SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

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Ehh Im not really sure forretress warrants a rise right now. Yeah It can wall some more stuff but its still doesn't change how passive as fuck it is and there isn't really real motivation to use it. It has the ability to do many roles, but is shit at both entry hazard removal and walling due to how it comes in, is forced out by a strong special attacker, and is forced to switched out again. Its complete fodder for bulk up conk, sub buzz, and SD sciz which just means that its more worth to run something else rather than a mon that does nothing for most of the game because everyteam has a strong special attacker/taunter. Doesnt help that gyro ball has 8 pp along with being complete taunt bait rendering it worthless. Do not raise. Hell even drop it because most of the things it walls can still break through it with prior chip or just setting up.
 
I disagree with a Forretress rise for reasons that were already highlighted in the post above me, but one thing that I think is important to understand is that referencing Weavile doesn't make for a good argument at all. We don't know whether or not Weavile will be UU, so using it to justify any arguments at the moment doesn't really produce good discussion, considering it could be re-banned in two weeks time.

Before I leave, I would like to discuss some nominations I have of my own that I feel would better reflect the current metagame. Here they are:

Suicune up to B+: This one has been discussed a lot lately, but I think that it's even more justified what with the new drops. Vincune was already an amazing set prior to dropping, with easy setup opportunities against top tier threats in Mega Aerodactyl, Scizor, Gliscor, Swampert, Krookodile, and more. However, with some our most recent drops, Suicune is finding even more opportunities thanks to its ability to comfortably tank hits from Pokemon like Mega Beedrill, Mega Swampert, Mamoswine, Mega Steelix, and Buzzwole, who have all been seen everywhere ever since their entries into the tier. Not only can it use a lot of these new Pokemon as setup targets, but it can also use them as teammates to help enhance its chances of sweeping late-game. For instance, Mega Beedrill and Mamoswine can adequately pressure Hydreigon and Latias, who can comfortably tank Scalds while wearing Suicune down. Mega Beedrill, Mamoswine, Buzzwole, and Alolan Muk can pressure the Grass-types that impede Suicune's sweep. Electric-types are dealt with by Mamoswine, Mega Steelix, and Mega Swampert (and to an extent AV Muk), and Water immune Pokemon can be stopped by one of Buzzwole's coverage options or by Xurkitree. Overall, Suicune's really benefitted from the drops in that it uses a lot of the more prevalent ones as Pokemon to tank hits from and set up on, while also utilizing them as partners to remove the only things that usually are capable of halting its sweep. Please rise this thing, it really deserves it!

Jellicent up to B/B+: This thing is so good right now. The new drops supplied it with a TON of threats that it can really adequately keep in check thanks to its great bulk and ability to burn physical attackers. Buzzwole, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill, Mamoswine, and Mega Steelix are all drops that it's capable of really easily keeping in check, which is really amazing considering these mons prevalence. It can also adequately check mons that remain top tier threats in this new meta, like Mega Aerodactyl, Scizor, Cobalion, Terrakion, and Infernape. The amount of threats that Jellicent can keep at bay alone is just absolutely amazing, and its ability to form really potent cores on balanced and defensive teams with great defensive Pokemon like Amoonguss and Hippowdon really allows for it to be easily fitted on teams. Overall, it's so much more consistent than everything else in B-, or at least has a much more appreciated niche, which overall is grounds for a rise to at least B in my opinion.

Toxicroak down to C+: This was brought up a few times already as well, but has seemed to get lost in discussion. Overall, Toxicroak really struggles in the current meta due to a plethora of reasons. It's main function is as a setup sweeper, but both its Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets have competition from other Fighting-types. Terrakion and Cobalion generally outcompete it as Swords Dance users, as both can boost Speed, take on a larger number of threats, and have more setup opportunities due to either better bulk or the ability to force more threats out, while Infernape's generally better as a Nasty Plot user due to its better Speed (Salazzle also gives it some heavy comp as a Poison-type Nasty Plot user, due to its better Speed and typing for setup). While its Water-type immunity could be brought up as an argument, I feel that the fact that most premier Water-types beat it with Psychic coverage they often carry (Primarina, Starmie, Mega Shark) and that others have other moves to nail it with (Mega Pert with EQ, Volcanion with Fire Blast or Earth Power) sort of means that Toxicroak will only be able to put its ability to notable use against mono attackers like Suicune or Pokemon that don't threaten it with their additional STABs or coverage, like Tentacruel and Mega Blastoise.

Thanks for reading!
 

Amane Misa

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C+ → B-
Forretress has a niche of having a pretty good defensive typing, coupled with good defensive stats, access to every form of hazard barring Sticky Web and Rapid Spin. Forretress also has access to Volt Switch, which enhances its pivoting competence.

However, Forretress' offensive presence is almost non-existent. Its most reliable STAB, Gyro Ball, only has 8PP and it doesn't hit as hard as you expect it to be. Due to that, Forretress is amusingly abused by what you expect it to counter such as Swords Dance Scizor, Calm Mind Latias, Substitute Buzzwole and so on. Furthermore, it is worn down easily by hazards and Pokémon its meant to counter, such as Mega Beedrill and Choice Band Scizor repetitively U-turning on it.

Thus, I strongly disagree with raising Forretress to B-. Its place is C+ at best.

B
- → B / B+
I already made a post about why Jellicent needs to go up in viability but I will make another one because I think it is one of the most overlooked Pokémon right now.

Since the recent drops, Jellicent kept its role as the best spinblocker. Furthermore, it’s great bulk coupled with an amazing defensive typing allow it to not only counter what it countered before the drops, but also counter recent drops: Buzzwole, Mega Beedrill (Colbur Berry), Mega Swampert and et cetera.

With rain-based teams raising in popularity, Jellicent forces mind games and does not allow opponents to mindlessly spam Water type moves. Jellicent is definitely entitled to be ranked higher.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594679879
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594675732
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594668665
 
C+ → B-
Forretress has a niche of having a pretty good defensive typing, coupled with good defensive stats, access to every form of hazard barring Sticky Web and Rapid Spin. Forretress also has access to Volt Switch, which enhances its pivoting competence.

However, Forretress' offensive presence is almost non-existent. Its most reliable STAB, Gyro Ball, only has 8PP and it doesn't hit as hard as you expect it to be. Due to that, Forretress is amusingly abused by what you expect it to counter such as Swords Dance Scizor, Calm Mind Latias, Substitute Buzzwole and so on. Furthermore, it is worn down easily by hazards and Pokémon its meant to counter, such as Mega Beedrill and Choice Band Scizor repetitively U-turning on it.

Thus, I strongly disagree with raising Forretress to B-. Its place is C+ at best.

B
- → B / B+
I already made a post about why Jellicent needs to go up in viability but I will make another one because I think it is one of the most overlooked Pokémon right now.

Since the recent drops, Jellicent kept its role as the best spinblocker. Furthermore, it’s great bulk coupled with an amazing defensive typing allow it to not only counter what it countered before the drops, but also counter recent drops: Buzzwole, Mega Beedrill (Colbur Berry), Mega Swampert and et cetera.

With rain-based teams raising in popularity, Jellicent forces mind games and does not allow opponents to mindlessly spam Water type moves. Jellicent is definitely entitled to be ranked higher.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594679879
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594675732
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-594668665
I don't understand why you want jellicent to rise, it's not very good to be honest, it is vulnerable to pursuit trapping, it hates knock off, it gets owned by threats like weavile, xurkitree, Krookodile, Alolan muk and any stat booster.
If you are looking for a bulky water type use slowbro or alomoloma, because jellicent is not very good imo. Jellicent does NOT warrant a rise atm and it should stay B- at best
 
I don't understand why you want jellicent to rise, it's not very good to be honest, it is vulnerable to pursuit trapping, it hates knock off, it gets owned by threats like weavile, xurkitree, Krookodile, Alolan muk and any stat booster.
If you are looking for a bulky water type use slowbro or alomoloma, because jellicent is not very good imo. Jellicent does NOT warrant a rise atm and it should stay B- at best
Xurkitree i'll give you because it dicks most of the waters in this tier but all of those other mons you mentioned get their knock offs colbur berried (which is easily its best item imho) and then burned and after that jellicent recovers off easily. not to mention all 3 of weavile, krook, and alomuk don't want to switch in on scald anyways for the same fear. also every common jelli i've seen runs taunt so slow stat boosters have to play around that, not to mention most SD users don't like being burned anyways unless they're heracross i guess. also also slowbro has way less special bulk which is not good when you may have to switch in on latias in a pinch while alo is way too passive to fit on faster-paced teams. furthermore neither has that nice water immunity that makes jellicent a good stop to new threats such as megapert. it still kind of hates status bc it has no way to heal that by itself and hydreigon rising in popularity isn't good for it but rising is definitely deserved. supporting Jellicent to B.

sorry for poor formatting am posting on phone
 
Xurkitree i'll give you because it dicks most of the waters in this tier but all of those other mons you mentioned get their knock offs colbur berried (which is easily its best item imho) and then burned and after that jellicent recovers off easily. not to mention all 3 of weavile, krook, and alomuk don't want to switch in on scald anyways for the same fear. also every common jelli i've seen runs taunt so slow stat boosters have to play around that, not to mention most SD users don't like being burned anyways unless they're heracross i guess. also also slowbro has way less special bulk which is not good when you may have to switch in on latias in a pinch while alo is way too passive to fit on faster-paced teams. furthermore neither has that nice water immunity that makes jellicent a good stop to new threats such as megapert. it still kind of hates status bc it has no way to heal that by itself and hydreigon rising in popularity isn't good for it but rising is definitel deserved. supporting Jellicent to B.

sorry for poor formatting am posting on phone
I think a rise to B is fine but B+ isn't
 
I'm gonna make one more nomination: Mamoswine: A- to A

I know what you are thinking, "Why? It is walled by Buzzwole and Xurkitree KOes it with grass knot, it should stay A-"
While those things may be true, that doesn't change the fact that Mamoswine can threaten most of the entire tier. Earthquake can OHKO assault vest Alolan-Muk, and ice shard can OHKO Mega-Sceptile. Superpower variants can destroy other Mamoswine, the occasional Snorlax, and Krookodile, along with other threats weak to fighting moves, while knock off variants can cripple pokemon like Latias, Jellicent, Slowbro, and any pokemon that rely heavily on their item. Icicle Crash can also do serious damage to ground, Dragon, and flying types like Mega Pidgeot, hippowdon, Gliscor, Krookodile, Latias, etc.
Also, Mamoswine has a great ability in thick fat that lets it get past fire types and fire type moves like Heat wave on pidgeot, flare blitz on infernape, and other fire coverage moves. Thick fat also gives Mamoswine a resistance to ice type moves which can be useful against anything with Ice typing. While it may be walled by a few things, (cough cough Buzzwole cough Alomomola) it has very few switch ins and can be a nightmare to face if you don't have a reliable answer to it.
 
Forretress: stay at C+

Forretress is trash. As hazard removal, it suffers from competition from every other remover who does something better than it. Its only real niche over them is that it can lay down hazards too, but other than Scizor, Forretress loses to every common hazard remover, meaning that the opponent can easily force it out and get rid of hazards. Combined with the lack of recovery or speed, it's very easy to force Forretress to only be able to spin or set hazards, not both. It does both roles in theory, but it heavily struggles to do either of them, so often times it really just does nothing.

As a wall, it struggles with the complete lack of reliable recovery, meaning that chipping it down is not difficult at all. This is made worse by the fact that since it is also supposed to remove hazards, it will often times have to take damage from hazards, making its job of walling shit even more difficult. It basically requires you to have a secondary check to whatever Forretress is trying to take on, since it has trouble actually walling and dealing with things. It's set up fodder for so many dangerous threats, including SD Scizor, SD Cobalion, Buzzwole, and Xurkitree, all of which are basically invited in for free since even if you do click volt switch on their switch in, well it probably means that Forretress wasn't able to even spin or set up hazards, allowing the opponents to keep up hazards or allowing the opponent to switch out with no punishment from hazards because Forretress couldn't set them up. Honestly it's so easy to have a team that just punishes Forretress with at least one member without even putting in any thought.

Don't raise it, the metagame is just so unkind to it, there are so many things that just love having a free turn, and Forretress donates free turns like I donate free wins. Don't get me wrong, Forretress does have some merit to it, that's why it's ranked in the first place, but I absolutely don't think it should rise, it's just not good enough at anything it tries to do to justify being in the b ranks.
 

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I think Florges deserves a rank if Sylveon is being ranked, the ability to run a CM set while still providing clerical duties for a team is really nice and gives it a somewhat better matchup vs Pidgeot as opposed to something like Sylveon, which due to lower special bulk and the usual lack of CM on it's standard bulky set can struggle to cope with Work Up Pidgeot in some situations, for example if it switches in as it boosts. The lack of Wish on what I think is the best Florges set might be alarming but when compared to Sylveon, Synthesis is much better at preserving your teams momentum, especially as Hippowdon seems to be a little rarer now than before the shifts from my personal experience. Of course if you don't think Calm Mind is necessary and you're pairing with pokemon like Mega Steelix on bulkier archetypes a cleric set with both Wish and Synthesis is great at both spreading healing and keeping itself in shape without being a total momentum suck. I would have them in the same rank in my personal experience, but I get that might not be the general opinion so I could settle for a subrank lower.
 
I think Florges deserves a rank if Sylveon is being ranked, the ability to run a CM set while still providing clerical duties for a team is really nice and gives it a somewhat better matchup vs Pidgeot as opposed to something like Sylveon, which due to lower special bulk and the usual lack of CM on it's standard bulky set can struggle to cope with Work Up Pidgeot in some situations, for example if it switches in as it boosts. The lack of Wish on what I think is the best Florges set might be alarming but when compared to Sylveon, Synthesis is much better at preserving your teams momentum, especially as Hippowdon seems to be a little rarer now than before the shifts from my personal experience. Of course if you don't think Calm Mind is necessary and you're pairing with pokemon like Mega Steelix on bulkier archetypes a cleric set with both Wish and Synthesis is great at both spreading healing and keeping itself in shape without being a total momentum suck. I would have them in the same rank in my personal experience, but I get that might not be the general opinion so I could settle for a subrank lower.
Do you have any replays with Florges? It seems like it has some cool traits that might make it worthy of a ranking, and you did a good job of laying them out, I just really want to see it in action.
 
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Chiming in with my opinion on Forretress: Stay in C+. It's still passive as hell and is a wall with no active recovery. Low SDef doesn't help its case, either. ProfessorMasterChief before me has explained it all; go read his post.
 
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Raikou and Primarina should be dropped to A- or even B+, as Xurkitree is a hard counter to the former and outclasses the latter.
 
Raikou and Primarina should be dropped to A- or even B+, as Xurkitree is a hard counter to the former and outclasses the latter.
Uhhhh, no? What you said is completely ridiculous and false. Xurkitree would lose to Raikou if it switches in on a Calm Mind because it's slower then Raikou, gets nearly always 2HKOed by a +1 Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock, and can't hit Raikou back hard like at all. Primarina and Xurkitree do very much difefrent things from each other, and Primarina can boast having some kind of defensive backbone to it with it's special defence and typing while Xurkitree literally canno't because it's frail and has a worse typing in terms of defensive utility. Also, they do very much different things and hit different Pokemon.

Please actually do some kind of research before you try and post stuff like this
 
Uhhhh, no? What you said is completely ridiculous and false. Xurkitree would lose to Raikou if it switches in on a Calm Mind because it's slower then Raikou, gets nearly always 2HKOed by a +1 Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock, and can't hit Raikou back hard like at all. Primarina and Xurkitree do very much difefrent things from each other, and Primarina can boast having some kind of defensive backbone to it with it's special defence and typing while Xurkitree literally canno't because it's frail and has a worse typing in terms of defensive utility. Also, they do very much different things and hit different Pokemon.

Please actually do some kind of research before you try and post stuff like this
I think he was trying to say that Xurkitree hard counters Primarina and outclasses Raikou, and he just got "former" and "latter" mixed up. I mean, it's still wrong, since Xurkitree doesn't "hard counter" Primarina (that would imply that it can actually take a hit from Primarina, which it can't), but it makes a bit more sense.
 
I think he was trying to say that Xurkitree hard counters Primarina and outclasses Raikou. He just got "former" and "latter" mixed up. I mean, it's still wrong, since Xurkitree can't take a hit from Primarina at all, but it makes a bit more sense.
Either way, Xurkitree doesn;t outclass Raikou because Raikou is noticeably faster and bulkier Then Xurkitree anyway, so thats wrong. And i kinda assumed that too, but decided to just of with what they said because it's hilariously wrong no matter how you read it

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 349-412 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Xurkitree: 301-355 (98 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

amazing hard counter isn't it?
 
Raikou and Xurkitree function completely different from each other, and Raikou arguably is better due to his speed and all around better stats bar SpA, but this still doesn't change the fact that despite sharing a typing they in no way do the same thing. Why was this even brought up in conversation? Detracting from this weird conversation, I'd like to detract to another Pokemon.

It's time for Infernape to jump in a flaming tree and swing from B+ to A-

Let's start off with Infernape himself. Mixed 104 / 104 attacking stats combined with 108 speed and a fantastic offensive typing in Fire / Fighting isn't a joke, and its STAB moves (such as Flare Blitz and Close Combat, along with priority STAB Mach Punch) allow it to deal with the ever omnipresent Scizor with ease, along with other threats such as Buzzwole, Cobalion, Krookodile, M-Bee, Terrakion, Celebi, Mamoswine and others (and somehow if Weavile ever ends up back in this tier). Even Pokemon that outspeed it and can OHKO it have a hard time switching into it simply due to the fantastic coverage / utility moves that it has in its arsenal, including but not limited to; Earthquake (Handles Raikou), Endeavor (good in combination with STAB priority), Fake Out (for leads), Poison Jab (for Faeries / keeping it from being complete Primarina bait), Shadow Claw (niche), Stone Edge (EdgeQuake coverage that nails stuff like Mega Aero and M-Pidg on the switch in), Thunder Punch (More accurate answer to both Prima and M-Aero), U-Turn for mobility and to nail Latias on the switch out, and Vacuum Wave for Special STAB priority. Not to mention it has access to both Swords Dance, and Nasty Plot.

Long story short, it's fast, hits relatively hard, is unpredictable, has a wealth of options, and the metagame continues to be kind to it. I think it should jump up a rank.
 

SPACE FORCE meeps

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in regards to raikou - i do believe it should drop down to b+. the metagame shifts prior to the tier shifts and the tier shifts simply have not been friendly to raikou. mega swampert is a solid check to raikou, taking even +1 breakneck blitzes from raikou with no hp investment (has low chance to be koed with rocks up though), and raikou seldom carry hp grass. while regular swampert checks raikou as well, it's a matter of mega swampert having a larger impact on the tier which damages raikou's viability. mega steelix is also an excellent counter to raikou, mamoswine can handle subcm variants, and mega beedrill can pressure raikou out, otherwise it'll be taking around 75% from u-turn and beedrill provides the opponent healthy momentum. in regards to metagame shifts prior to the tier changes, the rise of cm roost latias definitely damaged raikou's offensive capabilities, as latias can handle anything but z shadow ball raikou, and setup effectively. krookodile has also gained more popularity, particularly scarf variants, which can effective revenge kill raikou; krookodile can also switch-in against raikou rather effectively taking hp ice somewhat comfortably. in regards to the comparison with xurkitree, raikou does have some nice advantages in that special attackers have more difficulty in revenge killing it (particularly hydreigon) given its ability to boost special defense with calm mind, and it has an easier time setting up due to better natural bulk, but in regards to pure wallbreaking abilities, xurkitree is definitely more desirable with a much higher special attack, a more potent boosting move and access to grass knot/energy ball. xurkitree has the ability to take down pokemon that handle raikou more effectively, since it can do solid damage against hippowdon, swampert, mega steelix, amoonguss, celebi, etc, thus it can break down balanced and stall teams more effectively.

hawlucha should move to b+. this is on the basis of clefable leaving the tier, i don't think i need to explain much on hawlucha's sweeping abilities in general since it was discussed in the previous vr thread. clefable was simply one of the best and most common threats in the tier. with its departure, hawlucha has an easier time setting up and sweeping, as one of its best counters is no longer in the tier. while sylveon is still solid vs hawlucha, but it is simply not as good and splashable as clefable overall, and thus it is a much less prominent threat compared to clefable.

chandelure should rise to b- to b. with the solid presence buzzwole exerts on the tier, chandelure emerges as one of the top offensive checks for buzzwole, as they rather rarely carry earthquake or stone edge. i've personally been using sub cm chandelure, and it's rather nice in its ability to exploit buzzwole, potentially setting up substitutes and calm mind, while also being able to ko buzzwole through sub with inflitrator, generating solid momentum if chandelure is behind a substitute. it's also a nice set for poking holes against bulkier teams, as it can setup on some pokemon such as cobalion, amoonguss, sylveon, blissey, scizor etc. and potentially nab a couple kills, particularly against teams without hydreigon. the set does has drawbacks, as it struggles to get any opportunities to setup against more offensive teams where multiple pokemon can ko and outspeed chandelure scarf chandelure has also been used to some extent, which again is also nice against buzzwole, but it is still slower than mega aero, mega sceptile, and mega beedrill, it still serves as a suitable revenge killer for pokemon like latias, scizor, cobalion, etc. with its raw power.
 
Alolan Muk B+ -> B or B- rank - I understand why people think Alolan Muk is good, it seems solid on paper yet, not good in practice. I really don't like using this mon due to how easily it gets worn down. After reading up on Alolan Muk stuff in OU to get a good understanding on it's general weaknesses (before using it), I found the weakness that stood out the most is the fact that it gets worn down too easy and you're never sure how much EVs you should put into SpDf and Atk to avoid this. In UU, it remains true. I've laddered up and got into 1400s-1500s territory with Kink's team and found myself hating Alolan-Muk being on the team. Alolan-Muk gets 2HKO'd-3HKO'd by Primarina so, you can't switch into that behomoth that well at all (Prime can just switch out easily too). Raikou can just volt switch out into a threat that handles A-Muk like Krookodile. Latias just needs some minor chip to knock out A-Muk with +1 Z Draco. Mega Pidgeot only needs 1 U-turn chip & rocks up to start wrecking house with +1 Hurricane (confusion hax sucks too). Togekiss obviously t-waves on switch and kills it slowly with air slash (or switch out and come back later with a nasty plot up on switch-in to kill quicker with air slash flinches). Nidoking + NidoQueen obviously shit on it. And the few mons that A-Muk are good against, Hydreigon or Krookodile just do a better job at checking them anyways. Alolan-Muk requires a lot of team support as it finds itself being very weak to top threats, as well as, hating hazards.
Another thing to point out is that Cobalion, Scizor, and Mega Steelix come in pretty easily and set up hazards or swords dance respectfully. Now sure, A-Muk has fire blast but, it also wants Shadow Sneak as priority due to it's low speed tier (sneak is also good for finishing off Latias since knock off doesn't OHKO Latias if it carries a z item) and Fire Blast doesn't even do that much to Mega Steelix anyways.
Venomoth B -> B+ rank - A really great mon that has gotten better through the shift. Venomoth's STABs have gotten really good and are very anti-meta. Venomoth definitely enjoys sucker punch Bisharp being out of the tier as it doesn't have to worry about it's set-up being stopped so easily. Choice Scarf Krook and Choice Scarf Hydreigon are obviously very problematic for Venomoth but, substitute (especially on switch) is good counter play for this on Venomoth.
 

pokemonisfun

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I completely agree with everything meeps just said. the only thing that I will add is that Chandelure can run surprisingly strong Hex sets too. I really think the Substitute sets are the main contributors to Chandelure's viablity; the Scarf set is just too slow to be an effective Scarfer.

Bewear I think has to drop because of Buzzwole, which almost completely outclasses it. Buzzwole is stronger, faster, and bulkier against important moves (like Earthquake). All Bewear has is a (much) better matchup against Aerodactyl and a Normal typing, which is less helpful now that Gengar is gone. Also, Bewear was ranked before Flame Orb Conkeldurr was popular, which also gives big competition to Bewear for pretty obvious reasons. Bewear should be unranked or somewhere in the depths of C/C- (which I think is too crowded so just unrank it).

I know we dropped Swellow a little bit already, but honestly I am not opposed to finishing the job and seeing it unranked as the competition from Pidgeot is just too much.
Really the only major pro Swellow has going for it is the lack of Mega Stone, that's not really enough for it to be ranked in my opinion.

Similarly, Feraligatr is a usable Pokemon by itself, but right now has too much competition from Mega Swampert which has a lot of advantages including a better typing and stats. I'm thinking we should unrank Feraligatr as well.
 

Adaam

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I agree or have no opinion on most of the recent discussion except for Feraligatr. I've found Feraligatr to be quite good in this meta actually. It's a physical wallbreaker that does not care about Buzzwole, Scizor, Mamo, Quagsire (it's forced in a long cycle of Recovers if it switches in), M-Steelix, Swampert, and Slowbro, all of which are common slap-ons used to switch into or revenge physical threats. In comparison to M-Swampert, Feraligatr does not take up a mega slot, which is pretty big as Gatr + M-Shark or even Gatr + Mega Swampert form potent overloading cores. Feraligatr also has Swords Dance, Dark coverage, priority, and immediate power for Water STAB, all of which combine to give Feraligatr a strong enough niche to stay ranked.


Cobalion could also use a drop to A. June's shift has been horrible for it, with Buzzwole countering all but niche lure sets like SD Shattered Psyche or SSSS. Defensive Fairies are not prominent anymore with Clef leaving the tier, M-Swampert, Pidgeot, and Sceptile can either revenge kill or stomach a hit and OHKO Cobalion, and it's forced to run Shuca if teams want to use it as a M-Beedrill or Mamoswine check.


This might be controversial, but M-Swampert could easily rise to S imo. The viability of Grass types are at an all-time low with Scizor, M-Pidgeot, M-Aero, M-Beedrill, Klefki, Latias, Hydreigon, and many other pokemons' combined presences in the tier. The RD set is a nightmare for offensive teams to face due it's amazing resilience to priority and extreme ease in setting up. I don't think a single pokemon can OHKO it without a Grass-type move. The best offensive checks are floaty Dragons, Celebi, and Buzzwole, and of these, only Celebi can OHKO it while the rest take a lot of damage from +1 Waterfalls or Ice Punch. M-Swampert does all while defensively checking a litany of threats, most notably Scizor, M-Aero, Cobalion, Krookodile, Gliscor, Raikou, M-Sharpedo, Mamoswine, Klefki, Nidos, and Infernape.

Lastly, Muk is garbage, both literally and in terms of usefulness. The fact that you lose to CM Dragonium Latias without Shadow Sneak is pathetic for a Latias "counter," but if you don't run Fire Blast you're set up fodder for Scizor, Cobalion, Lucario. I'd put it in C+ but would settle for B/B-.
 
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A+ -> S

This Pokemon is an absolute monster capable of walling almost every physical attacker in the game. It's offensive presence makes it a huge threat as well. Currently, I'm with the firm belief that if you are not playing with this Pokemon on your team right now, then you are playing at a disadvantage.
 

Moutemoute

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I fully support the nomination of Cookees with Buzzwole which rises to S rank.
Buzzwole is probably one the most splashable Pokemon in all over the tier. It's natural amazing bulk allows him to check so much thing on this side (like Sharpedo-Mega, Scizor, other Buzzwole lmao, Mamoswine, Cobalion, Weavile etc..) while not being passive like other physical wall (hey there Hippowdon). Buzzwole in on the main reason that running Flying type / flying coverage is almost an obligation.


Buzzwole @ Leftovers / Fightinium Z / Rockium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 200 HP / 204 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Life / Roost
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch / Stone Edge

This is the set I mostly used and it's kinda amazing. When Buzzwole is under a substitute it's an amazing threat. I'm a huge fan of Fightium Z cuz it allows Buzzwole to put a massive pressure on a lot of Pokemon as u can see :

204+ Atk Buzzwole All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 294-346 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
204+ Atk Buzzwole All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 233-274 (77.4 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
204+ Atk Buzzwole All-Out Pummeling (200 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 282-333 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

Darksafadao

best of the second options
A+ -> A Every move Krookodile makes allows Buzzwole to set up, and we know how bad it is. It is also being outclassed as a pursuit trapper by Weavile.
 

Rabia

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A+ -> A Every move Krookodile makes allows Buzzwole to set up, and we know how bad it is. It is also being outclassed as a pursuit trapper by Weavile.
Not to mention the rise of Hawlucha in the current meta makes Krookodile an even riskier option to run; any move you lock yourself into gives the bird free set-up. Though I do feel Krookodile still has solid viability even with the shifting meta; it is one of the best answers to Xuriktree, still provides fantastic utility through Knock Off, Pursuit, Intimidate, and an electric immunity, and has really solid coverage. That said, I feel its effectiveness is still reflected with a drop to A.
 
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