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Resource SM PU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'PU' started by Megazard, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. Good J

    Good J

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    I said damage wise you can compare Magmortar and Combusken, because as you said the most common set is special for Combusken and Magmortar gets about the same moves and hits harder therefor outclassing it. There's also a lot more i said to the argument such as IF Combusken misses its low accuracy moves that it is basically a wasted mon, Rotom frost on the other hand doesnt automatically lose if it misses a blizzard, because it has decent bulk. Orciorio and Swanna both run fly z for the fact that hurricane just isnt accurate or reliable, for those who run scarf Oricorio they know the risk, considering hurricane helps Oricorio a lot more than focus blast helps Combusken in this current meta. Its not a hate missing thing, its more of a you will always miss when you need to land type of thing. To me it really doesnt matter if Combusken runs physical or special, there are plenty of counters in the tier for each of the sets and based on who your opponet sends in Combusken against, its not too hard to figure what set it might be. (You have Regirock, opponet sends in Combusken, its probably a special Combusken).
  2. Baguette Syndrome

    Baguette Syndrome

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
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    [​IMG]
    Oricorio-Sensu: A- -> A

    Oricorio-Sensu is nothing short of fantastic. There's a grand total of one pokemon in PU that resists to its dual typing, meaning that it's nearly impossible to switch into Sensu, and even then you run of the risk of losing momentum if they're running U-Turn. Sensu really appreciates Guzzlord rising, as it was one of the few things that can directly switch in and take it on without losing much. Its typing also gives it three handy immunities, letting it fit onto most teams quite nicely. It can even beat most of its checks with its Sub Calm Mind set, particularly Skuntank, being able to nullify Sucker Punch and OHKO it in return with a Supersonic Skystrike. At the same time, this set can allow Sensu to set up on Toxic Spike users, another thing that's popular in the current meta, as Sludge Bombs and Scalds from the three prominent users won't break Sensu's Substitutes, especially after a Calm Mind boost. It also puts immense pressure on Lilligant, as it can't freely set up without running the risk of getting out-sped and reverse 6-0'd.

    [​IMG]
    Aggron: B -> B+

    Much like Oricorio-Sensu, Aggron has so many good match-ups versus offensive and defensive teams alike. With a base 150 STAB move with no drawbacks besides accuracy, its Choice Band set will almost always pick up a free KO on anything it forces out. Defensive teams in particular hate this thing, because it carries a combination of Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Superpower or Earthquake to handle resists to its dual stab, and Weezing/Sableye can't directly switch in. What most people don't consider is that a Jolly nature is optional, as most bulky pokes only invest just enough to outspeed Adamant Aggron, being at 200. It still has the strength to 2HKO Physdef Weezing and Qwilfish, 2HKO Gurdurr after rocks, and OHKO Hitmonchan. However, it's plagued with a typing that gives it a nasty 4x weakness to Ground and Fighting, the ladder in which dominates the current meta, and it requires a bit of team support versus speedy offensive threats because of its mediocre speed tier. For those reasons, I don't think it should be placed any higher than B+. At the very least, it appreciates Hariyama not coming back.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  3. Lakeredman

    Lakeredman

    Joined:
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    [​IMG] Nominating Drampa for B+
    Now that Guzzlord has risen to NU, Drampa is now one of the premier special wallbreakers in the tier, being able to demolish even the bulkiest of Pokemon. Drampa has access to wide variety of useful coverage, ranging from Fire Blast to Thunderbolt to Hurricane, allowing it to take on a wide variety of Pokemon. This great coverage can be put to good use with the Choice Specs set, which can deal heavy damage to even the bulkiest walls. For example:

    Calcs: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 256-303 (65.4-77.4) -- Guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon 424-499 (99.5-117.1) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Regirock 358-423 (98.6-116.5) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    Drama can also fit onto a variety of playstyles, including Balance, Bulky Offense, Offense, and Trick Room. Trick Room in particular turns Drampa into a terrifying wallbreaker, since it will "outspeed" every relevant non-Trick Room threat while hitting extremely hard. Bulky Offense is another great play style for Drampa, as it can utilize Calm Mind to break through many different Pokemon, while also being able to capitalize on certain special walls, such as Regirock[​IMG] . Drampa also has a great match-up against Lilligant if Sap Sipper is being used, as Drampa can sponge Giga Drains/Energy Balls and OHKO back. Drampa can also survive Lilligant's Breakneck Blitz after Stealth Rock damage. Drampa also has a great offensive typing, as Steel and Fairy are a somewhat rare typing, and Dragon-type STAB is a deadly weapon against a lot of different Pokemon, especially those lacking in Special Defense.

    Overall, for the reasons listed above, I feel that Drampa is deserving of a move to B+.

    (By the way, credit to GenZeon for proofreading and general help and jklioe for helping to polish and generally strengthen the nomination)
    (Damn, 22 likes. Thanks guys!)
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
    Ares, Samsuro, Good J and 20 others like this.
  4. Good J

    Good J

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    A mon that i think is ranked far to high is Lurantis.
    [​IMG]
    Lurantis is currently ranked a solid B in the viability rankings, that really surprises me considering how many problems the tier brings for this mon as a defogger or offensive presence in general. Lurantis is weak to Skunktank the primary defogger in the tier, which obviously isnt good. Skunktank is used on so many competitive teams in the tier and lurantis being weak to it, which puts you the trainer at a disadvantage. Lurantis also gets crippled by skunks stab poison jab and/or sludge bomb making skunk a threat to it. Skunk also does better against top tier pokemon such as Mesprit and mush that would be dominant in the tier without it, Lurantis on the other hand does good against Carracoasta and Lanturn, but the opponet would have no reason to match their Carracoasta or Lanturn against it anyway(in other words if that happens, swap out). Skunktank is unaffected by Mesprit and mush's stab moves making it ok to swap in on those mons and pursuit them the next turn for devastating damage.

    Lurantis also suffers from sap sipper which can completely shut down its main source of usage, leaf storm. Miltank, Bouffalant and Drampa are just some of the bulky mons that can stop lurantis in its tracks, considering Miltank can and usually is a rocker, it gets easy setup on a defogger that basically cant touch it, along with Miltank being able to toxic Lurantis and what not. Lurantis also suffers from its horrible base 45 speed, not even being able to sweep teams with its contrary boost. Lurantis is easily revenge killed basically any mon in the tier because of its speed as i stated before, to give an example max speed Aggron can come in and use head smash to finish it off which is pretty bad. Lurantis problems still don't end there as it being grass type makes it weak to common types in the tier such as poison, ice and fire ( its also weak to bug and flying, but those aren't as common ). Unlike skunk, Lurantis isnt switching in on anything because of its typing, it gets bodied by mons its suppose to be a threat against, such as Floatzel and Rampardos ( 252 Atk Life Orb Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Lurantis: 151-179 (44 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) ( 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 180+ Def Lurantis: 207-243 (60.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery ). And to top it all off Lurantis move pool is so bad it makes Liligant look good. Lurantis literally has just hp fire/ice or leafstorm is utilize as a special threat, thats it not even joking (hyper beam would be a horrible option on this mon despite it being z hyper beam or not ). Archaeops being in the tier makes this thing even more useless, thought id just add that.

    Lurantis drops from B to C-
  5. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    I absolutely agree that Lurantis has atrocious Speed and a dirt poor movepool and bad defensive typing. It might even stand to drop to B-, I'd be pretty neutral on that. But nothing in your nomination acknowledges any usefulness it has, and completely ignoring its merits is the only reason whatsoever that it would go to C- amongst Pokemon most people would consider to be far worse in the current metagame like Relicanth. The same basically holds true for Combusken by the way, I can't justify dropping it so low unless I decide to ignore any positive aspects to using the Pokemon. There's a reason that you normally don't nominate a Pokemon to change more than 1-2 subranks, any larger of a change would have to happen only if general opinion on it changes significantly in a very short period of time. This isn't a shift in how we see Lurantis, this is just straight up ignoring any positive aspects to it or opposition to your nomination, something that I highly recommend you don't do because of how bad it makes the nomination (it even says in the first post not to do this). If you'd like Lurantis to drop please try to provide a more objective evaluation of its place in the metagame and acknowledge the uses it has.
    But also for the record, if you've played a Lurantis vs. Sap Sipper matchup I think it'd be clear that Lurantis is not totally dead weight, it still has uses as a defensive defogger. That's also your only reasoning for why Contrary Leaf Storm isn't great, when in practice I think you'd find that it becomes an incredibly potent wallbreaker, especially with the absence of Guzzlord and more and more Skuntank failing to run Poison Jab nowadays. Its Speed and movepool are trash for sure, but that's just a general fact Lurantis and is in no way a reason for it to drop- Gurdurr is an A+ mon that fits both of those categories. Finally, LO Ice Punch Floatzel and LO SF Rampardos are fairly irrelevant in the current metagame. In general giving examples of Pokemon/sets that are good and common can help give context but examples like those don't really do anything useful.
  6. Good J

    Good J

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    Before i reply thank you for reading my post, i appreciate it, relicath shouldn't even be at C- as it is, but thats beside the point. The reason i dont acknowledge anything positive about Lurantis, is because it barely does anything good. Leaf storm + contrary could be great for wall breaking, but after it kills or if it kills something, it itself will easily get revenge killed by pretty much anything as i stated before. The main use of Lurantis is as a defogger so losing it so early could cost you the game itself. Lurantis is far too unreliable and not to mention its main niche in leaf storm + contrary still has a chance to miss ( true story, has happened to me many times ). I earlier mentioned Floatzel and Rampardos for the reason that if such irrelevant mons in the tier can destroy it, maybe it shouldnt be ranked that high. On top of all this, better defoggers that fit this tier better exist, there is next to no reason to use Lurantis as a defogger. Togetic who struggles as a defogger has some useful moves such as heal bell, t wave or wish. Lurantis on the other hand has a basic moveset and is predictable as day. Lurantis is also really bad as an offensive mon, even as a scarfer at max speed it hits 310 which isnt very fast. Liligant out classes Lurantis as an grass offensive presence and Skunktank, Hitmonchan and Swanna are just much better choices as defoggers, other than the obvious Leaf storm + contrary, Lurantis has nothing good about it.
  7. jklioe

    jklioe

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    i find this paragraph quite... contradictory to say the least. you talk about how lurantis pressuring carracosta and lanturn doesn't matter because they can switch out anyways, and yet seem to emphasize heavily how skuntank pressures it as a reason why it's not good. other than that, talking about how badly a defogger matches up with a defogger is kind of silly since what's generally more important for a defogger is how it matches up vs hazard users, so something like weezing would have been a better example.

    the issue with this statement is that this can apply to a lot of the prominent faces in the vr, such as magmortar or jynx, who also have "irrelevant mons" in the tier that take it on well like grumpig and metang. those mons can destroy or wall them in the same way your examples can in lurantis' case. the reason why that doesn't hold much as much weight as it would under normal circumstances is specifically because of their irrelevancy.

    in any case, i still don't think you've sufficiently explained why lurantis should drop, but if i could be of any help, perhaps i should chime in:

    lurantis' niche is that of a defogger who can come in reliably on rockers such as defensive qwilfish, ferro, regirock, carracosta, torterra, and click defog or leaf storm. thanks to its bulk and access to utility options like aromatherapy, it can actually pressure balance/slower teams really well as it racks up boosts. not many of their members can ko it without a lot of prior damage, and many others are passive, and that's what makes it an effective wallbreaker vs those types of teams.

    vs faster/more offensive teams, its speed and lack of a good movepool does become more of a hinderance, and pokemon that have been sparking up in usage such as magmortar, oricorio-sensi, drampa, and abomasnow either heavily pressure it or just full advantage of it, whereas the other spinners/defoggers can at least pressure those types of pokemon better and have generally more role compression that lets them fit in more teams.

    for these reasons, i can get behind dropping lurantis to b- at worst, but nothing lower as i think it has a more effective niche than anything lower.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  8. Good J

    Good J

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    Really good post, but beside that, you said my statement contradicted itself, it didnt i just might have explained it poorly. What im saying is that Lurantis does well against Carracoast and Lanturn, but whats to stop Lanturn or Carracoasta from swapping out? nothing, Skunktank can hit Mesprit and other psychic threats with stab pursuit and make his presence known. The reason i mention Skunktank matching up against Lurantis so much is because Skunktank is by far top five most common mons in the tier, meaning your gonna run into it alot. Nowadays its not too rare to find a sap sipper counter which is normally for Liligant, but also we have plenty mons that kill this as i stated before. You made a really good point about matching the defogger with the rockers, rather than the defogger with another defogger, thank you for reading my post, i still got some stuff to work on.
    jklioe likes this.
  9. INSANE CARZY GUY

    INSANE CARZY GUY

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    Here's my question for a defogger, if I switch into a hazard setter do I have the power to remove them, keep them off or force them out/get a kill

    Not being weak to rocks and beating rock mons and having hp fire to knock back ferr or sticky web setters is pretty nice

    I mean
    Defog
    Leaf storm
    Hp fire
    Toxic

    Is solid enough to do just about all it needs cause other than t-spikes setters I can't think of anything that wants to take any of those hits

    Its not great but it has a very clear niche it can do
    Good J likes this.
  10. Lakeredman

    Lakeredman

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    I personally have to agree with Zard on this one, especially because, as Zard stated, you didn't cover any of the advantages of using Lurantis. For example, Lurantis can beat Regirock, something that Skuntank can't do (as far as I know). I can agree with a drop to, say, B-, but Lurantis still has a niche that makes viable, and therefore should be ranked as such. Overall, while I can plausibly see Lurantis dropping to B-, I feel that saying it is C material without looking at any of its positive traits just isn't right.

    (Note: This post is just me giving my honest opinion, and is not meant to show any disrespect to GoodJ. Also, sorry if I accidentally rehashed some of what you said, Zard.
    Good J likes this.
  11. HJAD

    HJAD
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

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    Combusken
    [​IMG]


    C+ ===> B / B+

    Hi, I just wanna make a post around one of my favourite Pokemon in SM PU. I feel like based on its current rank in comparison to its threat level doesn't really compare appropriately which is why im making this nomination. I wanted to pick this post and and clear some common misconceptions around Combusken which people may or may not have picked up. The first thing is that Combusken is completely different as a Pokemon compared to Magmortar. GenZeon touched on this, but Combusken literally functions as a cleaner / offense beater. It's unlike Magmortar since it gets Speed Boost, a super useful ability that allows it to steam roll even vs teams that have speed control, which is part of the reason of why this thing is so threatening. You can use a mixture of offensive pressure from its dual STAB and protect to force switches to eventually get enough speed to outspeed the majority of the meta, which it does at +3, outspeed the entire relevant Scarf Meta from Mesprit to Jynx or Primeape. Speed Boost is undoubtedly a niche that it gets over Magmortar, so reducing Combusken to "its weaker so Magmortar is better under every circumstance" is quite reductionist and really ignores why Combusken gets usage in the first place.

    set (open)


    Combusken @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Speed Boost
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Protect


    In my opinion, this is currently the best Combusken set. Yes, Fire Blast + Focus Blast is prone to being inconsistent, but this is why we can run Fightinium Z to supliment that. You mentioned how Swanna / Oricorio can use Flyinium Z; why can't that same logic be applied to a Combusken? Fighting STAB for Combusken is a boon for Combusken and allows for a relevant power boost.
    252+ SpA Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 266-314 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Regirock: 230-272 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    This kind of calc is quite relevant, especially since a there is a lack of mons that take on Fire + Fighting Coverage. The Pokemon who do is exclusively Swanna, which Combusken can outspeed at +2 and KO with Fire Blast + Hidden Power Electric. Fightinium obviously gives you a 1 time nuke, and allows for standard walls such as Gastrodon to be blown back; it obviously also has that dual purpose of 100% accuracy for when you need a kill 100%. Practically speaking, Combusken is a more practical version vs most archetypes than Magmortar. Its obviously not as profficient as breaking, and unlike Magmortar, it cant afford to use a bulkier set and hard switch on the likes of Weezing, which is why I don't think Combusken should go in a similar rank, but what it has is more than niche in terms of its ability to bone over offense as well as retaining some of that breaking potential.

    I emplore people who have dismissed this Pokemon to use it, its very good in practice, and suits SM like a glove. As we all know, SM is predominantly an offense based Generation, thanks to the new Z-Move mechanics. To be honest, I can't think of a better Pokemon that abuses the brand new Z-Move mechanic as well as the meta that the Z-Move mechanic creates.
  12. Lakeredman

    Lakeredman

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    After my success with nominating Drampa, I want to give another go at nominating a mon.

    Nominating Pyroar for A
    Pyroar is a powerful and fast threat right now, which is supplemented by the generally offensivly-oriented metagame. Pyroar has great spammable STAB moves in Hyper Voice and Fire Blast, which hits a lot of the tier for neutral damage, including the omnipresent Skuntank. Pyroar also has a blistering 106 base speed, which allows it to outpace and K.O important threats such as the aforementioned Skuntank and Choice Band Stoutland. Pyroar can also take advantage of its high speed by using Taunt/Will-O-Wisp to cripple opposing Pokemon, which can be especially helpful for getting a teammate onto the field for free. Pyroar can also check Lilligant, one of the most prominent threats in the tier at the moment.

    (Sorry if the nomination was a bit brief, Ruby has agreed to elaborate further by posting their own thoughts on Pyroar)
  13. Rwby

    Rwby

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    Pyroar to A: Agree fully

    [​IMG]
    Fully agree with this nomination. Fire type resists are basically non existent in the current meta due to coverage such as Hidden Power Grass and Hyper Voice being able to hit almost every resist to its Fire STAB for at least neutral. It has basically no switch in currently that isn't something like Munchlax or Type:Null, meaning that more offensive teams struggle to check this mon without doubling or revenge killing it. With an really solid speed tier, just lying below 110, Pyroar is able to outspeed most of the relevant threats in the meta that aren't Choice Scarfed, which is pretty huge when Pyroar has almost unresisted STAB. It's also able to run several different sets to varying degrees of success with Choice Specs being first and foremost, with the ability to 2hko most the tier, Taunt Stallbreaker allowing it to force its way past slower teams and Choice Scarf being a good revenge killer capable of beating things like +1 Jynx and Lilligant. I think it's extremely underrated at the moment and needs more recognition. Not much more to say about it to be honest. Even things like AV Lant are 3hko'd and Miltank are 2hko'd by Hyper Voice.
  14. Good J

    Good J

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    Alright back at it again, but this time instead of focusing on the negative, lets focus on a more positive post.
    [​IMG]
    Ludicolo is a mon in the tier that made rain the threat it is today. Ludicolo as we know is huge to deal with in rain and has access to 4 moves that hit basically everything in the tier, focus blast (you guys know how i am about accuracy though), hydro pump, giga drain and ice beam. My favorite set for Ludicolo is waterium z, because it does massive damage and allows you to one shot bulkier threats that could cripple you with t wave or toxic like Clefairy. Something that people dont mention is the lack of ludicolo counters in the tier. Usually Lanturn and Gastro are pokemon that counter water types, but with Ludicolo's duel grass type it sends mons like Gastro and Lanturn running away. Cradily, Regice and Clefairy are some pretty good counters to Ludicolo, but with those mons being silent or in other words irrelevant to the meta game (Clefairy is used the most, but still isnt that relevant), Ludicolo destroys freely. Something else people overlook is Ludicolo being able to set its own rain under the correct circumstances, such as forcing your opponet to swap out when they have the type disadvantage (Gastro is in, forced to swap by Ludicolo, Ludicolo then takes that turn to set up rain). Below are the ludicolo sets ive tried, and if your feeling edgy try the last one.

    I nominate Ludicolo from B+ to A- mainly because there arent many relevant counters in the tier and this thing cant really be revenge killed in rain making it run through your team.


    Sets

    text (open)


    Ludicolo @ Waterium Z/ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Giga Drain
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast

    Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Giga Drain
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast/Rain dance

    Ludicolo @ Leftovers
    Ability: Rain Dish
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Leech Seed
    - Giga Drain
    - Protect/Substitute
    - Substitute/Toxic/Ice beam




    Calcs


    text (open)


    252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy in Rain: 244-288 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 234-276 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Ludicolo All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 234-276 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 148-176 (50.6 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 200-237 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

  15. Cofaiclus

    Cofaiclus

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    Swoobat C- -> C+ or B-

    Ok so. Whenever I play in the PU tier (Which is most of the time) I sometimes see a Swoobat on peoples team. And whenever I play those people that have a Swoobat they always use the same strategy. The Swoobat's that they used always hold an Electric Seed With Calm Mind and a Variety of Special attacking moves. And that strategy has been used most of the time then the Smogon Pokedex Strategy Which is Salac berry with the same Calm Mind but this time with Substitute, Stored Power and Signal Beam / Heat Wave. And the amount of PU Pokemon that can learn Electric Terrain are 12 (Counting LC and NFE Pokemon) and one of those Pokemon being Alolan Raichu Who is in the A- Tier and has great speed. So Basically you can send out Alolan Raichu First to set up Electric Terrain and use Volt Switch (if Nessasery) and then you get out Swoobat so it will activate the Electic Seed And then use 1 calm mind and it could kill most of the opposing team and maybe all of the team because what I forgot to mention was Simple. Because with Simple Swoobat can be a possible sweeper Because it can be a Bulky Wall, A Special Wall And a Special Sweeper
  16. Dibs The Dreamer

    Dibs The Dreamer

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Messages:
    227
    [​IMG]
    Lycanroc-Midday: from B+ to A-
    The meta has been favouring more offensive builds, and Lycanroc offers teams amazing anti-offense tools. 112 speed is an amazing speed tier, only beaten by Floatzel and scarfers, and it has access to stab accelrock to help it pick off these threats once chipped. This speed combined with 115 base attack and access to swords dance makes it very potent as a late game cleaner, especially with z-moves helping it to smash through walls (rockinium for Gourgeist-Super and fightinium for Ferroseed). Although Lycanroc struggles against the common fighting types in Gurdurr and scarf Primeape, these mons are easily exploitable with potential partners such as rocky helmet Weezing and Qwilfish, which still have a strong presence in the meta.

    As for other stuff that's been nominated:
    [​IMG]
    Gastrodon from B+ to A-: agree
    Gastrodon is a ridiculously reliable blanket check due to its great defensive typing and reliable recovery. Although PUPL has demonstrated that Gastrodons role can be predictable and exploitable by strong breakers, the list of relevant threats it checks is too big to ignore and thus still warrants the rise.
    [​IMG]
    Drampa from B- to B+: agree
    I think we all learned that this mon is ridiculous very quickly. The choice specs set has no guaranteed switch ins, like at all, and it has enough coverage in fire blast and focus blast with its dual stab to almost always guarantee a free kill when given a free turn. Since Guzzlord is gone I could easily see this overtaking Exeggutor-Alola as the main dragon type of the tier just because of the higher special attack being crucial for calcs vs pokemon such as Clefairy.
    [​IMG]
    Combusken up: agree, but likely to B- first
    Combusken also takes advantage of the heavy offense meta, although it demands more prep to be consistent. Archeops dropping has made the tier become faster, putting more pressure on the Combusken player to get at least +2 speed safely. Despite this, the dual stab is ridiculously hard to cope with when back with fightinium z to nuke bulky waters. Overall the mon has been a solid meta call for the most of beta and post beta, but recent trends demands a small jump rather than a big jump.
    [​IMG]
    Swoobat up to anywhere: disagree
    This is from personal experience. Swoobat has been given more options with terrain seeds opening up a new window, but in my opinion it's still not enough. First of all, these strategies are ridiculously niche and demand a lot of set up and support to execute for minimal reward. Even when executed it's still ridiculously squishy, and requires multiple calm minds to start having a powerful stored power. This is especially hard when the tier is stacked with powerful breakers to prevent it from getting free set up for free, and they don't have to fear a stored power since Swoobat is so weak. Also dark types basically run the tier, and sets like banded Skuntank give Swoobat major issues even at +2 def. Basically, terrain seeds gave it more niche options to let it be C- and not D, but will basically never be justifiable to rise.

    e: im fixing the sprites when im home, these look gross
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
    Ares, Cheryl., Good J and 10 others like this.
  17. Megazard

    Megazard Practically Useless
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Got another update for you guys- this only goes up to the Pyroar nom though, so we'll be leaving Ludicolo/Swoobat/Lycanroc for next time.

    Weezing A+ to A
    Hitmonchan A- to A
    Pyroar A- to A
    Oricorio-Sensu A- to A
    Gastrodon B+ to A-
    Drampa B- to B+
    Palossand B- to B+
    Throh B to B+
    Aggron B to B+
    Eelektross C+ to B
    Lurantis B to B-
    Combusken C+ to B-
    Huntail C- to C
    Lumineon C to C-
    Eevee UR to D
    Trevenant UR to D
    Sawsbuck UR to C-
    Bellossom D to UR

    The only mon I think needs extra reasoning is Weezing, since it's the biggest change and one which didn't see much discussion. While I can't speak to everybody on the council's reasoning, Weezing has just kind of suffered as a product of the metagame. Qwilfish has gotten a lot more usage and is almost always in direct competition with Weezing, plus it gets Spikes which are arguably better than Tspikes right now given that people are really prepping for them. We've got other Fighting-type checks like Palossand and Oricorio-Sensu and Gastrodon on the rise, and Weezing isn't quite the instant go-to Fighting check that it was a month or two ago. It's far from bad, but with Tspikes and its ability to check Fighting-types not quite in such ridiculously high demand, plus its inability to absorb Tspikes as a Poison-type, it isn't quite as dominant anymore.

    The discussion's all been great here so no discussion points yet, but you can feel more free to go into the lower ranks at this point (even though we ended up doing plenty with them anyway)
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  18. Specs Jigglypuff

    Specs Jigglypuff

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    50
    [​IMG] Bronzor C - C+

    This thing is just hard to kill once fire types are gone. From my experience and from facing it, it is a great reliable rocker that can do a crazy amount of damage with Psywave. It does struggle with Skun being on a lot of teams but I think it deserves to be moved up a bit. Especially considering normals are becoming a lot better with all these fighting types leaving the tier. It checks a lot of mons on the common spike stack builds, not to mention it beats non taunt Qwilfish. Guzz moving up to NU also helps this thing a lot.

    Some calcs to show what i mean:

    252+ Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 70-83 (22 - 26.1%) -- 79.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Lycanroc Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 90-106 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

    252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 115-136 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 Atk Qwilfish Hydro Vortex (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 144-169 (45.2 - 53.1%) -- 29.3% chance to 2HKO
  19. Lakeredman

    Lakeredman

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
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    Nominating Type: Null For A-
    With the departure of Guzzlord, Type: Null is now one of the best special walls in the tier. With a whopping 475 SpD stat (after max investment and Eviolite), Type: Null can stomach a large variety of strong special attacks, allowing it to blanket check a huge portion of the tier.

    252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 154-182 (39-46.1%) Guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 114-135
    (28.9-34.2%) -- 2.8% Chance to 3HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 196-232 (49.7-58.8%) -- 99.6% Chance to 2HKO

    Type: Null also makes effective use of the RestTalk combo, something that only a few Pokemon in PU are capable of using properly. This, combined with Type: Null's access to Swords Dance and STAB return, allows Type: Null to become a solid win condition and plow through the opposition with ease. In particular, special attackers lacking Calm Mind or Nasty Plot make great set up bait. Type: Null doesn't even have to fear Jynx, as Type: Null can simply use Sleep Talk to (with a bit of luck) hit Jynx hard. Type: Null also has great synergy with a variety of playstyles, especially Bulky Offense. Bulky Offense appreciates Type: Null's ability to check a large array of specail attackers while still maintaining a very good offensive presence. Finally, Type: Null has great synergy with a very popular Pokemon, such as Qwilfish. Qwilfish appreciates Type: Null eating almost all special attacks with ease, while Qwilfish can handle physical attackers and set up Toxic Spikes to aid Type: Null in setting up and sweeping.

    Useful Notes: Not nomming Type: Null higher due to Fighting-types presence, difficulty beating physical attackers, and being a momentum drain. Also, thanks to Ruby Matoi for supporting my decision to make this nomination.
  20. Rwby

    Rwby

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
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    I haven't really had the time to make a proper VR post, but I will do soon... However I came here for one thing.

    Type:Null to A- Agree

    Seriously, this thing is incredible at the moment. One of the best special walls we have available thanks to great defensive stats coupled with Eviolite along with Rest Talk make it very hard to take down especially from the special side, checking big meta game threats such as Magmortar, Pyroar, Jynx and Lilligant is huge for one mon to do. It also acts as a really solid win condition once Ghost- and Steel-types have been eliminated, thanks to Swords Dance couple with Return and decent attack, punishing teams that don't prep to break it. I always seem to have it in the back of my mind when prepping teams, just because I have insta-lost to it in the past with teams that were perfectly viable. It does have solid stops such as almost every Ghost-type but that doesn't stop it being basically the best at what it does.

    Very underrated mon and people need to use it more!

    Drampa to B+ Agree, actually I'll do you one better, Drampa to A-

    This thing has basically zero defensive switchins thanks to perfect coverage, blistering high attack and strong BP moves such as Focus Blast, Draco Meteor, Hyper Voice and Fire Blast. I hate facing this thing because the only real way to pressure it is offensively, which is fine if you're running that archetype but not Gucci if you're running a more balanced-based archetype. It basically forces a 50/50 every time you play against it and whenever I've used it, it hasn't failed me. I really don't know why more people aren't using this. It also acts as either a soft grass resist to things like Lilligant with Sap Sipper, or and insane wall breaker with Beserk. Choice Specs is the best set btw.
  21. ChrystalFalchion

    ChrystalFalchion
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Seonding Drampa to A-. In addition to the reasons Rwby listed, it also has decent bulk and nice defensive typing, giving it useful Fire, Water, Grass and Electric type resistances and a Ghost immunity, letting it easily switch in on bulky Water and Grass types and wreck havoc. I agree that Specs is its best set, but I've also ran a Calm Mind set and a Roost + 3 attacks Life Orb set with good results as well. While Drampa's not as bulky as Musharna, it hits much harder, and has a more consistent recovery option in Roost.

    If you care, here are the Calm Mind and Roost + 3 attacks set I tried

    Show Hide


    Drampa @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sap Sipper / Berserk
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Flamethrower / Fire Blast
    - Roost

    Speed EVs let you outrun uninvested Gurdurr, Dragon Pulse is a solid STAB, Fire move hits the Steel types that resist it hard. Roost keeps you healthy. Sap Sipper lets you set up on non Hyper Beam Lilligant, while Berserk gives Drampa more power once it falls below 50%. With Roost, you can activate Berserk often. Wait until the opponent's Fighting and Fairy-types are down before trying to sweep.

    Drampa @ Life Orb
    Ability: Berserk
    EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 12 SpD / 116 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hyper Voice
    - Fire Blast / Focus Blast
    - Roost

    Fire off strong attacks, heal when you get the chance, keep firing off strong attacks. While this set isn't quite as strong as the Specs set, it's more sustainable and has the freedom to switch moves. Draco Meteor is the strongest STAB; Hyper Voice is a safe one to spam if you're not sure what's coming in. Fire Blast hits the Steel-types that resist your STABs hard - Focus Blast does the same, but OHKOes Probopass and Type:Null after Hyper Voice. Roost heals off Life Orb recoil, letting you fire off powerful attacks for longer. Speed EVs let you outrun uninvested Audino and Regirock; Special Attack is maximised for power, 128 HP EVs hit a Life Orb number, and the rest is placed in Special Defence for a little more bulk. If you don't care about bulk, 188 Speed EVs let you outrun uninvested Type:Null.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 3:00 AM
  22. jklioe

    jklioe

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
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    31
    [​IMG] B+ ----> A aight guys, hear me out on this one. as someone who for the longest time have vouched for how much an amazing underdog drampa is, it's finally about time that i chime in on this one. i feel that a lot of drampa talk here and elsewhere has gotten to the point where we should settle on a final ranking for the time being, and this is more or less my attempt in trying to establish that. basically, i truly believe that drampa should be highlighted as one of the upper mons in the meta right now. this is largely because as a wallbreaker, it creates a massive teambuilding constraint on its own to the point where defensive teams or teams that carry defensive pokemon that lets it come in for free really have to play aggressive in a way that doesn't let it get in and claim an easy kill. as a result, it just eats slower teams up, and you really have to scout for it when you run the type of mons that would be used there. not only that, but there are a myriad of pokemon that it is able to take advantage of in the same way that can be run on even more balanced/offensive teams, such as qwilfish, lanturn, ferroseed, bulky mesprit, miltank, gastrodon, sableye, and weezing, and more often than not, it just claims a kill. it easily rips apart many balance cores, and has decent enough bulk and an ability that even lets it offensively check pokemon like special floatzel, pyroar, lilligant, and non-fb magmortar, and just effortlessly claim a kill from there. drampa is easily one of the most terrifying balance-breakers right now, with utterly flawless coverage in hyper voice / draco / fire blast / focus blast. i realize that by pushing for a rank this high i'd be comparing it to eggy-alola, but the reason i give drampa the nod is because of its less exploitable dual stab and its ability to take on the spdef normals like type: null and audino much more efficiently, making it a more prominent wallbreaker in the meta. that having been said, exeggutor is still a strong late-game cleaner with tr, but i just feel that drampa's advantages make it slightly more effective. therefore, A will be my proposal. drampa. is. ridiculous.

    [​IMG] B+ ----> A- agreed. lol, another low-key crazy mon. basically, type null influences teambuilding in the sense that players have to be quite meticulous with their ghost-types and mons that can be run to break through it. thanks to it being among the bulkiest pokemon in the tier (especially on the special side) and its ability to essentially function as a status absorber all in one, it basically walls and sets up on the majority of the tier (including 90% of special attackers and passive mons). even boosting special fighting-z mons like raichu and mr. mime run the risk of being scouted (and thus breaking through it will be a lot harder if they waster their z move), and if that wasn't already enough, as a bulky set up sweeper, it's not even passive enough to where things other than like a gurdurr can come in and really aggressively take advantage of it. one of the scariest win cons in the tier, and it's definitely a step above the things sitting in b+ right now.

    also, i think a case can be made for natu to get out of unranked. yeah, it still pretty niche and weird to use, but its got quite a few things going for it that makes it actually viable, namely its ability to take safely come in and block hazards from all of bulky mesprit, defensive carracosta, qwilfish, ferroseed, and miltank, which are some of the most common options right now for stealth rock/hazards. it's not even all that pursuit bait either, due to having access to options like slow u-turn and reflect (which it would use for this and to better deal with stuff like pilo or support by u-turning into something that can take advantage of the reflect turns) to reduce its damage output. between pohjis' stall team actually beating some good players, and teddeh crushing the ladder with a team using it, i think i've seen it put in enough work to where it can justify being ranked somewhere, on top of it having a relevant niche. c- or c (leaning towards the latter tbh, as i think its niche is better than the stuff in c-) seems fine.
    Cheryl., Teddeh, tenkai and 13 others like this.
  23. Lakeredman

    Lakeredman

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    Nominating Manetric For B-
    Manetric is one of the fastest pivots in the tier, with the only other faster Volt Switch users being Alolan Raichu, Zebstrika, and Electrode. Manetric has a higher special attack stat than those three mons, setting it apart from them. Manetric's movepool supplements its high Special attack, as it has access to several useful moves such as Overheat, Switcheroo, and Flamethrower. Switcheroo in particular gives Manetric a niche as a Choice Scarf, something that Manetric's competition doesn't have (in Electrode's case, it's already so fast that Choice Scarf is redundant). Finally, Manetric can also utilize a Choice Specs set to capitalize on its access to Fire-types coverage and relatively high special attack, although it does face from competition from Alolan Raichu. Overall, while Manetric is far from perfect, I feel that it has enough positive traits to warrant a rise. (I understand that this was pretty brief, but I didn't really have much to say, given the simplistic nature of Manetric.)
  24. GyroNutz

    GyroNutz

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2016
    Messages:
    6
    Wishiwashi: C --> C+

    It is clear that wishiwashi has some of the best stats in the PU tier. It has the single strongest special attack stat along with great bulk and a good defensive typing in pure water. Its mediocre HP is buffed up by its amazing 130/135 defences and max hp investment, which allows it to take some of the strongest neutral hits in the tier. Furthermore, hardly any mons switch in well to its strong specs boosted moves. A well played wishiwashi can destroy unprepared bulkier teams, and isn't a total deadweight against offense if given a switch in. Other special offensive water types (swanna, floatzel, maybe lanturn) hit like a paper dart compared to the monster that is Wishiwashi. A special mention goes to wishiwashi under tr, which has the same features as before, but its main liability (30 base speed) becomes a machine of destruction, allowing wishiwashi to throw off uncontested hydro pumps, obliterating offense.

    The main drawback to wishiwashi is its ability. It loses all the above perks upon reaching 25% health, becoming a sitting duck for set up mons. However, it is worth mentioning that this happens after the turn, so as long as wishiwashi can survive the hit (which it nearly always can), it will fire back with twofold the damage.

    Few calcs to show defensive power:
    252+ Atk Hustle Raticate-Alola Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Wishiwashi: 231-273 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (is ohko'd back by hydro pump)
    252+ SpA Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Wishiwashi: 162-192 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (fire blast into t bolt doesn't even ohko. lol.)
    252 SpA Oricorio-Ghost Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Wishiwashi: 192-226 (65.3 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (most of the time, doesn't even bring it to solo forme)

    Few calcs to show offensive power:
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Wishiwashi Hidden Power Grass vs. 128 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 194-230 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (volt switch does around 35%)
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Wishiwashi Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 236-278 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (giga drain does around 38%, that and lefties isn't enough to live 2)
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 11:09 AM
  25. Taskr

    Taskr
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Hey I have some noms I wanna agree and disagree with.

    [​IMG] B+ > A-

    I'll start with this Pokemon which I Agree with, Type:Null is able to blanket check and beat a plethora of threats in PU due to it's insane bulk and can also serve as a nice win condition with Swords Dance after Ghost types are removed, which isn't too hard when it is paired with Pursuit Pokemon such as Skuntank. Toxic sets are also really nice to lure in the Ghost types for teammates like Primeape to sweep late game.

    [​IMG] B+ > A-

    I also Agree with this nom since now that Guzzlord has gone, Drampa faces less competition as a Specially Offensive Wallbreaker and it's great Special Attack combined with decent bulk often allows it to grab a kill in most games. Another good attribute it has in this meta is its ability to check Lilligant as well as some Electric and Fire types we have such as Lanturn and Pyroar meaning it has pretty good role compression.

    [​IMG] C+ > B-

    I Disagree with this rise, mainly because of its lackluster Speed tier compared to other Electric types such as Raichu-A or Zebstrika who are able to both outspeed Pyroar and in Zebstrika's case outspeed Archeops. Raichu-A and Zebstrika also offer other niches which Manectric can't such as being able to threaten Lanturn, check Fighting types and check Grass types respectively.

    Here are some of my own noms:

    [​IMG] B+ > A-

    Swanna is a really nice Defogger at the moment because it can easily come in on most Qwilifish and Defog away Spikes or threaten with Hurricane. Its coverage can be pretty hard to switch into for any teams lacking Lanturn and Z-Hurricane offers a cool nuke to a lot of Pokemon trying to blanket check it such as Ferroseed or Drampa.

    [​IMG] B- > B
    Golem serves as a cool lead rocker for Offensive as it is able to threaten most forms of hazard removal such as Hitmonchan, Skuntank and Swanna with its powerful Earthquake/Stone Edges. It can also beat a lot of opposing hazard setters such as Regirock, Carracosta and Qwilfish providing you don't get burnt by Scald. Golem can also give some great role compression similar to how it did in ORAS as it acts as a Normal/Flying check and a Electric check.

    [​IMG] C > C+
    Zebstrika has only got better in the rise of Archeops as it can reliably outspeed and check it compared to other Electric types like Manectric and Raichu-A who are either outsped or risk the speed tie.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017 at 8:43 PM

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