STABmons v2 Viability Ranks 「B / C RANK DISCUSSION」

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Then what's the point of ranks if everything is in order from most to least? We might as well just have a giant list with no rank in between. Plus I don't think I can handle having them listed out of alphabetical order.
So you know which is best in that specific rank? You're missing the point. You don't rank the Pokemon in order of viability overall, that's the point of ranks; however, you rank them in order of rank in just that group. You rank A+ in terms of how they perform versus A+. Does that make sense? And I mean, what's the big deal with being non-alphabetical? Preparing for threats would be so much easier if this was in order of what to account for more than others perhaps.
 
Personally, I think the best rankings are just S, A, B, C, D(nu, do not use). No +/-. Just looks a lot cleaner to me. As for the discussion of ranking within subranks, I have no preference either way. It seems like a lot of unnecessary work though.
It's not unnecessary, but it is work. It more accurately describes the viability of each Pokemon and does put the ranks in a more orderly fashion.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
It's not unnecessary, but it is work. It more accurately describes the viability of each Pokemon and does put the ranks in a more orderly fashion.
In my opinion it subjectively describes the personal preference for each Pokemon and puts the ranks in a more disordered fashion.

The whole point of making broad categories like S,A,B,C etc is because it's much easier to get a general feel of how viable a pokemon is than to compare two closely viable pokemon with each other and determine which one is better. Viability rankings are already subjective enough, but the broader categories alleviate much of that subjectivity. Ranking each pokemon against each other is impossible without some sort of objective metric, and even then would be extremely difficult.
 
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I believe Toxicroak is a C Rank threat. Can live on Oblivion Wing from Thundurus, so that's cool, but besides that it offers a Water-type immunity, great power and a powerful priority, and is somewhat unexpected. Coil / Gunk Shot / Drain Punch / Sucker Punch is awesome, and it forms great with Landorus-T. Walls Clefable, non-Psychic using Slowbro, Terrakion, HP Fire Mega Diancie, and a ton of other stuff. Still has glaring weaknesses in its subpar typing, lack of a presence until a few boosts, and overall "meh" factor. Still think it should be ranked though.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
In my opinion it subjectively describes the personal preference for each Pokemon and puts the ranks in a more disordered fashion.

The whole point of making broad categories like S,A,B,C etc is because it's much easier to get a general feel of how viable a pokemon is than to compare two closely viable pokemon with each other and determine which one is better. Viability rankings are already subjective enough, but the broader categories alleviate much of that subjectivity. Ranking each pokemon against each other is impossible without some sort of objective metric, and even then would be extremely difficult.
not only this, but also with each ban/drop, varying pokemon may become more or less viable depending on what the conditions are, like for example, if zekrom was let into the tier, thundurus would become less viable then landorus T, and kyurem would raise higher then the both of them...THEN next week, suddenly zek starts running mixed with draco, meaning lando spikes down in viability. it would require MAD knowledge of the metagame to be able to specificly pinpoint viabilities. and it would be too opinionated to actually have a consistant awnser, like kit said.
 
Tank. (Aggron) @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Earthquake/Rock Slide/Stone Edge/ Filler
- Ice Punch
After one boost, it outspeeds a mega char y with max investments and can OHKO it with rock slide, or alternatively ice punch a lando. it has enough bulk for it to be able to set up one or two depending on the opposing mon, and then one shot it. Honestly, Rock slide is the best move for coverage. I am loving this set.

It can also be ran as a defensive wall with Twave, King's Shield, Stealth Rock, and Iron Head
I think Mega Aggron should be at least B rank. (Alternatively, you could take out shift gear and give it diamond storm, meteor mash, EQ, Ice Punch.)
A battle.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-274064233
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Sorry for the delay! I'll update this post with the B-Rank list - just posting this to let people know I haven't forgotten!

EDIT: Here it is. OP has been updated (in alphabetical order)

B+

Gardevoir (Mega)
Celebi
Raikou
Hippowdon
Starmie
Stoutland
Alakazam (Mega)
Magnezone
Zapdos
Skarmory
Sceptile (Mega)
Manectric (Mega)
Latias (Mega)
Latias
Rotom-Heat
Manaphy
Klefki
Tyranitar (Mega)
Beedrill (Mega)
Suicune
Latios
Braviary

B
Venusaur (Mega)
Pidgeot (Mega)
Slowbro
Slowking
Snorlax
Gliscor
Crawdaunt
Whimsicott
Bisharp
Krookodile
Hydreigon
Garchomp (Mega)
Togekiss
Pinsir (Mega)
Swampert (Mega)
Lucario
Rhyperior
Crawdaunt
Espeon
Mew


B-
Alakazam
Cloyster
Yanmega
Salamence
Metagross
Conkeldurr
Gothitelle
Heliolisk
Infernape
Chandelure
Empoleon
Cobalion
Tangrowth
Sharpedo (Mega)
Volcarona
Kabutops
Goodra

Breloom

I'll update this into the OP in alphabetical order. As for now, though, let's discuss what should move / shouldn't move around. Note that I think some of the B+ mons should go to A-, but at the moment I just wanted to get a solid ground for our B-Ranks. As for the other mentioned C-Rank mons - I'll get to C-Rank once we're completely done with B-Rank

so yea, discuss :]
 
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B+
Manectric (Mega) [Move to B. Speaking from personal experience, Mega Manectric is incredibly average and subpar. As an offensive attacker, it looks threatening, but it just can't back it up. Intimidate + high speed is great, and the Volt Switch is so good, but it suffers from really having nothing more than that. Overheat causes draw backs, Flamethrower is too weak, Hidden Power Ice is its only other coverage, etc. It does absolutely nothing against stall bar the occasional solid pivot, and it does well versus offense, but it's so mathcup based... And its opportunity cost is so high! Raikou has similar power, for example, and you get another Mega Evolution. It only fits specific cores, and the teambuilding with it is so specific that I don't think it should be B+. All these flaws make it a B Rank Pokemon, a very solid one, however.]
Beedrill (Mega) [Move to B. Coil + Gunk Shot no more. You only have to choose from Coil / Gunk Shot, or I mean Toxic Spikes / U-Turn is solid, but it's just kinda... meh. I don't really think I'm a fan of this one; however, I do see the merit in B+ if more people want it there.]


B
Togekiss [Is this worth B? I'm curious... Seems so nerfed. But then again, experience is more needed!]
Mew [Move to B+! This thing is so good! I love Mew! It's a great asset to every team it's on, it almost always fulfills its role unless a Mega Sableye is being used, and it has a nice defensive typing (bar Dark-type weakness) and should definitely be placed a rank higher.]


B-
Metagross [What does this have over Scizor? Outclassed as a Shift Gear user, defensive, Pursuit; the only viable option I can think of is Assault Vest and that doesn't seem in high demand honestly... But then again, I've only faced it once and I've not built a team with it. Would someone care to explain? I plan on building around it soon!]
Heliolisk [Seems subpar. I'd move it down a rank because it just... Doesn't sound good to me. Theorymon, of course, so I'll be testing this one. Has anyone used this? I am intrigued by it, but then again I am not sure~!]

Goodra [Goodra? Never seen this. Not in all of my time of STABmons. Of course that doesn't mean it is bad, but I would think I would've seen at least one, no? What does it do? Why am I using it?]

A few of my thoughts, though I need to use them more before I really speak aha... Hoping somebody will refute my points! ^.^

Otherwise, great job DreMZ :} <3.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
B+
Manectric (Mega) [Move to B. Speaking from personal experience, Mega Manectric is incredibly average and subpar. As an offensive attacker, it looks threatening, but it just can't back it up. Intimidate + high speed is great, and the Volt Switch is so good, but it suffers from really having nothing more than that. Overheat causes draw backs, Flamethrower is too weak, Hidden Power Ice is its only other coverage, etc. It does absolutely nothing against stall bar the occasional solid pivot, and it does well versus offense, but it's so mathcup based... And its opportunity cost is so high! Raikou has similar power, for example, and you get another Mega Evolution. It only fits specific cores, and the teambuilding with it is so specific that I don't think it should be B+. All these flaws make it a B Rank Pokemon, a very solid one, however.]
Beedrill (Mega) [Move to B. Coil + Gunk Shot no more. You only have to choose from Coil / Gunk Shot, or I mean Toxic Spikes / U-Turn is solid, but it's just kinda... meh. I don't really think I'm a fan of this one; however, I do see the merit in B+ if more people want it there.]


B
Togekiss [Is this worth B? I'm curious... Seems so nerfed. But then again, experience is more needed!]
Mew [Move to B+! This thing is so good! I love Mew! It's a great asset to every team it's on, it almost always fulfills its role unless a Mega Sableye is being used, and it has a nice defensive typing (bar Dark-type weakness) and should definitely be placed a rank higher.]


B-
Metagross [What does this have over Scizor? Outclassed as a Shift Gear user, defensive, Pursuit; the only viable option I can think of is Assault Vest and that doesn't seem in high demand honestly... But then again, I've only faced it once and I've not built a team with it. Would someone care to explain? I plan on building around it soon!]
Heliolisk [Seems subpar. I'd move it down a rank because it just... Doesn't sound good to me. Theorymon, of course, so I'll be testing this one. Has anyone used this? I am intrigued by it, but then again I am not sure~!]

Goodra [Goodra? Never seen this. Not in all of my time of STABmons. Of course that doesn't mean it is bad, but I would think I would've seen at least one, no? What does it do? Why am I using it?]

A few of my thoughts, though I need to use them more before I really speak aha... Hoping somebody will refute my points! ^.^

Otherwise, great job DreMZ :} <3.
i actually agree with every one of these. barring the few "nitpicks"

i agree that manectric is subpar and meh...im actually shocked its not UU/BL tbh, intimidate plus its speed is really good, but from my experience its just so subpar and actually kinda underwhelming, physical hits STILL dent it, and it just doesnt deal enough damage to be worth being ranked B+. also dont even mention electrify. its not worth a valuable moveslot.
edit: i should also point out, that this all also comes to play considering its a mega slot your giving up too.

beedrill is a odd case tbh, i feel like a lot of people have yet to see what it can do, it threatens so many switchins, that in almost every meta, it is more then capable of setting up tspikes on a predicted protect/u-turn, i cant tell you how many people overpredict out of fear with beedrill, and now that it has a 120 base power move to help threaten stuff? yeah, i can see why its B+. toxic spikes is actually a HUGE asset to offensive teams, and volturn in particular LOVES the ability to help weaken the counters/soften up the opposition. its one of those "risk/reward" scenarios, except one that bee wins 99% of the time just because of the sheer damage output it brings. sure, there might be a lot of priority in the meta, but beedrill only needs to be able to scare one pokemon to be able to put in CRAZY work. and in every meta ive used it in (including stabmons) its incredibly threatening. it also helps that beedrils "volt" partner usually handles like...every defogger in the meta. all in all, i feel like beedrill CAN be B+ worthy, but even just B sounds good.

togekiss: honestly. i think people kinda underestimate it now that it no longer gets geo/wing. are we not forgetting toge is like...the best cleric typing wise, capable of nasty plotting, and paraflinching...ON THE SAME SET? and this isnt even taking account to the OTHER possibilities it can have, moonblast, oblivion wing,geomancy if you are crazy, defog, tailwind, hurricane (ayy, paraflinchfusion), aeroblast (50% crit rate with super luck lelellel), toge is still a very threatening poke, and although it misses geo, i think its more...consistant annoyance with paraflinch is actually a lot scarier then geo. imo. id say the classic set of twave, nasty plot, air slash, and roost is probably worth B alone. its typing makes it incredibly hard to beat, especially with so many of its checks and counters being significantly weaker. and if it wants, it can forgo nasty plot/roost to deal with special attackers with moonblast. on a side note, back when geo wasn't popular, i actually used a AV set with moonblast and oblivion wing, and it actually was pretty decent. incredibly bulky, strong, and reliable recovery.

Mew...ive never seen or tried it out myself. its stallbreaker set sounds scary...walled by sableye...but otherwise good. same with its support set. potentially its offensive sets could be decent, gaining psystrike, psychoboost, and whatnot.

id actually rank it lower then B-, scizor/rachi is just...so much better. and meta doesnt...really stand out. ive always wanted to use meta, but like...what can it do that scizor/jirachi cant do better?

i guess it gets boomburst? shell smash maybe? honestly, it sounds pretty underwhelming. boomburst might just carry it up to B- tho

g-wait, who uses goodra? i guess it gets spacial rend...so it can rely on draco a bit less. its still an amazing tank and grass counter. so i guess B- COULD be okay. especially when it counters thundy with AV...actually...after looking at these calcs...
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Oblivion Wing vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 120-142 (31.4 - 37.2%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 193-228 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
i think goodra is better then i give it credit for.
 
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canno

formerly The Reptile
lets spark up some more discussion - which B+ mons should go to A+? On the flip side, which B- pokemon should go C+?

I would argue that Mega Manectric should stay B+. While it didn't gain much from STABmons, it sits in a great speed tier which lets it revenge kill a lot of things. It also has great coverage between Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Overheat, and Hidden Power Ice. Intimidate is also really cute. That said, if there's more people saying that it should go B I can move it there, but I think that its speed and coverage are being underplayed heavily.

Mega Bee doesn't have a lot of experimentation, but I think that B+ is still a good place for it. While priority is annoying for it, it can either gain 2 very powerful STAB in Megahorn and Gunk Shot or support the team with Toxic Spikes. B would be fine as well though.

Togekiss is still a really nice Pokemon, as it can run both a nasty wall set with a 60% change to drop SpDef everytime it drop a Moonblast or a deadly stall killing set with Nasty Plot, as it can now Moonblast Mega Sableye into another dimension. Geomancy is probably not viable anymore, but it could be a nice surprise set to whip out. Honestly I think I could bring this up to B+ or even A-, but I want to hear more opinions before I do.

I can see Mew in B+, as it is can be both a neat wallbreaker or a cute support mon. However, I think B is where it should go - it's not the best wallbreaker out there, and I don't think its the best defogger. It can run other sets but I feel like those are more niche sets. B is fine tbh, but I'd like to hear more opinions

The main thing Metagross has over Jirachi and Scizor in Shift Gear is Earthquake, which is very important for Heatran. It also hits harder than both of them. This alone is enough to put it in B-, but I can also see it going to C+

Goodra is a very nice answer to monsters such as Thundurus-Incarnate and Mega Charizard Y, and it gains Spacial Rend so it doesn't have to use Draco anymore which is kind of cool. This is less of a "it gained stuff so it got better" and more of a "the meta evolved in a way where Goodra's assets are more usable". It also does what Goodra normally does, which is wall Water- and Electric-type Pokemon. This is why its B-, but I can also see it in C+.
 

A- Rank -> A+ Rank

I am of the firm believe that Serperior is one of the best attackers in the current metagame. All it needs is Spore, and it instantly becomes a threat that most offensive teams struggle to counter effectively. With coverage in Leaf Storm / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Ground, Serperior is able to muscle through Pokemon such as Kyurem-B and Heatran. Very few Pokemon resist this combination of attacks (Whimsicott, Skarmory, Togekiss) and you don't have to worry about 2/3 of them. Serperior's Speed tier places it just above Mega Diancie, Thundurus, and Terrakion, which are all common selections for offensive teams. Serperior truly shines against offensive teams, as long as it scouts for Ice Shard Kyurem-B and Choice Scarf Landorus-T. However, this is not to say that Serperior is not effective versus defensive teams! It beats both Unaware Pokemon, fat Water-types, defensive Landorus-T, Porygon-2, etc. However, I must admit, Chansey is an upward battle. It takes three Leaf Storms in a row (+0, +2, +4) to KO it, or a 2HKO at +6, which is not realistically going to happen frequently. Contrary (hehe) to popular belief, it actually has a reasonable chance of breaking Heatran if it hits with Leaf Storm and then Hidden Power Ground which does 77.9% - 91.8% together, or 90.4% - 104.3% after Stealth Rock, which translates to ~25% to KO Heatran. If Heatran has taken previous damage, which is likely, and since Heatran doesn't have reliable recovery, it will likely lose to Serperior. In summary, Serperior does well versus offense, decently versus defense, and has a great Speed tier.

So, what's changed for Serperior to warrant such a huge jump in viability? Firstly, metagame shifts and trends. I've noticed a rise in usage for Diancie, which Serperior can execute, for example. The metagame is leaning currently in my opinion, focusing more towards offense, which Serperior excels versus. However, it must be noted that Serperior loses to Weavile and Tornadus-T, so it's not an automatic 6-0 of course. That's another mindset I want to clear up. Serperior usually only needs just about one boost and that's it, then it will do a ton of damage. The rolling effect is awesome, and I feel that it's not advised or good to use calcs with +6, since it's obviously going to obliterate everything in its path. No, +0 and +2 are the far most common 'stages' of Leaf Storm. The next point I've realized is how people are beginning to realize just how great Serperior is in my opinion. At first, admittedly, I doubted this monster, but I've found myself using it more and more and more and I just love this thing! It's so easy to fit on an offensive team, which is so easy to slap together mind you. Serperior is definitely better than other Pokemon in A-, and I believe its ranking should be changed to reflect its current viability. I understand this is a bold suggestion, but I stand firmly behind it.

Thanks!
 

Jolteon to B-.

I've been using Jolteon on several teams lately and I feel that a number of traits render it quite usable as a special attacker in the present metagame.
  • It is extremely fast, outsped by precious few ranked-thus-far Pokemon (most of whom are megas) and actually outspeeding +1 Timid Base-70s (or +1 Modest Base-81s).
  • Its stable of Normal-type moves give it access to powerful coverage moves in the form of Boomburst (actually more powerful against neutral targets, and much more spammable, than Thunderbolt) and Judgment (for any other attacking type -- if you run Fire, Ice, or Water, you can run Techno Blast + relevant Drive for the exact same effect [You usually die to Knock Offs anyways]). It lacks a bit in power without a boosting item, but it is capable of picking from among many threats it wants to handle. Consider:
252 SpA Earth Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 340-400 (88.3 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Icicle Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 564-664 (147.6 - 173.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Fist Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 254-300 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Pixie Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flame Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 428-504 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Fist Plate Jolteon Judgment vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 312-368 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

None of these calcs should be terribly surprising, but keep in mind that your opponent never knows that their switch-in is entirely safe. Its ability to run any Judgment makes it much easier to fit on teams and gives it a fighting chance at adapting to (most) metagame trends.
  • It has Volt Switch to gain/maintain momentum, which also lets you scout for its target.
  • Its ability, Volt Absorb, along with its typing, makes it a good check to standard Thundurus sets, as they can't simply Volt Switch out. Boomburst is a clean 2HKO, while a super-effective Judgment usually OHKOs. Volt Absorb is, of course, not strictly limited to checking Thundurus -- it serves as good backup for Electric-weak Pokemon in general.
Jolteon's problems come from its relative lack of power -- namely, hitting something neutrally is often not enough against bulky targets -- and that it is difficult to switch in against even neutral moves. It is also hella fuckin weak to priority and the scarfers that outspeed it.

Now, Heliolisk is probably the most apt comparison to Jolteon, being a fairly speedy Electric-type special attacker that hates priority and has access to Normal-type moves; it also boasts STAB on Boomburst, which is nothing to sneeze at, and (can) carry a type immunity in Dry Skin. Jolteon's advantages over Heliolisk is its particular Electric immunity and its ability to outspeed many more common threats. If Heliolisk makes its way into B- on its strengths, Jolteon should absolutely be that high on its own strengths.

Raikou is another obvious comparison, but I feel it's much less apt simply because Raikou is meant to switch in (Jolteon is not), and Jolteon gets Normal-type moves (Raikou does not). For what it's worth, you can give Jolteon Nuzzle if you really feel like it (but you probably shouldn't, run Raikou or Rotom-Wash for a Nuzzler).

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-282108680 Here's a replay of Jolteon putting in work against a good team. It threatens out Thundurus after miraculously surviving a Focus Blast and returns to revenge kill it later, Volt Switches out of Kyurem-Black and Heatran after dealing some preemptive damage (it revenge kills the former after Life Orb damage), and puts Landorus-T in killing range with HP Ice (a good move if you're running some other Judgment/Techno Blast). This shows that Jolteon performs well even against teams that, by and large, can tank its attacks.
 
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canno

formerly The Reptile
Small update to the list - sorry for being inactive! I'll try and be much more active from now on!

B+ -> B

I still think its a very solid mon, and deserves its B+ slot, but the general consensus is that B+ is not the spot for it. I think B would fit better then, if only due to it taking up your Mega Slot.

B+ -> A-

I'm actually moving this up, because Togekiss is very versatile. It can either use its old NP Stallbreak set or go defensive with 60% SpAtk drops with Moonblast. AV also sounds pretty nice due to its access to Oblivion Wing. Of course, it can also run Geomancy although it is definitely much weaker than it used to be.

A- -> A+

Basically, just look at unfixables post

unranked -> B-

Basically, look at Akumeoys post

B+ -> A-

I actually don't know why I don't have this in A- already. Manaphy is a dangerous wallbreaker even though it doesn't get much out of STABmons. While I still don't think its the S-Rank God that it is in OU due to how the meta is right now, I still think Manaphy is strong enough on its own merit to enter A-

The next step for this will be working on a complete C ranking list. I'll make a more formal post about it tomorrow because it is very late right now.
 
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