Ubers Analysis Discussion Thread

Fireburn

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Double posting, but this is about cs yveltal:
I was thinking of making Choice Scarf Yveltal 326 Speed (max w/ nature) because of its ability to KO +1 Mence at 80% with Foul Play. The real number I use is 321 Speed just because 320 is what Salamence can use without sacrificing a very large chunk of its utility. I can't use that real number because it would be counted as creep but using max speed just for that is a better reason than "more power" and "checking E-killer when it has full health" (which never happens). I personally like it better but I thought I would bring it to everyone's attention a day before I change it for other opinions. It was just an interesting quirk that was brought to my attention the other day by none other than Mr. Lord Outrage.

I may or may not have posted this in the wrong thread before it ended up here. :pirate:
Not sure about this, I'm pretty sure Salamence can easily pull 30 EVs out of Attack/HP (combo of both maybe) to creep Yveltal if this becomes commonplace (which becomes speed creep which we generally want to avoid in analyses).
 

Inspirited

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I would be using 326 Spe on the analysis (which is max) in order to avoid the creep police. Mence technically can put in a bit more Speed (which may warrant just running 326 for the best odds anyways), but I'm positive that this will be more useful than running the bulk that is on there assuming Yveltal will take no damage all game until E-killer threatens you (it will take damage, trust me here).
 

Minority

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Nayrz, Minority Suspect, and I recently went through this list of proposed changes on the Ubers Dex.
Here's a list of things we already changed (because they were simple and minor):

Arceus-Dragon: intro reworked to be more concise

Arceus-Fairy: Renamed first set to Offensive Utility, added Toxic slash after Earth Power

Arceus-Fighting: Stone Edge is move 3 and IB/TWave is move 4

Darkrai: NP unslashed, slot 4 is thunder/sludge bomb, sucker punch added to oo, focus sash upgraded to item slash

Kangaskhan: Adamant slashed (was in set details before)


Here is a list of proposed changes that could use more discussion:
  • Arceus-Normal: Replace current Refresh set with a general bulky Adamant set with Recover/coverage in move 4 with a Lum slash (possibly Magic Coat)
  • Arceus-Dragon: should we remove CM set
  • Arceus-Grass: Full revamp replacing CM with 3 Atks + Recover (GK/IB/SEdge/Recover with Fire Blast in OO)
  • Arceus-Ground: Nayrz is gonna write up a skeleton for a special set
  • Arceus-Water: Mention of 168 Speed EVs (still Bold nature) for Jolly Rayquaza
  • Blaziken: Protect should not be slashed with anything, move 4 is BP/SEdge/SD with Knock Off and HP Ice in OO, LO first item, shoud Mega Stone be moved to OO? Prose needs to be reworked since it kind of oversells Blaziken.
  • Dialga: Offensive SR first set, Stealth Rock should not be a slash with anything, move 4 should be Thunder / Fire Blast, Earth Power in moves maybe. Should Defensive and Scarf be removed?
  • Giratina-O: Toxic in moves of Hex set (Nayrz and I dont think it should be slashed)
  • Ho-Oh: CB first set, switch EVs to max Speed and Atk with Adamant/Jolly, LO has Substitute slashed in 4th move, potential mention of Careful nature on LO set to tank +2 Xern HP Rock
  • Kangaskhan: Should Ice Punch be added as a slash/moves (currently OO)?
  • Kyogre: Reorder sets to Defensive -> CM -> Physical, CM 3 Atks renamed to just Calm Mind. slashing is now Calm Mind/Origin Pulse/Ice Beam (Blizzard dropped completely or moved to OO)/Thunder or TWave with HP Ground in moves, maybe use a faster EV spread
  • Mawile: Foul Play upgraded to moves mention?
  • Xerneas: Slashing changed to Geo/MB/Focus Blast | Aroma/Thunder | HP Rock with HP Ground to moves, specs above AoA, axe defensive set. Should HP Rock be slashed first on Geomancy? Should Rest + Geo be put into OO or as a "cheese" option in Moves on the Calm Mind set?
  • Yveltal: Knock Off primary slash in Slot 4 of LO set? Maybe use a faster EV spread?
We would appreciate more input from the playerbase on this list of proposed changes.
Was all this just forgotten about? I think it's about time this stuff went through.

Here's what we can do I guess:

- Post in index thread that a bulky EKiller set needs to be written, then replace the Refresh set with it once it's done
- Drop the CM set on Arceus-Dragon
- Post in index thread that Arceus-Grass needs a revamp
- Arceus-Ground is done
- Add the Arceus-Water that runs higher Speed via direct edit
- Make Blazikenite an OO item and rework the slashing and prose via site edits
- Make the Dialga changes directly, keep the defensive set as second, move the Scarf set to OO
- Moves mention of Toxic for Hex Giratina-O
- Make all the Ho-Oh proposals via direct edits
- Add Ice Punch on Mega Kanga to moves
- Make all the Primal Kyogre changes via edits, Blizzard is OO, HP Ground in moves
- Slash Foul Play on Mega Mawile and add the necessary writing
- Use that first Xern slashing with HP Ground in moves, move Specs above AoA, don't axe the defensive set. Rest + Geo stays in OO because that was what was decided on
- Add Knock Off for Yveltal as a slash, edit in a faster EV spread at the very least in set details
 

shrang

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- Post in index thread that a bulky EKiller set needs to be written, then replace the Refresh set with it once it's done
Do we really need a separate set for this? A mention of a bulky spread in the set itself should suffice IMO
 

MZ

And now for something completely different
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I noticed that Gira-O still has twave and hex in the last two lines of OO, probably before that became a set. Didn't notice anything else but I submitted a change removing those lines.
 

Minority

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Because the slashing was recently added via direct edit, but the person that did the edit forgot to also rename the set to "Special Attacker".
 
OK so with the VR thread having debate on mons generally regarded to have fallen out of favor/viability since the time of their analysis, I think the best way to determine their fate on the VR is to have the QC team re-assess the mons and decide if the analysis should be removed (and therefore be removed from the VR thread). Concerns about valid contributions being removed are to be expected but bear in mind that it will only be removed from the on-site dex, not deleted from the forums. They are still counted towards badges!

Anyway heres the easiest way to get this resolved: Post Keep/Abstain/Remove on these similar to a suspect test and add reasoning to the post if you wish, then I'll tally the votes and act accordingly on Sunday. If there's no post by Sunday I'll assume neutrality on the subject.

Tentacruel
Clefable
Mega Metagross

tagging QC:
Fireburn
Hack
dice
shrang
Minority Suspect
WreckDra

My thoughts:

Tentacruel: Remove
Clefable: Keep
Mega Metagross: Abstain
 
Tentacruel: Remove

Tentacruel fulfills a certain niche in being able to reliably anti lead Deo-S and possibly set up Toxic Spikes to assure a match up advantage vs sample HO. Paired with Gengar, Tentacruel is practically guaranteed to keep SR off the field which is why Steelskittys old team was rather successful. However I feel there are more things than Tentacruel that gives sample HO a hard time and in general Tentacruel is just really bad. Toxic Spikes are certainly not the best in the meta either... Gengar absorbs, Rest Xern doesn't give a damn, Recover Ekiller sits pretty comfortably on a layer etc. It's simply not the almost certain sweeper killer it once was either due to these metagame trends. Tentacruel never really checked anything offensive, something which is not affordable in the tier. Sure it can be run with said Gengar+Lugia to almost always beat HO but then Lugia becomes hard to support vs any team with SR Pdon as Tentacruel won't secure a hazardless field.

Clefable: Keep

While Clefable isn't a great special wall it is a shaky staller against both Xerneas and Arceus-Normal with its sdef set. Combine that with the fact that Darkrai tend to run Thunder and you actually have a couple of offensive threats it beats. It isn't a great mon by any means but it has low opportunity cost and some usefulness.

Mega Metagross: Remove

While I thought Meta was OK off using a set consisting of Toxic/Mash/BP/Rock Slide due to having a few good perks over the usual "niche steel" pack (namely beating Ho-oh, priority to pick off Darkrai), Meta is just impossible to build with. The only dark resist that it pairs well with is Xerneas and since you usually want to go offensive with such a mon the team becomes weak to Ekiller almost every time. The opportunity cost of not running Mence/Gar on offense is that huge and I could not build with it.
 

Fireburn

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Tentacruel: Remove

Tentacruel sucks. It's meant to be a more defensive Cloyster (TSpikes + Spin) for bulky teams backed by Gengar to help keep off hazards, but the main issue here is that it checks basically nothing on its own. You're basically sacrificing a teamslot for Toxic Spikes which aren't really good enough anymore to make using Tentacruel worth it. You'd generally be better off just using regular Spikes with lots of Toxic/Wisp on things that can actually provide good defensive synergy.

Clefable: Keep

Borderline because of crummy stats but with Sludge Bomb on Darkrai becoming much rarer nowadays I can see why people might want to use it again. Just good enough to be viable, keep it away from Gengar though.

Mega Metagross: Abstain

I want to test it a bit more before I make a judgment call on it. It has some good qualities that I think can make it worthwhile, but building with it is pretty tricky indeed.
 
tenta is not good. tspikes blow in a metagame where gengar is so dominant, not to mention that gengar kinda dicks tenta by trapping it in general. it can't touch pdon, has to rely on scald to gimp gira-o, and it's set up bait for the myriad sweepers that roam the tier. remove.

clefable is also not really that great either, but i've seen it used viably and it's unique enough for an analysis.

metagross is weird. in the current state of the meta it's a mence check and mm/bp/boltbeam punch is probably the best set. it could only be slotted on a few teams decently and even then it's not good... i'm leaning toward yes but i'll let u all decide.
 

Inspirited

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Tentacruel: remove
Its tspiking ability isnt very useful and it gets abused by well over half the metagame atm. It causes far more problems and brings almost nothing positive to a team.

Clefable: keep i guess
It does something rather unique at least, even if it is awfully mediocre at doing it. I have never used it personally but I trust the other qc members opinions on this.

Metagross: dunno yet

It's really weird because it really wants the impossible Mega Mence partner. There might be a Gira-O build that it works on, we'll see. Ghostceus is another thing to explore with it, but like Hack said, there is a massive E-killer problem where it is present if you don't use a tech mon that also brings its own problems to the table.
 

Minority

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Tentacruel: Abstain
Clefable: Keep
Mega Metagross: Abstain

I've already talked to Nayrz, Fireburn, and some others about these three mons. My philosophy on what we give analyses tends to lean more towards being inclusive, but I can't provide strong arguments otherwise for keeping Tentacruel or Mega Metagross. There have been passable teams utilizing them earlier in ORAS, but the bottom line is that they just aren't very good Pokemon.

As for Clefable it has enough attributes to be worth using here and there. Being able to check a few major threats while providing unique support is why. The significant drop in the use of a Poison move on Mega Gengar or Darkrai also helps.
 
I was giving extra time for those abstaining on Metagross to make a more solid opinion but judging from the additional comments the consensus is clear. Clefable will stay, Metagross and Tentacruel will be removed. Expect a VR update later on.
 

Six Trails

formerly Analytic_
Not sure if this is the place to post this, but in Other Options for Arceus-Dragon, Spacial Rend is mentioned as a move option on the CM set, which was deleted.

EDIT: The Calm Mind set is actually mentioned a lot in Other Options.
 
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Freeroamer

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I submitted changes, it left Other Options kind of sparse but I feel this reflects pretty well on the mon. Just waiting on a site staff to approve and cache.
 
reg: Mega-Mewtwo-Y

"Electro Ball hits Mega Sableye extremely hard, OHKOing it after a Calm Mind boost, but has no other targets otherwise. "
Wait WHAT. While using the set given above and the set of Mega-Sableye on its analysis, I have come to the following calc:

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Electro Ball (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Sableye: 195-230 (64.3 - 75.9%)
252+ SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Electro Ball (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Sableye: 215-253 (70.9 - 83.4%)


Even after changing the nature to modest, the chance of ohko'ing is 0%. Even if we add up rocks over that, the damage is just off by 5%
on the other hand:

0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 350-414 (99.1 - 117.2%)

Firstly, are we actually afraid enough of mega-sableye? Is it THAT HUGE of a threat to spend a moveslot specially for it? Even if it is so, the move barely looks functional to me. Have i missed out some EVs or something? Can someone explain this to me pls?
 

Six Trails

formerly Analytic_
It OHKOs after a Calm Mind boost, which you didn't take into account in your calcs.

Personally, I think Electro Ball is pointless as Fire Blast 2HKOs 78% of the time and also hits Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Klefki.
 
It OHKOs after a Calm Mind boost, which you didn't take into account in your calcs.

Personally, I think Electro Ball is pointless as Fire Blast 2HKOs 78% of the time and also hits Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, and Klefki.
k my bad. Still a super-pointless idea given that mewtwo gets ohko'd by foul play.:pirate:
 
I noticed that the Smogon's strategy Pokedex suggests Technician as the ability for the base form of Mega Scizor.
But since you would Mega evolve it before attacking, isn't Light Metal better?
In the rare case Scizor needs to switch into a Low Kick, Light metal will reduce the damage it takes. Since nobody in Uber use Heavy Slam or Heat Crash, the reduced weight should not be a concern.
 
Mega Scizor's Ubers analysis is currently being called into question and is looking to be removed entirely so far as many (including QC members) think it is not viable enough to warrant an analysis. If it does stick around then yes, Light Metal is technically the better ability and would likely be changed.
 

Xayah

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Could Substitute get a mention in Mawile's analysis? I am not the best Ubers player in the world, but I do have some experience using Mega Mawile and I really liked Substitute on it in stead of the currently mentioned Baton Pass. It helps Mawile avoid burns as well and sometimes allows it to get an extra hit in, which with its huge attack stat could be important
 
Gengar's needs to be updated ; The movesets as well as the description, which notes that Levitate grants it 3 immunities.

Gengar's defensive typing along with its initial ability Levitate grants it three immunities, allowing it to come into battle a bit more easily.
 
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