Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

[oversway]

nah still soul dew otherwise it doesn't even get a guaranteed ohko vs giratina which is pretty sad, and aside from that with soul dew it can still threaten the primals to an extent. lefties is def an option but that would make lati almost completely unviable imo because of the sheer lack of offensive pressure, which is fatal to a support mon with lati's defenses

 

[Karpi]

Personally I had to remove Latias from my team as its post-nerf stats are just too disappointing.

1. Arceus-Water with Judgment + Ice Beam --> Arceus-Fairy with Judgment + Defog

2. Yveltal to replace Latias

is the way I have replaced her while causing the least amount of harm to my team.

 

[mtr]

Yveltal is so strong right now that it basically makes a rock against Physical offense teams, as well as checking the new Lunala. I think it's better to make Special offense teams atm, at least until the dust clears.

 

[shrang]

PSA:

Solgaleo is supposed to be tank. Pretend the thing is like a Snorlax or something. Its role is a Xern/Fairy check first and foremost. Think of like Aegislash but this one can threaten its switch-ins and it has reliable recovery. If you really want to make it a sweeper that's fine but please don't make that the first thing you think of when you're using Solgaleo. Z-Splash is quite slow and easily stopped by Yveltal/Mega Gengar/a billion other mons and Flame Charge is such a piece of shit you should not bother. Sun lion's stats are not built to sweep.

 

[Vengeance417]

If you're gonna run a speedy Solgaleo, it might as well be an Adamant Scarf set because it can revenge-kill Naive Deoxys-Attack and below. Even then, I feel Lunala does this better thanks to Shadow Shield and Extreme Speed immunity.

 

[dice]

so, as a tank, it's a trappable aegislash without good a stab move that checks less and has worse support moves... ?

viable..

 

[mtr]

Between Solgaleo/Darkceus cores and Lunala, Stall has no shot in Gen 7.

I think Spikestacking Bulky Offense might have some merit, but Defog is strong, and hard to block, even without the Lati twins.

 

[Lady Gaga]

Between Solgaleo/Darkceus cores and Lunala, Stall has no shot in Gen 7.

I think Spikestacking Bulky Offense might have some merit, but Defog is strong, and hard to block, even without the Lati twins.

there's always a way to stall

 

[The Gunner]

Between Solgaleo/Darkceus cores and Lunala, Stall has no shot in Gen 7.

I think Spikestacking Bulky Offense might have some merit, but Defog is strong, and hard to block, even without the Lati twins.

 

[shrang]

so, as a tank, it's a trappable aegislash without good a stab move that checks less and has worse support moves... ?

viable..

Being trappable is pretty much the only valid critique here. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Sunsteel Strike is a more consistent STAB than Gyro Ball, while it the only things that Aegislash checks that Solgaleo doesn't are Lucario and the rarer Pheromosa. In terms of support moves, Solgaleo has pretty much everything Aegislash has sans King's Shield (which is nowhere near as spammable in Ubers as in OU) and then some, PLUS Solgaleo can actually threaten common switch-ins like Groudon and Ho-oh with EQ and Stone Edge, while the most Aegislash can do is Toxic (which Solgaleo can do anyway). Solgaleo even has semi-reliable recovery to boot. As for being trappable, Gengar can't actually OHKO a 0/252 Solgaleo with anyway without having to risk Hypnosis, at least until WoW becomes popular again.

It's a bit early to tell how good Solgaleo will be tbh, but I definitely think it's a waste attempting to turn this thing into the next big sweeper. Down with bs sets like Flame Charge + Z-Splash!

 

[dice]

it's not really early at all to tell: solgaleo is an amalgam of every of steel type that ends up not outshining any single one of them because it's so middling. its tank set lacks attributes that ferrothorn / jirachi / bronzong / aegislash / klefki would provide whether it be through support moves, efficacy, or compression. its defensive purpose is specialized and mediocre and it possesses terrible offensive options, too.

good thing gengar can't ohko ur even more specialized solgaleo spread.......

 

[shrang]

So you would rather use those "terrible offensive options" into a sweeper set? Forgive me if that's not what you meant, and if your job is to purely say Solgaleo is a crappy mon, I'm not going to disagree with that assessment. I do disagree however, if you're saying that he's better off being a sweeper. It would be a waste of a mon that's going to end up getting trapped or stopped that easily.

 

[Fireburn]

Why would you use Lati@s over Giratina-O? Seems like the only real advantages are Roost and Speed, which doesn't make up for Giratina-O's overall superior bulk and more useful Ghost-typing.

As for Solgaleo, I think reliable recovery, Speed, and superior coverage options make it worth using over Aegislash in a tank role. "Worse support moves" is a flawed claim: the only substantial support Aegislash has over Solgaleo is Pursuit, which it cannot fit over Shadow Ball if it wants to properly exercise the defensive niche it does boast over Solgaleo (beating Mega Lucario). Solgaleo is also less prone to giving stuff like Ho-Oh free turns due to wide auxiliary coverage and good Speed (given that Ho-Oh isn't overly bothered by Toxic thanks to Regenerator).

I also severely doubt that Solgaleo is blatantly worse than Klefki or Jirachi. Klefki is an awful role compressor these days due to the Prankster nerf against Dark-types and inability to beat Rest Xerneas - while Spikes are a big advantage and still make Klefki worth using, Klefki needs backup against most of the things is it supposed to beat which makes it not nearly as splashable as it used be, really only finding its way on Ho-Oh + Arceus-Dark balance teams. Jirachi's lack of Levitate and 4MSS between Wish + Protect + SR + U-turn + Iron Head + TWave or BSlam make it worse than Bronzong in my eyes.

Ferrothorn and Bronzong are legitimate competitors (as are Celesteela and Magerna to a somewhat lesser extent) due to wider defensive utility, but they lack Solgaleo's reliable healing and/or ability to ward off Fire-types with its combination of good Speed and coverage.

I also think Solgaleo's offensive ability is perhaps better than people give it credit for. Sure, it has kinda lame STAB types, but it gets a lot of coverage, some boosting options in Z-Splash and Work Up, and some interesting lure potential between Z-Crystals and type resist berries. The metagame is still quite young and there remains a lot of room for experimentation. Gen 7 is not even 2 weeks old, don't be afraid to just try stuff lol.

 

[thirdcry]

i agree solgaleo is very overrated. first of all we have to establish that solgaleo moveset is going to be sunsteel strike earthquake morning sun and filler. these three moves are required to fulfill his distinct niche of reliable xerneas check that primal groudon has to be wary of. filler can be stone edge to cover ho oh but now solgaleo is fodder for anything with recover ferrothorn primal kyogre and ekiller if it wants to. you can use a fire move to trade ho oh for ferrothorn on that list but its the same otherwise. the wild charge set you posted is interesting but as soon as the opponent sees leftovers they are going to be wary and your lack of bulk means you have to click morning sun when you switch into xerneas moonblast so that you stay at above 76 percent. this means primal groudon faster yveltal arceus ground lunala mega gengar come in for free and thats very bad. the last option is toxic since it lets you do at least something to just about everything except refresh mence and ferrothorn. it also lets you run real bulk and leftovers on your solgaleo so you dont spend whatever turn it gets just clicking morning sun which makes it the generally best option. unfortunately this set is directly comparable to toxic kings shield gyro ball shadow ball aegislash. since we all agree that aegislash sucks and solgaleo is demonstrably within the same realm of viability we are forced to conclude that solgaleo sucks.

 

[Hack]

That was the best forum post in idk how long goddamn I hope this guy isn't a konzern alt so he's not banned eventually

Although I'm disagreeing with the assumption part to an extent I might add

 

[mtr]

Remember that Jirachi has Healing Wish, which can be solid on offensive teams.

Skymin also has it.

 

[v-hash]

I still can't decide which Lunala to get - timid or modest. What are upsides and downsides of each one? And which one is more preferable for most players?

 

[Vengeance417]

I still can't decide which Lunala to get - timid or modest. What are upsides and downsides of each one? And which one is more preferable for most players?

Depends on the set. Scarf sets, for example, run Modest since Max speed at neutral nature outpaces Naive Deo-A, which is all it really needs to outpace, in all honesty.

For other sets, it depends on whether you want more power or to be able to tie with opposing Lunala/Solgaleo and outpace positive 95's and below.

 

[Melle2402]

I have no idea where i can ask, so I do it here.

My opponent had an banded Yveltal and used Knock Off against my Arceus-Ground (with Earh-Plate).
The calc says:
252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Yveltal Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 199-235 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO
But in the battle following happened:
The opposing Yveltal used Knock Off!
Arceus lost 79.2% of its health!
I checked my EVs but I'm 252 HP. Anyone knows why it does so much damage?

Here the replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankubers-490963799

It already happened twice today

 

[squinn]

it's a known bug
knock off deals 97.5 dmg without the target having an item to knock away. no idea why it's still not fixed

 

[kilometerman]

so now that the latis are nerfed beyond recogniton, what do we have in terms of offensive hazard support?

I mean I know there's plenty of viable defoggers like waterceus and giratina, but those are all mostly passive and can't really do much other than support. Im talking about something equivalent to the latis that can defog and also have significant offensive prescence.

Is there anything that can fill this role well? or are bulky offense teans dead this gen?

 

[Vengeance417]

so now that the latis are nerfed beyond recogniton, what do we have in terms of offensive hazard support?

I mean I know there's plenty of viable defoggers like waterceus and giratina, but those are all mostly passive and can't really do much other than support. Im talking about something equivalent to the latis that can defog and also have significant offensive prescence.

Is there anything that can fill this role well? or are bulky offense teans dead this gen?

I mean, Giratina-O isn't passive. It might not be as strong as the 6th gen Soul Dew Latis or as durable, but it can at least hit things relatively hard with Draco and can Hex status'd mons. In terms of offensive Defoggers, Gira-O's probably the best one atm. It also has the bonus of not being trapped by Mega Gengar.

Other than that, there's really not much else for Defoggers. You could run an offensive spread for a Defog Arceus form, but after that, there's slim pickings such as Defog Mega Mence which would rather just run DD sets. If you wanted to try spinning, there's both lead Mold Breaker Excadrill and its Sand Rush brother when paired with T-Tar, as well as lead Cloyster.

Yeah, hazard removal is in a tight spot in SuMo :/

 

[MajoraInAFedora]

Mega Salamemce has access to defog, but unfortunately it takes up a Mega Slot.

Edit: Greninjad by mere seconds

 

[Zaionar]

Another offensive hazard remover is Pheromosa, which provides Rapid Spin.

Apart from that you will have opt for the aforementioned more defensively inclined Defoggers like Defogceus.

 

[oversway]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if hazard control becomes much less common on offense and BO due to the difficulty in fitting reliable defoggers that provide offensive pressure on a team and the Prankster nerf making spikestack less common