Wallbreaker Wall

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nyttyn

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Hi I approved this concept because huge wallbreakers like hoopa-U and Phione are kind of a big deal right now - ORAS OU's gotten so offensive such behemoths are a huge pain in defensive team's side.

Discuss if this concept sounds enjoyable, what flaws it might have, how we might address those flaws, any changes the concept might need, or if it's not a concept CAP would be suited for doing here.
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Description
A Pokemon that handles some of the most dangerous and teambuilding-restrictive wallbreakers in the metagame.

Justification
The primary justification here is for its massive potential impact on defensive play and versatility in teambuilding. However, I also believe there are significant learning opportunies inherent in the concept (see below).

Questions to be Answered
-How would the metagame cope with defensive play without the easy pressure afforded by mons like Hoopa-U or Manaphy? Would other inferior stallbreakers simply rise to take their place, or would it lead to more cohesive whole-team approaches to breaking defense?

-Would this also potentially aggravate the existing match-up issue (if it becomes impossible to adequately prepare for both HO and stall, for instance), or lessen it (much easier to at least check relevant offensive threats)?

-Would it be possible to create a defensive Pokemon which primarily addresses specific threats, rather than just being a supreme all-round wall?

Explanation
I'm completely sick of building defensive teams in this meta, because there are just too many threats. You can cover most of them, but there's always something which can singlehandedly beat you. The primary issue, as I see it, are Pokemon like Manaphy which place insane limitations on teambuilding. I don't believe it should be possible to beat non-offensive teams in general just by throwing on a single Pokemon, whether its RD Manaphy, Hoopa-U, M-Heracross, Gothitelle, etc. Hence, my concept; something which can cover many of the most significant of these threats, in order to ease teambuilding.

I envisage selecting a short list of significant single-mon wallbreakers to be dealt with and creating a Pokemon that gives substantial counterplay against them. The difficulty would lie in making it capable of handling the chosen wallbreakers, without simply making an overpowered general defensive Pokemon. Obviously, it may be difficult to handle certain threats such as Manaphy without pigeon-holing the concept as an Unaware mon; so in that case, I'd prefer that Manaphy wasn't included on the list, and the CAP focused on other threats.

Edit: copy and pasta because ginga raised some important issues:

Here's an example. Drapion almost completely walls standard Hoopa-U sets with its otherwise-poor Poison/Dark typing (only being held back by its poor special bulk which lets it be 2HKO'd by LO Focus Blast). If we hypothesize a Poison/Dark mon with strong special bulk, then you could compress the ability to counter Hoopa, CM MG Fable, Gengar, and potentially M-Gardevoir, into one Pokemon. At the same time, Poison/Dark is a pretty poor typing outside of these specific roles, and this hypothetical CAP wouldn't require extreme stats or general walling capacity to pull this role off. If I'm teambuilding and I have access to this, then maybe I can also afford to invest in a check to that HP Fire Manaphy that otherwise 6-0's me. Similarly you could do something like a Water/Ghost with great physical but terrible special defense, which could potentially counter/check things like M-Heracross, Zard-X, Victini, and M-Medicham, while not beating things outside its scope such as Keldeo. Basically, there are a huge number of really interesting options.

I don't want to remove wallbreakers from the game. Bulky offense would still be able to run any of the pantheon of wallbreakers not beaten by this CAP to pressure defensive teams. The point is that, by compressing the ability to beat some major wallbreakers into a single Pokemon, we'd be (hopefully) mitigating the extremely common issue of the defensive team just having nothing for a particular threat. I just think this is a fascinating route to go down for a CAP.
 
Are we trying to be a defensive wall to Hoopa Unbound, as well as other notable wallbreakers? Unlike set-up sweepers, I believe wallbreakers do not necessarily need to accumulate boosts, and can attack right off the bat. Hoopa-U, as stated previously, is the most notable example.
 
Hi I approved this concept because huge wallbreakers like hoopa-U and Phione are kind of a big deal right now - ORAS OU's gotten so offensive such behemoths are a huge pain in defensive team's side.
Uhh...

The way I see it, there are two ways to approach this concept: A wall with excellent stats/typing for taking down wallbreakers like said, or a defensive Pokemon with enough offensive presence to threaten common wallbreakers. I think that it would be interesting to make a wall that can take down wallbreakers because there will have to be special effort taken in order to not just invest heavily in defense and HP and call it a day. The first option would be very interesting because even though it handles the common wallbreakers in today's metagame, it could cause a flow of new and innovative wallbreakers from lower in the viability rankings which defensive teams can handle easier thus balancing the metagame.

The second option I put forth is also of slight interest. My idea is that the CAP uses an underused method of crippling its foes such as Trick, Haze/Clear Smog, or even Wonder/Magic/Trick Room. These moves could cripple certain wallbreakers because they no longer have the tools or the boosts needed in order to wallbreak properly. However, I want to put emphasis on Wonder Room. Wonder Room swaps the Defense and Special Defense of all Pokemon on the field. This makes it so that if the CAP has one good defensive stat, then it can just Wonder Room on a wallbreaker so that the wallbreaker is now attacking the CAP's strong defensive stat. Most wallbreakers do not go mixed, even Pokemon like Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B will usually use three moves of one attacking type and one move of the other. Even mixed wallbreakers can be taken down with proper prediction. Most other wallbreakers such as Manaphy, Charizard-Y, and Mega Heracross are heavily inclined towards one attacking type or the other.

This concept looks like it will be interesting and fun to pursue. There are many directions we can go and many challenges we can face. Overall, if this project gets approved I will be looking forward to a great project.
 
The problem with something like Wonder Room is that it completely kills momentum and the trade off is not worth it because you have to switch your defenses back each time your opponent throws in the next threat. I feel like this CAP would be better off having some way to keep momentum up like U-Turn or Volt Switch. That way it switches in, attempts to cripple the things it's supposed to wall, and then jumps back out.
 
I'm not sure how something like this is supposed to work. So our goal is to shut down the most common wallbreakers in the game, but I'm not even sure its possible to just wall Hoopa and Manaphy (Note, not a Phione). Hoopa alone requires something to wall Hyperspace, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, Dark Pulse, Psychic, and Focus Blast, some of which might even be boosted by a Nasty Plot. And that's not even taking into account the Tail Glow-boosted Scalds Manaphy is throwing around. Furthermore, how do we intend to chip these guys? Manaphy is immune to status, and Hoopa can run Drain Punch+Substitute. You need offensive pressure to get rid of these two, but walls don't really have that in high abundance, what with being walls.
 
I'm not sure how something like this is supposed to work. So our goal is to shut down the most common wallbreakers in the game, but I'm not even sure its possible to just wall Hoopa and Manaphy (Note, not a Phione). Hoopa alone requires something to wall Hyperspace, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, Dark Pulse, Psychic, and Focus Blast, some of which might even be boosted by a Nasty Plot. And that's not even taking into account the Tail Glow-boosted Scalds Manaphy is throwing around. Furthermore, how do we intend to chip these guys? Manaphy is immune to status, and Hoopa can run Drain Punch+Substitute. You need offensive pressure to get rid of these two, but walls don't really have that in high abundance, what with being walls.
You would theoretically want to be able to stop these Pokemon even if they are boosted by using Unaware / Priority Haze / any form of security against boosting. Walling a +0 Hoopa-U would require a hefty amount of bulk, but considering that this CAP is likely going to be quite bulky, this is not necessarily unprecedented.
 
If we have offensive pressure, wouldn't we give up Speed due to our significant bulk? That wouldn't be a problem if we only use one offensive stat, such as an Attack stat no higher than base 100 to threaten Hoopa-U, which has only base 60 Defense. Not sure if 100 is high enough for a wall to have offensive presense, but it's a wall. What can I tell you?
 
One thing to note about the two big breakers, Hoopa and Manaphy, is they're both weak to pivot moves, U-turn and Volt Switch. We don't even need much attack to make U-turn hit Hoopa hard, but Volt Switch is different since Manaphy has great special bulk and only a 2x weakness.

I think these moves should be considered if beating Hoopa and Manaphy through offensive presence is ideal; however, we run the risk of this Pokemon becoming an offensive pivot rather than a defensive stalwart. Although we're considering a Mega Pokemon for this... perhaps it isn't so far-fetched to give the CAP a little bit of power to beat these threats reliably.
 

Bughouse

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I'm sure people already know this but either Hoopa-U or Manaphy is likely to be tested soon. Might be a bit silly to base a CAP around walling one of these unwallable Pokemon in that case.
 
In that case, would it be possible to make a Wall That Cannot Be Broken (I think that's a better name than Wallbreaker Wall) that is meant to wall all wallbreakers, rather than just these two. It seems rather unrealistic.

Perhaps it is meant to somehow prevent wallbreakers from wallbreaking, rather than just flat out walling their awesome power.
 
In that case, would it be possible to make a Wall That Cannot Be Broken (I think that's a better name than Wallbreaker Wall) that is meant to wall all wallbreakers, rather than just these two. It seems rather unrealistic.

Perhaps it is meant to somehow prevent wallbreakers from wallbreaking, rather than just flat out walling their awesome power.
If it walls all wallbreakers, then it would be nearly impossible to break through. The purpose of the concept is not to wall everything, but to wall a small number of Pokemon that most teams have difficulty walling without making it impossible to break through.
 
If it walls all wallbreakers, then it would be nearly impossible to break through. The purpose of the concept is not to wall everything, but to wall a small number of Pokemon that most teams have difficulty walling without making it impossible to break through.
I see your point. My last sentence was a kind of suggestion that maybe this CAP should look to disrupt the wallbreaker's wallbreaking ability rather than simply toughing out the wallbreaker's powerful hits. For example, Manaphy could be annoyed by something like Topsy-Turvy (obviously, this example has many problems, e.g. Topsy-Turvy is a signature move). Something that disrupts only the very powerful, rather than just everything?
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
a few things:

I'm sure people already know this but either Hoopa-U or Manaphy is likely to be tested soon. Might be a bit silly to base a CAP around walling one of these unwallable Pokemon in that case.
tehy likes this post

maybe there needs to be a pipeline to the OU council as well at certain stages of CAP, just to make sure a banning doesn't cock it all up? (is ginga council?)

I'm not sure how something like this is supposed to work. So our goal is to shut down the most common wallbreakers in the game, but I'm not even sure its possible to just wall Hoopa and Manaphy (Note, not a Phione). Hoopa alone requires something to wall Hyperspace, Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt, Dark Pulse, Psychic, and Focus Blast, some of which might even be boosted by a Nasty Plot. And that's not even taking into account the Tail Glow-boosted Scalds Manaphy is throwing around. Furthermore, how do we intend to chip these guys? Manaphy is immune to status, and Hoopa can run Drain Punch+Substitute. You need offensive pressure to get rid of these two, but walls don't really have that in high abundance, what with being walls.
poison / dark @ water absorb + high SpD + Gunk Shot

but yeah, hoopa is the taker of souls, hard to see a lot of ways to keep it on lock.
 

AM

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I'll put my two cents in here saying if there is going to be a suspect don't base your entire premise on the future of one happening soon. Do whatever you want and go from there. Also......
Explanation
Some words here.... I'm completely sick of building defensive teams in this meta, because there are just too many threats. You can cover most of them, but there's always something which can singlehandedly beat you.... More words here
Well yeah, if you build a team with 6 fat walls and 0 counterplay to wall-breakers you're gonna have a million problems. I don't particular agree with your line of thinking what so ever nytyyn cause this is absolutely not the case and to put it bluntly is a display of bad team-building on your own accord than a direct correlation to any sort of perceived matchup cliche that the community likes to establish themselves. I don't want to make HO weak to Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Mega Kazam, and Mega Aerodactyl. I don't want to build a defensive minded team taking into account Manaphy, Hoopa-U, Kyurem-B, insert the 30+ Pokemon that could qualify themselves as a wallbreaker all at the same time. When your means of counterplay is becomes a moot point entirely then it becomes a problem, and even then it's questionable depending on who you ask. Until then you're gonna have to adapt a bit and go beyond this linear line of thinking that a 6-0 is an inevitably in the ORAS OU meta when tournament records and consistency by players would say otherwise. As far as mana and hoopa-u goes they were brought up in policy review as potential candidates based on community input. These things, nor really any past suspects except for perhaps stuff like M-Salamence back when ORAS started isn't 6-0ing anything against a good foundation.

What do you actually hope to accomplish with this? You wall two pokemon in theory when the practicality and the nuances of the game itself will always make the definitions of checks and counters unrealistically, granted they're nice to establish to a newbie, but don't mean anything in the long run cause of how battles actually work. You centralize stall to an even bigger point where the offenses will now pack more wallbreakers to break w/e it is, cause if you're trying to make something to block both you're gonna have the collateral damage of blocking a TON of stuff. I found myself sort of just lurking the forums but this OP I found quite ironic cause a lot of it just touches every single cliche of a player who doesn't like ORAS OU, blames matchup, blames threats for not being able to cover them all, the same old.

Just thought I'd chime in after reading the justification for this. I don't know what exactly this will teach or enhance the meta-game but don't mind me after this post I suppose .3.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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I don't particular agree with your line of thinking what so ever nytyyn cause this is absolutely not the case and to put it bluntly is a display of bad team-building on your own accord
AM this isn't my concept for the record, I just approve concepts for more in-depth discussion.
 
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