Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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I would like to throw my ticket in support of Arceus-Poison to be bumped up to B or B+. I see it's place in the meta, not as a defensive check to Fighting types, but rather as a strong physical sweeper. With psychic types such as Tapu Lele, Mewtwo, and Bronzong being pushed down due to the presence of Marshadow, it's opened a window for Arceus-Poison. While it is still very much threatened by common mons such as Arceus-Ground, Groudon, Zygarde, Celesteela, and Deoxys-A, it's ability to soak up toxic, threaten Xerneas, and potentially sweep shouldn't go underappreciated.
 
Deoxys-A from A -> A-

As much as I love this thing, I feel like putting it in A alongside balance staples like Ho-Oh and Primal Kyogre doesn't accurately reflect its viability atm. Traditionally, Deoxys-A has been a Pokemon that fits on offensive and occasionally bulky offensive teams that have the room to use up a teamslot on a Pokemon that, despite being ridiculoulsly powerful, offers zero defensive utility for obvious reasons. The introduction of Marshadow has shifted the metagame to be more favourable to balance and stall builds. As a result, Deoxys-A finds less opportunities to be used on teams because these types of builds generally cannot afford to rely on a Pokemon that is only useful for its offensive synergy. The Psychic-type spam teams that Deoxys-A used to thrive on, and to a slightly lesser extent hyper offense teams in general are torn to shreds by Marshadow. While I don't doubt that offensive teams will find ways to adapt to the Marshadow meta and become more popular (in fact, many already have through the use of Pokemon such as Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy), the fact that they now have to come up with a way to check Marshadow as well means that Deoxys-A is becoming more and more difficult to splash onto teams. Drop to A-.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Been starting to play more post-Marshadow and have some thoughts to share:

A -> A+ (between Yveltal and Mega Mence)
This single threat has literally warped the metagame around it ever since its release, and this is evident through how much it has impacted the viability of certain team archetypes and influences what compositions of threats they choose to run. For example, the pre-Marsh meta had been pretty dominated by various HO builds due to them being effective in winning the hazard war and ultimately sweeping with either DoubleDance Pdon, Power Herb Xern, or DD Mega Salamence / SD Mega Lucario. However, due to Marshadow's introduction, the overall viability of these teams have strictly diminished and have forced options such as Scarf Yveltal and Z-Geomancy Xern to be run in order to acquire an actual check that can switchin and force it out. I have heard a lot of criticism upon Marshadow's incapability to break through stall, however Bulk Up sets with SSSS provides it enough power to blow back most checks after one boost, making these teams needing to fall back on threats like defensive Toxapex and Ho-Oh. With Marshadow alone, balance has re surged to be one of the more consistent playstyles atm, since teams lacking any type of check to it can easily be overwhelmed by it when it is given an opportunity to switchin. While its unimpressive stats compared to other top tier Ubers threats does hold it back somewhat, Marshadow's influence alone on teambuilding warrants it a rise to A+ imo.

A- -> A (between Primal Kyogre and Deoxys-A)
Arceus-Fairy has evolved from being a good but not optimal support Arceus forme into being one of the best options for an Arceus slot in the post-Marsh meta. It is so good to have a mon that can switch into Marsh's most powerful STAB move and be able to consistently force it out with its own STAB attacks. It also appreciates the influx of Scarf Yveltal and decrease usage of Mega Lucario. Defog and Calm Mind sets are both splashable in their own right and can both cause a nuisance to a majority of teams. It still hates facing Mega Gengar and does not appreciate the popularity of Toxapex and defensive Ho-Oh, but Arceus-Fairy has proven itself to be one of the best Arceus slots behind Arceus-Ground.

UR -> B- (between Mega Mewtwo-X and Bronzong)
Quite astonished not to see this threat ranked as of yet even pre-Marsh since it still paired well with stuff like DD Mega Mence and Rayquaza. Nonetheless, Gothitelle capitalizes on the rise of Support Arceus formes and more passive threats in general thanks to Marshadow's influence, meaning that it can setup Calm Mind sweeps much more easily then it could have before. It still proves to be one of the best stallbreakers in the game (note something that should be taken into account heavily due to the archetypes rise in popularity), and provides useful support for a variety of threats such as Bulk Up Marshadow and Z-Geo Xerneas. While this might seem as a huge jump, I believe it to be warranted just given how Goth takes advantage of the recent meta changes so nicely.

Here are some inner rank changes I could also see happen:
- lowered (below Primal Kyogre)
- lowered (between Zygarde-C and Rayquaza)
- risen (between Giratina-O and Zygarde-C)
- lowered (between Dialga and Mega Blaziken)
- lowered (between Tyranitar and Magearna)
- risen (between Mega Mewtwo-Y and Blissey)
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Been starting to play more post-Marshadow and have some thoughts to share:

A -> A+ (between Yveltal and Mega Mence)
This single threat has literally warped the metagame around it ever since its release, and this is evident through how much it has impacted the viability of certain team archetypes and influences what compositions of threats they choose to run. For example, the pre-Marsh meta had been pretty dominated by various HO builds due to them being effective in winning the hazard war and ultimately sweeping with either DoubleDance Pdon, Power Herb Xern, or DD Mega Salamence / SD Mega Lucario. However, due to Marshadow's introduction, the overall viability of these teams have strictly diminished and have forced options such as Scarf Yveltal and Z-Geomancy Xern to be run in order to acquire an actual check that can switchin and force it out. I have heard a lot of criticism upon Marshadow's incapability to break through stall, however Bulk Up sets with SSSS provides it enough power to blow back most checks after one boost, making these teams needing to fall back on threats like defensive Toxapex and Ho-Oh. With Marshadow alone, balance has re surged to be one of the more consistent playstyles atm, since teams lacking any type of check to it can easily be overwhelmed by it when it is given an opportunity to switchin. While its unimpressive stats compared to other top tier Ubers threats does hold it back somewhat, Marshadow's influence alone on teambuilding warrants it a rise to A+ imo.

A- -> A (between Primal Kyogre and Deoxys-A)
Arceus-Fairy has evolved from being a good but not optimal support Arceus forme into being one of the best options for an Arceus slot in the post-Marsh meta. It is so good to have a mon that can switch into Marsh's most powerful STAB move and be able to consistently force it out with its own STAB attacks. It also appreciates the influx of Scarf Yveltal and decrease usage of Mega Lucario. Defog and Calm Mind sets are both splashable in their own right and can both cause a nuisance to a majority of teams. It still hates facing Mega Gengar and does not appreciate the popularity of Toxapex and defensive Ho-Oh, but Arceus-Fairy has proven itself to be one of the best Arceus slots behind Arceus-Ground.

UR -> B- (between Mega Mewtwo-X and Bronzong)
Quite astonished not to see this threat ranked as of yet even pre-Marsh since it still paired well with stuff like DD Mega Mence and Rayquaza. Nonetheless, Gothitelle capitalizes on the rise of Support Arceus formes and more passive threats in general thanks to Marshadow's influence, meaning that it can setup Calm Mind sweeps much more easily then it could have before. It still proves to be one of the best stallbreakers in the game (note something that should be taken into account heavily due to the archetypes rise in popularity), and provides useful support for a variety of threats such as Bulk Up Marshadow and Z-Geo Xerneas. While this might seem as a huge jump, I believe it to be warranted just given how Goth takes advantage of the recent meta changes so nicely.

Here are some inner rank changes I could also see happen:
- lowered (below Primal Kyogre)
- lowered (between Zygarde-C and Rayquaza)
- risen (between Giratina-O and Zygarde-C)
- lowered (between Dialga and Mega Blaziken)
- lowered (between Tyranitar and Magearna)
- risen (between Mega Mewtwo-Y and Blissey)
I don't know if changing teambuilding really warrants it to be in the same tier as Mega Mence and Yveltal. A good SM ubers team has to carry specific checks or moves specifically for these mons (for example Roar Pdon for Mega Mence or Fairyceus for Yveltal) and that doesn't really apply to Marsh since it's checked by Pdon, Xern, or Fairyceus for example and those mons are already very useful and common regardless of Marsh (Fairyceus's rise is partly due to Marsh but it's always been a solid support Arceus form and it already recieved a huge boost this gen because of Yveltal's increased usage).

I would argue that Goth deserves to be ranked a little higher, this thing is an automatic gg against any stall build that doesn't carry a specific counter to it (like the shed shell Toxapex I encountered in Ubers Open r1) and also does a huge dent in balance builds by killing support Arceus forms that are extremely important as balance teams suffer a lot from rocks.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
If your only marshadow answer is a Pdon, you're going to lose to it. The effect Marshadow has had on the meta is almost undoubtedly as much of an effect as Yveltal has had, in my opinion at least.
That wasn't what I said, I said that Pdon can switch into Marshadow not that Pdon is enough to be your only answer
 
I don't know if changing teambuilding really warrants it to be in the same tier as Mega Mence and Yveltal. A good SM ubers team has to carry specific checks or moves specifically for these mons (for example Roar Pdon for Mega Mence or Fairyceus for Yveltal) and that doesn't really apply to Marsh since it's checked by Pdon, Xern, or Fairyceus for example and those mons are already very useful and common regardless of Marsh (Fairyceus's rise is partly due to Marsh but it's always been a solid support Arceus form and it already recieved a huge boost this gen because of Yveltal's increased usage).

I would argue that Goth deserves to be ranked a little higher, this thing is an automatic gg against any stall build that doesn't carry a specific counter to it (like the shed shell Toxapex I encountered in Ubers Open r1) and also does a huge dent in balance builds by killing support Arceus forms that are extremely important as balance teams suffer a lot from rocks.
Marsh is a pokemon that is not on the level of Yvetal, specifically. Yvetal can counter a non ice-punch marsh, and Mega Mence can also do the same. (Notice the non-ice punch.) I, though think that marsh could get a rise if Arceus sees more usage in Ultra Sun/Moon, or if Other mons that Marsh beats get a rise in the new games. (Forgive my short bit and lack of elaboration)
 
Marsh is a pokemon that is not on the level of Yvetal, specifically. Yvetal can counter a non ice-punch marsh, and Mega Mence can also do the same. (Notice the non-ice punch.) I, though think that marsh could get a rise if Arceus sees more usage in Ultra Sun/Moon, or if Other mons that Marsh beats get a rise in the new games. (Forgive my short bit and lack of elaboration)
Is there some reason you'd run Ice Punch to hit Yveltal over Rock Tomb, which I think is commonly used to deal with Ho-oh and hits significantly harder thanks to Technician?
 
Is there some reason you'd run Ice Punch to hit Yveltal over Rock Tomb, which I think is commonly used to deal with Ho-oh and hits significantly harder thanks to Technician?
You'd be running HP ice over ice punch and hp ice's use is to OHKO Mega Salamence and Landorus-T and to 2HKO Zygarde-C
 
I was scrolling through the Viability Rankings and I believe what I have to say about Alolan Muk makes sense and could help with future rankings.

Alolan Muk- B -> C+


Alolan Muk is by no means bad in the Ubers tier. It isn't great, hell, I wouldn't even call it good, but I certainly wouldn't call it terrible. Although, if the Ubers Viability Council has decided that Pokemon such as Magearna, Mega Mewtwo Y, Tapu Lele, Chansey, and Giratina are what define the rating of B, then it's certainly obvious that a Pokemon like Alolan Muk doesn't belong there.
Firstly, Alolan Muk is said to have a niche within the Ubers tier for being a reliable Pursuit trapper, which may be somewhat valid, although its resistances are very, very unreliable, and almost irrelevant. It resists Grass, which obviously means almost nothing in this tier. It resists Dark, which will almost always only matter for something like Yveltal, which would be good, if it could do any damage to Yveltal in return. Poison is an obvious resistance, as this Pokemon itself is a Poison type, although with something like Groudon ruling the metagame currently, and Poison just not having much of a presence offensively, this resistance, alike almost all of its others, is just merely "not good." Second to last, it resists Ghost, which is decent, seeing as we have breakers such as Gengar and Marshadow running rampant in the tier. But even so, resisting two mons isn't really much to be proud of, not to mention that Marshadow can hit it Physically for neutral damage and isn't hit very effectively by Pursuit. Moving on to its final resistance, or in this case, an immunity, Alolan Muk is failed to be affected by Psychic type moves. This simply means almost nothing, as our current metagame in Ubers is most unpleasant for Psychic types, driving them to be very, very uncommon. Aside from things like maybe Deoxys, and Tapu Lele.

With that being said, since Psychic types are so uncommon in the Ubers tier, why would someone not go with a special wall such as Toxapex over Alolan Muk, as it resists at least one of Groudon's stab, and resists Xerneas' stab. If something needs to get poisoned, it's guaranteed that Toxapex, or even Waterceus will do this job much better than Alolan Muk. To add on to this, Toxapex gets regenerator, which is reliable recovery compared to the mere nothing that Alolan Muk gets in terms of recovery. Lastly, regarding its competition with something like Toxapex, or Waterceus if we wanted to go that far, Alolan Muk's Physically Defensive Presence is far from reliable. With something like Toxapex, you can both Poison your foes, be a Physical Wall, and a Special Wall, all at once, and obviously the same goes for Waterceus, which not to mention, can also give Defog support.

Now yes, of course, Toxapex and Waterceus are already ranked above Alolan Muk, but this just goes to show that there are better options in the metagame. Besides, Alolan Muk is currently (according to the Viability Rankings) just as good a Support Mon as Giratina or even Magearna. This is obviously false, as Magearna can act as a much better AV user, as it has more resistances, an extra immunity, and possesses the ability to put major dents in defensive teams with a monster 130 base Special Attack stat, and an added superbly annoying Fairy stab. Moving on to Giratina, this Pokemon can also act as a bulkier choice than Alolan Muk if we're discussing being defensive in both ways, Specially and Physically. Along with this ability, its also a reliable Defogger, and it still has access to our beloved Toxic if that's what the user needs, not to mention that it can put mediocre, yet decent dents in certain teams with a formidable base 100 in both Physical and Special Attack.

I firmly believe that it would make all the more sense to rank Alolan Muk alongside things such as Rockceus, Shuckle, Ditto, and Solgaleo, as everything even in B- still outperforms Muk in the support factor of things, being as Cloyster has access to hazards, and Klefki has an amazing ability in Prankster, as well as a helpful resistance to Xerneas alike Skarmory and Bronzong which can also act as even stronger walls.







 
That is not why Alolan Muk was dropped at all. Alolan Muk fits on less defensive teams nowadays thanks to the proliferation of Toxapex on these teams, which has somewhat redundant type synergy with Alolan Muk. Tyranitar has become a better pick on these types of teams due to its ability to compress Stealth Rock and Pursuit duties in one teamslot. That said, you are still vastly underselling Alolan Muk and a lot of the reasons you provided for dropping it so far are not good.

The Pokemon in B- you are comparing Muk to do not compete with Muk for a teamslot. Muk is a Pursuit trapper and general special sponge that also acts as a hard stop to threatening special attackers such as Xerneas and can be a menace to deal with thanks to its access to its annoying ability useful utility moves such as Knock Off. The Pokemon you have compared Muk to perform completely different functions to Muk and, in some cases, are simply not as good at all. Skarmory is a physical wall that provides a cold stop to Swords Dance Arceus formes and has access to Spikes and Defog. However, metagame trends have shifted against it; Fire-type move offensive Primal Groudon has become more common, and Celesteela exists, which can generally compensate for its lack of outright utility on most defensive teams with its much greater overall bulk - this confines Skarmory to very bulky teams that require its level of role compression. Cloyster is fine on certain hyper offensive teams as an offensive Spikes setter that compresses the ability to threaten Arceus-Ground and hazard removal, but hyper offense has somewhat decreased in relevance since Marshadow was released so it has by extension become less prevalent. Klefki is kind of bad in this metagame for reasons that should be self-explanatory. Bronzong is an excellent check to several top threats, such as Arceus-Ground and Xerneas, despite its several crippling weaknesses (by the way, Bronzong also does not compete with Muk for a teamslot). Including the fact that Toxapex and Arceus-Water (which also perform completely different functions to Muk) being ranked higher than Muk does not make any sense; that is why they are in the A ranks and Muk is in B to begin with. Your post completely disregards the utility Muk still offers to some defensive teams, such as Chansey stalls that opt for Ho-Oh and more balanced teams that require its unique cocktail of abilities

This all being said, I am inclined to believe you are not very familiar with this metagame, given you mention Magearna as an Assault Vest user, which it is not (it runs Leftovers in Ubers); Giratina as a Pokemon that can "put dents" in teams, which it does not (it is the epitome of "sit there" from an offensive standpoint); and Toxapex as a special wall, which it is not (horrible typing for a special wall in this metagame and you mention it as a Primal Groudon check... which it also isn't). Muk could probably drop a hair further, but not for the reasons you mentioned. It is not on the same level as Digimon such as Arceus-Rock, Shuckle, and Darkrai at all.
 
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kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Mega Diancie: Unranked -> B or B+
Mega Diancie got released and just like last gen it is a great mon on balance and even bulky offense teams. First off its ability means that it can counterlead common HO leads such as Smeargle, Deo-S, and Cloyster, mons that normally cause a lot of problems on balance. It does the same for bulky offense teams, which usually give the hazard removal role to Fairyceus or Groundceus, making it harder for them to check the mons they need to later in the game. Although you should still probably run a defogger Mega Diancie helps ease the burden on whatever your Arceus form is by making it harder for your opponent to get up hazards in the first place. Magic Bounce also allows it to switch into status spammers such as Lugia and Giratina-A. On top of its useful ability Diancie also has a unique typing which allows it to easily switch into Yveltal and Ho-Oh and force a switch, giving you a free turn to use one of many support moves such as heal bell and stealth rock, or get a calm mind in. Finally it's a decent threat to stall, it can even run a memier set like this one to cteam stall effectively (unfortunately it only works if you can get in a magnet rise on the turn your opponent switches to Groundceus).

As I said before this mon works great on balance and to an extent bulky offense due to its typing ability and decent offensive stats, and we should reflect that on the rankings.

I didn't include obvious ones
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 170-200 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 240-284 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 378-446 (90 - 106.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 378-446 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 414-488 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 278-328 (91.4 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 292-344 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Diancie-Mega Earth Power vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 396-466 (103.3 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Finally what is this hot new meme where important words are bolded
 
Nomming Arceus-Flying D to C

After HunterStorm made the squad he built for Level 56 in seasonals with flyceus, the team became quite popular, and it shows flyceus isnt trash and its definitly C rank worthy. It isn't outclassed by darkceus anymore since marsh release and flyceus also walls luke. I think the results with it have proven it worthy of a raise though.
 
That is not why Alolan Muk was dropped at all. Alolan Muk fits on less defensive teams nowadays thanks to the proliferation of Toxapex on these teams, which has somewhat redundant type synergy with Alolan Muk. Tyranitar has become a better pick on these types of teams due to its ability to compress Stealth Rock and Pursuit duties in one teamslot. That said, you are still vastly underselling Alolan Muk and a lot of the reasons you provided for dropping it so far are not good.

The Pokemon in B- you are comparing Muk to do not compete with Muk for a teamslot. Muk is a Pursuit trapper and general special sponge that also acts as a hard stop to threatening special attackers such as Xerneas and can be a menace to deal with thanks to its access to its annoying ability useful utility moves such as Knock Off. The Pokemon you have compared Muk to perform completely different functions to Muk and, in some cases, are simply not as good at all. Skarmory is a physical wall that provides a cold stop to Swords Dance Arceus formes and has access to Spikes and Defog. However, metagame trends have shifted against it; Fire-type move offensive Primal Groudon has become more common, and Celesteela exists, which can generally compensate for its lack of outright utility on most defensive teams with its much greater overall bulk - this confines Skarmory to very bulky teams that require its level of role compression. Cloyster is fine on certain hyper offensive teams as an offensive Spikes setter that compresses the ability to threaten Arceus-Ground and hazard removal, but hyper offense has somewhat decreased in relevance since Marshadow was released so it has by extension become less prevalent. Klefki is kind of bad in this metagame for reasons that should be self-explanatory. Bronzong isn't even B-, it's B. Speaking of Bronzong, it is still an excellent check to several top threats, such as Arceus-Ground and Xerneas, despite its several crippling weaknesses (by the way, Bronzong also does not compete with Muk for a teamslot). Including the fact that Toxapex and Arceus-Water (which also perform completely different functions to Muk) being ranked higher than Muk does not make any sense; that is why they are in the A ranks and Muk is in B to begin with. Your post completely disregards the utility Muk still offers to some defensive teams, such as Chansey stalls that opt for Ho-Oh and more balanced teams that require its unique cocktail of abilities

This all being said, I am inclined to believe you are not very familiar with this metagame, given you mention Magearna as an Assault Vest user, which it is not (it runs Leftovers in Ubers); Giratina as a Pokemon that can "put dents" in teams, which it does not (it is the epitome of "sit there" from an offensive standpoint); and Toxapex as a special wall, which it is not (horrible typing for a special wall in this metagame and you mention it as a Primal Groudon check... which it also isn't). Muk could probably drop a hair further, but not for the reasons you mentioned. It is not on the same level as Digimon such as Arceus-Rock, Shuckle, and Darkrai at all.

What I'm attempting to say when I mention things like Mag, Giratina, and Toxapex, is that all of these Pokemon have more flexibility than Alolan Muk, and I'm not saying that Alolan Muk needs the ability to be offensive. I am saying that things like Giratina, Mag, and Pex all would give a team more benefit than something as poor as Alolan Muk would, being that Magearna CAN run AV, and Toxapex CAN provide Specially Defensive Support. I am indeed familiar with this metagame, and I know that anyone else who is can recognize that Alolan Muk indeed does belong in the same league as the "Digimon" you've mentioned. Tyranitar does what Alolan Muk does better, for what it's worth I suppose. A Pursuit trapper in Ubers is anything but needed, and that's basically what Alolan Muk is- a Pursuit trapper- something that's just not needed. His resistances are weak, his immunities are outclassed, and his use just isn't needed. Shuckle, Smeargle, and Klefki would all provide a more valuable team slot, hell, I'd rather use Pursuit fucking Smeargle. Perhaps I want to move him down too far (which I don't Dx) but he does deserve to be moved down one way or another, and all of the reasons I have previously stated would indeed play a part in this, as they are all flaws of Muk's.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
What I'm attempting to say when I mention things like Mag, Giratina, and Toxapex, is that all of these Pokemon have more flexibility than Alolan Muk, and I'm not saying that Alolan Muk needs the ability to be offensive. I am saying that things like Giratina, Mag, and Pex all would give a team more benefit than something as poor as Alolan Muk would, being that Magearna CAN run AV, and Toxapex CAN provide Specially Defensive Support. I am indeed familiar with this metagame, and I know that anyone else who is can recognize that Alolan Muk indeed does belong in the same league as the "Digimon" you've mentioned. Tyranitar does what Alolan Muk does better, for what it's worth I suppose. A Pursuit trapper in Ubers is anything but needed, and that's basically what Alolan Muk is- a Pursuit trapper- something that's just not needed. His resistances are weak, his immunities are outclassed, and his use just isn't needed. Shuckle, Smeargle, and Klefki would all provide a more valuable team slot, hell, I'd rather use Pursuit fucking Smeargle. Perhaps I want to move him down too far (which I don't Dx) but he does deserve to be moved down one way or another, and all of the reasons I have previously stated would indeed play a part in this, as they are all flaws of Muk's.
To address your confusion, the advantage of A-Muk over Tyranitar is that A-Muk can always switch into Gengar and Lunala and pursuit trap either, while Tyranitar cannot if either of them are running Focus Blast. So it does have at least one advantage over Tyranitar, whether or not that advantage means that it's better depends on your team. You said that "a pursuit trapper is anything in ubers but needed" which is blatantly false, you absolutely need to have a pursuit trapper on stall teams with Chansey or otherwise you'll lose it to M-Gengar.

And why do you keep mentioning random mons that have nothing to do with A-Muk in this post? Magearna is a Xerneas counter, Giratina is a defogger with offensive presence, Toxapex is a physical wall, Smeargle and Shuckle are sticky web leads, and Klefki is a mostly irrelevant status spammer. None of them have the same role as A-Muk so there's no point in talking about them
 
To address your confusion, the advantage of A-Muk over Tyranitar is that A-Muk can always switch into Gengar and Lunala and pursuit trap either, while Tyranitar cannot if either of them are running Focus Blast. So it does have at least one advantage over Tyranitar, whether or not that advantage means that it's better depends on your team. You said that "a pursuit trapper is anything in ubers but needed" which is blatantly false, you absolutely need to have a pursuit trapper on stall teams with Chansey or otherwise you'll lose it to M-Gengar.

And why do you keep mentioning random mons that have nothing to do with A-Muk in this post? Magearna is a Xerneas counter, Giratina is a defogger with offensive presence, Toxapex is a physical wall, Smeargle and Shuckle are sticky web leads, and Klefki is a mostly irrelevant status spammer. None of them have the same role as A-Muk so there's no point in talking about them

My point with mentioning other Pokemon is just to say that they are purely better than Alolan Muk. Regarding the stall team comment you've made about Pursuit trappers and them being needed on stall. If a Pokemon is only usable at all on stall, as Alolan Muk basically is, it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y.
 
My point with mentioning other Pokemon is just to say that they are purely better than Alolan Muk. Regarding the stall team comment you've made about Pursuit trappers and them being needed on stall. If a Pokemon is only usable at all on stall, as Alolan Muk basically is, it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y.
??

Alolan Muk is by no means only usable on stall, and I see nowhere where anyone has mentioned it is. In fact, it has seen use on more offensive/balanced themes as a solid check to threats like Deoxys-A and Mega Gengar. Your posts show a pretty clear lack of understanding of Alolan Muk's niche in the metagame. You haven't made any actual arguments as to why it should drop, outside of likening it to Pokemon that it really faces no competition from (by the way, running Assault Vest on Magearna completely defeats its niche as one of the best Geomancy Xerneas stops with Heart Swap). You say that "it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y", but you haven't made any effort to explain why these Pokemon are so much better than Alolan Muk. Magearna pretty much does nothing outside of checking Xerneas / Yveltal and is hard walled by Fire-types like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon, while Mega Mewtwo Y is fast and powerful but faces competition from Deoxys-A, has poor physical bulk, and comes with opportunity cost because you're choosing to use it over a potentially more useful Mega Evolution. I am not going to deny that Alolan Muk has its flaws; it's setup bait for Primal Groudon, Mega Lucario etc. and faces competition from Tyranitar and Toxapex. These are the reasons why it dropped after all. However, Alolan Muk's good defensive typing (a dark resist + psychic immunity is still actually pretty useful in this meta) and colossal special bulk alongside access to Pursuit definitely gives it a good enough niche to stay in B.
 
??

Alolan Muk is by no means only usable on stall, and I see nowhere where anyone has mentioned it is. In fact, it has seen use on more offensive/balanced themes as a solid check to threats like Deoxys-A and Mega Gengar. Your posts show a pretty clear lack of understanding of Alolan Muk's niche in the metagame. You haven't made any actual arguments as to why it should drop, outside of likening it to Pokemon that it really faces no competition from (by the way, running Assault Vest on Magearna completely defeats its niche as one of the best Geomancy Xerneas stops with Heart Swap). You say that "it doesn't deserve to be ranked among things like Magearna and Mega Mewtwo Y", but you haven't made any effort to explain why these Pokemon are so much better than Alolan Muk. Magearna pretty much does nothing outside of checking Xerneas / Yveltal and is hard walled by Fire-types like Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon, while Mega Mewtwo Y is fast and powerful but faces competition from Deoxys-A, has poor physical bulk, and comes with opportunity cost because you're choosing to use it over a potentially more useful Mega Evolution. I am not going to deny that Alolan Muk has its flaws; it's setup bait for Primal Groudon, Mega Lucario etc. and faces competition from Tyranitar and Toxapex. These are the reasons why it dropped after all. However, Alolan Muk's good defensive typing (a dark resist + psychic immunity is still actually pretty useful in this meta) and colossal special bulk alongside access to Pursuit definitely gives it a good enough niche to stay in B.

Mega Mewtwo Y has great coverage, it has the ability to catch things like Rayquaza with an Ice Beam on the switch, it can Fire Blast things like Mag, and it has access to the obvious Shadow Ball and Psystrike, it's a fairly decent hard-hitting mon. Magearna threatens Dark and Dragon types (obviously) and can do damage to teams with Heart Swaps from Xerneas, as well as take Psychic attacks extremely reliably (which you've stated is pretty nice, and I somewhat agree.) And saying that Magearna being hard walled by Fire types like Ho-Oh and Groudon is simply silly, as Alolan Muk has less of a use than Mag, and possesses problems with things like Ho-Oh and Groudon. I simply believe that Alolan Muk is just less useful than Mega Mewtwo Y, and Magearna, and obviously Toxapex and Tyranitar as well, which you've already stated. Perhaps it doesn't deserve to move all the way down to C+ (even though it does) but it indeed should be moved to B- at the minimum.
 
i ll defend my lil baby
that i gently introduce to the tier:

-60% can badly poison - something like 47% with poison jab and poison touch
-Clear smog that mean not a setup fodder bar subs user (that move what so damn mvp when the geoZ era was on everywhere)
-Pursuit trap reliably gengar/lunala/deoA and some other psy
-Awesome special bulk
-Acces to knock off (that pretty huge to knock off Ygod in this meta game when most of the teams choose scarf or defensive Yveltal as their marshadow answer)
-toxic/tspike absorber
-Acces to a lil revenge kill (outside of psyspam) or a chance to inflict that 30% that u needed


If you wanna see what ttar bring you to the team:

-ttar have acces to either shuca/chople berry lefties if you're greedy
-compress role can and should support SR
-Sand,actually sand is an huge support on these teams
-more reliable status (even if muk can hit 100% acc with toxic)
-Rock tomb/foul play acces
-should be durable with rest

Their both are compressed role who share different weakness exept for the ground one.
 
First post nomming a mon so I may be missing stuff, please correct me on what I'll need, but:
Nomming Genesect for C or C+
Genesect is a pretty powerful, and kinda underrated pokemon as of right now. It can 2HKO Primal Groudon's bulkiest sets with Sp.Def, it can keep momentum in your favor with U-turn and it can use flash cannon against the powerful fairies in the meta. While it doesn't have amazing bulk, it can take a few neutral hits from some threats in the meta.
Some calcs: 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 324-384 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 275-324 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Last edited:

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
First post nomming a mon so I may be missing stuff, please correct me on what I'll need, but:
Nomming Genesect for C or C+
Genesect is a pretty powerful, and kinda underrated pokemon as of right now. It can 2HKO Primal Groudon's bulkiest sets with Sp.Def, it can keep momentum in your favor with U-turn and it can use flash cannon against the powerful fairies in the meta. While it doesn't have amazing bulk, it can take a few neutral hits from some threats in the meta.
Some calcs: 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 324-384 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 275-324 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ubers-viability-ranking-thread-update-322.3591388/page-10
 
First post nomming a mon so I may be missing stuff, please correct me on what I'll need, but:
Nomming Genesect for C or C+
Genesect is a pretty powerful, and kinda underrated pokemon as of right now. It can 2HKO Primal Groudon's bulkiest sets with Sp.Def, it can keep momentum in your favor with U-turn and it can use flash cannon against the powerful fairies in the meta. While it doesn't have amazing bulk, it can take a few neutral hits from some threats in the meta.
Some calcs: 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 324-384 (78.8 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 204-241 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 275-324 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 188 SpA Choice Specs Genesect Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 300-354 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only flaw with Genesect is that it can't really stay in on anything (reliably) that you've listed except for Xerneas (sort of) and MAYBE Zygarde. It'd have to at least take one pretty heavy hit in order to fire back with the all of the power that you've shown us it possesses. The metagame is run by Primal Groudon unfortunately, which heavily hinders its ability to be anything that really stands out.
 
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