Approved The Cowardly Lion

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Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
This concept by The Unseen Potato approved for discussion. Is this concept worth pursuing? If so, what questions could we ask? How could we improve this? Everyone is free to discuss the following submission as if this was a concept discussion.
Name: The Cowardly Lion

General Description: A Pokémon that can utilize a Substitute to its maximum use and capacity, while still being a threat.

Justification: Most Substitute users are stallers, cowering behind a Substitute, inflicting status conditions, and healing at opportune moments. There is, of course, the uncommon standout like Aegislash, but, of course, it was banned to Ubers. We've never seen a Pokémon yet completely based around the Substitute, and I think it would be great to toy with the idea.

Questions to be Answered:
  • How can a Pokémon easily maintain a Substitute?
  • How can a Pokémon be guaranteed a chance to even put up a Substitute?
  • What are the best ways a Pokémon can regain its lost health in a Substitute, while still being a viable sweeper?
  • Does a Pokémon's inability to be affected by status conditions while behind a Substitute greatly affect the momentum of the battle?
  • Is the turn needed to put up a Substitute in the first place too risky, or does the opponent a free turn to set up?
Explanation: What happened to Substitute usage in OU? We had SubLoom and SubGar for a while, but these both phased out with the arrival of new mons. To be completely honest, I've forgotten that Breloom was even IN OU since the new entries into the Dex. It's a great concept: Lose 1/4 of your health to be completely impervious to attacks until an equivalent of the 25% is depleted by the opposing mon's moves. In that time, the one behind the Sub can easily recover the lost health with the right set. The problem is, all of these sets so far (or at least 80% of them) involve recovering through status moves, such as Soft-Boiled. What we really haven't seen yet is a Substitute Abuser, one who can heal its depleted health by the means of moves such as (these are just examples) Giga Drain or Drain Punch. I believe that this would be a great and interesting addition to the meta, for it explores a vein of strategy we haven't really seen yet. Basically, I'd like to whip out a Max Revive and give it to the move Substitute, as it is not only a great move but deserving of a slot in a good Pokémon's moveset.
 
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Qwilphish

when everything you touch turns to gold
I like this concept for the maximizing Substitute part and not for the sub sweeper as it is much more interesting to see what it will take for a DPP era Breloom to be recreated in ORAS. Will post more later but just want to get this out.
 

Mowtom

I'm truly still meta, enjoy this acronym!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
What we really haven't seen yet is a Substitute Sweeper, one who can heal its depleted health by the means of moves such as (these are just examples) Giga Drain or Drain Punch. I believe that this would be a great and interesting addition to the meta, for it explores a vein of strategy we haven't really seen yet.
I said this in the other thread and I'll say it again now...

Chesnaught is B+ rank and frequently uses a SubDrum set with Drain Punch. Its typing grants it 6 resistances and it can get immunities or more attacking power with its ability. Its physical bulk is good enough that physical attacks won't necessarily break the Substitute. What more could you ask for?
 
The biggest issues with Substitute is their nerf with sound-based moves, such as Bug Buzz and Hyper Voice, going straight past substitutes. That is the biggest issue why something like Substitute + Calm Mind Keldeo is pressured so easily by Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon. However, if we create a CAP around Substitute, we could easily give it Soundproof, so as to allow it to ignore sound-based attacks.
 

Unsee

so smart me, enjoy book so much
is an Artist
Okay, so maybe we don't need a new Sub Sweeper. As Qwilphish said, maybe we can pursue the perfect Sub utilizer, finding the way to maximize the usage without necessarily needing it to be offensive. That's was essentially the idea behind my original concept. I guess I leaned towards the offensive end a bit too much.
 

Ununhexium

I closed my eyes and I slipped away...
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I think an interesting route would be experimenting with Sub + (status move) Pokemon. For example, a common Pokemon in OU that utilizes a strategy like this is Mega Lopunny who often uses Substitute + Baton Pass or Substitute + Encore to either give a teammate a free switch in or to mess with its usual counters, respectively. This could explore the use of those strategies or even with Substitute + Leech Seed or even a new strategy entirely. Another thing that could be interesting is a Substitute + Status wallbreaker, such as what Jirachi used in UU before it rose to OU. It was efficient in that it could take Seismic Tosses because of its 101 HP Substitutes and spam Iron Head after Toxicing a wall to easily wear it down.

So yeah, while I think maybe a sweeper would be too ~ordinary~ (though I'm not inherently opposed to it, I always find CAP always tries to be original and I think creating a cool new Substitute sweeper would be cool), Substitute + status moves would definitely be a cool option to explore.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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Substitute has always had a variety of uses in OU, though the job of the substitute user has become increasingly difficult in ORAS, due to the rise of multi-hit users and sound attacks that bypass substitutes. In addition, the move has always had cool uses, and the discussion prior just goes to show how many cool strats exist with sub, from subseed to subpass to subencore to even more. Especially with the use of set up moves, pinch berries, and even things like Poison Heal. I'm going to reword "while still delivering powerful hits" to be "while still being a threat," and change the focus of the concept from Substitute Sweeper to Substitute Abuser, but otherwise...


Approved 1/2
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
substitute + soundproof won't let it be hit by moves like bug buzz, hyper voice and booomburst, and can be used with a pokemon sporting an excellent typing and solid bulk or even fast and solid bulk, but then again it should have access to a plethora off status, pseudo hazards moves, etc.
 
In order to provide the most amount of pressure behind a Substitute, you need to be able to pressurize most checks to Substitute users, including Sound-based attackers like Mega Gardevoir / Volcarona, Taunt users and phazers like Heatran, and a way of beating or pressuring Chansey from not staying in on you and breaking your Substitutes with Seismic Toss. I am not necessarily afraid of this CAP being able to set up a sweep behind a Substitute, as long as it can use the Substitute in other ways, like using offensive pressure in general or status to wear down the opponent. I should state though that in order to avoid being sold to Soundproof from the very beginning, we should try to focus on making sure that the CAP is able to pressure most users of sound-based attacks or be able to beat the majority of them.
 
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