, and didn't get nearly as far as I'd have liked to. Tried maybe 5-6 teams before landing on one that worked. I started the climb out of low ladder and realized sceptile was far and away the most underutilized and underperformant member of the squad, often not even seeing a turn of play. The team was only decent cause moxiedos is a god.

It's complete and utter lack of defensive utility is it's undoing. It's resistance to electric almost doesn't matter cause the most common coverage seen alongside elec is ice and sceptile drops to literally anyone's ice attack.

Anyway here's what I ran. Idea being that the only times Mscept comes in is on mons that are 100% forced out, so you work up on the switch, and now have considerable power. Leaf storm's drop makes this hard to maintain. The only situation in which this works out is the rare one in which you can
1. work up on switch out
2. ko incoming mon w dpulse
3. ko heatran w eq
4. use leafstorm
5. die

I didn't try any other sets cause I just really wanted to make work up work.

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Work Up
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Earthquake

Hopefully next 'week' I can be not trash about this.
 

cityscapes

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hello unlike the other mega sceptile users in this thread i used the HEAT SET sd mega sceptile

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Outrage
- Earthquake

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fly
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Roost

Magnezone @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Stone Edge

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Soft-Boiled
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock

Gyarados @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Waterfall
- Bounce


so yeah sd scept takes advantage of common defensive answers such as chansey and av magearna. it's honestly such a hilarious mon to use because even tho it gets stopped by lando, you can usually get a free turn anyway because lando is not a sceptile switchin.

however mega sceptile, of course, is not without its flaws, the chief of which manifesting itself when my max attack sceptile failed to ohko a tapu koko with eq. in retrospect, the koko was probably a bulky variant a la figy berry, but still that's kinda pathetic. base 110 is not good with sceptile's stabs. also it can't really switch in on anything, for example it doesn't count as a ground resist when lando just blows it back with hp ice and literally any of zyg's other moves besides karrows wins. also scarfers are everywhere and sceptile kinda does nothing to them. the same applies to steels, you guys have already seen how well a 2x weak mon took a fully invested eq, now just imagine how much less a bulkier mon like magearna would take from an uninvested one.

being a water resist that can't do a thing against rain is also pretty pathetic

yeah honestly the only mscept variant i would recommend is 4 attacks leaf storm/dragon pulse/hpfire/eq, use focus miss too if you like. every move is honestly so necessary on sceptile due to its stabs' bad coverage. even then it often struggles with stuff so i would recommend using another mon instead

now that this is done i'm going to build around articuno swampert rain and i'm sure it's going to be better than sceptile. sorry lizard buddy, wish you were better :<
 

Eclipse

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is a Contributor Alumnus
That concludes this round, thanks to everybody for participating, and congrats to PsychoCut42 for winning the ladder phase! Meant to do this yesterday night but fell asleep lol. I'll give anyone else who participated a couple of hours to post any of their findings in the thread, and later I'll post the new round as well as the posts that are being archived for each mon. Make sure to post if you get the chance!
 

Eclipse

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is a Contributor Alumnus
Alright this round is over! The posts that are being archived are this post by Silver_Lucario42 on Mega Sceptile and this post by PsychoCut42 on Mega Swampert. I'll add your posts to the Hall of Fame when I get the chance.

Round 2:

Two of the recently released megas, Mega Tyranitar has proven to be much better this gen than last gen due to the lack of its offensive checks such as Mega Lopunny, with its great bulk allowing it to easily set up and win the game. Mega Manectric is a bit more polarized; some people like it, others believe the meta has already adapted to it. Overall though, Manectric is still a decent threat due to its great Electric/Fire/Ice coverage along with its phenomenal speed tier. We will be researching these two mons in this round, so post in this thread with the WR2 alt you'll be using, then get to researching! Laddering and discussion phase ends on Wednesday, June 21st at 12:00 PM EST/GMT-4.
 
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