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New OU List (September 2010)
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
Modest 252 SpA/220 HP/36 Spe with Seed Flare/Earth Power/Rest/HP Fire is what I use, though the analysis says Specs and LO sets are more popular.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/shaymin
Not everyone that plays on shoddy are pros. i.e. noobs that can't choose pokemon.
It's not about countering, it's about whether you would consider something viable in a metagame about Scizor. There are plenty of ways to stop Scizor, that's why it's not "broken," but . . .
Would you want to use Bronzong without Explosion, outside the lead, knowing that Scizor can switch into it at will and U-Turn the crap out of it for basically nothing each time?
Would you want to try to use Weavile or Ambipom as your predominant sweepers, knowing they really have no way of stopping Scizor from simply switching in and U-Turning the crap out of them (or their teammates)?
Would you really try to go for leftovers DD tyranitar or Rock Polick Rhyperior as your late game sweeper?
"Centralizing" is not about can be stopped, but the capacity to control what is or is not viable in the metagame. Scizor has strong influence on the viability of other pokemon.
Gengar is, by the way, an example of a pokemon who can overcome its scizor issues. Focus Blast gives it perfect coverage in just 2 moves and posses a serious threat to the metal bug. With 2 move perfect coverage, Gengar can include moves like Substitute/Protect/HP Fire in its moveset, that can really throw a wrench in Scizor's plans. Besides, if a considerable portion of gengars are running non-perfect speed just to HP Fire Scizor, or carrying Protect just to scout between Pursuit/Bullet Punch instead of, that's pretty centralizing to me! I mean if Gengar didn't have to dedicate move slots to beating Scizor, it could bust out things like Thunderbolt (which was once on almost all Gengar) Explosion, Destiny Bond, W-o-W, etc. etc.
In other words, pokemon like Gengar, Latias and Starmie who can still bash Scizor's face in if necessary would not be cut (but would still be forced to adapt), but pokemon like Weavile who issues doing anything to Scizor, have real problems.
Compare these effects of Scizor again to say, Flygon. Big difference in degree of centralization, despite both being top 10 OU pokemon. Even Heatran is probably not as influential on the viability of other pokemon as Scizor.
Problem with Electvire is that it -still- cannot hit hard enough, even if it's Mixed with Expert Belt or Life Orb or something stupid like that. It's just annoying because every newcomer would try to use Gyrados/Electvire or something. :/
Dusknoir...Okay, I'll admit, Dusknoir could be a lot better. But I still find that he's a great Poke that often finds ways into my team over Rotom. Namely more bulk and support options. Yes, for more offensive teams, Rotom is much better, but cut the tubby ghost some slack. :/
The main reason noobs use Electivire is because "it's super effective!"
It doesn't help that since it's rare in high-level play, noobs can often get Motor Drive boosts out of nowhere and potentially sweep. Not to mention very few teams prepare for physical Electric-types, anyway.
It doesn't help that since it's rare in high-level play, noobs can often get Motor Drive boosts out of nowhere and potentially sweep. Not to mention very few teams prepare for physical Electric-types, anyway.
Weavile is severely underated. The key is that you have to be on top of your mindgames and predict accordingly. You need to know when to pursuit or attack or low kick the incoming scizor/heatran. I personally think Weavile only becomes a liability if you slap a choice item on it. At that point its setup fodder. There are a few pokemon that give it genuine trouble, but it makes a decent alternate sweeper. On the team I was using I had both an infernape and weavile. Weavile was mostly there to pursuit starmie and gengar who gave ape trouble. But I often found that even after ape went down that weavile has pretty damn good type coverage to pick off the remaining stragglers.
Does anyone know when Heracross is going to be allowed on the UU ladder?
Next week, after this coming weekend's tour.Disposable Puppets said:
Lol. It's true Weavile is viable, but only as a Dragonite check, which shouldn't be needed anyway. It isn't a useful sweeper because:
a) Compared to other physical threats (Scizor, Metagross, Gyarados etc.) Weavile has a low attack. Gengar has similar stats, but is useful in that it can beat Blissey, and Ghost/Poison isn't a terrible typing. Gengar is also immune to Ground, 4x resistant to U-Turn, neutral to Stealth Rock and immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. The current pool of physical attackers is extremely saturated as there isn't a catch-all physical wall.
b) Ice/Dark is an awful typing. Not only is it hit for 25% by Stealth Rock, it is also weak to Fighting (any special sweeper, Lucario) , Fire, Bug (U-turn), and Steel (Bullet Punch) It's only safe switch in outside of revenging is into a Psychic-type attack, and we all know how common they are.Weavile's terrible defenses and weaknesses to some of the most common types mean that outside of the lead position it basically can't function. Gengar once again shares this problem, but it only has three weaknesses, none of which are ultra-common attacking types, and none of which is Rock, the single worst weakness to have.
c) 120 base Attack isn't big. It's only safe way of boosting this is Swords Dance, as it cannot safely run a Choice set due to its inability to switch repeatedly, and it doesn't have enough bulk to survive more than 1 K.O.
b) Ice/Dark is an awful typing. Not only is it hit for 25% by Stealth Rock, it is also weak to Fighting (any special sweeper, Lucario) , Fire, Bug (U-turn), and Steel (Bullet Punch) It's only safe switch in outside of revenging is into a Psychic-type attack, and we all know how common they are.Weavile's terrible defenses and weaknesses to some of the most common types mean that outside of the lead position it basically can't function. Gengar once again shares this problem, but it only has three weaknesses, none of which are ultra-common attacking types, and none of which is Rock, the single worst weakness to have.
c) 120 base Attack isn't big. It's only safe way of boosting this is Swords Dance, as it cannot safely run a Choice set due to its inability to switch repeatedly, and it doesn't have enough bulk to survive more than 1 K.O.
tl;dr, Weavile's bad.
Weaville isn't bad, it's just not a good sweeper. It's a good scout and a good revenge killer, but you're completely misusing him if you want to kill lots of stuff.
It's weaknesses don't matter - it dies to most neutral hits anyway. Weaville is a hit and run Pokemon. It's good at trapping stuff, especially really dangerous psychics like Starmie (if you have Gyarados, Dragonite and Infernape, for example, on your team, Weaville is great because all of these can be killed by Starmie).
It's good for killing off particular threats - dragons and psychics in particular, and can be a really good team player. It just can't be thrown onto any team.
It's weaknesses don't matter - it dies to most neutral hits anyway. Weaville is a hit and run Pokemon. It's good at trapping stuff, especially really dangerous psychics like Starmie (if you have Gyarados, Dragonite and Infernape, for example, on your team, Weaville is great because all of these can be killed by Starmie).
It's good for killing off particular threats - dragons and psychics in particular, and can be a really good team player. It just can't be thrown onto any team.
It's not a sweeper and you're seriously misplaying Weavile if you use it as one. Just reading through your post proves you know absolutely nothing about Weavile or the OU metagame.
Not quite. The metagame may have been forced certain Pokemon to adapt to Scizor, but it still doesn't have enough clout to take high or any priority during the teambuilding phase. When I'm using Brozong, Scizor is the last thing I'm worried about, since Uturn isn't that strong and it just racks up SR damage on my opponent's team, which is good for me.
Bullet Punch and Uturn are resisted by way too many things to truly say Scizor is centralizing at all; almost anything that floats in OU can counter Scizor. True, Bullet Punch was the nail in the coffin to most Salac sets, but even Quick Attack or Lucario's Extremespeed were capable of making short work of them back in the day.
I don't understand where you're getting the idea that OU is focused on Scizor. It was #1 for being an excellent scout all-purpose sweeper check, not for powerhousing the metagame to where we had to run specific sets to beat it. Only our current Ubers were ever really capable of that.
I'm tempted to play UU just for the satisfaction of beating the shit out of everyone with Heracross.
HE IS OU DAMMIT.
HE IS OU DAMMIT.
each and every time i feel like being a jerk with starmie i just put weavile on my team.
it can sweep(Rare stuff) but its not suppose to sweep, its not Lucario, its not SD scizor, its not a freaking DD nite, its a weavile. a utility pokemon that falls on the same category as scizor: it help the team by trapping, scouting(force switchs) and maybe killing a thing or two. it SUPPORT the team.
about scizor: its a annoying little bug that is responsible for the drop in DD t-tar and weavile usage, besides some other stuff. but all of them(Bar some specific pokemons like weavile) got a way to kill scizor, t-tar got fire punch, gengar got sub/hp fire/whatever. scizor is ONLY annoying because you might have to run some stuff specially for him(hp fire on gengar for example) but by no means you NEED to have a pokemon only for him. its easy to work around scizor and even without anything specific for him you can still kill with little problems. even zone is useful outside of trapping scizor. it can for example...trap jirachi too.
it can sweep(Rare stuff) but its not suppose to sweep, its not Lucario, its not SD scizor, its not a freaking DD nite, its a weavile. a utility pokemon that falls on the same category as scizor: it help the team by trapping, scouting(force switchs) and maybe killing a thing or two. it SUPPORT the team.
about scizor: its a annoying little bug that is responsible for the drop in DD t-tar and weavile usage, besides some other stuff. but all of them(Bar some specific pokemons like weavile) got a way to kill scizor, t-tar got fire punch, gengar got sub/hp fire/whatever. scizor is ONLY annoying because you might have to run some stuff specially for him(hp fire on gengar for example) but by no means you NEED to have a pokemon only for him. its easy to work around scizor and even without anything specific for him you can still kill with little problems. even zone is useful outside of trapping scizor. it can for example...trap jirachi too.
I wonder when scrubs will finally come to the realization that their obsessive useage of noobjask, noobvire, umbrefail, and sucknoir is the underlying reason for why they can't achieve more than 1200 on the ladder. Everytime I battle using a new account I can't help but notice that the "noob metagame" has remained stagnant pretty much since the release of DP with the same old ninjask bp teams with assorted gimmicks like focus sash lucario and charizard leads. I don't have a problem with people using gimmicks, but its like they're always the same ones. Hopefully I'm not the only one that thinks this.
If you want an more offesnive grass type in your core shaymin is argubly the beter choice of the 2 mainly thanks to seedflare then the lack of ghost, 4X bug and dark weaknesses help it beat rotom, tyranitar ect. beter than celebi, while celebi fills in the defensive role beter with a slew of support moves and recover.
..So does half of of UU?
I'm not using it as a sweeper; I was replying to the person who claimed it was.
See also, any defensive Pokemon.
With the exception of U-Turn (which has never killed my Umbreon, because I'm not stupid enough to leave it in on an obvious U-Turner), Blissey hates all of the above too, for example.
People underestimate the power of Mean Look + Baton Pass.
Being on top of mind games = inconsistent performance. You will lose some of those mind games, by luck frankly.
Shoddy isn't about a game-by-game basis, it's about long term performance. If you want to get to the top of the ladder, you have to win consistently, and that means building a team whose formula works with as little rolling the dice on "prediction" or "mind games" as possible.
I think we're arguing simply on matters of degree, using words that are not specific enough to really judge the discussion-- ie. we're talking past each other, and the degree I am describing as "centralizing" is the same degree you are calling "not that centralizing." In other words, it's a matter of personal judgement rather than right or wrong.
I base this off the fact that your definition of "centralizing" = one of our Uber pokemon
Where as I am talking about degrees of centralization caused by definitive OU pokemon. It's going to be a much lesser degree, but you can still describe the difference in centralization ability between Scizor and Kingdra
