So I already semi alluded to this earlier but this Tower's angle of throwing entirely preset teams at you can noticeably change the dynamics of how battles are played here compared to traditional battle facilities. Over time I've learned to make (a lot) more use of it, in a way that goes beyond sacking certain Pokemon to the second enemy for a free switch if they can't help against the third anyway or even sacking Salamence against Porygon-Z or Articuno leads in matchups where it can't contribute anyway. I've just been kinda taking it to the max more? Let's take a look this Palmer team, which statistically you run into roughly once every 21 battles.
My go-to here on the first few runs used to be pretty standard battle facility play; go to Scizor and set up a Swords Dance to 2HKO Dragonite, go to Suicune on Heatran and Pressure stall Earth Power while setting up, win. Now this works in theory, but resist switches are a thing in this facility, so more often than not Dragonite will switch out for Heatran after the first Bullet Punch. This of course does not substantially alter the strategy at first, since Suicune is still waiting in the wings and the Heatran matchup only becomes easier with its Sash broken; however, this does mean that Cresselia brings back a Dragonite with Multiscale intact against a paralysed Suicune. With +1 Outrage being a 2HKO in this situation and Dragonite occasionally also being smart enough to go for this option over a +4 OHKO, this means that too many consecutive full paras at the wrong time can all but assure a loss.
And there's the rub; of course a resist switch into a cascade of full paralyses actually happening is very unlikely, same with Dragonite both haxing and outplaying Scizor, but as we all know "statistically it will happen at some point so do everything you can to rule it out entirely" is standard battle facility wisdom, and the preset teams here only serve to increase those odds further (not just with Palmer but in general). So, let's use those teams against them here.
- Immediately attack Dragonite with an unboosted Outrage for like 70-85%; most of the time, it will set up a DD of its own to secure the OHKO (which Intimidate turns into a roll) and take out Mence after, but not always, and the end result is the same without the risk of losing Mence without it doing anything.
- Use Scizor's Bullet Punch to revenge kill Dragonite while the Outrage lock-in rules out a resist switch to Heatran.
- Use Scizor's Bullet Punch again as Heatran comes out and takes down Scizor so Suicune switches in for free.
- 2HKO Heatran with unboosted Scald, which thanks to the chip damage from Bullet Punch is actually guaranteed and would be a roll otherwise.
- laugh as Suicune makes a support Cresselia with no way to actually damage it other than a weak unboosted Ice Beam its bitch.
There we have it; from a conventional battle facility player pov rushing into this and sacking mons to take on a fresh third enemy with only a 50%-ish Suicune left would be so insane that we'd have to freshly make up the words to describe it, but because we actually know what we're facing here, this is actually the optimised path to victory here. The only way I can lose this battle at all is if Heatran crits both its Earth Powers vs Suicune /and/ gets a SpDef drop on the first /and/ gets a high damage roll on both on top of that. Safe to say that would be one of those "well sometimes the Tower just says frick you and that's it" moments and, more importantly, is leagues more unlikely than the hax scenarios I was still susceptible to with a more conventional strategy. I changed up my strategies against Palmer's other teams similarly; the lead Heatran variant actually has me 2HKO Heatran with Salamence directly (with Earthquake + Outrage just in case he tries to be funny and pull off a resist switch to Dragonite, though this has not actually happened yet) and chip Rhyperior on the continued Outrage, after which both Rhyperior and Dragonite are pretty easy pickings even for a +0 Suicune. If Salamence goes down to a crit Dragon Pulse (yes no worries I do account for that), then Scizor simply picks Heatran off instead and continues Salamence's chipping role, and the battle proceeds as normal; I /can/ technically lose at this point via convoluted crit scenarios, but they all involve high rolls or unusual AI behaviour (i.e. attacking at +0 while they don't even have me in 2HKO range) on top of that, so I'll take it over Heatran getting lucky vs Suicune. My strategy versus the Regigigas variant is posted in the cringey gif in my earlier post, and even accounting for clever ways in which Palmer can outplay me (e.g. Knock Off my Lum turn 1 then use Protect on a two-turn Outrage to actually corner Mence) I'm pretty sure I mathematically cannot lose this battle outside of hard misclicks.
Unfortunately, being able to roadmap matchups from beginning to end still only goes so far. Try this on for size:
Scizor-6 is common, with Jogger Sherman also having two teams that use it as a lead. Thankfully, Scizor-6 is also a dummy that usually just throws out weak -1 Bullet Punches and Thiefs, often gets Scald burned, and has a habit of pulling off "genius" switches to the Grass-types and Gastrodons Jerrell and Sherman have in the back; so, while technically this is a 50/50 matchup where Scald's burn chance is the like only reason it's not solidly weighted against me, in practice I get the momentum back quickly if I just go to Suicune, boost once or twice, and start spamming Scald to pressure it until it gets burned or misplays into being taken out. The exception is when it actually boosts on its first two turns, which enables this calc:
which is potentially exacerbated when a high roll here knocks it into Sitrus range and I lose my Leftovers as a result:
No matter how dumb the AI gets, of course statistically this will end up happening at some point. On my most recent battle, it managed to take down both Suicune and my own Scizor; while it had been left in unboosted Earthquake range and Salamence brought itself out of Bullet Punch range with its own Intimidate and as a result was able to 1v2 the Venusaur-6 and Lucario-2 backups, bulk + Sash + not exactly weak neutral attacks made this a dire matchup from the get-go. Jerrell's other team would have been an automatic loss on the spot with faster Ice Punch Lucario existing and inability to anticipate anyways since a preemptive Dragon Dance would assure Scizor checkmating me, and here too my only out was hoping for a Venusaur Sleep Powder (and a three-turn Outrage or lack of self-hit ofc) or a major throw along the line of Lucario not clicking Vacuum Wave after low rolls on both Sludge Bomb and Flash Cannon. None of that of course though, and that's all she wrote. Where did that leave us?
(video here)
The team is still the same it was in my previous post, with the exception of the pre-announced single-point Speed bump on Suicune.
Salamence @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 28 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 212 Spe (raw stat: 147)
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Bold
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe (raw stat: 114)
- Scald
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
Scizor @ Iron Plate
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 60 Spe (raw stat: 93)
- Bullet Punch
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance
- Roost
For the sake of flipping the mood of this post back to positive, let's get into the relevancy of that single Speed point on Suicune right away.
It's only a small exaggeration to say that this Trainer has caused me to lose literal sleep, because when your matchup into Electric-types can be sketchy as is, you really don't want to see one that both is immune to Ground and has enough raw bulk for your main chip-susceptible powerhouse to not be able to break it without substantial damage. It's made way worse by the Zapdos in the back that said chip-susceptible powerhouse has trouble handling as is even when fresh, not to mention that Salamence isn't even living to see that one anyway because it'll run into an Ice Punch Metagross before it has the chance!
The first time I ran into this Trainer was a loss, because with the necessity of keeping Mence alive for Zapdos in the back of my head, I actually tried to set up Suicune on Rotom. It's the kind of thing that actually works if everything goes as intended, because it's not actually that strong and Suicune quickly nullifies its own weakness, but things actually do not go as intended when crits exist and we are still facing a foe that has other obvious hax in its toolkit. Not to mention I couldn't exactly afford to play it safe in case it would Volt Switch out to Zapdos at any point. A subsequent attempt involved trying to play around Rotom with Substitute after all, which also almost failed because Metagross came in, though I managed to take it down with Scizor and was bailed out by Herman using the Arcanine variant.
These two attempts combined to actually give me the strategy I needed though. I don't actually need Salamence to handle Zapdos as long as Suicune is boosted when it comes in, and Mence roadblock Metagross is also actually prime setup bait for Suicune. Or rather, it was not at the time I was contemplating this, because the Speed tie really sucks when it's still throwing Adamant Zen Headbutts around that may time themselves around finicky Rest loops, but with that extra Speed point to bump it up to 114, Suicune was always gonna make this Metagross his bitch barring true hax cascades. The only step left was getting it in in the first place, which it was always gonna do vs Mence, but Rotom would have to either die or Volt Switch out for that to happen. The latter was a thing it was prone to doing anyways and would not need my help for, and the former turned out to be way easier than I expected when I'd seen the HO light and noticed that +0 Outrage is actually a clean 2HKO that also avoids Wiki range entirely. Oops.
Oh yea, Scizor's Shedinja-based benchmark still holds up pretty fine in practice and the only sensible drop would be by a single point; 91 like it used to be has some pretty strong arguments against it, where I'm not even talking exclusively about Ludicolo.
Yet another Trainer that has a reputation of being a bitch, with a team without Rock resistances not necessarily being the most adept at handling Choice Scarf Head Smash and the existence of Fire Punch + Dragon Dance Dragonite on both variants also making "sack Salamence for Bullet Punch revenge kill" a sketchy (as in actually theoretically possible but hax-susceptible) strategy. Keen observers will note that Honchkrow is the relevant Speed benchmark here, and full disclosure under normal circumstances it does not actually come into play here. Flowchart time!
- Switch Suicune into Rampardos, because with Intimidate it can actually tank two of those now. Rest on the second, tank another two, and yay thanks to Pressure you now have a Rampardos that's out of Head Smash PP and a Suicune that's about to wake up.
- You click Ice Beam as Rampardos switches out for Dragonite, breaking its Multiscale and leaving it in range for another Ice Beam; if it switches out for Honchkrow instead, then a standard battering ram cleanup becomes only easier, since Suicune outspeeds.
- In the likely event (~60% odds based off standard 8th grade math) that at least one Head Smash misses, Dragonite simply gets KOed while it tries to set up Dragon Dance and get Suicune into Outrage range, after which Honchkrow is also outsped and takes another one, leaving it in easy Salamence range and primed for a clean. If Suicune actually was in +0 Outrage range, then no big deal, Multiscale is still broken and Salamence is faster, so it can come in on a locked Dragonite easily and similarly finish the deal.
However, this is Titus we're talking about, and "normal circumstances" is a very relative concept here. First off, Rampardos has a habit of staying in on the turn where it's supposed to switch out in order to be UnPrEdIcTaBlE, which means that fantastic it dies to Ice Beam and/or Struggle recoil then and there but Dragonite, in a worst case scenario where every Head Smash hit, actually gets a free shot at knocking out Suicune while keeping Multiscale intact. This is where Scizor comes in, after Suicune goes down:
- Break Multiscale with an unboosted Bullet Punch; we don't want to set up and be left wide open to Fire Punch in the event of a two-turn Outrage!
- In the actual event of a two-turn Outrage, go to Salamence on Fire Punch, take out Dragonite with your own faster Outrage, and knock Honchkrow into Scizor range.
- If it's a three-turn Outrage, use the third turn to set up an SD for real and take Dragonite down.
- Use Bullet Punch to outprioritise Honchkrow's Sucker Punch and win. It's actually a roll (a favoured one, but still; more on that later!), but if you actually do lose Scizor here to rolls and smart move choices you have a Mence in the back anyways.
Your answer to this would be "wait Mari surely you are not forgetting the fact that Head Smash can crit because that's where my Titus sleep paralysis demons come from", and no worries I'm getting to that! The flowchart here is somewhat similar, with the differences that you no longer have a Mence in the back but Scizor also ends up less chipped, which makes for a tiny but funny shift in dynamics.
- Bring out Scizor after Suicune goes down and insta-remove Rampardos with Bullet Punch.
- Dragonite comes out; go back to Salamence on Fire Punch and sacrifice it to Dragonite's Outrage in order to get off your own.
- Bring Scizor back in, use the second Outrage turn for a Swords Dance boost, and take out Dragonite.
- Take out Honchkrow with X-Scissor instead to avoid any heartbreak from tragically missing the Bullet Punch roll, since you're in Brave Bird range but not Sucker Punch range anyways. If an Outrage crit means you DO need to chance the Bullet Punch roll, then oh well we're talking about a multiple improbable hax instances scenario here anyways I suppose.
Now is this way too many words for something that basically amounts to a simple case of Sucker Punch headache + 87% roll heartbreak avoidance, yea probably but I found it another nice example of every single bolt in this team's toolkit actually mattering in matchups that take serious effort to figure out, which Titus (evidently) is. If instead you wanna believe that I saw an opening to thoroughly break down my Titus matchup and ran with it then sure that works for me too though.
I don't actually have many interesting things to say off the top of my head about Salamence's Speed stat other than Jolly Dragonite and Life Orb Competitive Milotic like I mentioned in my previous post, as well as being able to Sub before Drifblim's Will-O-Wisp. We have more fun and only very vaguely relevant stuff to talk about though!
So this is pretty up there for what's been the absolute most satisfying matchups to solve, because at face value it's beyond nightmarish. I'll just go through obvious options in order first.
- Salamence is not boosting on this, full stop. Only +3 Outrage is a guaranteed OHKO, while Hurricane is a 2HKO in return and Will-O-Wisp is a thing that also exists. Any ideas like going for the <50% 2HKO chance with unboosted Outrage would be just as dumb as they sound even without Flame Body and Lax Incense in the picture, nor is trying to use Substitute to play around predicted Will-O-Wisp with Substitute, not to mention that sacrificing or almost sacrificing Salamence is all but suicide with a defensive Zapdos in the back.
- Setting up Suicune is plan B, and between Suicune outspeeding and Moltres commonly opening with Will-O-Wisp two immediate boosts are pretty much guaranteed. At this point even Hurricane confusion is not a major factor anymore for screwing Suicune over without outlandish stuff like back to back crits and back to back self-hits on a 70% accurate move with an effective 8PP where I have speed initiative; however, Mystical Fire is next, after which Moltres will be switching out entirely, and while getting to +6 Special Defense is very plausible, once again Zapdos is coming out next, which you'll be taking on with outright lowered Special Attack. Taking on a faster Electric-type with reliable recovery under these circumstances is actually still possible, but it's even less safe than setting Suicune up on Rotom-W, and we all know how that went, even without Discharge paralysis and a Sheer Cold Articuno still in the back.
- Taking Hurricane PP out of the picture and using Salamence's Substitute to boost on Wisp and Mystical Fire is a lot less crazy than setting up from turn 1; however, you still need a full 3 boosts, which actually gets sketchy if Moltres gets smart and uses Mystical Fire on a naked Salamence or (of course) crits the sub, especially knowing that there's also a Tyranitar in the back to bring Sand Stream chip. The bigger issue is simply the team composition in general though; between Flame Body, Static, a potential two-turn Outrage, and Bright Powder potentially letting said two-turn Outrage kick in even sooner, a single Lum Berry just isn't enough here. The cherry on top here is once again Zapdos, since that one coming out late and prior status potentially enabling it to take out Salamence means you really kinda sorta just lose here.
Combining failed strats 2 and 3 actually got me where I needed to be. Once again, flowchart time!
- Go directly to Suicune, and use Rest + Pressure + Calm Mind to stall out Hurricane as well as 14 Mystical Fire PP. Make sure Suicune is either asleep or burned at this point, to rule out another Will-O-Wisp.
- Go back to Salamence on Mystical Fire 15; Sub on Wisp; Dragon Dance on Mystical Fire 16; Dragon Dance again on the switch out.
-- This removes Moltres and not unimportantly its Flame Body and Lax Incense from the picture entirely by relegating it to a 3rd mon that is assured to lose as long as I still have a Suicune or a fresh Scizor alive when the other two have gone down.
- Use Tyranitar or Articuno to get the third Dragon Dance that's needed to one-shot Zapdos later. Tyranitar may break Salamence's Sub but without hax items on either Tyranitar or Zapdos you don't need it anymore, and if Articuno hits a Sheer Cold as you miss a (first-turn, therefore non-Lum-burning) Outrage simply set up another.
- win
My entirely on-topic followup point actually involves the comparison with Dragonite, which as we all know has this one reputation of being the best self-sufficient lead sweeper imaginable that noobs and veterans alike should consider as soon as they enter the Tower so surely I have no actual reason to be using Salamence instead other than "because I want to" and I totally should be swapping in Dragonite if I want to be competitive; but let's see how Dragonite is handling this instead without Substitute. The best I can do is a similar variant of Pressure stalling Hurricane, then setting up on Mystical Fire until Moltres switches out, but with Roost instead of a real way to dodge Wisp you'll end up shooting for burned +6 instead. Which in the grand scheme of things certainly isn't bad but is equivalent to +2 and not the +3 you need, and you're also without a Sub and without a Lum when the Zapdos you're probably not OHKOing comes out on a two-turn Outrage. Yes, more often than not you're still winning. But if my Scizor matchup is the legitimate headache that it is (did I mention that lead Dragonite is not beating it either) then this strat is not getting a passing grade either.
Let's talk about another one as well.
No flowchart here but the obvious idea is to set up on Tyranitar while Rest looping through Crunch PP, aided by Intimidate; -1 is guaranteed for obvious reasons, but -2 is free as well unless it throws up Stealth Rock turn 1. It's really not the worst calc in the world ever without Intimidate either:
but the obvious issue here is that Crunch is, well, Crunch, and you're not realistically tanking 12 of these without risking the following calc at least once:
You are in general not keeping these drops on Suicune, not even if they happen on the 12th Crunch because at that point Garchomp will simply 2HKO Suicune on a Bright Powder miss. Of course resetting the drops is straightforward, but since you're taking both Stealth Rock damage and a Tyranitar attack on the switch back without even burning a Rest turn it's also annoying and you don't want to do it if you can help it; and without Salamence support Suicune both needs to get out of there asap and also is taking the full blow of Tyranitar's attack on the switch back, while with the Attack drops Suicune can even afford to stay in and wait out a Rest loop without major issue.
I'm not claiming a Dragonite variant is not making it through this matchup in one piece, because realistically it still will without actually substantial bad luck; the point is just to prove the additional security blanket that Intimidate provides and also that "well this calc is still safe even without" can turn out to be very short sighted in practice. Or heck now that I think of it take even the Titus matchup, where without the Intimidate drop Suicune just dies, and you need to instantly pivot to the "Rampardos crits Cune" scenario, which doesn't even work without Jolly Dragonite to emulate Salamence's Speed advantage and the resulting actually awful power loss in other matchups. Either that or an alternative strat where you sack Dragonite instead, which works but also easily leaves you in a position where you're a single Honch crit away from losing. The Intimidate buffer is just kind of difficult to explain properly with examples when e.g. Dragonite certainly still has some ways to manoeuvre through otherwise Intimidate-heavy matchups like Tyrell's Mamoswine and it's very much a practice over theory thing, but hopefully these examples are at least somewhat relevant.
I'm just rambling here, but with this streak Salamence now has Dragonite either basically tied or very convincingly beat on the leaderboard in like every generation except BW (where tmk Salamence hasn't really been explored at all). I think it really is still so easy for real to underrate Intimidate even with everything team Marathon and team Growl and whatever people have done in the Tree proving how seriously it needs to be taken, and in general it ties back to just finding outs. The big thing Intimidate has over Multiscale is that it also enables teammates, so it inherently adds a lot more depth to a team than an ability that certainly does some incredible things but stays comparatively linear in the end. There is absolutely no way to substantiate this more without a very thorough comparison of both teams with a breakdown of how the respective abilities would affect not only preview matchups but also ability to bounce back from hax, which I am not sure is entirely productive or even feasible; it's just, I feel the thing that makes good teams great is not the overall quality of their plan A but just how much hidden potential they have to drag out, and believe me there can be a lot of that. It's how a team not even myself had too much faith in is still remembered in 2k24 because it managed to do things like fully set up a SubDD Gyarados vs Taunt + Hypnosis Crobat by PP stalling it with a Gliscor of all things (sorry if I sound like I'm tooting my own horn too much but for obvious reasons this is the team where I have most examples handy off the top of my head, and I hope this is the one piece of my legacy here that I am actually allowed to own anyways). And no that was not a security overkill flex when the alternative was still ending up with a +0 Aegislash vs a team that probably has a Fire- or Dark-type in the back. Teams become great when they have the tools to generate arrows in their quivers you'd never expect to exist, and 20 functional arrows are always better than 10 incredible ones when it comes to having outs. And I just don't care how difficult they are to discover. It's so amazing to find out.
In the spirit of that, I'm also dropping a sample of my lead notes here to show how I handle some other tricky and also standard matchups to give a proper feel for how the team plays. Not publicising all the secrets of the universe this time but of course lmk if there's any in particular that you want to know my strats for!
Immediate Outrage--Garchomp's Outrage is a roll, so it will usually SD first and kill Salamence turn 2. Bring out Scizor, set up your own SD on Garchomp's continued Outrage, BP to take out Garchomp and also the followup Togekiss or Latios. Use Suicune to Pressure stall opposing Suicune's attacking moves, and use Scizor to finish the job. If Garchomp attacks directly, the strategy doesn't change substantially, just 2HKO Garchomp with +2 BP instead; with double Rough Skin damage crits may be fatal here esp on a two-turn Outrage followed up by EQ, but barring those the Intimidate drop means you're still quite safe, and "it almost never attacks directly anyways".
Dragon Dance while absorbing an initial Will-O-Wisp, Sub because there's no reason not to and it rules out Venusaur coming in while sun is up, the dragon comes out second so it's mostly straightforward from here; either you sweep outright with Scizor coming in last to pick off Shiftry, or (in a scenario where Ninetales-3 attacks your Sub as it goes up then Wisps again as it's knocked down to Sash) Scizor can set up an SD on Outrage-locked Dragonite for the clean.
Use Suicune to break Sturdy (with Ice Beam) to avoid Metal Burst fun times and proceed to Pressure stall Stone Edge, set up Scizor for the sweep.
Spam Earthquake until Skarmory set up Stealth Rock; then, continually switch in Salamence and Scizor to sack them asap. Make sure to only switch them if they have been hit by Rock Tomb first, in order to disincentivise continued Rock Tomb PP wasting and make sure it uses Whirlwind instead; if they still outspeed Skarmory, use EQ or SD instead, and never keep Suicune in until it's the last mon standing. From that point go for a mono countersweep by setting up as many Calm Minds as you can while, if need be, adding in a Rest to make sure Suicune is healthy when the loop is over; if the first turns have gone as planned, you should have 8-9 turns so 5-6 boosts will be fine. Use Scald as Skarmory switches out and continually attack to try and win the battle from here.
Go to Scizor, click SD, if Espeon is still in at this point click SD again. If it Baton Passes to Raikou (either on or after the second SD), finish it with X-Scissor + Bullet Punch, break Cloyster's Sash with Bullet Punch; if Cloyster boosted then BP again to take it out after which Espeon is easy, if it took out Scizor directly then have Suicune handle it instead. If Espeon Baton Passes to Raikou on the first SD, then do the same thing while presumably sacking Scizor and have +1 Salamence take over Scizor's role. If Blaziken comes in instead, immediately go back to Salamence to take it out, and go back to Scizor to handle Clefable with Bullet Punch spam (clean 2HKO once Reflect runs out).
Dragon Dance, Sub if it doesn't boost, keep doing so until it sets up Belly Drum or otherwise is in Earthquake range. Go to Suicune once Kingdra comes out and use Pressure to set up on it and PP stall it until it switches out; this way you get two relatively clean shots at Zapdos rather than instantly being in a losing position on a Brightpowder miss (esp if you only get a single DD on Politoed so Kingdra outspeeds and you at least don't get to face Zapdos with an intact Sub).
Go to Scizor, set up on weak Kangaskhan attacks while using Roost to stay healthy, just sweep from this point since +6 BP takes out Charizard.
Set up Suicune on Registeel, it's weak and between wasted turns you get decisively ahead with boosts very quickly. Don't boost all the way to +6, +4 to minimise crit opportunities for Registeel is fine since Scald + Ice Beam is a KO on Registeel as is and is safer anyways in the likely event of a resist switch to Cradily, and it also does not make a worthwhile difference in terms of KO odds vs Scizor and Cradily.
Likely 2HKO on Slowking with +0 Outrage; go to Scizor to take out Granbull with +0 Bullet Punch, use Suicune to Pressure stall Vaporeon. Slowking needs both back-to-back low rolls on Outrage and Psychic hax to defeat Salamence; in this case, use Scizor to finish it off and chip Granbull and have Suicune close out the deal.
Sack Salamence to Ice Beam, take out Starmie with X-Scissor + BP. You have enough options from this point but since Scizor will be in Fake Out + whatever range but not in just whatever range atp, the go-to is bounce Fake Out off Suicune, Scald twice (or once if you crit or burn), go back to Scizor to finish it off with BP, go back to Suicune on Articuno, Pressure stall + set up on it and 2HKO it during a Rest loop.
Go to Suicune on Ice Beam, go to Scizor on Psychic, BP KO, use Suicune to take out Regirock, also use Suicune to take out Skarmory but once Drill Peck PP is gone you have the option of switch-stalling it down as well if you haven't been able to hit through Sand-Attack / Double Team.
DD once on Honchkrow (defaults to twave), Sub twice after if it actually uses twave to make sure you're in Claydol-3 range and don't get stuck vs Venu after a two-turn Outrage. Outrage to KO, will almost always OHKO Claydol-2 atp as well at which point Metagross is handled by Suicune or Scizor without significant trouble. Have Suicune handle Claydol-3; +2 is enough since it wins vs Venu no matter the moves it picks (Ice Beam + fresh Bullet Punch KO if it uses Sleep Powder, simple Ice Beam 2HKO if it uses Giga Drain).
Sub to avoid Flamethrower burns and boost; two DDs are enough to win, just use Earthquake to make sure Blissey's Sub is broken first.
Go to Suicune, use Pressure to stall all the opposing Suicune's attacking PP while getting to +6 yourself, hit the switch-in once it runs out, take down the other backup as well and use Scizor or Salamence to take down Suicune.
Dragon Dance (and Sub on Latias-5 if you can get away with it); this should be a clean sweep on the Latias-5 variant where Scizor or Suicune can finish the job on Mamoswine, a fully clean sweep on the Latias-3 variant if you manage to tank Dragon Pulse, and opportunity for a +2 Scizor sweep if you don't.
Actually stay in with Salamence to sack it while knocking Electivire down to its Sash (tanks -1 ice punch bc lol evire), set up an SD with Scizor while Electivire goes down to Wild Charge recoil. Against the Staraptor variant, win; against the Machamp variant, go to Suicune on CC, Scald while tanking a second CC, if Suicune survives actually click Calm Mind to sack it so Scizor doesn't have to switch into Cresselia. Either way use Scizor to finish off Machamp through CC Def drops, defeat Cresselia.
Use Substitute to set up to +2 on Articuno's Sheer Colds, sweep.
Go to Suicune, Scald for chip while tanking tbolt, go to Scizor to finish off with BP. Go to Salamence as Swampert comes out; if Suicune is out of Waterfall crit range, go to Suicune and Rest, otherwise use Scizor for Intimidate stalling until it goes down and gives the free switch to Suicune instead. Either way use Intimidate switches and Pressure to get rid of PP and heal Suicune back up, set up Salamence to +2 and a Sub when Swampert is worn down enough, Outrage kill Swampert and P-Z, vs the Quagsire variant use the usual Quagsire strat.
Sub, DD, Outrage. Sequences from here depend on Drifblim's moves and whether it successfully and disastrously passes a Minimize boost, but chomp/ttar/latios get shredded and Pressure stalling is a backup plan vs Moltres.
Double +0 outrage followed by +0 X-Scissor takes down Umbreon, Weezing is next so set up Suicune on it and win.
Actually DD on Tyranitar because it doesn't have a guaranteed KO and will tend to DD itself, take down it + Drapion after and use Suicune to take down Weezing if Salamence can't.
Earthquake to knock Blaziken down to Focus Sash, Outrage to catch Gyarados on the switch (pretty much always happens), which will then take down Mence. Send out Scizor, get a Swords Dance boost on Gyarados before finishing it off in case Latios comes out. If it's the Suicune variant instead, Pressure stall its attacking moves and use Scizor to finish the job after.
Use Intimidate switches and Suicune's Pressure to get Mamoswine to -6 Atk and out of Earthquake PP, set up Suicune, sweep.
Go to Scizor and take down Lickilicky, then go to Suicune on Flygon (or back to Mence on Zapdos-1 for a +1 Outrage KO). Set up Calm Minds on locked Flamethrower, but make sure to not attack until it's stalled out entirely to potentially get an extra shot at hitting Zapdos on the switch.
Click Dragon Dance on Final Gambit (or sometimes U-turn but it does not alter the strategy to an extent you can't figure it out anymore). For Medicham, bounce Fake Out off Suicune and just Scald, and use Scizor to finish the job; if Garchomp comes out then knock it down to its Sash and finish it + Gardevoir with Scizor.
Go to Suicune, Pressure stall Zen Headbutt after using the first two turns for Calm Mind boosting or Scald fishing. Just Rest loop constantly until Zen Headbutt is gone because flinches are a bitch. You don't want to boost too far after either to avoid gambling with Meteor Mash boosts; +4 is enough to one-shot both Metagross (provided you used at least one Scald before the first Rest loop) and Dragonite. If Slaking comes out instead then have Scizor handle it. For Quagsire, just use Suicune to PP stall it, but also make sure to Scald burn it first so that it'll use up Recover PP right after Whirlpool is gone, and once it's done take it down with like seven Scalds or so.
DD once, take out Raikou; if Entei comes out second, it's the Snorlax variant and you can sweep, if Suicune comes out instead use your own Suicune to Pressure stall its attacking moves, take out Entei on the switch, and use Scizor to finish off the job. If Raikou crits you pretty much just lose unless Scizor crits back in an X-Scissor + Bullet Punch combo.
Go to Suicune; two Rest loops get rid of Close Combat PP entirely. Set up and sweep.
Sub twice to get Milotic into +0 Outrage range, get revenge killed by Latios, finish the deal with +2 Bullet Punch.
Go to Suicune, don't focus on attacking it at all and just boost/potentially Rest to keep Suicune healthy until Perish count hits 1, switch back out after. Set up Suicune on Kingdra/Scizor, on Registeel just boost with Salamence, if it Explodes go back to Suicune.
Sack Salamence against the lead, use Scizor to revenge kill, go to Suicune on Fire Punch, spam Scald to take down Charizard and use Scizor to close out the game.
Sub; Lapras-2 will reveal itself pretty much immediately, and getting to +2 for a sweep won't be too hard. For Lapras-4 still keep subbing down, since it does randomly toss out Sheer Cold sometimes so you can still fish for a miss there. Overall you'll realistically be going for a KO with Outrage followed by +2 X-Scissor though, after which you can also take out Aerodactyl and weaken Electivire enough to neuter it as a threat for Suicune.
Dragon Dance; against Breloom-5, Sub to dodge Counter, Earthquake to break Sash, sweep at +2 to take out Breloom with Earthquake and avoid risking a two-turn Outrage. Breloom-3 will use Rock Tomb so use the Attack boost to secure the OHKO, after Togekiss revenge kills Salamence use Ice Beam + Bullet Punch to safely remove Togekiss, sack Scizor while removing Infernape's Sash and win with Suicune.
Use Sub on Salamence to rule out Thunder Wave on the switch to Suicune, switch and boost. You get two surefire boosts before you get paralysed and feel free to squeeze in a 3rd too because it spends its first couple turns spamming Double Team for the most part, but overall make sure to use Rest as much as possible for a loop of use Calm Mind on wake turn -> use Rest immediately after to keep dodging Thunder Wave. You'll realistically end up forcing it out through PP stalling Air Slash, which is fine, just sweep after.
Go to Scizor, Roost stall Draco Meteor PP while setting up a triple SD and keeping Scizor's HP at full. Use Bullet Punch after Flygon's eighth Draco Meteor to (hopefully) 2HKO Starmie or Infernape on the switch and clean up after; if Flygon stays in, still have Scizor handle Starmie because full HP is enough even on a Hydro Pump crit, but have Suicune handle the Infernape variant instead to keep Scizor alive for any Slaking Giga Impact crit bs.
Dragon Dance as Latias uses either Calm Mind or a weak move, KO Latias. Latios will come up second if Noelle brings it and Salamence will right through it, but Togekiss will come out second on the Ninetales variant. The idea here is to make sure Ninetales comes out on Scizor so it'll lock into Flamethrower not Solar Beam while keeping in mind that Bullet Punch is not a guaranteed KO on Togekiss; so, send out Suicune first to chip Togekiss with Ice Beam, go to Scizor to finish it off, sack Scizor to get Suicune back in safely once Ninetales comes out (either after Togekiss goes down or on a resist switch which could theoretically happen I suppose).
In any case I have not exactly been grinding all the time since my previous post. I am at about exactly 1000 non-consecutive wins right now, and the 109 I put up earlier technically wasn't my PB anymore, in the sense that I actually tied it end December. The loss was vs Ellis:
The overall strategy is one of the examples outlined in the hidetag above, but the tl;dr is sacking both Salamence and Scizor to Stealth Rock and Rock Tomb to position Suicune for a 1v3 countersweep, with some additional nuances to maximise Skarmory's remaining Rock Tomb PP and thus buy as many setup and potential Rest turns as possible. After Skarmory runs out of Rock Tomb, it switches out, so you get to target either Gengar or Magnezone on the switch, after which a healthy Suicune also wins vs Dragonite or Cloyster, and Skarmory is a sitting duck of course. I did exactly that, after which I am of course terrified of Magnezone's Sturdy + potential crit Thunderbolt, and knowing that Ice Beam avoids knocking it into Custap range, I click that move over Scald. It's the Gengar variant instead, Cursed Body triggers on Ice Beam, and Dragonite is actually smart and boosts for the 2HKO not the OHKO, so I don't have enough turns to beat it with Scald. Oops, game over. Now this did not bother me as much as it maybe should, because honestly these odds were in pretty solid "I can't even be mad about this lol" range, but a) I chose the wrong eventuality to rule out since odds of this scenario happening were actually substantially bigger than the Magnezone crit tbolt (especially since it would also have to dodge a Scald burn to even get a shot at pulling it off), b) I kinda sorta failed to process that the 6+ Rock Tombs I'd tanked with Suicune rendered the whole avoid Custap range line of thought kinda moot to begin with. Don't get me wrong, figuring out this matchup was beyond satisfying with how insane it seemed at first and how much I had to think outside the box for it. But the loss also was a blunt reminder that no this tower really does not allow you to miss even a single beat, and thankfully I managed to let it push me even further into fully solving this team rather than beat me down. This loss happened on New Year's Eve, and I have slowed down a lot since (too much stuff to do, and gaming wise Persona 5 also is the kind of game that takes multiple months to complete even if it's the only game you're playing at a time), but I kept playing a few sets on and off on the side, and this is where it got us.
It's about time to wrap this up; and so that does bring the "prove Suizomence's potential" mission to an end at 253 wins, and I'm at peace with this, possibly more than any other streak I've lost before. This is going to sound a bit battle facility player unworthy, but between scenarios like "lead specskou crit and I lose" scenarios existing and the statistical guarantee of Scizor or Natalia outplaying me at some point down the line, it was always gonna be cut short at some point before true "this facility has been solved" numbers, so in practical terms the goal was to just well. learn how to use the team so well that most of what was left to do was outrun those statistical scenarios. I don't mean this in a nihilistic way; rather, that I felt I'd actually gotten as close to completing my mission of playing the team to its full potential as I could expect of myself, which made for an incredibly zen playing experience where I knew I was gonna end with a number I should be happy with, I was never gonna go the full distance on the leaderboard anyway, and all I had to do was just keep using the strats I'd spent all this time working out until the point where the Tower was gonna tell me "okay mari that's as far as you'll go" and that was gonna be fine. In other words, once I overtook my old record, the mission became threefold:
- get a significant improvement over 109 so that I have a proper number to go with the new strategies I want to post about;
- beat 200, and go for 210+ while I'm at it and by extension top 3 on the leaderboard;
- lose in a not stupid way.
Speaking from experience, the last point here is obviously the hardest lol, but overall I think this is a fair loss that I cannot blame myself for and where I genuinely ran into the team's limits even with the unexpected amount of depth it has. So ye we may have squeezed out this team's potential for real by now, and it's time to check up the leaderboard balance. It was a bit depressing to see the leaderboard as empty as it was when I finally first clicked into this thread some point last year, and yea it does make it pretty unclear what this number is truly worth when that's the case + the streaks below me have been inactivity disqualified rather than actually lost. It's alleviated because my prior statement of trying to take this team as far as it can go rather than climb the leaderboard per se is still true, and in that sense I also care more about the raw 253 number here than the third place.
But of course I cannot be expected to beat people that aren't challenging me to begin with, and I am not gonna brush over this top 3 placement now that it has actually happened. I really did feel like I had stuff to prove going into this, or at least a reputation to fail to uphold; for all my history with the Maison, I never was able to shake the feeling that the power level in that facility is low enough that one can actually fully solve it (hence the comparatively absurd numbers people reached there) and that I would fall flat on my face in facilities where finding teams able to cover "enough" was gonna be a lot more brutal. If there's anything that this record means to me, it's that yes I can actually hold my own in a tower with a far more brutal difficulty level as well.
And of course I owed it to the team as well. I wouldn't consider this an outright copycat streak, but I've been upfront about how the team came to be and it wouldn't be fair to call it entirely my own work either (yes I know I probably could have put them together myself as well but I can't rewrite history!), so yes it would have been pretty cringe to submit a number to the leaderboard that's not worthy of Suizorus's legacy. I was unsure if the previous record was (barely) good enough for this but figured it at least didn't suck and that the story of the team was worth sharing. No such worries this time though, I think the other records still provide enough perspective overall that yes this is a team that can seriously contend with this Tower, and that I actually managed to prove this. I will probably keep playing with this team on and off sometimes because I like having fun, but I do not think I can expect myself to shoot any higher than this. If it happens I'll let you know; but overall rn I'm gonna try to find unexpected depths in other teams to explore. Hf all!