STABmons Viability Rankings Thread v3 ✿

Slowbro (B- to A-)


On offense, Slowbro is clearly one of the best pivots/blanket checks in the metagame. It checks Scarf/Defensive Lando-T, Mega Lopunny along with basically every other espeeder, Keldeo (non specs variants, specs can be checked by more specially defensive spreads which no longer beat scarf Lando-T), and Heatran, 4 of not only the best but also most common pokemon in the metagame. It's extremely splashable, and fits on nearly any team in need of a general metagame check. Unlike other physical walls, it can afford to keep up offensive momentum due to Regenerator, which makes double switching much more viable. If it chooses to stay in, Scald and Thunder Wave are wonderful at punishing switches. It can even effectively run a choice specs set, which is still bulky, but has very few reliable switch-ins. Still has a bunch of weaknesses, but it's so good at what it does that I don't really see how it's B- Rank worthy.

Jirachi (Unranked to B+)
I'm only going to talk about the Scarf set because it's the only set I've really used, but non-scarf sets are definitely still good.
It flinches everything, grabs easy momentum with u-turn, and has a steel typing that allows it to check fakespeeders and sylveon and resist rocks which are all fantastic for a scarfer. With lunar dance, it becomes a very valuable asset for offensive teams. Power is very underwhelming at times, and getting locked sometimes isn't that great, and it's very easy to check. Still, it has a solid niche and seems to be versatile, so B+ or B seem to be good fits for it.
 
Last edited:

EV

Banned deucer.
Man I didn't even realize Bro was so low. I'd even support A but that might be stretching it. I prefer Rocky Helmet if it's not mega to punish Lopunny/FakeSpeed in general as they lack recover 90% of the time.

Others:
  • Slowing (or word's favorite Pokemon): B -> B+/A-
    • Assault Vest is one of the best checks to Keldeo available. It's also a great Volcanion check because it doesn't mind burns as bad as something like Thick Fat Snorlax. Also with the Vest it can run Mirror Coat which KOs any Thundurus dumb enough to attack before setting up (plus other things). Checks Zard-Y in a pinch. Takes on Heatran very well. If you don't use Slowbro you use this.
  • Weavile: A- -> A
    • Needs to go back up. Weavile/Terrakion cores are ugly and I hate them. Only safe switch-ins are Mega Bro and Mega Scizor really, and Parting Shot just laughs in their face. SR weakness keeps it from hitting A+ because it has to pivot so much.
  • Clefable: A -> A- or lower
    • What's this do again? Mimic its OU set? When does it have time? Heatran is too good, Thundurus sets up on it, offensive Precipice Blades 2HKOs. If you want a Fairy run Mega Diancie, Klefki, or Sylveon.
  • Garchomp: A -> A+
    • Move this up please. It does so much. Defensive rocker, offensive rocker, SD, DD, Mixed, heck it could even rock a Scarf set and exceed. I've been dabbling with a Rocks+DD+2 attacks (Pblades/Stone Edge) and it's amazing how many teams it can plow through or tear apart for something else to come in because after they see Rocks they don't expect any form of setup. Sub+Lefties is always a good idea instead tho.
  • Gyarados: A -> A-
    • I love you Gyara but you're just not as good as Lando-T and lately I haven't had a reason to run this. Offensive is still nice but you're forced to run Roost a lot of the time with the SR weakness.
  • Gengar: A -> A-
    • Haven't seen him much. Hits pretty hard and fast, but Ghost/Poison aren't hitting enough of the metagame SE to warrant use imo, and it just dies to Pursuit Ttar every time. Use it as a HO suicide lead with Sash Tspikes/Destiny Bond imo but don't count on it for much else.
  • Klefki: A -> A+
    • Idr if this was A+ before or if I was against that but Klefki is a great glue for many balance teams. It poops on so many physical threats it's not even funny (oh and it's also one of the other Weavile switch-ins). Sadly it gives Thundurus a free switch anytime you don't hit Moonblast but overall it's just great.
  • Sylveon: ? -> A
    • I don't see this. Anyway, everyone's on the FakeSpeedBoom hype train and for good reason. Pixi Speed is strong enough even off that paltry Attack stat and can give you a superb Keldeo revenger that also scares physical walls thanks to Boomburst. 4th slot can be Judgment or another coverage move.
  • Mega Sableye: A -> B+
    • Who uses this and why? It's good but not good enough to use over Lopunny, Scizor, Diancie, Slowbro, etc. Plus Fairies are making a resurgence.
  • Zapdos: B+ -> A-
    • Static shenanigans! I love this for balance teams where I don't run Thundurus fsr. Static (and even Rocky Helmet) are fun for FakeSpeeders and Scizor, and Pressure is still just as good at cutting Espeed's low PP. Good supporter.
  • Braviary: B -> A-
    • Needs to go higher. Idk people stopped using it after we rebooted the rules but Defiant is awesome. Bulk Up is a lot of fun and Swords Dance just applies that pressure really fast. Lando-T can't stop it. Gyarados can spook it with Twave unless Sub. Fun mon. Needs more usage.
  • Jolteon: B -> B+/A-
    • I'm probably the only person using this and I probably won't get A- but hear me out. It's like the best offensive check to Thundurus due to Volt Absorb. Modest still outspeeds and OHKOs with Icicle Plate Judgment. Tbolt and Volt Switch for STAB leaving your fourth slot open to Electrify (not as gimmicky as it sounds when your target doesn't have priority), Nuzzle, or any other random Normal support move. Please?
  • Snorlax: B- -> B+
    • I tried out AV Thick Fat and it was cool. It still has 110 Attack (same as Stoutland) for FakeSpeed, carries Pursuit/Crunch, Earthquake, and any elemental punches. Or you can run BellySpeed (generally outclassed by Ursaring though). Use it for its bulk and Thick Fat otherwise use another FakeSpeeder.
Thank you.
 
- yes slowbro
- yes slowking (B+)
- yes weavile
- no clefable
- yes garchomp
- indifferent to gyarados
- no gengar
- yes klefki
- i forgot to put this in (sylveon)
- indifferent to mega sableye
- indifferent to zapdos
- indifferent to braviary
- conflicted about jolteon
- indifferent to snorlax

let me explain the no:

clefable: i just can never support moving this down. mega diancie, sylveon, and klefki are not comparable. clefable has an issue with heatran? knock off/focus blast. thundurus? ice beam. steel-types? fire blast. obviously it can't switch in, and it can't run it all, but i see zero things that have changed. clefable rocks! beyond this, thunder wave/cm/sboiled/mblast does not let thundurus set up lol. if you have that bad of an issue with thundurus, run thunderbolt. you can easily ev it to live. unaware clef + volc is a cool core, and i def rec you try it out. clefable adapts, it's what it does. don't drop this as a.) nothing's gotten worse for it, b.) it's a fantastic pokemon no matter where you take it.

gengar: the only special ghost-type that's viable and able to run an insanely powerful wallbreaker set absolutely deserves its spot. using it as a HO suicide lead is a waste of your gengar. if you're using that, you're using a B- Rank gengar set. lo w/ taunt or will-o-wisp/sball/sbomb/fblast and good luck. w-o-w the ttar switch in and you're living a pursuit, or roll the dice and ohko it with focus blast. gengar is an insane threat and should not move down at all.

jolteon: well yeah it's good, but it's niche. it's strong but not exactly super powerful w/ having to run icicle plate, having a treacherous movepool and absolutely zero bulk means you can't use it for anything but checking thundurus. it's a great niche, and i like jolteon a lot, but this niche of a pokemon probably belongs in b, and not the a ranks.
 
Clefable beats most variants of Heatran now with T-wave, actually, most of the checks to Clefable are heavily pressured by Thunder wave, the exception being Excadrill/Nidoking, but neither of those are really all too relevant.

Heatran is T-waved then you continue to Calm mind and softboil when the taunt wears off - it's not the best way to do it, but Heatran runs Doom desire meaning it's struggling to do damage before Clefable sets up. Heatran has so many moves to run, the sets that really would pressure Clefable like taunt + flash cannon are hard to afford. LandorusT needs to be defensive to prevent being pressured by Moonblast, but then it lacks the power to continously pressure Clefable.

Plenty of pokemon can easily be pressured by Clefable, but most importantly, it's a sweeper best for early/midgame. Often it wont be the one 6-0ing, but to spread Yellow Magic and weaken the team. It's unpredictable, versatile and an excellent glue pokemon for a dozens of cores.
 
Why isn't Ditto ranked?

Ditto: Choice Scarf
Ability : Imposter
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Move pool:
Transform
Lovely Kiss
Filler
Filler
Welcome,

Ditto is not ranked because there isn't any real reason to use it on a serious team. Chansey simply pulls of Transform better. Imposter is nice, but using Ditto in an entire teamslot with zero other utility just doesn't make sense when you can use Chansey.

If you have further questions, feel free to PM me on here, or on Showdown! You should also check out the Other Metas room on Pokemon Showdown! They can give you more advice and help you learn the metagame a bit more! :)
 

EV

Banned deucer.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-389182007
Here's max Sdef Clefable versus standard Thundurus. I played 3 matches to account for rolls. Clefable won once with a crit. I don't know why anyone would run Knock Off or Focus Blast Clefable even if it's just for Heatran. If you do that, you give up ... all the good moves that supposedly make it great. Same with running Ice Beam just for Thundurus. Now you're running a B- Clefable. Unaware is its niche in STABmons, and that loses to the best setup sweeper in the game, even at max Sdef (which means it loses to strong physical attackers now). Magic Guard is still great, but not A, not with all the hard-hitters in the metagame. Spreading paralysis shouldn't be its selling point anyway, not when Klefki, Thundurus, Rotom-W, and others do it better. A- or B+.

Also, saying Ditto isn't ranked because it doesn't work on serious teams is incorrect. Klang (and others) use Ditto as a deterrent and check to setup spam. Your opponent can't decide what Ditto is going to copy whereas a Chansey's Transform takes a turn to complete, letting you Sub, Taunt, or switch to a target you can counter with your own team. Ditto used to be A on the old ranks. I don't see why it still can't be ranked highly again.
 
Ditto is not ranked because there isn't any real reason to use it on a serious team. Chansey simply pulls of Transform better. Imposter is nice, but using Ditto in an entire teamslot with zero other utility just doesn't make sense when you can use Chansey.
Ditto is used to revenge kill set-up sweepers, which there are 5 billion of in STABmons, and that's why it's a lot more viable here than it is in standard tiers. Ditto is an amazing win condition against HO this way, sending mons that will generally always outspeed you including but not limited to Talonflame, Snorlax, Ursaring and Lopunny packing. It's decreased in viability now that some of the stronger set-up moves are gone sure, but it still certainly has a place in the viability rankings - B sounds appropriate to me.

As for comparing it to Chansey, Chansey cannot hope to do what Ditto does - Transform is hardly a revenge killing tool unless the opponent is fully special and is more appropriately used to pose an offensive threat to opposing attackers.
 
Last edited:

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Why bother with Chansey using Transform? That means you have Eviolite, otherwise you would be using Blissey with a Choice Scarf.

Ditto with Scarf is the reason to use it, as even a Scarf of Blissey won't make it fast enough to go and use Transform first.

And what if your foe, knowing it might transform, sends in a Pokemon weak to their current Pokemon? With Imposter, Ditto does not allow the opponent to predict, it switches in, where as with Chansey, your opponent switches in.

Also, what makes ditto better is the immediate ability gain. Switching into Heatran makes it immune to Fire attacks, Burn, and even boosts it fire moves thanks to Flash Fire.

With people discussing Jolteon, Ditto can switch into it as well and heal with Volt Absorb.

With Chansey, you get burned, paralyzed, or hit with a Stab attack.
 
Didn't see the tag.

I've not made any changes since, PMs. No point in changing things if we're revamping it.
 
Big update. Changes:

A+ ---> A
A+ ---> A
A+ ---> A
A+ ---> A-
A ---> A+
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A- ---> A
A- --> A+
Some things in B and more, but these are the ~big~ changes from A Rank.

Topic for discussion:

Should the Viability Rankings be ordered by viability or alphabetically?
 
I think that alphabetically makes more sense. If you're familiar with the concept of a partially order set (which a viability ranking pretty clearly is), the pokemon in each bracket are often non-comparable. That is to say, they are better than some shared set of pokemon and worse than some other shared set of pokemon, but they fill wildly different niches which makes it difficult to rank them directly against each other, e.g. Latios and Porygon2 are both A Rank but have nothing in common in terms of stats, movepool, typing, ability, checks, role, or playstyle.

Making the sub-ordering alphabetical makes it clear that we're not trying to make a fully ordered list and that the pokemon within a bracket are similarly powerful and relevant. If two pokemon in a bracket have significant differences in viability, one or both should be moved.
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I really don't agree w/ mega bro and klefki dropping but w/e.

They should unquestionably be ordered alphabetically. Viability based vrs are for rankings that are just about perfect, and only work on stable tiers (see: ubers). This vr is already lacking and we will just end up debating viability in circles. There's already lots of major rank changes that need discussion, never mind subtle changes within ranks. Hell, our ranks below B are a mess.


Also re your update:
Some things in B and more, but these are the ~big~ changes from A Rank.
You need to post all of your changes, not just "some things in B and more". This thread isn't your opinion, it's the community's opinion. You are simply hosting said opinions and discussions. Not only that but you didn't even update the op so we don't even know but updates you concocted.


Anyways, since you neglected to actually bring up discussion points besides how this thread should be ran (lol), here's my personal nominations I think warrant discussion:

Serperior A- --> A: steamrolls teams, it's ridiculous how good this is. Also very versatile and picks it's checks and counters. Also matches up well enough with top threats and rotom being on every team helps since it's complete sub bait.

Sylveon A --> A-: underwhelming af, yeah it is strong but it's so slow at best it's trading and at worst it's inviting scary steels such as scizor in to do w/e they want. Bulkier teams are also less great so it doesn't need to pressure them.

Latias-mega B- --> A-: lol. Boltbeam is amazing, and it checks/counters so many major threats including all of S.

Mamoswine B+ --> B: Shitty Lando check and I wouldn't even call it a Thundy check. Not as good as the rest of B+ imo.

Medicham-mega C --> B+: lol.
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I really don't agree w/ mega bro and klefki dropping but w/e.

They should unquestionably be ordered alphabetically. Viability based vrs are for rankings that are just about perfect, and only work on stable tiers (see: ubers). This vr is already lacking and we will just end up debating viability in circles. There's already lots of major rank changes that need discussion, never mind subtle changes within ranks. Hell, our ranks below B are a mess.


Also re your update:

You need to post all of your changes, not just "some things in B and more". This thread isn't your opinion, it's the community's opinion. You are simply hosting said opinions and discussions. Not only that but you didn't even update the op so we don't even know but updates you concocted.


Anyways, since you neglected to actually bring up discussion points besides how this thread should be ran (lol), here's my personal nominations I think warrant discussion:

Serperior A- --> A: steamrolls teams, it's ridiculous how good this is. Also very versatile and picks it's checks and counters. Also matches up well enough with top threats and rotom being on every team helps since it's complete sub bait.

Sylveon A --> A-: underwhelming af, yeah it is strong but it's so slow at best it's trading and at worst it's inviting scary steels such as scizor in to do w/e they want. Bulkier teams are also less great so it doesn't need to pressure them.

Latias-mega B- --> A-: lol. Boltbeam is amazing, and it checks/counters so many major threats including all of S.

Mamoswine B+ --> B: Shitty Lando check and I wouldn't even call it a Thundy check. Not as good as the rest of B+ imo.

Medicham-mega C --> B+: lol.
For the record PU does ranking by viability too do this isn't only for stable tiers, plus I'm not sure how stabmons will really change unless there's yet another change to the rules but yeah as long as you have an active enough playerbase/council that isn't too stupidly large to manage like ou it's not impossible. Also we only do it for s-b so you wouldn't be required to sort through really niche shit
 

Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The council isn't even active enough to post their full update or actually do the changes in the op, lol
 
The council isn't even active enough to post their full update or actually do the changes in the op, lol
No changes were made to the OP since we spent about a month discussing and making changes that fit everyone's opinion to the best as possible. It wasn't council inactivity, but rather activity behind a PM.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Well not all the changes are even incorporated in the OP.
  • I asked you to switch the Rotom formes.
  • Clefable is still in A.
  • Ursaring is in B?
  • Other stuff are just too low: Slowking, Zapdos, Hippowdon, Mega Latias, Snorlax, Stoutland, Meloetta, Mega Swampert, Talonflame.
  • Espeon needs to go away. Alomomola? Seismitoad?
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I mean I wouldn't mind ordering by viability only if we at a rule that noms can't be based off sub rank changes (basically only VR council controls the ordering of the sub rank list) in order to prevent too much arbitrary discussion in the thread. Also it should only be done from S-B as C rank becomes too difficult as the mons niches within that rank are hard to compare.

Will leave my own noms later as don't have enough time now but definitely don't agree with the Mega Slowbro and Klefki drop as well. Will explain later.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Oh yeah, no no no to sub-viability. The nuances are so minute already between +/neutral/minus that dividing it up even more is absurd.
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hey could we remove rank definitions? They're really arbitrary and weird and I feel they can get in the way of proper discussions. Statements like "define the metagame" and "adaptable to the metagame" cover different aspects of Pokemon and what does "defining" actually entail? I'd be more comfortable if the VR was a simple ranking of what Pokemon are the best

There are a bunch of changes that I'm thinking of but Melo seems super low rn and B+ or even higher would be better suited for it imo
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Hey could we remove rank definitions? They're really arbitrary and weird and I feel they can get in the way of proper discussions. Statements like "define the metagame" and "adaptable to the metagame" cover different aspects of Pokemon and what does "defining" actually entail? I'd be more comfortable if the VR was a simple ranking of what Pokemon are the best

There are a bunch of changes that I'm thinking of but Melo seems super low rn and B+ or even higher would be better suited for it imo
Well now it just looks like a list of Pokemon thrown together arbitrarily.

At least the definitions gave some indication as to why a Pokemon was in S or A. Now, anyone new to STABmons and/or VR lists as a whole isn't gonna have a clue what's going on.

Give them a brief explanation imo.

And why is Snorlax so looooow. Belly Drum is so gooood.
 
can we agree on things before posting them next time? preferably in pm so as not to clog the thread up. post about viability changes here, and make nominations. eevee, make a nomination for things to move since i can't read your mind. bacon, argue for or against rankings.

trying to make everyone happy but please articulate your thoughts otherwise i have no idea what you mean.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top