[SPOILERS] Battle Spot in Gen 7 Discussion - News, Speculation & Leaks

Pyritie

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Does all of this mean that there aren't gonna be any new Mega Evolutions on Sun & Moon?
We don't know yet.

But it's probably unlikely since there isn't much time left before the games are out, and they only just confirmed that megas are still in the game. Megas have a lot of advertising potential so if there were new ones, I think they would've shown them off by now.
 

Theorymon

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So as some of you may know, Mega Kangaskhan got hit with the nerfstick, with the 2nd hit doing 25% of the original damage instead of 50% now. I'm going to post some calcs against common Battle Spot Singles walls with a 168 base attack Mega Kangaskhan without parental bond, which is close to the new boost.


+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 208-247 (91.6 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 174-205 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 168-199 (87.9 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 141-166 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 216-253 (104.3 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 178-211 (85.9 - 101.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

I should also note that Mega Kangaskhan fails to OHKO Porygon2 and Cresselia after Stealth Rock if it goes Jolly.

Anyways, my initial impression is that: Mega Kangaskhan is probably still gonna be a big threat, but its hard to deny that its gotten quite a power decrease, maybe to the point where Mega Gengar might take it over as the most dominant Mega Pokemon consistently.

There are probably a lot of interesting edge cases against less defensive Pokemon in Battle Spot Singles and Doubles, so I'd like for people to post them if they find them!

Edit: made the calcs more accurate by making Mega Kangaskhan have 168 base attack, thanks for the heads up kamikaze !
 
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My immediate reaction to this yesterday was that higher bulk, lower speed, and an increase in Power-Up Punch sets were going to become the new norm in Doubles. Double-Edge is still ridiculous, but I see an increase in Return and boosting moves. I simply see more players investing into Mega Kangaskhan's defenses, already part of what made it a dominant Mega, as the most prominent effect of this change in Doubles is losing quite a few relevant Low Kick KOs.

That means you may get a few more chances to KO it before it becomes a crazy threat, but with the loss of Low Kick vs. Low Kick match-ups forcing that move and higher Attack and Speed, I hope the meta's ready for one of the most threatening single-target setup-mons around.

I'll be very curious to see if there's a good spread-attacking non-Mega Pokemon to put it next to as offensive support, a la VGC '16, as I think that'd become a go-to archetype if that's the case. And I'd be happy to use Kangaskhan in that capacity. Too bad Sylveon needs speed control.

EDIT -- Or potentially a straight-up copy of its VGC '16 performance with Jolly Inner Focus, as its bulk is already quite considerable when you remove the fear of direct Kangaskhan vs. Kangaskhan KOs. Then again, without the need to outpseed pretty much every top threat by a single point, and with boosting being the new norm, I wouldn't be surprised if at least a little defensive investment is optimal.
 
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Demantoid

APMS Founder
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Some calcs that are more relevant for doubles

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 186-220 (102.7 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 152-180 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 92 HP / 116 Def Sylveon: 180-214 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 98.4% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 92 HP / 116 Def Sylveon: 163-193 (89.5 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 157-187 (102.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 129-153 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Mega Gardevoir: 180-214 (102.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 116 Def Mega Gardevoir: 150-177 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 194-230 (116.1 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 158-188 (94.6 - 112.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 190-226 (113.7 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 158-186 (94.6 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 176-209 (86.2 - 102.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 228 HP / 12 Def Azumarill: 145-172 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 150-177 (67.8 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 123-145 (55.6 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

cant say

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So paralysis has been nerfed to reduce speed by only 50% but keeps the 25% chance of full paralysis happening. This really bothers me, since all the best T-Wave users (sans Thundurus) are pretty slow. For example, T-Wave Ferro is very likely not viable anymore as it still won't be outspeeding anything. We're also going to have a harder time checking Mega Blaziken and Mega Salamence since those things are so fast, they only need two speed boosts to be back to normal. So things like Porygon2, Slowbro, and Chansey aren't going to like this...

And if you thought their "balancing" of Mega Kang was done; well we just found out that Power-Up Punch is no longer a TM! So when the Gen 7 "pentagon" rule is in effect Kang will be almost useless in my opinion. A weaker version of Kang that can't boost? Who will he using that in favour of other megas?
 
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ethan06

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So paralysis has been nerfed to reduce speed by only 50% but keeps the chance of full paralysis from happening. This really bothers me, since all the best T-Wave users (sans Thundurus) are pretty slow. For example, T-Wave Ferro is very likely not viable anymore as it still won't be outspeeding anything. We're also going to have a harder time checking Mega Blaziken and Mega Salamence since those things are so fast, they only need two speed boosts to be back to normal. So things like Porygon2, Slowbro, and Chansey aren't going to like this...

And if you thought their "balancing" of Mega Kang was done; well we just found out that Power-Up Punch is no longer a TM! So when the Gen 7 "pentagon" rule is in effect Kang will be almost useless in my opinion. A weaker version of Kang that can't boost? Who will he using that in favour of other megas?
on paralysis: thunder wave's accuracy has /apparently/ been dropped from 100 to 90, so that gives a little bit of an out if it turns out to be true. didn't keep swagger from changing games though, and adding another layer of hax to an already pretty haxy move seems ill-advised :s what with all of the new anti-priority techs that the game now has, paralysis may become more and more important for speed control so these nerfs may well end up making blaziken in particular very powerful indeed, so i'm not sure how i feel about these changes.

as for mega kang, i don't really see it getting much weaker - most kang sets don't run power-up punch anyway and we're only losing one-sixth of kang's overall power without any of the "utility" from moves like secret power and ice beam and rock slide (assuming secret power stays as a tm - fingers crossed it stays in oras). main thing i can see is that things like conkeldurr and aegislash will have an easier time checking kang, and a handful of ev spreads, like helmet serperior, will become a bit less extreme. might just be enough to knock kang off the top perch but i don't see it dropping off the map any time soon.

i'm really excited to try mimikyu. if this gets thunder wave, or even glare as it fits with flavour, then disguise would make it one of the format's best emergency sweep stoppers, even with the paralysis nerf. it's a ghost-type so will-o-wisp seems likely, so a paralysis move might not even be required. it certainly has the typing to soft check common speed boosters like blaziken, gyarados, salamence... aside from anything else, it's guaranteed a free hit against pretty much everything (depends on mold breaker interactivity) and it's got three immunities to boot. as long as it's special attack is higher than 100ish it should be really good, and i'm trying it either way so w/e
 

cant say

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on paralysis: thunder wave's accuracy has /apparently/ been dropped from 100 to 90, so that gives a little bit of an out if it turns out to be true. didn't keep swagger from changing games though, and adding another layer of hax to an already pretty haxy move seems ill-advised :s what with all of the new anti-priority techs that the game now has, paralysis may become more and more important for speed control so these nerfs may well end up making blaziken in particular very powerful indeed, so i'm not sure how i feel about these changes.

as for mega kang, i don't really see it getting much weaker - most kang sets don't run power-up punch anyway and we're only losing one-sixth of kang's overall power without any of the "utility" from moves like secret power and ice beam and rock slide (assuming secret power stays as a tm - fingers crossed it stays in oras). main thing i can see is that things like conkeldurr and aegislash will have an easier time checking kang, and a handful of ev spreads, like helmet serperior, will become a bit less extreme. might just be enough to knock kang off the top perch but i don't see it dropping off the map any time soon.

i'm really excited to try mimikyu. if this gets thunder wave, or even glare as it fits with flavour, then disguise would make it one of the format's best emergency sweep stoppers, even with the paralysis nerf. it's a ghost-type so will-o-wisp seems likely, so a paralysis move might not even be required. it certainly has the typing to soft check common speed boosters like blaziken, gyarados, salamence... aside from anything else, it's guaranteed a free hit against pretty much everything (depends on mold breaker interactivity) and it's got three immunities to boot. as long as it's special attack is higher than 100ish it should be really good, and i'm trying it either way so w/e
I haven't heard anything about the accuracy drop, but if that's true then it's even worse!

As for the "most Kang don't use Power-Up Punch" arguement; PuP is used on 41% of Kang, that's a lot. Sure, there's 59% that aren't using it, but of that 59%, probably about 30% are Fake Out + 3 attacks, and 20% are mixed attackers with Ice Beam. This means that compared to other sets, PuP sets are the most common build. So Kang is losing its most common (and imo best) set. That surely makes it worse.

I'm glad you brought up Secret Power because I forgot about that; it's gone as well. This means Kang is also losing its most common STAB move. Yes, Secret Power overtook Double-Edge last season! The meta has become so hostile to Kang that people are opting for nearly half the damage output just to avoid recoil (para is handy yeah). But the thing that made Secret Power actually usable was, yep you guessed it, getting to +2 with Power-Up Punch.

We can also look at the leaked Alolan Regional Dex and see what Kang will struggle with now. The first thing that pops out to me is Porygon2, without the threat of PuP and decreased damage output thanks to the P Bond nerf, everyone's favourite duck has become an amazing check now that Double-Edge can no longer 2HKO. Even Hammer Arm will struggle to 2HKO... Skarmory is even better since it doesn't have to worry about PuP + Fire Punch anymore (well at least until bank mons are allowed but they'll be banned again soon enough), and with the P Bond nerf it can take Fire Blasts better and even go specially defensive to avoid the 2HKO if for some crazy reason Fire Blast becomes super popular. The point Nelson Tangela brought up about Scrappy Kang being able to fight through Mega Sableye with PuP + Facade no long applies so now Sab is a guaranteed counter. Meanwhile, things like Gengar and Salamence remain nerf-free so I think it's finally time that Kang's usage will slip.
 
I haven't heard anything about the accuracy drop, but if that's true then it's even worse!

As for the "most Kang don't use Power-Up Punch" arguement; PuP is used on 41% of Kang, that's a lot. Sure, there's 59% that aren't using it, but of that 59%, probably about 30% are Fake Out + 3 attacks, and 20% are mixed attackers with Ice Beam. This means that compared to other sets, PuP sets are the most common build. So Kang is losing its most common (and imo best) set. That surely makes it worse.

I'm glad you brought up Secret Power because I forgot about that; it's gone as well. This means Kang is also losing its most common STAB move. Yes, Secret Power overtook Double-Edge last season! The meta has become so hostile to Kang that people are opting for nearly half the damage output just to avoid recoil (para is handy yeah). But the thing that made Secret Power actually usable was, yep you guessed it, getting to +2 with Power-Up Punch.

We can also look at the leaked Alolan Regional Dex and see what Kang will struggle with now. The first thing that pops out to me is Porygon2, without the threat of PuP and decreased damage output thanks to the P Bond nerf, everyone's favourite duck has become an amazing check now that Double-Edge can no longer 2HKO. Even Hammer Arm will struggle to 2HKO... Skarmory is even better since it doesn't have to worry about PuP + Fire Punch anymore (well at least until bank mons are allowed but they'll be banned again soon enough), and with the P Bond nerf it can take Fire Blasts better and even go specially defensive to avoid the 2HKO if for some crazy reason Fire Blast becomes super popular. The point Nelson Tangela brought up about Scrappy Kang being able to fight through Mega Sableye with PuP + Facade no long applies so now Sab is a guaranteed counter. Meanwhile, things like Gengar and Salamence remain nerf-free so I think it's finally time that Kang's usage will slip.
Keep in mind its possible that a lot of the pokemon that cause Kang to run Secret Power might not even be available prebank, like Cress and Cune. Sure there will probably be other mons running helmet in their place but they may not be as dominant. So losing secret power for a bit may not even be all that bad.

And I dont think we need to freak out about Kanga losing all this stuff cause that's only going to be temporary. Once bank comes around people can use PuP & secret power all they want.
 

Theorymon

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Something to note is that there will probably be more available Pokemon prebank than the alola Dex via the postgame. For example, XY had a lot of stuff that was only in the friend safari. I imagine we won't fully know what will be allowed in the first season until a bit after the game comes out.
 

cant say

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Keep in mind its possible that a lot of the pokemon that cause Kang to run Secret Power might not even be available prebank, like Cress and Cune. Sure there will probably be other mons running helmet in their place but they may not be as dominant. So losing secret power for a bit may not even be all that bad.

And I dont think we need to freak out about Kanga losing all this stuff cause that's only going to be temporary. Once bank comes around people can use PuP & secret power all they want.
From the official site:

Note: In addition to the Pokémon obtainable in Pokémon Sun and Pokémon Moon, Pokémon obtainable in Pokémon X, Pokémon Y, Pokémon Omega Ruby, and Pokémon Alpha Sapphire will also become eligible to use under the regulations for Single and Double Rating Battles for a set time after the update to Pokémon Bank in January 2017.
So unlike with XY where the pentagon clause was never introduced and you could use transfers up until now, SM battle spot will introduce their "pentagon" clause (isn't it like a + now?) after maybe a season or two after bank updates. So you better make use of your Secret Power + PuP Kang's as much as you can during that window!
 
I've got a feeling that Kommo-o is going to be a bit of a big deal in this gen. Dragon/Fighting with Hyper Voice immunity is a great start.

And I reckon the pentagon-equivalent clause will begin next summer.
 
On the note of introducing a Gen7 pentagon/cross rule, if SuMo doesn't have access to non-breedables like Zapdos and Entei then we'd be denied a whole bunch of mons. I'd expect the Gen6+7 rule to remain for some time until a release like ORAS, with all the legendaries, happens and you can trade them back to SuMo.
 
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I actually hope that Kang will not get PuP in Gen 7. And this is all because of this move, the Monkey (I can't remember the name atm but it wasn't the footballplaying one) can use. It makes a Pokemon use a Move the secons time in one turn. This means, you can Pup with Kang twice a turn. +4 in ONE TURN! And that while inflicting damage. Honestly, who would need Belly Drum anymore?!

Edit: The mon(key) is called Oranguru and the move ist Instructor
 
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From the official site:

So unlike with XY where the pentagon clause was never introduced and you could use transfers up until now, SM battle spot will introduce their "pentagon" clause (isn't it like a + now?) after maybe a season or two after bank updates. So you better make use of your Secret Power + PuP Kang's as much as you can during that window!
What makes you think it will only be as short as a season or two? I'd imagine with bank just released they would want to allow gen 6 pokes for a while. Like with ORAS, i think the only reason they actually did include the pentagon rule was because you actually could catch every usable legend in the game, and i think thats also the same reason there wasnt a pentagon rule in XY. Unless we can catch every usable legend in SuMo i think we will be allowed Gen 6 + 7 pokes for the majority of SuMo's lifetime.
 

cant say

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What makes you think it will only be as short as a season or two? I'd imagine with bank just released they would want to allow gen 6 pokes for a while. Like with ORAS, i think the only reason they actually did include the pentagon rule was because you actually could catch every usable legend in the game, and i think thats also the same reason there wasnt a pentagon rule in XY. Unless we can catch every usable legend in SuMo i think we will be allowed Gen 6 + 7 pokes for the majority of SuMo's lifetime.
"Set time" to me sounds like "limited time" which feels like 1-2, maybe a few seasons. If they're going to allow transfers for the majority of SM's lifetime then I feel like them stating "a set time" to be kinda pointless.
 
I haven't heard anything about the accuracy drop, but if that's true then it's even worse!

As for the "most Kang don't use Power-Up Punch" arguement; PuP is used on 41% of Kang, that's a lot. Sure, there's 59% that aren't using it, but of that 59%, probably about 30% are Fake Out + 3 attacks, and 20% are mixed attackers with Ice Beam. This means that compared to other sets, PuP sets are the most common build. So Kang is losing its most common (and imo best) set. That surely makes it worse.

I'm glad you brought up Secret Power because I forgot about that; it's gone as well. This means Kang is also losing its most common STAB move. Yes, Secret Power overtook Double-Edge last season! The meta has become so hostile to Kang that people are opting for nearly half the damage output just to avoid recoil (para is handy yeah). But the thing that made Secret Power actually usable was, yep you guessed it, getting to +2 with Power-Up Punch.

We can also look at the leaked Alolan Regional Dex and see what Kang will struggle with now. The first thing that pops out to me is Porygon2, without the threat of PuP and decreased damage output thanks to the P Bond nerf, everyone's favourite duck has become an amazing check now that Double-Edge can no longer 2HKO. Even Hammer Arm will struggle to 2HKO... Skarmory is even better since it doesn't have to worry about PuP + Fire Punch anymore (well at least until bank mons are allowed but they'll be banned again soon enough), and with the P Bond nerf it can take Fire Blasts better and even go specially defensive to avoid the 2HKO if for some crazy reason Fire Blast becomes super popular. The point Nelson Tangela brought up about Scrappy Kang being able to fight through Mega Sableye with PuP + Facade no long applies so now Sab is a guaranteed counter. Meanwhile, things like Gengar and Salamence remain nerf-free so I think it's finally time that Kang's usage will slip.
Is this the whole pokedex? Also, since we can create our own online competitions, are we allowed to post them?
 

cant say

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Is this the whole pokedex? Also, since we can create our own online competitions, are we allowed to post them?
The whole Alola Pokedex, yes. We haven't really discussed the whole "create your own online competition" thing yet, but I think we'll just need people to ask for approval before posting.
 
The whole Alola Pokedex, yes. We haven't really discussed the whole "create your own online competition" thing yet, but I think we'll just need people to ask for approval before posting.
Okay, just one last thing: Since the ultra beasts are in the pokedex, does that make them Pokemon?
 
Okay, just one last thing: Since the ultra beasts are in the pokedex, does that make them Pokemon?
There's not enough information to tell right now. They might be, they might not be. All we know is that they're catchable, presumably with a special pokeball made just for them.
 
ok so, can we talk about the timer thing more? If there's a video that illustrates it can someone share it please?

Based on what the OP says, it sounds like whoever clicks their move the fastest has the upper hand. What if one of the players is actually dumb like me and needs more time to decide on moves without the intention of timer-stalling just simply thinking through my options and consequences (and turns ahead)?
Also, an idiot can win by having something like protect if say a player like me thinks through decisions a lot and runs outta my 10 minute timer only for the opponent to just steal a game they were losing decisively otherwise.

If it is how I think it is from what y'all have already said, this nerfs me tremendously. i might just have to stop having cart competitive pokemon goals
 
So paralysis has been nerfed to reduce speed by only 50% but keeps the chance of full paralysis from happening.
Just to clarify, are you saying the chance of full paralysis will be zero? If so paraflinch Togekiss is further nerfed:

chance of breaking through paraflinch in Gen 6 (factoring in air slash accuracy):
.95*.40*.75+.05*.75 = 32.25%

chance of breaking through paraflinch in Gen 7 (assuming 0% full para chance, and that air slash accuracy doesn't change):
.95*.40*1+.05*1 = 43%

As for the 50% speed drop, a bulky Togekiss with no speed investment will now have to worry about everything above 200 (see http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/6063189/), ...like mega Salamence and Charizard X after dragon dance
 

cant say

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Just to clarify, are you saying the chance of full paralysis will be zero? If so paraflinch Togekiss is further nerfed:

chance of breaking through paraflinch in Gen 6 (factoring in air slash accuracy):
.95*.40*.75+.05*.75 = 32.25%

chance of breaking through paraflinch in Gen 7 (assuming 0% full para chance, and that air slash accuracy doesn't change):
.95*.40*1+.05*1 = 43%

As for the 50% speed drop, a bulky Togekiss with no speed investment will now have to worry about everything above 200 (see http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/6063189/), ...like mega Salamence and Charizard X after dragon dance
Yeah the word "from" did not make sense in my sentence, I edited it out. Full paralysis apparently works the same.
 
F I E L D E F F E C T S

What do you all think of the new emphasis on terrains? Will you use them? How well do you think they'll do in the Gen 7 meta?

Personally, I can't wait to use my standard Heracross/Cresselia/Heatran team, but now I'll have access to Psychic Terrain, which negates priority moves. This will be a huge asset to my Heracross, as now it won't get sniped by Talonflame or stalled by Fake Out mons.
 

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