Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[RufflesPro]

I don't know where you got the information that choice specs is the best set, and tbh it's a terrible item on hydreigon. Being choice locked into one of its stab moves is really bad in this meta, and the mixed LO set is devastating to switch into for balance teams, as flash cannon cleanly 2hkos clefable and earth power 2hkos non-av azumarill, while it can run superpower or fire blast for steel types. And don't act like something not named Chansey / blissey or a fairy is switching into one of its stabs.
Heck, specs Hydreigon is ass even in UU, where the dragon basically rules the tier.
Anyways, hydreigon is pretty solid in this meta and I agree with others that it deserves C+ at the very least, and maybe B-

The Choice Specs set can have both Earth Power and Flash Cannon, I said U-turn "Could be put on specs", but I never said it is always there. Earth Power and Flash Cannon are definitely better than U-turn. So your argument about F-cannon and E-power applies to specs too. While both Specs and LO Flash Cannon do 2HKO Clefable, LO E-power definitely does no 2HKO non-av azumarill, it only has like 35% chance and if it's 0 HP it's 80%. Specs 2HKO. It is true though that Chansey and fairies will wall Specs Hydreigon, But that is true to LO Hydra too. Iron Tail doesn't 2HKO Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Chansey either unless you invest a considerable amount of EVs in Atk, and if you do, you will lose to rolls more often against Azumarill and eventually Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Ferrothorn either and you need rolls to 2HKO Heatran. In fact, Specs Dark Pulse does a little bit more than LO 0 Atk (Mild/Rash) Superpower does to Ferrothorn.

I used mixed LO a bunch of times and it really didn't bring as much as results as you were saying (I did use Iron Tail > Flash Cannon though). Not every team has Chansey or a Fairy, and if there is a Fairy type Hydreigon will usually rely on teammates for that, this is also true for the LO set. The only thing Mixed LO has over Specs is not being choice-locked and being a much less of a dead weight against Chansey. It might be true that I underselled Mix LO, but Specs is definitely not terrible. And even with your reasons I still think Hydreigon for B- is a bit of a stretch. I think C+ is its place.

 

[bb skarm]

Specs is bad because the only reason you'd ever use Hydreigon would be because you want to use its great coverage to tear apart balance cores.

 

[Emberclaw]

The Choice Specs set can have both Earth Power and Flash Cannon, I said U-turn "Could be put on specs", but I never said it is always there. Earth Power and Flash Cannon are definitely better than U-turn. So your argument about F-cannon and E-power applies to specs too. While both Specs and LO Flash Cannon do 2HKO Clefable, LO E-power definitely does no 2HKO non-av azumarill, it only has like 35% chance and if it's 0 HP it's 80%. Specs 2HKO. It is true though that Chansey and fairies will wall Specs Hydreigon, But that is true to LO Hydra too. Iron Tail doesn't 2HKO Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Chansey either unless you invest a considerable amount of EVs in Atk, and if you do, you will lose to rolls more often against Azumarill and eventually Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Ferrothorn either and you need rolls to 2HKO Heatran. In fact, Specs Dark Pulse does a little bit more than LO 0 Atk (Mild/Rash) Superpower does to Ferrothorn.

I used mixed LO a bunch of times and it really didn't bring as much as results as you were saying (I did use Iron Tail > Flash Cannon though). Not every team has Chansey or a Fairy, and if there is a Fairy type Hydreigon will usually rely on teammates for that, this is also true for the LO set. The only thing Mixed LO has over Specs is not being choice-locked and being a much less of a dead weight against Chansey. It might be true that I underselled Mix LO, but Specs is definitely not terrible. And even with your reasons I still think Hydreigon for B- is a bit of a stretch. I think C+ is its place.

Not sure about you, but I think it does not deserve to be in the same tier as Mega Camerupt and Ampharos.

In fact I think it should be over lucario, but that's just me

 

[boltsandbombers]

The Choice Specs set can have both Earth Power and Flash Cannon, I said U-turn "Could be put on specs", but I never said it is always there. Earth Power and Flash Cannon are definitely better than U-turn. So your argument about F-cannon and E-power applies to specs too. While both Specs and LO Flash Cannon do 2HKO Clefable, LO E-power definitely does no 2HKO non-av azumarill, it only has like 35% chance and if it's 0 HP it's 80%. Specs 2HKO. It is true though that Chansey and fairies will wall Specs Hydreigon, But that is true to LO Hydra too. Iron Tail doesn't 2HKO Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Chansey either unless you invest a considerable amount of EVs in Atk, and if you do, you will lose to rolls more often against Azumarill and eventually Clefable. Superpower doesn't 2HKO Ferrothorn either and you need rolls to 2HKO Heatran. In fact, Specs Dark Pulse does a little bit more than LO 0 Atk (Mild/Rash) Superpower does to Ferrothorn.

I used mixed LO a bunch of times and it really didn't bring as much as results as you were saying (I did use Iron Tail > Flash Cannon though). Not every team has Chansey or a Fairy, and if there is a Fairy type Hydreigon will usually rely on teammates for that, this is also true for the LO set. The only thing Mixed LO has over Specs is not being choice-locked and being a much less of a dead weight against Chansey. It might be true that I underselled Mix LO, but Specs is definitely not terrible. And even with your reasons I still think Hydreigon for B- is a bit of a stretch. I think C+ is its place.

Chansey is only used on stall, and balance almost always finds room for clefable / mega altaria / sylveon / azumarill, and the latter is also great on offense. I'll edit in the calc, but I know for a fact that non-av azu is 2HKOd by +Spa earth power after stealth rock.
Iron tail is really bad on hydreigon because it's completely inferior to flash cannon as it only targets the uncommon sylveon. I would never consider specs hydreigon to be a good set, I even wrote the analysis for it lol it wasn't mentioned anywhere, but to each their own.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I've been using Hydreigon with Assault Vest and its been pretty good. I found Life Orb recoil to be pretty significant and being locked in a move just sucks. AV allows it to be a great pivot while still dealing respectable damage and bluffing a choice item. The slowish U-turn is appreciated by a few mons as well. The biggest boon to the dark dragon has to be its new buddy; Megagross. Similar to the Hydreigon/Angislash core (which was awesome!) Hydragross forms a bulky core that covers each other's weaknesses well with a ton of offensive pressure. My view of my favourite mon (yes, I'm biased) is that it is rarely individually good but can be used in many cool cores. C+/B- seems fine to me.

 

[AM]

If Hydreigon rises it's more than likely going to be the effectiveness of its Life Orb set. Not Specs or AV, and more than likely not Scarf since it's not exactly a new thing just got slightly better so no need to bump heads with redundant details. C+ for me maybe a rise later after the whole deal with Greninja is settled and we get a better representation of the meta.

 

[Adamantx]

I've been using Hydreigon with Assault Vest and its been pretty good. I found Life Orb recoil to be pretty significant and being locked in a move just sucks. AV allows it to be a great pivot while still dealing respectable damage and bluffing a choice item. The slowish U-turn is appreciated by a few mons as well. The biggest boon to the dark dragon has to be its new buddy; Megagross. Similar to the Hydreigon/Angislash core (which was awesome!) Hydragross forms a bulky core that covers each other's weaknesses well with a ton of offensive pressure. My view of my favourite mon (yes, I'm biased) is that it is rarely individually good but can be used in many cool cores. C+/B- seems fine to me.

smh, I thought people knew by now to stop throwing AV on everything... It's not an item that any pokemon can use effectively, and Hydreigon is not one of those pokemon. It's not that bulky, its defensive typing is meh, and it looses a significant amount of power and speed by 1: not using LO and 2: probably not investing in speed, which are two things hydreigon NEEDS to function. Hell, if you want a REALLY want dragon type AV user, goodra would suit you much better than hydreigon ever would. (Not saying goodra is fantastic or anything but you get the point.)

 

[RufflesPro]

Well, changing the subject, what do you guys think of Cobalion

in the current meta?

It has a good speed tier of 108, speed tieing with Pokemon like Keldeo and Terrakion, while outspeeding Pokemon like Landorus and Garchomp.
It has a very good typing, being hit by Psychic- and Fairy- type attacks regular effectively and resisting Dragon- and Steel- type attacks.
It has a niche over Terrakion and Keldeo by being able to beat Lati@s 1v1 (Pretty much the only viable fighting type that can do that).
It has very high bulk (defense) and can set up much easier than Keldeo and especially Terrakion.
Because of its bulk, it can be a reliable Stealth Rock user with a couple of a support moves like Taunt and Volt Switch, the latter which brings great momentum and the former which can stallbreak and use better than both Keldeo and Terrakion.
It checks a considerable amount of the tier, including but not limited to Bisharp, (Mega) Scizor, Mega Gyarados (Especially the taunt+volt switch set), Mega Gardevoir, Clefable, and Mega Altaria. All which are very threatening in the current meta and are very common. It also checks the common Ferrothorn and Heatran.

So what do you guys think? Does it deserve C+ or should it go up to B-? I personally support it going to the B- tier.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Well, changing the subject, what do you guys think of Cobalion

in the current meta?

It has a good speed tier of 108, speed tieing with Pokemon like Keldeo and Terrakion, while outspeeding Pokemon like Landorus and Garchomp.
It has a very good typing, being hit by Psychic- and Fairy- type attacks regular effectively and resisting Dragon- and Steel- type attacks.
It has a niche over Terrakion and Keldeo by being able to beat Lati@s 1v1 (Pretty much the only viable fighting type that can do that).
It has very high bulk (defense) and can set up much easier than Keldeo and especially Terrakion.
Because of its bulk, it can be a reliable Stealth Rock user with a couple of a support moves like Taunt and Volt Switch, the latter which brings great momentum and the former which can stallbreak and use better than both Keldeo and Terrakion.
It checks a considerable amount of the tier, including but not limited to Bisharp, (Mega) Scizor, Mega Gyarados (Especially the taunt+volt switch set), Mega Gardevoir, Clefable, and Mega Altaria. All which are very threatening in the current meta and are very common. It also checks the common Ferrothorn and Heatran.

So what do you guys think? Does it deserve C+ or should it go up to B-? I personally support it going to the B- tier.

Cobalion doesn't really beat Lati@s unless it's scarfed. Iron hesd 2hkos or 3hkos i don't remember the calcs, but lati@s 2hko's with HP fire

 

[Tramuntana]

In what world Does Jirachi run an ice type move? That's some gen 5 shit and even then tht was an offensive set, not a stealth Rock set. Also Flygon is a better form of hazard control than magic bounce lol. Espeon is shit, Mega Sab has to mega evolve first and loses to Clefable, earth plate Lando t, Lando I, and Lum SD chomp, while diancie fare seen worse against a lot more hazard setters. And even then Flygon is d while Sab and mega diancie are in the a ranks. You're acting like Tom is nomming him for s. Flygon is good enough for D. I've used him and it's not nearly as bad as you say he is, which just goes to show your lack of experience with him.

Also Fire Blast is a thing on Flygon so Ferro and Scizor 'countering' Flygon is nothing short of being blatantly false.

i think both of you missed the basic point: what i mean is that even something as unreliable as magic bounce would do a better job than Flygon in the long run, simply because flygon is thoroughly outclassed by almost anything on any on his roles. and i also mentioned fire blast, but, defog+fire blast+what more? dragon move+roost? latios does it faaar better with DM + surf or HP fire whthout sucking in anything else. EQ+roost? horrible coverage. no roost? you won't be able defog for long then

 

[Lucario1313]

Cobalion doesn't really beat Lati@s unless it's scarfed. Iron hesd 2hkos or 3hkos i don't remember the calcs, but lati@s 2hko's with HP fire

HP fire is not that common on the lati twins right now, as that one speed point is crucial. Yes, they do sometimes run it and it can be viable, but with all the base 110 things running around it's really hard to justify not just using something else to hit ferro and friends.

 

[Wimblesaurus]

i think both of you missed the basic point: what i mean is that even something as unreliable as magic bounce would do a better job than Flygon in the long run, simply because flygon is thoroughly outclassed by almost anything on any on his roles. and i also mentioned fire blast, but, defog+fire blast+what more? dragon move+roost? latios does it faaar better with DM + surf or HP fire whthout sucking in anything else. EQ+roost? horrible coverage. no roost? you won't be able defog for long then

Absolutely no need for a dragon move. Flygon would much rather beat ferro and skarm with reasonable consistency than sometimes beat certain other dragons on the switch when they're cripplingly weakened. Earth Power + FB is probably the best option. Earth Power beats Bisharp the most conistently out of Flygon's moves excepting Superpower (which is why you're using Flygon instead of a different fogger to begin with, i hope), and means you're not going mixed on a Pokemon that really has no power to spare.

 

[Karxrida]

I've been using AM's VolTurn team which has a Cobalion, and while it does do work it's not the most splashable thing. There are better SR setters and better defensive/offensive Steels to deal with Fairies, and it's mainly for VoltTurn teams since it stops Bisharp from 6-0ing you. I'm not totally against it rising to B- since it has good defenses and it's good for luring out some stuff like Skamory to smack with Volt Switch/Taunt, but I don't see it happening because of how Lando-T switches in indiscriminately and forces you to hard switch unless you predict it to use Knock Off/U-turn.

 

[Machi]

I've been using AM's VolTurn team which has a Cobalion, and while it does do work it's not the most splashable thing. There are better SR setters and better defensive/offensive Steels to deal with Fairies, and it's mainly for VoltTurn teams since it stops Bisharp from 6-0ing you. I'm not totally against it rising to B- since it has good defenses and it's good for luring out some stuff like Skamory to smack with Volt Switch/Taunt, but I don't see it happening because of how Lando-T switches in indiscriminately and forces you to hard switch unless you predict it to use Knock Off/U-turn.

I use Cobalion a lot and I do feel his main niche as a SR setter is simply that he is a reliable switch in to Bisharp but if you aren't using Volt-Turn another great move to use alongside him is Taunt which allows him to prevent defog from Skarmory/Mandibuzz/Scizor/Empoleon as well as being clutch in preventing recovery by bulky mons that would switch in thinking he is a free recovery. It also helps that he can to a degree beat popular SR setters, but this wholly depends on how they are EVd, namely Ferrothorn and Heatran - all while being able to set his own. He is also a great sponge for knock off, but primarily against choice users.

I agree I think B- would be more fitting than C+ given that he is able to perform his role fairly adequately without too compromise on your own team.

 

[Froggyboy]

I am up for Haxorus moving up, since Mold Breaker taunt fucks up Sableye, sticking a middle finger to Quagsire, as well as being able to be a decent Dragon Dancer/Swords Dancer, with Poison Jab and Earthquake to hurt Fairies and Steels nicely. It sucks that it has nothing to hit Skarmory or Ferrothorn(I think, too lazy to calc), but it is still pretty cool, and shouldn't be in the same rank as Blissey.

 

[Kurona]

Since Contrary Serperior was just released, I propose a Preliminary D Rank for it until we can figure out a concrete place for it. At least when it's coded into Showdown.

 

[SketchUp]

Since Contrary Serperior was just released, I propose a Preliminary D Rank for it until we can figure out a concrete place for it. At least when it's coded into Showdown.

I agree with a preliminary D rank, but I can see it moving up to C because it fits the description of a C rank pokemon pretty well.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

 

[AM]

i think both of you missed the basic point: what i mean is that even something as unreliable as magic bounce would do a better job than Flygon in the long run, simply because flygon is thoroughly outclassed by almost anything on any on his roles. and i also mentioned fire blast, but, defog+fire blast+what more? dragon move+roost? latios does it faaar better with DM + surf or HP fire whthout sucking in anything else. EQ+roost? horrible coverage. no roost? you won't be able defog for long then

Using Magic Bounce as your solution to keeping Hazards off the field is an extremely shitty one and the logic you're presenting is just cherry picking the negatives while ignoring the positives. Latios runs the risk of having to work around its subpar Defense stats while from what I can tell by Tokyo Tom's post Flygon allocates its EVs to perform a supportive role along with the ability to have some offensive presence to threaten these Defoggers. You obviously didn't even read his post if you're emphasizing these last points of loss of coverage when he clearly stated the moveset with the function it would provide. Read the post next time before making such baseless assumptions.

I don't think Haxorus should rise. Quite frankly Mold Breaker as its niche really only applies to Stall and only applies to extremely passive Stall with 0 offensive presence, which is already easily taken advantage of with such mons like Manaphy and Lando-I. It has subpar defense stats and the other Dragon types usually have more to offer such as Dragonite with Multiscale and Espeed, Garchomp with Stealth Rock and an extremely useful secondary STAB in ground, the Latis with offensive and supportive traits, and stuff like Hydreigon is just a much more consistent and immediate wall-breaker that doesn't require any sort of set up to be effective. Also Haxorus isn't an answer to M-Sableye when M-Sableye has a fantastic Foul Play set in the meta to screw over physical sweepers. It's fine where it's at.

My issue with Cobalion as an avid user of it is Karxrida's point here.

I've been using AM's VolTurn team which has a Cobalion, and while it does do work it's not the most splashable thing. There are better SR setters and better defensive/offensive Steels to deal with Fairies, and it's mainly for VoltTurn teams since it stops Bisharp from 6-0ing you. I'm not totally against it rising to B- since it has good defenses and it's good for luring out some stuff like Skamory to smack with Volt Switch/Taunt, but I don't see it happening because of how Lando-T switches in indiscriminately and forces you to hard switch unless you predict it to use Knock Off/U-turn.

Sure you can use HP Ice to lure Lando-T but as mentioned it really isn't an asset for every team to use when more likely than not it provides some pretty specific assets to the team. It sort of fits the definition of both C+ and B- depending on how you look at it but I'm honestly more inclined to see it at C+, because it's good but does require a significant amount of team support to fully function on a consistent basis. It's pretty anti-meta for sure, but it's not exactly that difficult to take into account when teambuilding.

Edit: No opinion on Serperior until I see it in action.

 

[Tramuntana]

you just said it, magic bounce is shitty. imagine how awfull i find flygon if i compare him to it. latios having a subpar defense? actually, latios has exactly the same physical bulk of flygon if both run the same spread, and latios has a 110 special defense to defog on some special sweepers, something flygon cannot do (of course, for a bulky spread, you should compare it to latias instead, as the sister is more common for that role, while STILL having way better satt to fight back, and a miryad of mid-game and end-game support moves like healing wish when you have made sure the oponent will not lay again the hazards, specially for a strong sweeper with a tendency to get worn down like mega metagross or mega swampert). literally the only point of running flygon instead of latios would be paralysis, something only ferrothorn carries between all the stealth rock users. some offensive presence? with that 80 base satt without any way to boost it? unless you mean that you can do some serious damage to an oponent with a double weakness to his stab type (something i would never call offensive presence, even quagsire can cause good chunks on AV rhyperior with scald and nobody calls him a powerhouse)

and i have seen a lot of flygons,whose earthquakes (which, stats wise, are flygon's strongest move bar the now nearly unusable Outrage) didn't manage to KO even my own defogger, a defensive empoleon, who he just commented to be checked by flygon, while getting smackedback by an ice beam. i think some base about him i have.

 

[AM]

you just said it, magic bounce is shitty. imagine how awfull i find flygon if i compare him to it. latios having a subpar defense? actually, latios has exactly the same physical bulk of flygon if both run the same spread, and latios has a 110 special defense to defog on some special sweepers, something flygon cannot do. literally the only point of running flygon instead of latios would be paralysis, something only ferrothorn carries between all the stealth rock users. some offensive presence? with that 80 base satt without any way to boost it? unless you mean that you can do some serious damage to an oponent with a double weakness to his stab type (something i would never call offensive presence, even quagsire can cause good chunks on AV rhyperior with scald and nobody calls him a powerhouse)

and i have seen a lot of flygons,whose earthquakes (which, stats wise, are flygon's strongest move bar the now nearly unusable Outrage) didn't manage to KO even my own defogger, a defensive empoleon, who he just commented to be checked by flygon, while getting smackedback by an ice beam. i think some base about him i have.

I would give a more adequate response but the moment you implied a spread for Latios that shouldn't ever be used, AV Rhyperior, and using an argument that Defensive Ice Beam Empoleon beat 1 Flygon so it isn't good from your perspective, I stopped taking your response seriously =/.

 

[Klefkivan]

you just said it, magic bounce is shitty. imagine how awfull i find flygon if i compare him to it. latios having a subpar defense? actually, latios has exactly the same physical bulk of flygon if both run the same spread, and latios has a 110 special defense to defog on some special sweepers, something flygon cannot do. literally the only point of running flygon instead of latios would be paralysis, something only ferrothorn carries between all the stealth rock users. some offensive presence? with that 80 base satt without any way to boost it? unless you mean that you can do some serious damage to an oponent with a double weakness to his stab type (something i would never call offensive presence, even quagsire can cause good chunks on AV rhyperior with scald and nobody calls him a powerhouse)

and i have seen a lot of flygons,whose earthquakes (which, stats wise, are flygon's strongest move bar the now nearly unusable Outrage) didn't manage to KO even my own defogger, a defensive empoleon, who he just commented to be checked by flygon, while getting smackedback by an ice beam. i think some base about him i have.

The point is flygon is much worse than latios that's why flygon is in D for it's defog set and Latios is in S. If you even looked at the spreads for a defogging flygon that were posted you would see latios and flygon would not have the same spread, there are other reasons to run flygon besides evading paralysis as it it can get past a lot of common stealth rockers with EQ and Fire blast and it only takes 6% max if all hazards are on the field. Also how did you even get to the topic of AV Rhyperior that is not common at all, or good for that matter.

Ninja'ed I type too damn slow

 

[Tramuntana]

i did never say that latios should, i just mentioned that it is false that latios is frailer than flygon de per se, if you see a tiny moment ahead, i comment latias is the one that should be running defensive spreads instead, all while STILL getting a better offensive and utility than the dragonfly

about rhyperior, he was the first bulky thing with a double weakness that came to my mind besides heatran (who i already used for flygon) and oposing dragons, thus the one i used to make you see how senseless is saying flygon has good offensive presence by that argument, simply put. the 80 satk is not good, especially when he has absolutely NO WAY to circumvent it, making easy for the SR user in question to simply lay back the stealth rock while letting the team prey on the general low stats of flygon to wear him down

whci in fact is another con: being a momentum killer and having no other use after doing his job was something that couldn't be said about any other SR remover used in OU before. tentacruel had the toxic spikes to prey on the oponent's team if he lost the spinner, starmie used to run LO and screw over anything in his way bar the blobs with a rain boosted hydro pump and thunder, the lati twins have a strong draco meteor and decent coverage to work as revenge killers and emergency cleaners, mandibuzz can troll around with his status moves, foul play, knock off or taunt, offensive excadrill will smash nearly any wall on his way (bar skarm) if he uses SD on the switch and he is at good health

empoleon was mentioned as "one of the multiple SR users that flygon can beat without major problems", who no, he is not rendered useless either, scald is as annoying as ever. on page 103 if i remember right i dropped a short analysis about the rest

 

[56k]

The Cobalion discussion is an interesting one and he's a pokemon that I've been trying to find a use for on my teams because he has an extremely interesting movepool and a cool typing and speed tier. I've spent quite a bit of time theorymonning him and I just haven't been able to come up with a set that fits all of my needs. At a first glance, as a steel type, it seems his job ought to be handling dragons but that gets quickly ruled out when you realize that dragon/ground/fire coverage is one of the most common things that they run -- anything with outrage probably has earthquake and/or fire blast as well. On top of this, he is only -neutral- to fairy types and has unfortunately low SpDef making him lose against things as pitiful as uninvested clefables because he doesn't hit hard either.

252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

wtf that's a STAB weakness against something with 73 base defense and it's still not 2hkoing?

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: (39.9 - 47.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 181-213 (56 - 65.9%)



Well whatever. This thing clearly isn't the steel in charge of handling dragons and fairies. There's probably a teammate like heatran or something paired up with your cobalion right? I can deal with that. He's just not built for eating special attacks and he's better off switching into things like scizor, bisharp, tyranitar, dragonite, and so on.

252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cobalion: (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

See now that's more like it. A pretty good representation of what your average unboosted neutral move does to him.

His movepool is definitely fantastic and in my opinion it is a good idea to drop stealth rock and use that slot for something more useful. I say drop SR because this guy can't beat sableye and tbh rocks are better off used by heatran, clef, infernape, whatever. Something that actually beats the ghost. Meanwhile that frees up a moveslot on cobal and he can do his bulky pivot thing in a unique way with some pretty good coverage moves in his arsenal.

He has all kinds of kooky stuff like magnet rise, thunder wave, stone edge, taunt, iron defense, HP ice, whatever, that can fit in alongside

Iron Head / CC / Volt Switch / ???

Seems like a decent mon but I should reiterate that I've only been theorymonning here and it's hard for me to gauge just how often he actually has a chance to switch in and voltturn out for free in a real battle. Does he fullfill any roles or niches better than a standard rotom/lando/scizor does?

I don't mean to suggest any ranking changes here, I'm just kinda spilling my thoughts and hoping someone else will pick up the discussion, because I am very interested in this 'mon but I've never used it outside of randbats lol.

 

[Grim]

i did never say that latios should, i just mentioned that it is false that latios is frailer than flygon de per se, if you see a tiny moment ahead, i comment latias is the one that should be running defensive spreads instead, all while STILL getting a better offensive and utility than the dragonfly

about rhyperior, he was the first bulky thing with a double weakness that came to my mind besides heatran (who i already used for flygon) and oposing dragons, thus the one i used to make you see how senseless is saying flygon has good offensive presence by that argument, simply put. the 80 satk is not good, especially when he has absolutely NO WAY to circumvent it, making easy for the SR user in question to simply lay back the stealth rock while letting the team prey on the general low stats of flygon to wear him down

whci in fact is another con: being a momentum killer and having no other use after doing his job was something that couldn't be said about any other SR remover used in OU before. tentacruel had the toxic spikes to prey on the oponent's team if he lost the spinner, starmie used to run LO and screw over anything in his way bar the blobs with a rain boosted hydro pump and thunder, the lati twins have a strong draco meteor and decent coverage to work as revenge killers and emergency cleaners, mandibuzz can troll around with his status moves, foul play, knock off or taunt, offensive excadrill will smash nearly any wall on his way (bar skarm) if he uses SD on the switch and he is at good health

empoleon was mentioned as "one of the multiple SR users that flygon can beat without major problems", who no, he is not rendered useless either, scald is as annoying as ever. on page 103 if i remember right i dropped a short analysis about the rest

Latios and Latias have a far worse typing than Flygon does, with a weakness to Knock Off and Pursuit. Flygon also resists EdgeQuake which is quite awesome. 80 Special Attack might not be good, but a lot of common hazard setters being weak to it makes that not an enormous problem. They certainly can't just lay back the Stealth Rock letting the team wear him down (it won't even get worn down that easiliy with Roost and its resistance to rocks and immunity to spikes). Yes, Flygon is a momentum killer. It's not really good at all, which is why it's D-rank. It just has a tiny niche that makes it not completely unusable in OU. Starmie is rarely used on rain teams, they have other water types to abuse (most notably Kabutops who also gets Rapid Spin), while the Reflect Type set loses to M-Sableye, which is really crappy. The Lati twins do nothing good for momentum, for a lot of threats can set up on them after they used Draco Meteor. Mandibuzz is an enormous momentum killer if its not using U-turn, and honestly is not relevant at all. Excadrill does indeed not kill momentum, but has to play mindgames with M-Sableye which is quite annoying. Not having to play mindgames with one of the most used pokemon in the tier is very nice. Don't even mention Swords Dance Excadrill, it's not relevant nor good right now.
Empoleon is not rendered completely useless, but Flygon can still beat it without major problems. The best thing it can do is use Scald, and since it's not using physical attacks and has Roost a burn is nothing more than a minor annoyance.

Honestly I don't think you really know what you're talking about, because you keep bringing up sets that either are bad or simply irrelevant in the OU metagame, and haven't really given the thread any valid reason to remove it from the list.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I'm changing the subject here.

I believe Haxorus deserves to move up to C. At first glance, Haxorus might looked outclassed by Dragon Dancers like Dragonite and Char X, but Haxorus has a higher Attack stat than both of them. It also has a better typing than Dragonite and doesn't use up a Mega Slot like Char X (It's also faster than Dragonite.). However, that's not what is mainly to look at. Having access to Mold Breaker as well as Taunt makes it an amazing stall breaker. Unlike the other two, Haxorus has the luxury of being able to ignore Unaware users like Quagsire and Clefable. (I mean, Clefable beats it with Moonblast, but if you want to use Swords Dance, then you OHKO with Poison Jab. Oh yeah, did I mention it gets Swords Dance?) Mold Breaker and Taunt warrants a raise on their own. The only other Pokémon that has that is Gyarados, which is a Mega Pokémon.
Sorry that this post is a little messy. It's not a Poke that deserves to move up a whole lot so I'm not going to make this too pretty.​

Remember when many peope were claiming that Greninja had 4MSS? The post that you has made about Haxorus shows that using Taunt on Haxorus causes a serious and real 4MSS.

Let's see the set:
Swords Dance/Dragon Dance
-Taunt
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake/Poison Jab

This would be set and you'll start noticing the heavy 4MSS there.
Swords Dance/Dragon Dance is not a case of 4MSS. Haxorus could use both moves and abuse them.
Outrage/Dragon Claw doesn't cause a move debate. Outrage is supposedly better but getting locked in sucks and having to switch out (or a 50% risk of getting confusion damage) is no good. ut I prefer Outrage over Dragon Claw because if Haxorus wants to do something, it's power.
Earthquake or Poison Jab. Here it's the big 4MSS: If you don't have Poison Jab, you can't defeat Fairies. However, Dragon move/Poison Jab is a bad idea because you would get walled by many Steel types in the tier (which is never a good thing). No STAB Earthquake doesn't hit Fairies enough. And if you lack Taunt, you aren't a stallbreaker anymore.