The funniest is if you run around with the lock-on/focus button held down, for a couple frames it will zero-in on th already-despawning Flutter Mane despite its Model not appearing.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
So I haven't played SV yet, but I was under the impression that Paradoxes were more or less just bullshitted into existence by some machine and were never truly real. Also, I thought the "original" Walking Wake sketch came from a tabloid that clearly didn't fact check the in-universe timeline, hence the discrepancy.
As it stands, that’s just a theory. The game only ever states that the Paradox Pokémon were brought to the present day using a time machine, which sends Poké Balls into either the distant past or future (depending on your version) and captures Pokémon from that era.
However, it is noted by one of the characters that things don’t quite add up about the whole situation, since the time machine was built only recently, yet Heath’s expedition into Area Zero 200 years ago also encountered these Paradox Pokémon. That’s the main piece of evidence for the theory that they were imagined into existence.
The Beast / Sword trio “hybrid” sketch was drawn during the expedition 200 years before Scarlet & Violet, by one of the men on Heath’s team. They were inspired by the prehistoric / futuristic appearance of the other Paradox Pokémon, and drew the “hybrid” as a conjecture of what other Pokémon in Area Zero might look like.
The timeline discrepancy only comes up when you compare the facts stated in Scarlet & Violet (that this expedition occurred 200 years ago) with the facts stated in Gold & Silver (that the Brass Tower burned down 150 years ago). But there are ways to resolve this — it could be that 50 years have passed between the stories of GS and SV, or, what I think is more likely, it could just be that the Beast trio that were revived from the Brass Tower incident simply weren’t the first Raikou, Entei, and Suicune to exist. Entei’s Pokédex entries already talk about how it is born when volcanoes form, and surely we’re not meant to believe that all volcanoes in the Pokémon world are less than a century and a half old.
My theory remains that if the Paradoxes are "real" (as in creatures that are pulled out of the machine and not simply created by it), that Walking Wake and Raging Bolt (and whatever Entei gets) were the original creatures that died and turned into the Beast Trio, or some concept of them (like maybe the originals were small, or they were old Regionals/Convergents and Ho-oh had to say "close enough" on the revive). Everyone calling a contradiction on their existence assumes that these species can't exist simultaneously or, as you note, that the Beasts cannot have existed before the Brass Tower fire (and again, the Paradoxes are PAST ones, meaning they would predate the regular Pokemon chronologically if real).
Watch Scorching Roar have Sacred Fire before its theoretical connection to Ho-oh and completely shoot my idea in the neck.
This is true. Although, one minor detail that I think does sort of contradict the idea of the Paradox Beasts being related to the Burned Tower trio (and also kind of disrupts the ever-popular “they used to be Vaporeon, Jolteon, and Flareon” theory, as well as the “they used to be their Spaceworld beta designs” theory) is that the three beasts are said to embody the elements that were involved in the tower’s destruction. Raikou represents the lightning that struck the tower, Entei represents the resultant fire, and Suicune represents the rain that doused the flames. It kind of implies that they weren’t originally an Electric-, Fire-, and Water-type group.
That said, there’s a couple of counterpoints to loom at here. For one, Game Freak may have just overlooked or disregarded that part of the lore. Alternatively, in-universe, it could all just be a coincidence, with the humans who were aware of the tragedy drawing connections between things that only seemed to be related — correlation isn’t causation, after all, especially if the beasts who died in the Tower weren’t the first of their kind (regardless of whatever form any predecessors might have had). And, of course, there’s always the possibility of a good old outright retcon.
Yeah I do think that on the assumption that:
1. they didn't just forget that bit of the lore (literally almost no one brings it up, in games or in fandom)
2. Paradoxes are meant to be fully imagined
3. It's not a retcon
Then the drawing is meant to be an in-universe coincidence. For the most part its just "what if there was a crazy beast", for both the Past and Present drawings. There's elements of their trios (Suicune more obvious than the rest) but it's all fanciful and exaggerated enough to, indeed, just be coincidental. Hell even """suicune"""'s horn in-universe could be explained by being a hexagon and those being on the mind of the researchers.
So then it's like alluded to earlier with a domino effect:
-You have people (whether its the Professor, someone like Blair, other Area Zero researchers, etc) looking at this old drawing and see that they resemble Pokemon more well known 200 years later
-They know it's imagined, but so instead they interpret it as 3 different Pokemon. Or there's separate interpretations of what the drawing could "really" mean
-Terapagos/Area Zero reacts to this and spews out those separate interpretations
Alternatively, even if Wake and company are "real", that doesn't mean they're literally the ones that died in the fire. It just means they're the ancesotrs of the randos who did. Then time machine shenanigans pull them from the far past.
Evolved theory: Raging Bolt is tall because he's like the Lightning Rod the tower formed, Walking Wake is the boiling steam by rain falling on the burning tower before it was extinguished (and Hydro Steam/Scald are bad at putting it out without evaporating). inb4 Paradox Entei is another Fire/Steel type because of the burned Brass.
RIP to the original Pokemon being in Johto and not Unova. The Swords of Justice were pretty good at Fire Rescues according to their lore, though this also might have resulted in Raikou being the one with Secret Sword.
Actually speaking of both in-universe coincidences and imagination, another interesting quirk lies in the Dex entries
The "on brand" entries for the paradoxes only reference their version's book. "This thing was mentioned in the book!" and nothing about the tabloids.
But the "off brand" entries mention the other version's tabloids.
Now it's easy to just write this off as a needed gameplay/story segregation. Like the fact the pokedex is incomplete without the other paradoxes even though they literally don't exist; they still wanted to detail the tabloids in place of mentioning the book, so it's just something to shrug off and move on.
But the entry for the raidons is a little more interesting because it focuses entirely on the behavior (which matches the only one that can be traded), resemblance to Cyclizar and nothing else. *
The entry for Flutter Mane specifically is also a little interesting
So if there's a cross-universe coincidence on that level, I think the drawing being coincidental can also work.
*I will note there's entries for the lower power mode/limited build that do mention their epitaph from "a certain book", but these are unused.
Although the fact that Briar's outfit is made to resemble both books...................
The "on brand" entries for the paradoxes only reference their version's book. "This thing was mentioned in the book!" and nothing about the tabloids.
But the "off brand" entries mention the other version's tabloids.
Now it's easy to just write this off as a needed gameplay/story segregation. Like the fact the pokedex is incomplete without the other paradoxes even though they literally don't exist; they still wanted to detail the tabloids in place of mentioning the book, so it's just something to shrug off and move on.
But the entry for the raidons is a little more interesting because it focuses entirely on the behavior (which matches the only one that can be traded), resemblance to Cyclizar and nothing else. *
The entry for Flutter Mane specifically is also a little interesting
To me it leaves open the possibility that the tabloids for all 14 exist in both universes. But basically they spun up a story around some cryptid sighting or what have you, and half the articles attribute it to the Paradoxes associated with that version since they make for good sale fodder.
So if there's a cross-universe coincidence on that level, I think the drawing being coincidental can also work.
*I will note there's entries for the lower power mode/limited build that do mention their epitaph from "a certain book", but these are unused.
I meant “coincidence” more in regards to like, the beasts having types that onlookers could associate with the components of the accident, even though realistically thunderstorms are usually accompanied by rain, and lightning strikes can easily cause fires. There could have been any Pokémon in the tower at the time, but they just happened to be ones with types that lined up with part of the story in later recountings of it (this would have to be the case if you assume they were originally the core Eeveelutions, the beta beasts, or the Paradoxes).
For example, if the storm had also featured strong winds, then people after the fact might have interpreted those as a sign of Ho-Oh’s approach since it’s a Flying type. But that wouldn’t necessarily mean there was any real relationship between Ho-Oh’s type and the winds of the storm.
Aside from all that, I do agree with everything you’re saying as well, that the sketches could also plausibly be a coincidence.
Yeah, jokes aside, there's quite a difference between "oh, we left behind 3 small/medium sized Pokemon" and "oh, we forgot out 10+ feet tall dragons". The former is believable that the identities of the Pokemon would be forgotten as they would just be among the many other smaller/medium-ish (and by that I mean Eeveelution-sized) Pokemon which lived in/around the Tower and thus could likely have been a mammal, bird, bug, etc.. Meanwhile the latter would be kind of hard to forget in both the sense that their absence amoun the evacuated would likely be noticed by someone and their identities would be so easily forgotten.
Also, according to the animated series Generations, apparently as soon as the people saw the Beast Trio they become terrified of them and began tossing things at them (yes, it's stupid, but we're just supposed to go with it). If the Paradox Mons were their true form, that would make this reaction feel a bit stranger as the Beast Trio still looks enough like the Paradox Mons. Meanwhile with the former, not only would it probably take a while for people to realize of the three perished Pokemon, if their original identities were so forgettable I take it to meaning the Beast Trio forms are a notable divergent that no one knew they were reincarnated Pokemon.
AND, that's assuming the legend is true OR its even the origins of the Beast Trio species. As Esserise mentioned, just because Ho-Oh reincarnated the three perished Pokemon into the Beast Trio, that doesn't mean their species didn't exist before. Like other Legendaries, the Beast Trio are seclusive and especially encountering one for even the most briefest of moments would have been a once in a 100 life times occurrence (if not more). So putting what I said in perspective:
- The Legend could simply be made-up to explain two unconnected occurrence: The Brass Tower burning and a Beast Trio showing up. While people often associated the Beast Trio with Ho-Oh, in general the Beast Trio just seems to have a connection with Johto Legends period. They've been associated with Celebi as much as Ho-Oh and let's not forget the Brass Tower was Lugia's tower. Could be that, after the tower was burned down, a nearby Beast Trio arrived to see what has happened and this was the first time many people got a really good look at the Beast Trio as they surveyed the destruction. Thus, later on, people just connected the Beast Trio to the Brass Tower burning. The few who knew the truth either never knew this done, cared to correct the people, or were brushed off.
- If the legend is true, it would be direct evidence that the Beast Trio serve as envoys to Ho-Oh and that it can at the very least reincarnate other Pokemon into them, though it doesn't mean the three perished Pokemon were the first.
Let's also not cross off that the Terastal Phenomenon allows for some interdimensional mingling. Whether you believe that the the Paradox Pokemon are from a different time or imagined into existence, that alone leaves the door wide open to being able to access parallel dimensions (an idea which has been played with before).
NEW MYSTERY:
Or rather: NEW TIL: Apparently Dipplin isn't one Pokemon but two! Did you think that Dipplin was just an Applin which became a candy apple? Well, turns out Dipplin is actually two Applins who share the candy apple: one acts as the head and the other is the tail (which I guess means it's responsible for movement).
So, why? Why is it now two Pokemon? Is it because Dipplin can stick its head out from the top of the apple? I assumed either Applin could do that and just didn't want to or upon evolving grew long enough where it could stick its head out from the top of the apple. Flapple and Appletun are singular organisms so it's not like Applin ever needed a second wyrm to become stronger. Also, as far as I can tell, since the two Wyrms are in-sync with one another and the Core-Wyrm never shows its head, they look like just one singular Pokemon anyway. Am I missing something? Why make it two Pokemon?
The answer might just be in the next dlc, but idk I think the answer to me is just whimsy. Its a fun lorebit, one evo where they team up and get stronger.
It's both a dipped Applin and a di-Applin
iirc the people were terrified because the Pokemon had literally come back from the dead. 150 years ago they weren’t as understanding as they were recently in Kitakami.
Dipplin being two Applin might be why the Eviolite works on these.
So what is the "background" part of the Past paradoxes cries supposed to be
With the Futures, its clearly meant to be like robotic thumping. Clanging metal, to go with their aesthetic.
But the Pasts it's both hard to make out in comparison and also I can't discern what it's meant to represent.
With the Futures, its clearly meant to be like robotic thumping. Clanging metal, to go with their aesthetic.
But the Pasts it's both hard to make out in comparison and also I can't discern what it's meant to represent.
I always thought the past paradox cries had zacian/zamazenta's howls in the background (or at least the howls from their themes). Or did you mean some other feature of the cries?
"Howl" is about as accurate as anything else. It's really low volume and feels more indistinct.
Listening to the cries on YouTube (the past Paradoxes start at 2:06), it sounds to me like a drumbeat that resonates and lingers, although I can definitely understand interpreting the latter part as a growl/howl. It kinda works as an abstract representation of a more primal past (or at least it feels about as appropriate as any sound can)
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ok these are much louder & higher quality, yeah I can hear the drumbeat much more clearly. Good catch, thanks.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Early on in the anime, they tended to release maps specifying where all the anime-exclusive locations are situated relative to the game (off the top of my head, the castle in the Lucario movie is north of Pewter City, the valley in the Jirachi movie is west of Mt Chimney, LaRousse City is further up the river on Route 120, Alto Mare is off the coast of Cherrygrove City, and obviously the Orange Islands are south of the Sevii Islands with New Island between them both), so they could all technically exist in the same universe if you operate on the basis that the regions as we see them in the games are just incredibly condensed versions of the bigger and more "realistic" anime portrayals.
However, every so often I like to drive myself nuts by wondering where New Tork City in the Genesect movie is meant to be exactly, since it's quite clearly downtown NYC which is where Castelia City already is. Does Unova just have a second NYC somewhere no one talks about?
However, every so often I like to drive myself nuts by wondering where New Tork City in the Genesect movie is meant to be exactly, since it's quite clearly downtown NYC which is where Castelia City already is. Does Unova just have a second NYC somewhere no one talks about?
Unova's already weird because it's the only region based on a real world city, not region.
Unova's based New York City, not New York State. Southwest Unova introduced in B2W2 is even based on New Jersey areas.
Compare this to the European regions which are relatively unchanged, besides Kalos being northern France, Galar an upside down UK, and Paldea being Spain and Portugal with a massive crater where Madrid is.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
It incorporates aspects of the rest of the state in its design, though. As well as New Jersey, you've got parts of Long Island and other counties in NY like Broome and Westchester. Although it does chop a massive amount of Brooklyn and Queens away. I've always just headcanoned that the Undella Sea is a fairly narrow channel and there's more land on the eastern side of it that connects to the mainland (which would fit with it being called a sea rather than "the ocean"). Otherwise it looks like in this universe Long Island sank beneath the waves and was wiped off the map.
And it might be the only region based on a city but there's nothing new about partial regions - Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Kitakami, Almia, Fiore, and Oblivia are all based on various parts of Japan, as opposed to the whole country. Even with the regions people take to be based on whole countries, there are bits missing - Kalos as you said is only northern France, and Galar doesn't use the whole of the UK (pretty much everything south and west of London is missing, and there's no Northern Ireland equivalent). The Pokemon world is recognisably earth, it's just not a precise 1-1.
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Sounds about right
The back of the Pokemon Crystal box highlights some of its new features as a selling point, but I don't remember there being a unique sort function to organize Pokemon anywhere in the game.