-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame STABmons
- Thread starter Funbot28
- Start date
Depends. If Sketchmons does poorly throughout it's time as a ladder, then we will consider replacing it when the time comes to change ladders. Assuming STABmons is successful on the forum, and does well when it wins OMotM, then it would be considered to replace it. That is unless another move-based OM comes along and outperforms both STABmons and Sketchmons.
I was planning on saving this, but since I'm out of the tour here's a really obnoxious set that kartana can run to bypass goggles celesteela:
Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Power Whip
- Sunsteel Strike
All Out Pummeling OHKOes Celesteela at +2: +2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 345-406 (86.6 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, while even if they kings sheild you break through, deal damage, don't get the drops and can hit freely next turn with +2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 178-210 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (or since KS sets tend to be SPD just KO it outright).
It's not as good as sash, spore, or life orb outside of beating celesteela, but if you run this+smth checked by celesteela like Landot or they rely on celesteela to answer Kartana, it's gg right there.
Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Power Whip
- Sunsteel Strike
All Out Pummeling OHKOes Celesteela at +2: +2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 345-406 (86.6 - 102%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, while even if they kings sheild you break through, deal damage, don't get the drops and can hit freely next turn with +2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 178-210 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (or since KS sets tend to be SPD just KO it outright).
It's not as good as sash, spore, or life orb outside of beating celesteela, but if you run this+smth checked by celesteela like Landot or they rely on celesteela to answer Kartana, it's gg right there.
EV
Banned deucer.
As many Celesteela are running Goggles to check Kartana, it's much easier to trap and remove it with Magnezone, thus allowing you to run a more consistent Kartana set. Diggersby, Landorus-T, MVenu, etc are common on enough teams that you can draw out the Celesteela, and the former two have U-turn making it even easier.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Last edited:
I've been strictly using hyper offense, but even then, Kartana is a threat that I have to prepare for in teambuilding. I think most of the metagame right now is really restricted to some form of offense, though to varying degrees. Many people seem to be caught up in the idea that you need one pokemon to beat kartana, and for good reason; it's nearly impossible to do, and as many have mentioned before, the only real thing capable of such a thing, safety goggles celesteela, gets trapped. As dumb as it sounds, I think it really does require a two-pokemon "effort" to beat kartana on offense or in general. Here's my approach to dealing with Kartana, at least on offense:
1) Scarf Fire Types
Pokemon like Scarftran and Scarf Chandy are probably the best checks to Kartana. As long as you don't play mindlessly (i.e. switching Heatran in on obvious sacred swords), scarf fire types can, for the most part, keep Kartana in check while keeping up offensive pressure. Kartana dies to pretty much any special attack, so you don't even really have to predict that much either. These are by no means counters, but if your team desparately needs speed control and a kartana check, Heatran and Chandelure should be good fits. They can combat nearly all sets with sleep talk, though chandelure shouldn't be switching into too many hits, if any.
2) Bulky Steels in general, esp. ones with u-turn (Scizor/Mega Scizor/[overcoat escavalier?]/Celesteela/Skarm/Jirachi/Forre/Scarf Magnezone)
In the lens of offensive teams, Kartana really has two main sets: scarf and non-scarf. It's a good idea to always run a go-to switch-in for Kartana. Even on my hyper offensive teams, I tend to run band scizor, scarf jirachi, or scarf mag in combination with other scarfers. If Kartana is scarfed, it won't do much damage to these pokemon, allowing me to get off some heavy hits or grab some easy momentum. If it isn't scarfed, I can usually either u-turn out or let one of my useless pokemon go to sleep and switch into a scarfer to revenge kill.
It's not like bulky steels or offensive steels are exactly uncommon; most teams, by now, have one, and if they don't one, they really should. Also, Scarf Fire types are good enough in the metagame right now that they do warrant at least some usage. Since it's hyper offense, I've used this basic core and never really had too many problems with Kartana, whether it's scarf or spore, even though half my team is usually beast-boost fodder for it.
Because of how prevalent Celesteela and Kartana are right now, another option is Scarf Magnezone, which takes Kartana out of contention. Personally, though, I'm less of a fan of this strategy because while it does beat Kartana, it does much less for the team than steel + fire does.
I'm not saying that Kartana isn't broken; I'm just suggesting some ways to deal with it since the people in this thread seem to think it's the apocalypse. I do believe Kartana will be banned, partly because of power and partly because it's basically the first ever good, fast offensive spore user.
1) Scarf Fire Types
Pokemon like Scarftran and Scarf Chandy are probably the best checks to Kartana. As long as you don't play mindlessly (i.e. switching Heatran in on obvious sacred swords), scarf fire types can, for the most part, keep Kartana in check while keeping up offensive pressure. Kartana dies to pretty much any special attack, so you don't even really have to predict that much either. These are by no means counters, but if your team desparately needs speed control and a kartana check, Heatran and Chandelure should be good fits. They can combat nearly all sets with sleep talk, though chandelure shouldn't be switching into too many hits, if any.
2) Bulky Steels in general, esp. ones with u-turn (Scizor/Mega Scizor/[overcoat escavalier?]/Celesteela/Skarm/Jirachi/Forre/Scarf Magnezone)
In the lens of offensive teams, Kartana really has two main sets: scarf and non-scarf. It's a good idea to always run a go-to switch-in for Kartana. Even on my hyper offensive teams, I tend to run band scizor, scarf jirachi, or scarf mag in combination with other scarfers. If Kartana is scarfed, it won't do much damage to these pokemon, allowing me to get off some heavy hits or grab some easy momentum. If it isn't scarfed, I can usually either u-turn out or let one of my useless pokemon go to sleep and switch into a scarfer to revenge kill.
It's not like bulky steels or offensive steels are exactly uncommon; most teams, by now, have one, and if they don't one, they really should. Also, Scarf Fire types are good enough in the metagame right now that they do warrant at least some usage. Since it's hyper offense, I've used this basic core and never really had too many problems with Kartana, whether it's scarf or spore, even though half my team is usually beast-boost fodder for it.
Because of how prevalent Celesteela and Kartana are right now, another option is Scarf Magnezone, which takes Kartana out of contention. Personally, though, I'm less of a fan of this strategy because while it does beat Kartana, it does much less for the team than steel + fire does.
I'm not saying that Kartana isn't broken; I'm just suggesting some ways to deal with it since the people in this thread seem to think it's the apocalypse. I do believe Kartana will be banned, partly because of power and partly because it's basically the first ever good, fast offensive spore user.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Firstly, Tapu Koko's Speed is a major selling point for it. Thanks to having a base 130 Speed, Tapu Koko is able to outspeed top tier threats such as Greninja [pre-Ash], Thundurus, Serperior, and things such as +1 Zygarde [note: 252 Spe Zygarde just barely outpaces Tapu Koko]. In fact, only Pokemon with Choice Scarf and a Speed stat of 91 or higher [think Landorus-T], Pheromosa, and Greninja-A naturally outspeed Tapu Koko. With how offensive of a metagame STABmons is, Speed is crucial to success for offensive threats, and Tapu Koko has one of the highest. Furthermore, its Attack stat enables it to completely blast through pretty much everything bar Marowak-A. Bolt Strike under Electric Terrain hits an astounding base power of 195, the equivalent to its Z-variant. That's pretty crazy. And that's without STAB, mind you. Plus, Tapu Koko is often seen donning a Choice Band, so it does even more insanely high damage. Premier defensive threats such as Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, Silvally-Steel, and Heatran all get 2HKOed or OHKOed by Bolt Strike. Nothing bar Marowak-A safely switches in, and even then some Tapu Koko carry Brave Bird, which walks over Marowak-A.
Next, Tapu Koko is a momentum grabber that can instantly gain yourself an advantage within a heartbeat. Such a fast U-turn is nothing to scoff of, and the ability to zoom in and out is a godsend for Tapu Koko. Volt Switch is also insanely strong if you decide to run that, though I prefer U-turn so you're not deadweight versus Garchomp [when locked in], Landorus-T, and Marowak-A. Switching right out and going into something like Greninja which can threaten to set into its Ash form is great and gives your team a great way to deal with common threats. Here's a sample Tapu Koko set that I like to run:
Tapu Koko @ Zap Plate
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Play Rough
- Bolt Strike
Although you lose a bit of power from Choice Band, Tapu Koko retains all of its normal strength in Bolt Strike and can bluff its Choice Band. Furthermore, Roost allows Tapu Koko to remain healthy throughout the match and gives it a lot more potential late game I've found. And defensive teams are sent further into debt because they can't rely on hoping it weakens itself through repeated switch-ins. Some other notable sets are obviously Choice Band, Eevee General likes to run Choice Scarf, and Life Orb sets could also see use. I've tested out a Choice Specs set, but it's pretty underwhelming because Bolt Strike is the main draw; however, it does have the nice ability to 2HKO Marowak-A with Moonblast and catch a ton of things off guard. Typically, Roost / Hidden Power variants / Brave Bird are what can be seen as interchangeable.
However, Tapu Koko has a few glaring flaws. Notably, its forced reliance on Bolt Strike to deal massive damage, as Play Rough is simply not strong enough and U-turn isn't for damaging purpose. Though, Hidden Power Ice / Ground, and Brave Bird are viable on Choice Band sets to fix that up. Secondly, Extreme Speed is a massive thorn in Tapu Koko's side. It does have enough physical bulk to take one or two, but repeatedly it can fall victim to strong priority.
Despite a few flaws in its weakness to priority and over-reliance on Bolt Strike, Tapu Koko is certainly a top tier threat that deserves a rank shift to reflect its current viability in the metagame.
Funbot28 and I have both stumbled on the same anti-meta pokemon: Rotom-C.
Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Searing Shot
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
This set is designed to be a bulky pivot to deal with Kartana and Zygarde, two of the strongest threats right now. I wouldn't call it a "counter" to Kartana, since it can be muscled past with SD + ZMove sets or sash. It also can be PP stalled by SpD sub+coil Zygarde sets, so more speed might be beneficial. It also has at least slightly positive matchups against things like Chomp, Lando, Celesteela, Greninja, Koko, Ferrothorn, and Bewear. It has surprisingly strong typing (immune to ground, 4x electric resist, 2x water, grass, steel resists, and not weak to 1k arrows or common physical coverage), excellent coverage of its own, good enough stats, very good recovery, and a spore immunity. There are definitely micro-optimizations that you can make with odd HP, speed-creep, and reverse speed-creep for volt switch. Spore, Steam Eruption, Thunderbolt, Defog, and Nuzzle are also good options if you don't find yourself needing this specific coverage. There's also a case to be made for Roost > Strength Sap. This is a very solid template though. Basically if you find yourself using bulky Rotom-W or Rotom-H and find that they don't have quite the matchups or typing that you want, or just need a new bulky pivot to try out, I highly recommend this.
Also Kartana is surprisingly versatile in terms of the items it runs, despite like 95% of the sets being sash/LO + SD. Quantum Tesseract and I have both experimented with Z-Attack + SD sets, which lets it plow through defensive answers pretty easily. Steelium lets it OHKO A-Wak and similar pokemon at +2 and Fightinium Z blows up Celesteela. Grassium is also an option, but I don't think it has quite as good neutral coverage as steel and fighting do. I've also tried out a Scarf set, which is an insane cleaner that can easily surprise faster would-be checks and snowball with Beast Boost into very strong positions. Band can also break through a lot of checks after a little chip damage, and can also clean with Bullet Punch. I don't think any of these sets are quite as powerful as LO or Sash SD, but they're very strong mixups that can easily flip specific matchups on their heads.
Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Searing Shot
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
This set is designed to be a bulky pivot to deal with Kartana and Zygarde, two of the strongest threats right now. I wouldn't call it a "counter" to Kartana, since it can be muscled past with SD + ZMove sets or sash. It also can be PP stalled by SpD sub+coil Zygarde sets, so more speed might be beneficial. It also has at least slightly positive matchups against things like Chomp, Lando, Celesteela, Greninja, Koko, Ferrothorn, and Bewear. It has surprisingly strong typing (immune to ground, 4x electric resist, 2x water, grass, steel resists, and not weak to 1k arrows or common physical coverage), excellent coverage of its own, good enough stats, very good recovery, and a spore immunity. There are definitely micro-optimizations that you can make with odd HP, speed-creep, and reverse speed-creep for volt switch. Spore, Steam Eruption, Thunderbolt, Defog, and Nuzzle are also good options if you don't find yourself needing this specific coverage. There's also a case to be made for Roost > Strength Sap. This is a very solid template though. Basically if you find yourself using bulky Rotom-W or Rotom-H and find that they don't have quite the matchups or typing that you want, or just need a new bulky pivot to try out, I highly recommend this.
Also Kartana is surprisingly versatile in terms of the items it runs, despite like 95% of the sets being sash/LO + SD. Quantum Tesseract and I have both experimented with Z-Attack + SD sets, which lets it plow through defensive answers pretty easily. Steelium lets it OHKO A-Wak and similar pokemon at +2 and Fightinium Z blows up Celesteela. Grassium is also an option, but I don't think it has quite as good neutral coverage as steel and fighting do. I've also tried out a Scarf set, which is an insane cleaner that can easily surprise faster would-be checks and snowball with Beast Boost into very strong positions. Band can also break through a lot of checks after a little chip damage, and can also clean with Bullet Punch. I don't think any of these sets are quite as powerful as LO or Sash SD, but they're very strong mixups that can easily flip specific matchups on their heads.
Last edited:
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Yeh I am running a slightly more offensive set with Spore to support other teammates a bit more although Strength Sap is better on defensive sets like Virginia posted. So yeh he kinda summed up all the main points upon why Rotom-C might be the most benificial forme to run right now due to defensive Grass-types with a Ground Immunity being so good in the current metagame, while also having access to a ubiquity of coverage moves. Here is the set I have been running:
Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 152 Def / 32 SpA / 80 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Ice Beam
- Spore
- Volt Switch
EVs are placed to ensure that Rotom-C lives both 2 Thousand Arrows from a +1 Zygarde (even when its grounded) and also allows it to OHKO any Zygarde set with Ice Beam. Definteley encourage others to try out Rotom-C more, its so good right now.
Rotom-Mow @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 152 Def / 32 SpA / 80 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Ice Beam
- Spore
- Volt Switch
EVs are placed to ensure that Rotom-C lives both 2 Thousand Arrows from a +1 Zygarde (even when its grounded) and also allows it to OHKO any Zygarde set with Ice Beam. Definteley encourage others to try out Rotom-C more, its so good right now.
To clarify, this ban is for the second round of the STABmons Open tournament, which is serving as a large-scale Kartana suspect tour. Feedback on whether or not you think Kartana should be banned is always appreciated and considered. For what it's worth, the council is unanimously of the opinion that it's too much to handle due to its insane offensive stats, ability to neuter checks with spore, the way that it steamrolls teams with beast boost, and its ability to bypass many "counters" by switching between sash and LO (e.g. Goggles Celesteela loses to sash, and AWak gets OHKO'd by LO). It's also got many unexplored options in choice or ZMove sets and has a lot of "tech" options between sunsteel, bullet punch, horn leech, and anchor shot. I have yet to see a strong pro-kartana case, but I'm eager to see what people have to say about it.
EV
Banned deucer.
Core Ideas
A Teambuilding Guide by Eevee General
A Teambuilding Guide by Eevee General
I want to discuss a particular core I've been reusing in many of my Sun/Moon teams. I was inspired to use this core after seeing its effectiveness in OU and realizing how transferable it was to the STABmons metagame. The core's conceit is extremely versatile, but the main four Pokemon I'm going to focus on are the best combination I've found to date.
Let's start with a little philosophy. Building around a structured core is a fundamental process for producing teams with reliable match-ups versus the metagame's top trends. My preference is to build around balance cores, as I appreciate having a defensive backbone for my teams, but as I stated above, there is room for creativity and adapting this core for more offensive teams can be done quite easily.
The core itself is a classic FIRE / WATER / GRASS trio plus a dedicated FakeSpeed check. There are three main Pokemon I recycle: Alola Marowak, Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, plus usually Celesteela, Garchomp, or Landorus-T, with flexibility depending on your mega needs. The core offers a lot of defensive type-synergy and has hazard / hazard removal self contained in the unit. And as always, longevity is key to any balance core, so every member has access to reliable recovery. When it comes time to fitting the core into a full team, the last two team slots are filled with mainstays of any balance archetype: A Fakespeeder or revenger and a setup sweeper / wallbreaker.
Here's the overview:
[1] Fire: Alola Marowak
[2] Water: Tapu Fini
[3] Grass: Mega Venusaur
[4] FakeSpeed Check
[5] FakeSpeeder / Revenger
[6] Setup Sweeper / Wallbreaker
Here's a sample Balance team with a flexible [4]:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
OR
[5]
[6]
Here's a more Offensive approach:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
I have found that other Pokemon can work in lieu of the main FWG + FakeSpeed Check core, but I don't consider them as effective as a cohesive unit. They are still worth exploring, however, and can fulfill the role of a generic FWG or FakeSpeed checker as needed.
Other adaptations:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
Considerations:
- The main balance core of four is slow.
- The core has a bad match-up versus stall.
- There is no rapid spin option unless you fill that role in slots [5] or [6].
Threats to the main Core:
Suggestions? Recommendations? Questions? Have you used this core or something else similar? Share! And thanks for reading.
Last edited:
You're forgetting Strength Sap on M-Venu. It's probably a better recovery option than Synthesis.Core Ideas
A Teambuilding Guide by Eevee General
I want to discuss a particular core I've been reusing in many of my Sun/Moon teams. I was inspired to use this core after seeing its effectiveness in OU and realizing how transferable it was to the STABmons metagame. The core's conceit is extremely versatile, but the main four Pokemon I'm going to focus on are the best combination I've found to date.
Let's start with a little philosophy. Building around a structured core is a fundamental process for producing teams with reliable match-ups versus the metagame's top trends. My preference is to build around balance cores, as I appreciate having a defensive backbone for my teams, but as I stated above, there is room for creativity and adapting this core for more offensive teams can be done quite easily.
The core itself is a classic FIRE / WATER / GRASS trio plus a dedicated FakeSpeed check. There are three main Pokemon I recycle: Alola Marowak, Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, plus usually Celesteela, Garchomp, or Landorus-T, with flexibility depending on your mega needs. The core offers a lot of defensive type-synergy and has hazard / hazard removal self contained in the unit. And as always, longevity is key to any balance core, so every member has access to reliable recovery. When it comes time to fitting the core into a full team, the last two team slots are filled with mainstays of any balance archetype: A Fakespeeder or revenger and a setup sweeper / wallbreaker.
Here's the overview:
[1] Fire: Alola Marowak
[2] Water: Tapu Fini
[3] Grass: Mega Venusaur
[4] FakeSpeed Check
[5] FakeSpeeder / Revenger
[6] Setup Sweeper / Wallbreaker
Here's a sample Balance team with a flexible [4]:
[1]Alola Marowak: Lightning Rod, 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def, Adamant (
) Fire Lash or V-create | Shadow Bone | Shore Up | Stealth Rock or Knock Off
[2]Tapu Fini: Misty Surge, 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD, Calm (
) Moonlight | Origin Pulse or Scald | Haze | Moonblast or Defog
[3]Mega Venusaur: Thick Fat, 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD, Bold (
) Synthesis | Seed Flare | Hidden Power Fire | Spore
[4]Celesteela: Beast Boost, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD, Calm (
/
) Defog | Oblivion Wing | Flamethrower | Roost
ORGarchomp: Rough Skin, 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe, Impish (
) Shore Up | Stealth Rock | Precipice Blades | Dragon Tail
[5]Diggersby: Huge Power, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Adamant (
) Fake Out | Extreme Speed | Precipice Blades | U-turn or Knock Off
[6]Kyurem-Black: Teravolt, 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, Naive (
) Dragon Dance | Icicle Crash | Fusion Bolt | Earth Power
Here's a more Offensive approach:
[1]Alola Marowak: Lightning Rod, 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def, Adamant () V-create | Shadow Bone or Shadow Sneak | Shore Up | Stealth Rock
[2]Ash Greninja: Battle Bond, 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, Timid (
) Steam Eruption | Dark Pulse | Water Shuriken | Parting Shot
[3]Mega Venusaur: Thick Fat, 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD, Bold () Synthesis | Seed Flare | Hidden Power Fire | Spore
[4]Landorus-Therian: Intimidate, 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe, Impish (
) Defog | Roost | Precipice Blades | U-turn
[5]Diggersby: Huge Power, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Adamant () Fake Out | Extreme Speed | Precipice Blades | Ice Punch or Knock Off
[6]Tapu Koko: Electric Surge, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Jolly (
/
) Bolt Strike | Play Rough | U-turn | Brave Bird
I have found that other Pokemon can work in lieu of the main FWG + FakeSpeed Check core, but I don't consider them as effective as a cohesive unit. They are still worth exploring, however, and can fulfill the role of a generic FWG or FakeSpeed checker as needed.
Other adaptations:
[1]Mega Charizard X: Offense,
Rotom-H: Balance / Offense,
Heatran: Balance, Offense
[2]Rotom-W: Balance / Offense,
Slowking: Balance / Offense
[3]Ferrothorn: Balance,
Amoonguss: Balance,
Tapu Bulu: Offense
[4]Ghost Silvally: Balance / Offense,
Steel Silvally: Balance
Considerations:
- The main balance core of four is slow.
- The core has a bad match-up versus stall.
- There is no rapid spin option unless you fill that role in slots [5] or [6].
Threats to the main Core:
Thundurus: The standard NP + Taunt set can rip through all three Pokemon of the main FWG core and Celesteela or Landorus-T easily.
Kyurem-Black: Thanks to Teravolt, the mixed set (like in the first team) can land super effective hits against teamslots [1] - [4].
Bulky Sub Zygarde: Tapu Fini is your best bet to stop Zygarde with a combination of Haze and Moonblast. Otherwise it can setup on most of your team.
Choice Band Aerodactyl: If the core lacks Celesteela (and sometimes even with Celesteela), Banded Aerodactyl has a field day with your team.
Belly Drum Sweepers: As long as they carry Earthquake or Crunch for Marowak, Snorlax and Ursaring can clean out the core with ease should Celesteela be absent.
Suggestions? Recommendations? Questions? Have you used this core or something else similar? Share! And thanks for reading.
Why would you use scald on Tapu Fini? It can't burn foes in the Misty Terrain that it sets and is therefore outclassed by Surf or Origin Pulse.Core Ideas
A Teambuilding Guide by Eevee General
I want to discuss a particular core I've been reusing in many of my Sun/Moon teams. I was inspired to use this core after seeing its effectiveness in OU and realizing how transferable it was to the STABmons metagame. The core's conceit is extremely versatile, but the main four Pokemon I'm going to focus on are the best combination I've found to date.
Let's start with a little philosophy. Building around a structured core is a fundamental process for producing teams with reliable match-ups versus the metagame's top trends. My preference is to build around balance cores, as I appreciate having a defensive backbone for my teams, but as I stated above, there is room for creativity and adapting this core for more offensive teams can be done quite easily.
The core itself is a classic FIRE / WATER / GRASS trio plus a dedicated FakeSpeed check. There are three main Pokemon I recycle: Alola Marowak, Tapu Fini, Mega Venusaur, plus usually Celesteela, Garchomp, or Landorus-T, with flexibility depending on your mega needs. The core offers a lot of defensive type-synergy and has hazard / hazard removal self contained in the unit. And as always, longevity is key to any balance core, so every member has access to reliable recovery. When it comes time to fitting the core into a full team, the last two team slots are filled with mainstays of any balance archetype: A Fakespeeder or revenger and a setup sweeper / wallbreaker.
Here's the overview:
[1] Fire: Alola Marowak
[2] Water: Tapu Fini
[3] Grass: Mega Venusaur
[4] FakeSpeed Check
[5] FakeSpeeder / Revenger
[6] Setup Sweeper / Wallbreaker
Here's a sample Balance team with a flexible [4]:
[1]Alola Marowak: Lightning Rod, 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def, Adamant () Fire Lash or V-create | Shadow Bone | Shore Up | Stealth Rock or Knock Off
[2]Tapu Fini: Misty Surge, 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD, Calm () Moonlight | Origin Pulse or Scald | Haze | Moonblast or Defog
[3]Mega Venusaur: Thick Fat, 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD, Bold () Synthesis | Seed Flare | Hidden Power Fire | Spore
[4]Celesteela: Beast Boost, 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD, Calm (/) Defog | Oblivion Wing | Flamethrower | Roost
ORGarchomp: Rough Skin, 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 Spe, Impish () Shore Up | Stealth Rock | Precipice Blades | Dragon Tail
[5]Diggersby: Huge Power, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Adamant () Fake Out | Extreme Speed | Precipice Blades | U-turn or Knock Off
[6]Kyurem-Black: Teravolt, 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe, Naive () Dragon Dance | Icicle Crash | Fusion Bolt | Earth Power
Here's a more Offensive approach:
[1]Alola Marowak: Lightning Rod, 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def, Adamant () V-create | Shadow Bone or Shadow Sneak | Shore Up | Stealth Rock
[2]Ash Greninja: Battle Bond, 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, Timid () Steam Eruption | Dark Pulse | Water Shuriken | Parting Shot
[3]Mega Venusaur: Thick Fat, 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD, Bold () Synthesis | Seed Flare | Hidden Power Fire | Spore
[4]Landorus-Therian: Intimidate, 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe, Impish () Defog | Roost | Precipice Blades | U-turn
[5]Diggersby: Huge Power, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Adamant () Fake Out | Extreme Speed | Precipice Blades | Ice Punch or Knock Off
[6]Tapu Koko: Electric Surge, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Jolly (/) Bolt Strike | Play Rough | U-turn | Brave Bird
I have found that other Pokemon can work in lieu of the main FWG + FakeSpeed Check core, but I don't consider them as effective as a cohesive unit. They are still worth exploring, however, and can fulfill the role of a generic FWG or FakeSpeed checker as needed.
Other adaptations:
[1]Mega Charizard X: Offense,Rotom-H: Balance / Offense,Heatran: Balance, Offense
[2]Rotom-W: Balance / Offense,Slowking: Balance / Offense
[3]Ferrothorn: Balance,Amoonguss: Balance,Tapu Bulu: Offense
[4]Ghost Silvally: Balance / Offense,Steel Silvally: Balance
Considerations:
- The main balance core of four is slow.
- The core has a bad match-up versus stall.
- There is no rapid spin option unless you fill that role in slots [5] or [6].
Threats to the main Core:
Thundurus: The standard NP + Taunt set can rip through all three Pokemon of the main FWG core and Celesteela or Landorus-T easily.
Kyurem-Black: Thanks to Teravolt, the mixed set (like in the first team) can land super effective hits against teamslots [1] - [4].
Bulky Sub Zygarde: Tapu Fini is your best bet to stop Zygarde with a combination of Haze and Moonblast. Otherwise it can setup on most of your team.
Choice Band Aerodactyl: If the core lacks Celesteela (and sometimes even with Celesteela), Banded Aerodactyl has a field day with your team.
Belly Drum Sweepers: As long as they carry Earthquake or Crunch for Marowak, Snorlax and Ursaring can clean out the core with ease should Celesteela be absent.
Suggestions? Recommendations? Questions? Have you used this core or something else similar? Share! And thanks for reading.
Also the Mega Garchomp minisprite with a regular Garchomp set is somewhat misleading.
EV
Banned deucer.
Both have their uses. I'll slash it.
Scald still burns Flyers, Levitators, and other Tapus.
Let's have a look at some not-so-common sets, shall we? ;)
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Thousand Arrows
- Shore Up
- Glare
This uses Zygarde's excellent natural bulk to its fullest. The ability may be ass and Garchomp might have better offensive presence, but Zygarde can make up for it with its access to Glare! Feel free to substitute Thousand Arrows for Dragon Tail to produce a nightmarish hazard-stacking para-shuffling abomination!
Tropius @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Brave Bird
Everyone loves Tropius!! Now this thing can be a """viable""" offensive threat with great STABs in Brave Bird and Wood Hammer, EQ for coverage and Harvest+Sitrus to mitigate recoil damage and provide passive recovery.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle
- Soak
Soak + Nuzzle to paralyse electric types, Steam Eruption for damage and a healthy burn chance on anything else that DARES to switch in! Obviously if you use Soak, the incoming Nuzzle is obvious - but you can use that to force switches while you rack up entry hazard damage on the opposing team and pivot around with STAB Volt Switch.
Yanma @ Life Orb
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hypnosis
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [something]
Now you may be thinking - why the hell would you use Yanma over Yanmega or, in fact, anything else? The answer is simple - Compound Eyes Hypnosis, Quiver Dance and STAB Hurricane! An alternative is Butterfree of course, with Sleep Powder over Hypnosis, but where's the fun in that?! Besides, Yanma can actually outspeed some things at +1, whereas Butterfree can't outspeed anything. This is a very nice gimmicky set if you want to try something fun and risky.
Mr. Mime @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Charge Beam
- Psystrike
- Focus Blast
Technician Draining Kiss is seriously underrated, and with Mr. Mime's awful HP stat you're bound to recover a high percentage against most things! Charge Beam is an option if you choose to go AV to make use of Mime's awesome Sp.Def - otherwise, Nasty Plot is a good option. Psystrike lets you annihilate Chansey and Focus Blast is for coverage. And that's it! It's slow so it appreciates Web support.
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Thousand Arrows
- Shore Up
- Glare
This uses Zygarde's excellent natural bulk to its fullest. The ability may be ass and Garchomp might have better offensive presence, but Zygarde can make up for it with its access to Glare! Feel free to substitute Thousand Arrows for Dragon Tail to produce a nightmarish hazard-stacking para-shuffling abomination!
Tropius @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer
- Brave Bird
Everyone loves Tropius!! Now this thing can be a """viable""" offensive threat with great STABs in Brave Bird and Wood Hammer, EQ for coverage and Harvest+Sitrus to mitigate recoil damage and provide passive recovery.
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle
- Soak
Soak + Nuzzle to paralyse electric types, Steam Eruption for damage and a healthy burn chance on anything else that DARES to switch in! Obviously if you use Soak, the incoming Nuzzle is obvious - but you can use that to force switches while you rack up entry hazard damage on the opposing team and pivot around with STAB Volt Switch.
Yanma @ Life Orb
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Hypnosis
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power [something]
Now you may be thinking - why the hell would you use Yanma over Yanmega or, in fact, anything else? The answer is simple - Compound Eyes Hypnosis, Quiver Dance and STAB Hurricane! An alternative is Butterfree of course, with Sleep Powder over Hypnosis, but where's the fun in that?! Besides, Yanma can actually outspeed some things at +1, whereas Butterfree can't outspeed anything. This is a very nice gimmicky set if you want to try something fun and risky.
Mr. Mime @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Charge Beam
- Psystrike
- Focus Blast
Technician Draining Kiss is seriously underrated, and with Mr. Mime's awful HP stat you're bound to recover a high percentage against most things! Charge Beam is an option if you choose to go AV to make use of Mime's awesome Sp.Def - otherwise, Nasty Plot is a good option. Psystrike lets you annihilate Chansey and Focus Blast is for coverage. And that's it! It's slow so it appreciates Web support.
Last edited:
EV
Banned deucer.
(Rotom-W and Electric Silvally can also do this. (Actually, any Rotom and Silvally can, but those are probably the best options.))
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle
- Soak
As the only fully evolved Water/Electric type, this is a delightful combination that only Lanturn can achieve! Soak + Nuzzle to paralyse electric types, Steam Eruption for damage and a healthy burn chance on anything else that DARES to switch in! Obviously if you use Soak, the incoming Nuzzle is obvious - but you can use that to force switches while you rack up entry hazard damage on the opposing team and pivot around with STAB Volt Switch.
On a side note, anyone going to try the frontier? I heard our very own Betathunder might give it a go, but seeing as he's on the frontier, we agreed to let him if he fights his matches Bof3.
`_>`
Last edited:
Here are a couple of fun sets.
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite / Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Dragon Ascent / Brave Bird
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
Aerodactyl is very strong in this meta due to it being able to either run Mega and abuse Tough Claws, or go banded, and fire off multiple Head Smashes and Brave Birds with no recoil. Accelerock allows it to have Priority, and Tough Claws boosts it even further, and Iron Head is there for coverage.
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Spectral Thief
- Return / Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
This is a Trick Room user, with 149 Speed and Trick Room, most things won't underspeed(?) this. Spectral Thief is a strong Ghost STAB, and can destroy setup sweepers, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch are priority to counter other priority spammers, and Knock Off is coverage in a good move.
Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Psychic Fangs
- Agility / Bullet Punch
So, Pure Power and High Jump Kick, along with priority STAB and Psychic Fangs. It's your choice between Agility and Bullet Punch.
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite / Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Dragon Ascent / Brave Bird
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
Aerodactyl is very strong in this meta due to it being able to either run Mega and abuse Tough Claws, or go banded, and fire off multiple Head Smashes and Brave Birds with no recoil. Accelerock allows it to have Priority, and Tough Claws boosts it even further, and Iron Head is there for coverage.
Banette @ Banettite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Trick Room
- Spectral Thief
- Return / Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
This is a Trick Room user, with 149 Speed and Trick Room, most things won't underspeed(?) this. Spectral Thief is a strong Ghost STAB, and can destroy setup sweepers, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch are priority to counter other priority spammers, and Knock Off is coverage in a good move.
Medicham-Mega @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- High Jump Kick
- Psychic Fangs
- Agility / Bullet Punch
So, Pure Power and High Jump Kick, along with priority STAB and Psychic Fangs. It's your choice between Agility and Bullet Punch.
david0895
Mercy Main Btw
Banettite is not released.
Also why not close combat on medicham?
Speaking of fun STABmons sets, something I've really been itching to try out more is Mega Steelix. I don't think it's the next S-tier threat given the prevalence of fighting- and ground-types, but it has some really solid matchups against Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu, KyuB, Aerodactyl, the Porygons, M-Pidgeot, Scizor, TTar, defensive Celesteela, Magearna without Aura Sphere, and physically biased Hoopa-U sets. Basically it eats VolTurn alive and does a good job at walling dragon-fairy-steel + fakespeed teams and birdspam teams, but has an abysmal time against FWG + fighting/ground teams.
Here are some interesting sets I thought of. They're not tried-and-true by any means, given that the ladder is non-existent, but they seem pretty decent at a glance.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves
- Dragon Tail / Roar
The main goal is to trap something and stack spikes on it. This achieves that by first spamming D-Tail to bait something to stay in on you, only to anchor shot it, setup spikes, and then kick it away again. I haven't really seen anyone abuse the trapping moves alongside a phasing move, and I thought that it was a pretty interesting mixup. The EVs are just the standard mixed defenses from Gen6. Steelix doesn't really need defensive investment, given that it's the physically bulkiest pokemon in the game at 75/230. If you decide to go for max defense and you manage to DTail out a +2 Lando that just EQ'd you, please send me the replay.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up
- Diamond Storm
- Heavy Slam / Anchor Shot
- Precipice Blades / Thousand Waves
This set is more of an offensive tank. It gets some cool rock tech in Diamond Storm (and Accelerock) through its prevo, Onix. It has a pretty hefty power upgrade over classic steelix, sitting at 125 base atk, and this set makes use of that. You can go for more BP or throw a trapping move in there if you want.
Overall, I'm really excited to use the re-released megas this gen, particularly this guy and M-Swampert who got huge buffs in the way of Shore Up. #FreeSTABmons
Here are some interesting sets I thought of. They're not tried-and-true by any means, given that the ladder is non-existent, but they seem pretty decent at a glance.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Shore Up
- Anchor Shot / Thousand Waves
- Dragon Tail / Roar
The main goal is to trap something and stack spikes on it. This achieves that by first spamming D-Tail to bait something to stay in on you, only to anchor shot it, setup spikes, and then kick it away again. I haven't really seen anyone abuse the trapping moves alongside a phasing move, and I thought that it was a pretty interesting mixup. The EVs are just the standard mixed defenses from Gen6. Steelix doesn't really need defensive investment, given that it's the physically bulkiest pokemon in the game at 75/230. If you decide to go for max defense and you manage to DTail out a +2 Lando that just EQ'd you, please send me the replay.
Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shore Up
- Diamond Storm
- Heavy Slam / Anchor Shot
- Precipice Blades / Thousand Waves
This set is more of an offensive tank. It gets some cool rock tech in Diamond Storm (and Accelerock) through its prevo, Onix. It has a pretty hefty power upgrade over classic steelix, sitting at 125 base atk, and this set makes use of that. You can go for more BP or throw a trapping move in there if you want.
Overall, I'm really excited to use the re-released megas this gen, particularly this guy and M-Swampert who got huge buffs in the way of Shore Up. #FreeSTABmons
To be honest, Tyranitar is a better choice, thanks to its ability boosting Shore Up recovery, and ability to beat Mandibuzz. it also gets Knock Off to cripple walls. it can also trap with Thousand Waves and has more rounded bulk than Steelix without taking up a mega slot.
The only thing Steelix has that Tyranitar doesn't, is the ability to trap airborne Pokemon (with Anchor Shot) and the fact that it's immune to Toxic. But outside of this, its special bulk is really low, and its typing is weak to two types that are mostly specially based (Fire and Water), it also a low base HP, which undermines its fantastic base Defense. You can maybe use both in the same team though, they synergize decently with each other.
The only thing Steelix has that Tyranitar doesn't, is the ability to trap airborne Pokemon (with Anchor Shot) and the fact that it's immune to Toxic. But outside of this, its special bulk is really low, and its typing is weak to two types that are mostly specially based (Fire and Water), it also a low base HP, which undermines its fantastic base Defense. You can maybe use both in the same team though, they synergize decently with each other.
I don't buy the argument that TTar has better typing than Steelix or better defensive utility. I honestly can't think of a worse defensive typing for this metagame, where the most powerful types are ground, steel, fairy, water, and grass, fighting is super common coverage, and uturn is on everything that learns it. The number of pokemon that can't hit TTar super effectively with their standard set is incredibly low. It's just PGon, KyuB (which just 2hkos everything but max/max mega with its STABs), Chansey, Nihilego, and a few things like Rotom, which completely shut it down anyways by my count. It has a negative matchup against literally everything in S or A+ right now, with Silvally-Ghost and Rotom-W being its best bets to trade out against. Steelix doesn't even have too much of a problem against Zard-Y and Heatran, since they risk getting OHKO'd by DStorm and [any ground move] respectively on the switch. Sure it doesn't wall everything. I'm not claiming it does, just that it's another option for bulkier teams that I think is worth using because of its insane bulk, reasonably good typing and matchup spread, and pretty good power, coverage, and utility.
FWIW, I think you're also underestimating how bulky this thing is (#1 in the game on the physical side). Max/Max+ M-TTar is comparable to Max/0 M-Steelix physically, and regular TTar can't even come close. Mixed bulk is nice, but there aren't that many mixed attackers to begin with.
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 264-312 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 186-222 (52.5 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 152-180 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
FWIW, I think you're also underestimating how bulky this thing is (#1 in the game on the physical side). Max/Max+ M-TTar is comparable to Max/0 M-Steelix physically, and regular TTar can't even come close. Mixed bulk is nice, but there aren't that many mixed attackers to begin with.
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 264-312 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar-Mega: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 186-222 (52.5 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Steelix-Mega: 164-194 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 152-180 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO